₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
The Doctor is NOT “Dr Samuel Johnson”. Double check that and revert back here to thank me. Lol.

What you tag as “historical dishonesty” is the result of your lack of knowledge regarding what constitutes a historical conclusion.

Samuel Johnson isn’t trained as a historian. As you’ve rightly put he was professionally trained to be head of church — Rev. His efforts on the Yorubas’s history can best make him in strict terms a “chronicler”, etc.

In other words, a person who goes around collecting accounts into writing. He is not trained to separate the wheat from the chaff, and even when he attempts that, he most likely gets it wrong.

As such, it is the job of the historians (which they have done brilliantly) to separate the wheat from the chaff and put forward a professional submission and conclusion.

In other words, all the talks of Idi — Biblical scrolls or Koranic parchments; Gogobir; Oranmiyan attempting to avenge his father in Mecca; etc. are all a recent fall out from the 1800s.

These are narratives which emerged in the 1800s, with their roots in the now debunked presumption of Sultan Bello that Yorubas are from Mecca.

As at the time when Sultan Bello was relating his story (and presumption) to Captain Clapperton in the North; Clapperton’s boys were receiving the original Yoruba account from the Yorubas in the South.

As such, historians have com to know that whatever S. Bello was relating was not gotten from the Yorubas themselves because the Yorubas of the same period (i.e. early 1800 as well) have something else to say as documented by the Lander brothers.

By the way, I have a copy of Sultan M. Bello’s writing as translated into English by Captain Clapperton whom he gave a copy to when Clapperton visited his court. So, I’m not sure where you got the idea from that no one has seen the account of Sultan Bello.

——————
All in all what you must go home with from everything so far is that even your almighty Oyibo standard agree that oral tradition is a valid source of historical evidence — of course provided that the job of scrutinizing the tradition is left to those trained to do it, viz. the professional historians.

In any case, your Oyinbos agree that oral tradition is a valid source of historical evidence. See here again for a gentle reminder.


Peace!
Cc: babaolofin

MightySparrow:
This should not be taken with sentiment, though, you may be emotionally attached to your own bias. Yet, the oyinbos are more organized and meticulous.blacks are not. The only authority in Yoruba history is IFA. It is full of fairy tales.

samuk:
I honestly don't understand all the insults and emotional outbursts.

MightySparrow:
Insult on whom? I just say my own opinion that African's oral history is not reliable and that history has biases depending on the writer.

samuk:
Sorry, the comment wasn't met for you. I mean the insults I have been receiving from TAO11 and the other Yoruba brother.

Perhaps I should have made my comment clearer.

You have been on point and I align with your position. I am in complete agreement with all you have said.

samuk:
Please read how Hausas gave the Yoruba the story of Oduduwa, don't believe me, just read TAO11 account below.

TAO11, you can continue to argue with yourself. The readers have eyes.

Cc: gomojam, Amujale, macof, babtoundey, scoles0, Balogunodua, SaintBeehot, reallest, talktrue1234, Gratefulheart1, DenreleDave, Newton85

TAO11:
If you had bothered to go down some two more pages, then you would have found where S. Johnson continued and clarified that the oldest known origin of this Middle-East story is from Sultan Bello of Sokoto.

On this, Rev. Samuel Johnson writes (quoting Capt. Clapperton’s extract of Sultan Bello’s story) and I quote here:

“The only written record we have on this subject is that of the Sultan Belo of Sokoto, the founder of that city, the most learned if not the most powerful of the Fulani sovereigns that ever bore rule in the Soudan.

Capt. Clapperton (Travels and Discoveries in Northern and Central Africa, 1822—1824) made the acquaintance of this monarch. From a large geographical and historical work by him, Capt. Clapperton made a copious extract, from which the following is taken :-- “Yarba is an extensive province containing rivers, forests, sands and mountains, as also a great many wonderful and extraordinary things. In it, the talking green bird called babaga (parrot) is found.”

