₦airaland Forum

olusegxz:
Go and read what I said. As I said English may actually be your problem. A nurse what education do you have. Enlighten us.

You need to change your toxic attitude if you have any plans of working successfully outside Nigeria.
Be humble
Especially when you are not as knowledgeable as you want to think.
What you do not know is multiple what you know AND

You yo not know that you do not know but think you know it all

aribisala0:
what is dolor?

You are embarrassing yourself guy.
I apologize for my English
I hope that gives you a face saving exit
Halitosis is a diagnosis
Jaundice is a diagnosis
Homelessness is a diagnosis
Failed exams is a diagnosis

You are just a little boy in this game

Lol your reasoning is as epileptic as you are typing. Firstly you are the big boy. Lol big boy nurse.

Then I think you are clearly in the dark about what it is to actually treat a patient. And you have no training for that so I totally understand that.

Diagnosing is not a theoretical function. Even with specific symptoms you may not reach a diagnosis until all investigations are exhausted. I guess that is why nurses don't diagnose. You can treat a symptom and as a matter of fact that's what most doctors will do first, to manage the ailment.

Keep talking theory.

aribisala0:
You need to change your toxic attitude if you have any plans of working successfully outside Nigeria.
Be humble
Especially when you are not as knowledgeable as you want to think.
What you do not know is multiple what you know AND

You yo not know that you do not know but think you know it all

Wow lool. See ehn, I graduated and left Nigeria is 2011. See this man oh lol. Nairaland and thinking everyone is faceless. I have lived and practised in the UK and now in Australia. I went to the College of Medicine, University of Lagos, UCL and I have a Royal College of Surgeons fellowship in Australia. I was attracted to the topic because I did my housemanship in Ife. That is all. Now back to the topic at hand. And the unfortunate event that unfolded between the doctor and matron.

Otunbakayce:
Even physiotherapists, radiographers, med lab scientists and pharmacists are place a level higher than B.sc Nurses despite spending the same 5 years In school. "we all virtually do the same thing in preclinical" so because you did anatomy, physiology and biochemistry that means you did the same thing with medical students. Even a physiotherapy student who as well did the same thing won't spit these nonsense. This one is either a nursing student or a nursing school graduate who just enrolled for Bsc. I spent 6+ years in medical school and I am very much familiar with the Nigerian civil service system. You are clearly a student dont quote me again. When you are opportuned to travel to the UK, come and try all these nonsense here nor spit all these Rubbish.

Graduate nurses salary was recently reviewed to be at pair with their other medical graduates that spent 5yrs in university.
You need to get urself upto date.

olusegxz:
Wow lool. See ehn, I graduated and left Nigeria is 2011. See this man oh lol. Nairaland and thinking everyone is faceless. I have lived and practised in the UK and now in Australia. I went to the College of Medicine, University of Lagos, UCL and I have a royal college of surgeons fellowship in Australia. I was attracted to the topic because I did my horsemanship in Ife. That is all. And back to the topic at hand. We await the investigation of the panel and the imprisonment and disregard of duty of the doctor by the matron. Diagnosis or not.

Are you a horseman? How long have you been riding Mr English
I, as a matter of principle, do not talk about my biography but I know CMUL quite well from when Babanginda was in power by which time you might not even have been born. You should have the courage of your knowledge . You said something about Nurses writing diagnoses and when called out you started talking about English
So is it your belief that only doctors make/write diagnoses? Yes or no?

aribisala0:
Are you a horseman? How long have you been riding Mr English
I, as a matter of principle, do not talk about my biography but I know CMUL quite well from when Babanginda was in power by which time you might not even have been born. You should have the courage of your knowledge . You said something about Nurses writing diagnoses and when called out you started talking about English
So is it your belief that only doctors make/write diagnoses? Yes or no?

As a matter of fact I was already a fellow when I left Nigeria. So add 7 years of undergraduate, another 5 years of post graduate not to mention nysc, and the two years I was doing geology in OSU as it was called then before jamb finally smiled on us to enter this medicine. I think I was clearly born and maybe even almost on my way to university then. After all babangida era is not that long ago I still remember yaba under bridge and free transport and fun fare when God rescued us from those shackles.

No no and no. Not only doctors can. Other health professionals can in their own role. But while I stand to be corrected I am not totally sure about if Nurses in Nigeria can. But hearing from Debola et al, I am beginning to have a different orientation now. It seems to be largely widened in terms of diagnostic function and treatment scope from my last knowledge.

olusegxz:
Lol your reasoning is as epileptic as you are typing. Firstly you are the big boy. Lol big boy nurse.