“By the side of this province there is an anchorage or harbor for the ships of the Christians, who used to go there and purchase slaves. These slaves were exported from our country and sold to the people of Yarba, who resold them to the Christians.”

“The inhabitants of this province (Yarba) it is supposed originated from the remnant of the children of Canan, who were of the tribe of Nimrod. The cause of their establishment in the West of Africa was, as it is stated, in consequence of their being driven by Yar-rooba, son of Kahtan, out of Arabia to the Western Coast between Egypt and Abyssinia. From that spot they advanced into the interior of Africa, till they reach Yarba where they fixed their residence. On their way they left in every place they stopped at, a tribe of their own people. Thus it is supposed that all the tribes of the Soudan who inhabit the mountains are originated from them as also are the inhabitants of Ya-ory. Upon the whole, the people of Yarba are nearly of the same description as those of Noofee (Nupe)*”“

~ Rev. Samuel Johnson, “The History of the Yorubas”, Completed 1897, Published 1921, pp. 5-6.

MightySparrow:
This should not be taken with sentiment, though, you may be emotionally attached to your own bias. Yet, the oyinbos are more organized and meticulous.blacks are not. The only authority in Yoruba history is IFA. It is full of fairy tales.

MightySparrow:
Sorry o, in the whole story, my take is, ' there is a fellow called Oduduwa. He became the progenitor of two great empires as recognized and agreed by the concerned. The rest of the story is unreliable.

samuk:
Oduduwa is widely accepted today as the common ancestor of most Yoruba monarchs/people and the Oba of Benin.

Questions:

1. Are there documented historical origin of Oduduwa.

2. Is there a documented historical evidence to back up Oduduwa ancestry of the aforementioned monarchs?

3. Was Oduduwa a mythical or historical figure in Yoruba history.

4. When did Oduduwa first appear in Benin documented history?

5. Do all Yoruba monarchs accept Oduduwa ancestry.

6. Was Oduduwa story historical or a political creation to first unite the Yoruba people and then Benin and Yoruba people.

Documented historical origin of Oduduwa:


The earliest known documented history of the origin of Oduduwa was told by Sultan Bello around the years 1822 - 1824. In that narrative, Sultan Bello told the story of how early Yoruba migrated from the middle east/Saudi Arabia.

This documented historical origin of Oduduwa remain so till 1897 when the first indigenous Yoruba author Samuel Johnson in his, the history of the Yoruba, argued that Oduduwa migrated from Egypt rather than Saudi Arabia, his arguments was based on the fact that he found no evidence that Saudi Arabia had an Oduduwa in their history.

The documented origin of Oduduwa remained that he migrated from the middle east, Saudi Arabia or Egypt until the 1970s.

In the 1970s, the Benin people through their monarch told the world that Oduduwa was the banished Benin prince Ekaladerhan who found his way to Ife and established the kingdom. Benin went on to date the period to the 1100s AD.

Few decades after Benin claim of Oduduwa being a Benin prince, the first documented Yoruba account of the origin of Oduduwa outside the middle eastern countries of Saudi Arabia and Egypt appeared. From the 1990s to 2010, some Yoruba authors claimed that Oduduwa was originally a native of Ife.

For almost 200 years since the history of Oduduwa was first written down as narrated by Sultan Bello, Oduduwa was believed to have migrated from the middle east, numerous Yoruba historians, writers and authors have always traced Oduduwa to the middle east until recently.

Less than two decades after Sultan Bello narrative of Oduduwa being from the middle east a Yoruba missionary Ajayi Crowder returned to Nigeria and started his missionary works in the 1840.

Since the 1840s, the Yorubas have been writing about themselves and did they claim Oduduwa to be a native of Ife, it will take almost 200 years before some revisionist will argue that Oduduwa was originally a native of Ife.

Documented evidence of Oduduwa ancestry of most Yoruba monarchs and Oba of Benin:


Until 1897 when the Yoruba historian Samuel Johnson wrote his, the history of the Yoruba, the is no documented earlier indigenous Yoruba accounts that traces all Yoruba Obas to Oduduwa.

The Ijebus is believed to have come in contact with the Europeans in the 1500s, the Alaafin of Oyo received his first European visitor in 1824 and there are hearsay European accounts of Oyo dating back to the 1700s, in all these accounts, I haven't seen any evidence were the various Yoruba tribes themselves claim Oduduwa as a common ancestor until late 1800s.

Oduduwa, a mythical or historical figure.

Early Yoruba historians such as C. C. Law in his book did confirm that there were Yoruba oral tradition that claim Oduduwa to be a myth rather than a historical figure. Their are Yoruba accounts that claimed Oduduwa to be a female deity.

Throughout the almost 200 years since the history of Oduduwa began in 1824, Oduduwa have variously been traced to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Benin prince, a native of Ife and Yoruba female deity.

When did Oduduwa first appear in Benin history

There is not a single historical evidence of Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife being mentioned in the over 400 years of eyewitness documented history of Benin until the fall of the old Benin empire in 1897.

Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife only appear for the first time in Benin history after the fall of Benin in 1897.


Do all Yoruba monarchs accept Oduduwa ancestry:

The Awujale of Ijebu is one of the notable Yoruba monarchs who do not subscribe to the Oduduwa/Ife common ancestry. The Awujale traces the migration of his people to Sudan.

Another notable Yoruba monarch that doesn't believe in the Oduduwa common ancestry of Yoruba Obas and people is Fredrick Obateru Akinruntan, the traditional ruler of Ugbo Kingdom, a town in Ilaje Local Government, Ondo State. He is an oil magnate and founder of Obat Oil, one of Nigeria's largest and leading privately held oil companies.

Oba Obateru argues that Oduduwa is was a foreign to Ife from Benin.

Was Oduduwa story historical or a political creation to first unite the Yoruba people and then Benin and Yoruba people.

TAO11:
(1) Europeans are believed to have visited the Nigeria coastal areas from around the 1470s/1480s.

(2) These Europeans documented virtually everything they observed/heard, including details from meetings.

(3) These Europeans made occasional visits to Benin kingdom itself to apparently meet the Benin kings.

(4) Recent Benin stories tell us that the following have ruled Benin from the beginning till circa 1848:

Eweka I
Uwuakhuahen
Henmihen
Ewedo
Oguola
Edoni
Udagbedo
Ohen
Egbeka
Orobiru
Uwaifiokun
Ewuare I
Ezoti
Olua
Ozolua
Esigie
Orhogbua
Ehengbuda
Ohuan
Ohenzae
Akenkpaye
Akengbedo
Ore-Oghene
Ewuakpe
Ozuere
Akenzua I
Eresoyen
Akengbuda
Obanosa
Ogbebo
Osemwende

(5) Interestingly, none of these names feature as king of Benin in any writing of those Europeans.

(6) In fact, not even the red-highlighted names whom the Europeans are supposed to have met in person.

(7) Yet, from 1897 (and onward) some of these names began to feature in Benin stories/writings.

(8 ) Why didn’t the Europeans (who were on ground in Benin) document a thing on the above-listed names?

(9) A Benin m0r0n wants his fellow-morons to believe Oduduwa didn’t exist since his name isn’t written.

(10) Yet, the same Benin m0r0n (& his fellow morons) want to believe that the above-listed supposed Benin heroes existed — despite no single record of them.

(11) All these is despite that Oduduwa is supposed to have fluorished at a time when no European (or any writer) visited the Nigeria area.

(12) Also, all these is despite the fact that the above-listed names (the red-highlighted ones) are supposed to have flourished when Europeans visited them.

(13) IF Bini morons must exhibit natural ret@rdation, they should at least be ret@rded with consistency.

Peace!