Then I think you are clearly in the dark about what it is to actually treat a patient. And you have no training for that so I totally understand that.

Diagnosing is not a theoretical function. Even with specific symptoms you may not reach a diagnosis until all investigations are exhausted. I guess that is why nurses don't diagnose. You can treat a symptom and as a matter of fact that's what most doctors will do first, to manage the ailment.

Keep talking theory.

Does it make you feell better as aperson to put people down because they are "nurses" . Anyway I am not a nurse and it does not really matter what you or I claim to be Any fool can come online and claim to be anything .Let the issues and ideas speak for themselves
Leave whoo you are claiming to be out of it.It is not relevant or verifiable. You have always believed that headache is a symptom and not a diagnosis but you are WRONG
There are so many other conditions like that
e.g
Anxiety
Depression

Stick to issues
You are the one that is in the dark about "treatment" because you have an undergraduate mentality.
Even untrained people can offer first aid and that is treatment
Sports physios give treatment and make diagnosis on the football field everyday of the week
Also treatment does not even have to conform to the Western Medical model
I want to believe you are familiar with the concept of interrater reliability
How often do doctors agree on diagnosis
Computer software apps are making diagnosis so you need to understand better what diagnostication is all about
I already told you that nurses DO DIAGNOSE and if as you CLAIMED you have been in the UK you would know that they do so I am inclined to believe you are a liar

aribisala0:
Does it make you feell better as aperson to put people down because they are "nurses" . Anyway I am not a nurse and it does not really matter what you or I claim to be Any fool can come online and claim to be anything .Let the issues and ideas speak for themselves
Leave whoo you are claiming to be out of it.It is not relevant or verifiable. You have always believed that headache is a symptom and not a diagnosis but you are WRONG
There are so many other conditions like that
e.g
Anxiety
Depression

Stick to issues
You are the one that is in the dark about "treatment" because you have an undergraduate mentality.
Even untrained people can offer first aid and that is treatment
Sports physios give treatment and make diagnosis on the football field everyday of the week
Also treatment does not even have to conform to the Western Medical model
I want to believe you are familiar with the concept of interrater reliability
How often do doctors agree on diagnosis
Computer software apps are making diagnosis so you need to understand better what diagnostication is all about
I already told you that nursed DO DIAGNOSE and if as you CLAIMED you have been in the UK you would know that they do so I am inclined to believe you are a liar

Once again let us put words where they are necessary. If you followed this trend you will see that a nurse imprisoning a doctor started the trend. You may or may not be a nurse. I was doubting that you are hence asking for your education status. These are not claims. For a while we have not had a trend on here specific to medics, now I know about 10 colleages following this. I am still nameless and faceless as this is the point of a forum. Also a forum is a place where opinions are aired. From our trend your narration went south very quickly and I responded.

Again I think you and I have a different appreciation of diagnosis. The whole medical profession is based on the training, experience and ability to diagnose. Without it you cannot treat, monitor or even alert of an outbreak. A symptom is different. Covid symptoms existed for almost 7 months before it was diagnosed. So let us stick to the topic of the trend. Are the ARD even still on strike on this same issue.

olusegxz:
As a matter of fact I was already a fellow when I left Nigeria. So add 7 years of undergraduate, another 5 years of post graduate not to mention nysc, and the two years I was doing geology in OSU as it was called then before jamb finally smiled on us to enter this medicine. I think I was clearly born and maybe even almost on my way to university then. After all babangida era is not that long ago I still remember yaba under bridge and free transport and fun fare when God rescued us from those shackles.

No no and no. Not only doctors can. Other health professionals can in their own role. But while I stand to be corrected I am not totally sure about if Nurses in Nigeria can. But hearing from Debola et al, I am beginning to have a different orientation now. It seems to be largely widened in terms of diagnostic function and treatment scope from my last knowledge.

If you are not naturally humble it is necessary to cultivate it.
It is not necessary to put nurses down in other to boost your self esteem
In the UK nurses are more likely to be CEO of hospitals than doctors so they deserve respect . Increasingly doctor will find that they are under competition for market share . Many commissioners find it cheaper to pay a nurse or medical assistant to do what doctors do and doctors if they are to protect their turf must have something else to offer that no one else can do. Atime is coming when a nurse with an App on a computer will be as good as many doctors especially in non invasive medicine

There is nothing like Nurses DNA or doctors DNA . People studied and trained and that knowledge or skill can become out of date if not updated
\doctors must continue to develop themselves to stay current . Many do not and lose their edge that is the reality
Anyway nurses are not the only independent practitioners in healthcare delivery, it is important to have an overview perspective.

olusegxz:
Once again let us put words where they are necessary. If you followed this trend you will see that a nurse imprisoning a doctor started the trend. You may or may not be a nurse. I was doubting that you are hence asking for your education status. These are not claims. For a while we have not had a trend on here specific to medics, now I know about 10 colleages following this. I am still nameless and faceless as this is the point of a forum. Also a forum is a place where opinions are aired. From our trend your narration went south very quickly and I responded.