Cc: MightySparrow, babaolofin

TAO11:
I’m pretty sure rEaDeRs who hAvE EyEs actually read in full, unlike @samuk. Buhaha They know not to run along with half education.

Having said that, Sultan Bello’s presumption as per the roots of the Yorubas was debunked right then and there in the early 1800s by the Landers who also in the early 1800s collected and published the account of the Yorubas’s roots as received from the Yorubas.

Peace.
Cc: babaolofin

TAO11:
Fair enough.

Although you are not a historian, your take is quite as that of held by historians on the same subject.

Another thing we could both agree on is that @samuk won’t like your ‘take’ despite its reasonableness.

Peace!

TAO11:
Eeeyah!

So after disgracing yourself to stupor, your best bet is to now point to a teacher, right?. LMAO!

Well, never point to a teacher while knowing fully well that you’ve only taken half education from them.

I did make my statement on how the story of Ooduwa from Mecca is rooted in the presuppositions of Sultan Bello on the origin of Yorubas in general.

I also did clarify the context by giving an actual quote of Sultan Bello’s actual words, and how S. Johnson had keyed into the general narrative as all shown below:


You ran with the first part (i.e. my statement), and left out the actual quotation; hence your self-destruction of insisting that Sultan Bello wrote specifically about Oduduwa.

Sorry, you brought the disgrace upon yourself lad. You are the real manifestation of the famous saying that: “Half knowledge is worse than ignorance”.

The disgrace on you can’t be reversed sweety. Going forward, make it a duty to fully read what you spend time typing replies to. It makes you appear less dumb, and saves you humiliation like this.

I’m pretty sure rEaDeRs who hAvE EyEs actually read in full, unlike @samuk. Buhaha They know not to run along with half education.

Having said that, Sultan Bello’s presumption as per the roots of the Yorubas was debunked right then and there in the early 1800s by the Landers who also in the early 1800s collected and published the account of the Yorubas’s roots as received from the Yorubas.


—————-

So, having admitted to have been humiliated vis-a-via your insistence that Sultan Bello wrote specifically on Oduduwa [and being from Mecca], I noticed that you have been avoiding the two simply questions shown below:

The following names are not found or mentioned in over 400 years Benin written European eyewitness historical accounts:

Eweka I
Uwuakhuahen
Henmihen
Ewedo
Oguola
Edoni
Udagbedo
Ohen
Egbeka
Orobiru
Uwaifiokun
Ewuare I
Ezoti
Olua
Ozolua
Esigie
Orhogbua
Ehengbuda
Ohuan
Ohenzae
Akenkpaye
Akengbedo
Ore-Oghene
Ewuakpe
Ozuere
Akenzua I
Eresoyen
Akengbuda
Obanosa
Ogbebo
Osemwende

So the questions for you remain:
(1) Do you likewise agree that the above-listed names of supposed Benin kings have nothing to do with Benin kingdom (based on your autistic standard of writing)?


(2) Do you likewise agree that the above-listed names are mere fairytales that were created by revisionists after 1897 (based on your autistic standard of writing)?

Peace.
Cc: babaolofin

samuk:
Below is the video were the current Ooni claim that all Ooni are from Egyptian Osiris lineage and they become deified as Osiri when they die.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxZAXb0XVwI

samuk:
[s]This is turning out to be one of your worst outings and defence.

So it's the landers brothers from Europe that debunked Sultan Bello narrative of Yoruba coming from Mecca.

Have the Yoruba been writing since the early 1800s? The answer is yes. Where did Yoruba themselves debunked Sultan Bello narrative?

TAO11, please tell the readers when Yoruba change their story of coming from the middle east?

As we debate, vast majority of Yoruba still hold on to their middle east origin even the current Ooni told his white audience in Europe that when the Ooni dies, they become Egyptian god Osiris.

Ooni, the spiritual leader of Yoruba is still fixated with Egypt and TAO11 wants the readers to believe her cock and bull stories.