Again I think you and I have a different appreciation of diagnosis. The whole medical profession is based on the training, experience and ability to diagnose. Without it you cannot treat, monitor or even alert of an outbreak. A symptom is different. Covid symptoms existed for almost 7 months before it was diagnosed. So let us stick to the topic of the trend. Are the ARD even still on strike on this same issue.

Allegedly
Doctors and nurses have been slapping each other for decades in Nigeria did not start today
It probably would not have triggered your visceral response if a doctor had imprisoned a nurse

Diagnosis is Not or at least no longer a "MEDICAL PRESERVE" you need to wake up to that reality
There are social diagnoses, psychological , Educational diagnoses etc so that model that many Nigeria doctors trained with based on pathology is out of date. That continues to reflect in what you are saying
Doctors are not the only ones who diagnose and there are diagnoses that doctors are not trained to make.

It is not my appreciation. It is the WHO which is World Health Organization Not World Medical Organization

Digest that
Interesting you mention COVID

Anyone with the right equipment and 2 hours training can diagnose COVID it has little to do with being a doctor

aribisala0:
Allegedly
Doctors and nurses have been slapping each other for decades in Nigeria did not start today
It probably would not have triggered your visceral response if a doctor had imprisoned a nurse

Diagnosis is Not or at least no longer a "MEDICAL PRESERVE" you need to wake up to that reality
There are social diagnoses, psychological , Educational diagnoses etc so that model that many Nigeria doctors trained with based on pathology is out of date. That continues to reflect in what you are saying
Doctors are not the only ones who diagnose and there are diagnoses that doctors are not trained to make.

It is not my appreciation. It is the WHO which is World Health Organization Not World Medical Organization

Digest that
Interesting you mention COVID

Anyone with the right equipment and 2 hours training can diagnose COVID it has little to do with being a doctor

Well before covid was diagnosed, symptoms were treated. The first health professionals to call it out were doctors. As with most pandemics. Once a diagnosis was established everything else followed including vaccines, management modalities etc. However that is a digress.

Pathologic based diagnosis is still the core of any diagnosis. Even with covid you take a swap and pathogens must detected to diagnose, you cannot be diagnosed at positive, just because you have all the symptoms.

Other diagnostic modalities can come into play, social etc you mentioned. These can be used to understand whatever pathology you are dealing with.

And again I am referring to a scope of training, even with softwares etc someone with adequate training and qualifications needs to signature the diagnosis of whoever you are treating.

Doctors are limited within their own speciality or training. As I mentioned previously. I don't think anyone understands this more than doctors. So no one said doctors do it all. The point is there is a medical hierarchy and this applies globally. Dr. Fauci and fore runners of the covid eradication are doctors. Where I work all team leaders are doctors. The clinical head is a doctor. In a standard health facility this applies. Anything outside this is just your opinion that's not representative of this fact. Name any hospital globally where this does not apply. I mean in term of clinical not administrative.

But again so you do not say I am being biased because I am one, as stated, everyone in the medical team is important and has a vital role to play. Good night.

olusegxz:
Well before covid was diagnosed, symptoms were treated. The first health professionals to call it out were doctors. As with most pandemics. Once a diagnosis was established everything else followed including vaccines, management modalities etc. However that is a digress.

Pathologic based diagnosis is still the core of any diagnosis. Even with covid you take a swap and pathogens must detected to diagnose, you cannot be diagnosed at positive, just because you have all the symptoms.

Other diagnostic modalities can come into play, social etc you mentioned. These can be used to understand whatever pathology you are dealing with.

And again I am referring to a scope of training, even with softwares etc someone with adequate training and qualifications needs to signature the diagnosis of whoever you are treating.

Doctors are limited within their own speciality or training. As I mentioned previously. I don't think anyone understands this more than doctors. So no one said doctors do it all. The point is there is a medical hierarchy and this applies globally. Dr. Fauci and fore runners of the covid eradication are doctors. Where I work all team leaders are doctors. The clinical head is a doctor. In a standard health facility this applies. Anything outside this is just your opinion that's not representative of this fact. Name any hospital globally where this does not apply. I mean in term of clinical not administrative.

I am sorry but you are speaking an outdated language
There is no medical hierarchy everywhere , There is nothing like that in the UK. Every professional is independent of the other though it may be different in surgical disciplines
You say the first health professional to call COVID out were doctors. I do not know and i wonder where you got that from.

It is such a bizarre claim and says a lot about your psychology and need to be on top. Why does that matter? What is your point with that? Of course we simply have no way of checking that claim
Maybe in surgery there is a hierarchy but like I said your thinking is outdated
Diagnosis is something you need to go an sit down and spend a whole day studying because virtually everything you are saying about diagnosis is just not right.
You will need to unlearn a lot of what you think you know
Are you even familiar with the concept of functional diagnoses?
Pathology is a very different effort from diagnostication
There are dozens of diagnoses for which there is no known pathology and where rather what is recognized is just a syndrome or constellation of symptoms and or signs with no known underlying pathology. There are categorical and dimensional approaches to diagnostication
Once again I am not a nurse. But in the UK no one needs to signature what Advanced Nurse Practitioners or other health professional do

Your ideas are so backward I really do not know where to start but that notion of hierarchy , subordination and so on is just nonsense.
It is also clear that you have little understanding of psychiatry? How many pathologies are established as causative in psychosis, depression etc
Chronic fatigue, Essential Hypertension , Conversion disorders and even epilepsy
Surgeons tend to have a concrete perspective of the world but even at that there are many diagnoses without known pathology.
So your idea that pathologic based diagnosis is the core of diagnosis may be true in surgery but not across the range of Medicine.

There is plenty that we just do not know what causes it or see consistent pathology but still make diagnosis and asthma/epilepsy/hypetension are good examples. Also we see diagnosis for Diabetes based on a sign not pathology

Na the kind nuisance wey dey allow dem look down on nurses be this

Young042galaxy:
Graduate nurses salary was recently reviewed to be at pair with their other medical graduates that spent 5yrs in university.
You need to get urself upto date.

Upgraded and reviewd by you I guess.

Otunbakayce:
Upgraded and reviewd by you I guess.

I know most of you think and pray for nursing not to rise, but God pass all of una.
Nurses fought to be included in medical internship and got it at the end.
They have equally won another great battle too.
So you don't have to keep ridiculing nurses cos low salary any more.

aribisala0:
I am sorry but you are speaking an outdated language
There is no medical hierarchy everywhere , There is nothing like that in the UK. Every professional is independent of the other though it may be different in surgical disciplines
You say the first health professional to call COVID out were doctors. I do not know and i wonder where you got that from.

It is such a bizarre claim and says a lot about your psychology and need to be on top. Why does that matter? What is your point with that? Of course we simply have no way of checking that claim
Maybe in surgery there is a hierarchy but like I said your thinking is outdated
Diagnosis is something you need to go an sit down and spend a whole day studying because virtually everything you are saying about diagnosis is just not right.
You will need to unlearn a lot of what you think you know
Are you even familiar with the concept of functional diagnoses?
Pathology is a very different effort from diagnostication
There are dozens of diagnoses for which there is no known pathology and where rather what is recognized is just a syndrome or constellation of symptoms and or signs with no known underlying pathology. There are categorical and dimensional approaches to diagnostication
Once again I am not a nurse. But in the UK no one needs to signature what Advanced Nurse Practitioners or other health professional do

Your ideas are so backward I really do not know where to start but that notion of hierarchy , subordination and so on is just nonsense.
It is also clear that you have little understanding of psychiatry? How many pathologies are established as causative in psychosis, depression etc
Chronic fatigue, Essential Hypertension , Conversion disorders and even epilepsy
Surgeons tend to have a concrete perspective of the world but even at that there are many diagnoses without known pathology.
So your idea that pathologic based diagnosis is the core of diagnosis may be true in surgery but not across the range of Medicine.

There is plenty that we just do not know what causes it or see consistent pathology but still make diagnosis and asthma/epilepsy/hypetension are good examples. Also we see diagnosis for Diabetes based on a sign not pathology

I am sorry Oga. But you have just said a whole lot of nothing. Not replying you as such I am simply making a passing statement. Globally pathologic diagnosis is still the go to standard used to diagnose.

Because there is a gold standard does not mean it is the only standard. I am not here to lecture you.

My point is simple, the level of training you receive determines the medical care responsibility you are entrusted with. Maybe you want to argue that. The higher your level of training the higher your role. It is simple. And that is why a specialist has a higher role than a non specialist doctor in a health team. It is not about ego or insubordination.