TAO11, if you must be taken seriously, produce references to when indigenous Yoruba writers first said Oduduwa was a native of Ife. I have already told you that the earliest I could find if 1990s to 2010, nearly 200 years since Sultan Bello first gave Yoruba the story.[/s]

samuk:
Below is the video were the current Ooni claim that all Ooni are from Egyptian Osiris lineage and they become deified as Osiri when they die.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxZAXb0XVwI

samuk:
Oduduwa is widely accepted today as the common ancestor of most Yoruba monarchs/people and the Oba of Benin.

Questions:

1. Are there documented historical origin of Oduduwa.

2. Is there a documented historical evidence to back up Oduduwa ancestry of the aforementioned monarchs?

3. Was Oduduwa a mythical or historical figure in Yoruba history.

4. When did Oduduwa first appear in Benin documented history?

5. Do all Yoruba monarchs accept Oduduwa ancestry.

6. Was Oduduwa story historical or a political creation to first unite the Yoruba people and then Benin and Yoruba people.

Documented historical origin of Oduduwa:


The earliest known documented history of the origin of Oduduwa was told by Sultan Bello around the years 1822 - 1824. In that narrative, Sultan Bello told the story of how early Yoruba migrated from the middle east/Saudi Arabia.

This documented historical origin of Oduduwa remain so till 1897 when the first indigenous Yoruba author Samuel Johnson in his, the history of the Yoruba, argued that Oduduwa migrated from Egypt rather than Saudi Arabia, his arguments was based on the fact that he found no evidence that Saudi Arabia had an Oduduwa in their history.

The documented origin of Oduduwa remained that he migrated from the middle east, Saudi Arabia or Egypt until the 1970s.

In the 1970s, the Benin people through their monarch told the world that Oduduwa was the banished Benin prince Ekaladerhan who found his way to Ife and established the kingdom. Benin went on to date the period to the 1100s AD.

Few decades after Benin claim of Oduduwa being a Benin prince, the first documented Yoruba account of the origin of Oduduwa outside the middle eastern countries of Saudi Arabia and Egypt appeared. From the 1990s to 2010, some Yoruba authors claimed that Oduduwa was originally a native of Ife.

For almost 200 years since the history of Oduduwa was first written down as narrated by Sultan Bello, Oduduwa was believed to have migrated from the middle east, numerous Yoruba historians, writers and authors have always traced Oduduwa to the middle east until recently.

Less than two decades after Sultan Bello narrative of Oduduwa being from the middle east a Yoruba missionary Ajayi Crowder returned to Nigeria and started his missionary works in the 1840.

Since the 1840s, the Yorubas have been writing about themselves and didn't claim Oduduwa to be a native of Ife, it will take almost 200 years before some revisionist will argue that Oduduwa was originally a native of Ife.

Documented evidence of Oduduwa ancestry of most Yoruba monarchs and Oba of Benin:


Until 1897 when the Yoruba historian Samuel Johnson wrote his, the history of the Yoruba, there was no documented earlier indigenous Yoruba account that traces all Yoruba Obas to Oduduwa.

The Ijebus is believed to have come in contact with the Europeans in the 1500s, the Alaafin of Oyo received his first European visitor in 1824 and there are hearsay European accounts of Oyo dating back to the 1700s, in all these accounts, I haven't seen any evidence were the various Yoruba tribes themselves claim Oduduwa as a common ancestor until late 1800s.

Oduduwa, a mythical or historical figure.

Early Yoruba historians such as C. C. Law in his book did confirm that there were Yoruba oral tradition that claim Oduduwa to be a myth rather than a historical figure. Their are Yoruba accounts that claimed Oduduwa to be a female deity.

Throughout the almost 200 years since the history of Oduduwa began in 1824, Oduduwa have variously been traced to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Benin prince, a native of Ife and Yoruba female deity.

When did Oduduwa first appear in Benin history

There is not a single historical evidence of Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife being mentioned in the over 400 years of eyewitness documented history of Benin until the fall of the old Benin empire in 1897.

Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife only appear for the first time in Benin history after the fall of Benin in 1897.


Do all Yoruba monarchs accept Oduduwa ancestry:

The Awujale of Ijebu is one of the notable Yoruba monarchs who do not subscribe to the Oduduwa/Ife common ancestry. The Awujale traces the migration of his people to Sudan.

Another notable Yoruba monarch that doesn't believe in the Oduduwa common ancestry of Yoruba Obas and people is Fredrick Obateru Akinruntan, the traditional ruler of Ugbo Kingdom, a town in Ilaje Local Government, Ondo State. He is an oil magnate and founder of Obat Oil, one of Nigeria's largest and leading privately held oil companies.

Oba Obateru argues that Oduduwa was a foreign to Ife from Benin.

Was Oduduwa story historical or a political creation to first unite the Yoruba people and then Benin and Yoruba people.

TAO11:
@Samuk’s reasoning:
I would accept the statement of the reigning Ooni even if such statement is his personal fancy which he never claimed to be an indigenous IFE narration.

What my mind is never going to accept are contrary peer-reviewed academic and scholarly statements published years before he became king and directly stated to be an indigenous IFE narration.

Cc: gomojam, talktrue1234, reallest, SaintBeehot, Balogunodua, Gratefulheart1, DenreleDave, Amujale, babtoundey.

samuk:
[s]Below is the Ooni linking Ooniship to Egyptian god Osiris and TAO11 previous comments on the video.

In TAO11 reply below, she accuses the Ooni of living in a fantasy world by linking Ooniship with Egyptian Osiris.

TAO11 is yet to provide us the date Yoruba first published a book contrary to the middle east origin of Oduduwa and Yoruba people.

She thinks insults are what wins debates.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxZAXb0XVwI[/s]

gomojam, talktrue1234, reallest, SaintBeehot, Balogunodua, Gratefulheart1, DenreleDave, Amujale, babtoundey.

TAO11:
@samuk, you must to answer this questions wey you dey run from oo

Yes, you’ve bungled on your ignorant dog-shit that S. Bello wrote about Oduduwa and that the Yorubas of the early 1800s and up till recently agree with Bello.

Now, it’s time to get up from the gutter, wipe/clean ya self up and answer the question at the end of the following information. Thanks.
—————————

The following names are not found or mentioned in over 400 years Benin written European eyewitness historical accounts:

Eweka I
Uwuakhuahen
Henmihen
Ewedo
Oguola
Edoni
Udagbedo
Ohen
Egbeka
Orobiru
Uwaifiokun
Ewuare I
Ezoti
Olua
Ozolua
Esigie
Orhogbua
Ehengbuda
Ohuan
Ohenzae
Akenkpaye
Akengbedo
Ore-Oghene
Ewuakpe
Ozuere
Akenzua I
Eresoyen
Akengbuda
Obanosa
Ogbebo
Osemwende

So the questions for you remain:
(1) Do you likewise agree that the above-listed names of supposed Benin kings have nothing to do with Benin kingdom (based on your autistic standard of writing)?


(2) Do you likewise agree that the above-listed names are mere fairytales that were created by revisionists after 1897 (based on your autistic standard of writing)?

Peace.

samuk:
You are right, the Oduduwa story is a shared fairytale between Benin and Yoruba. There are accounts of Oduduwa climbing down from heaven with chains. The current Ooni claim that when the Ooni dies, they become Egyptian god Osiris, he also claimed that the 4th Ooni lived for 400 years before becoming a deity.

Abohboy:
What makes the story of Oduduwa fake if you believe the stories in the bible? Why can someone ride on a chariot to heaven but someone cannot come down to earth on a golden chain? The current Ooni isn't very knowledgable and doesn't even serve his purpose right 98% of traditional rulers have given up on our cultural practices and history

samuk:
What makes you think I believe the stories in the bible?