When you are ill, who do you go to the hospital to see. I am not demeaning any profession and i never will. We are all colleages. Is there a delegation of duties, yes. Is there a hierarchy; yes. It exists not because of ego as you have severally and erroneously pointed at but to ensure lives are entrusted to the most trained and most experienced and to ensure a smooth running of any health facility or team. Without a hierarchy everyone will just do whatever they want.

You are however entitled to your own opinion.

olusegxz:
I am sorry Oga. But you have just said a whole lot of nothing. Not replying you as such I am simply making a passing statement. Globally pathologic diagnosis is still the go to standard used to diagnose.

Because there is a gold standard does not mean it is the only standard. I am not here to lecture you.

My point is simple, the level of training you receive determines the medical care responsibility you are entrusted with. Maybe you want to argue that. The higher your level of training the higher your role. It is simple. And that is why a specialist has a higher role than a non specialist doctor in a health team. It is not about ego or insubordination.

When you are ill, who do you go to the hospital to see. I am not demeaning any profession and i never will. We are all colleages. Is there a delegation of duties, yes. Is there a hierarchy; yes. It exists not because of ego as you have severally and erroneously pointed at but to ensure lives are entrusted to the most trained and most experienced and to ensure a smooth running of any health facility or team. Without a hierarchy everyone will just do whatever they want.

You are however entitled to your own opinion.

Globally the go to standard of Diagnosis is the WHO standard which is the ICD 10 now 11.
In the US you will not get paid if you do not write an ICD 10/11 diagnosis. Payment is for each diagnosis you treat and that is the gold standard for collecting epidemiologic data
Pathologic diagnosis is not the basis of diagnosis in clinical practice
Not in Psychiatry; schizophrenia, Anxiety ,ADHD PTSD
Tell us what pathologic diagnosis exist for
Epilepsy ? Asthma , Type 2 Diabetes, Essential Hypertension
Stammering , Bedwetting and the dozens of other Idiopathic conditions that we know
Everything you are saying is what a Nigerian trained doctor with a Nigerian mentality would say.
The fundamental problem you have is no grounding in Epistemology and a failure to recognize the limits of what you know
Millions of people go into hospital all over the world daily and have NO contact whatsoever with a doctor. You talk from the limits of your exposure
Do you know what Ambulance crews do, the training they have? In their narrow area they have training, experience and expertise beyond what 99% of doctors have.
Doctors are not the most trained or most experienced in every aspect of health care that is nonsense.
In many chronic and terminal palliative care situations what patients need is just care or palliation NOT treatment per se. Doctors have very little experience in providing non-intervention care and many lack the bedside manner, in Nigeria many are just nasty to patients. So when you say if you are ill who do you go to hospital to see you expose your Nigerian mentality. It depends on the illness.
One of the commonest chronic conditions is back pain. In the absence of surgery what do doctors have to offer? The mainstay is physiotherapy
There are so many types of illnesses that take people to hospital many do not require input from a doctor. People go to see physiotherapists, speech therapists, Occupational therapists , nurses who are independent practitioners for a range of issues with no medical input
You say there is a hierarchy with doctors at the top or at least that is what you imply. More Nigerian nonsense I have seen a hierarchy where Clinical leads are Consultant Nurses and or Consultant Psychologists in the UK. It all depends on the clinical scenarios.
A specialist doctor does not have a HIGHER role than a non specialist doctor he has an ADVISORY role.
Sometimes more than one specialist may be involved who then is HIGHER. ?? I wonder how it is possible to cram so much nonsense into one post
It all comes down to the TOXIC ORIENTATION that Nigerian doctors have that
"DOCTORS ARE THE HEAD OF THE MEDICAL TEAM" Sometimes yes but not always.
Many people study medicine in Nigeria not because they care about people or patients but because they are smart enough to score high in JAMB and this is manifest in their attitude
There are dozens of chronic conditions that have no cure and for which doctors have few interventions other professions provide support and palliation .In your mind that is LOWER.

There really is nothing like HIGHER training ACROSS professions. I do not understand how a pilot can say he is higher trained that a truck driver. They do very different jobs ,none is higher or lower. A specialist doctor is not higher than a GP. They are different
An auto mechanic is not superior to a panel beater. Everyone has his area. When you say most trained most experienced. Who is the judge of that? By what metrics?
Healthcare provision is not the territory of doctors. It is the territory of all professionals and the message is many professionals do not recognize the supremacy of doctors across board rather everyone has his area of competence and who leads depends on the specific needs of each patient

aribisala0:
Globally the go to standard of Diagnosis is the WHO standard which is the ICD 10 now 11.
In the US you will not get paid if you do not write an ICD 10/11 diagnosis. Payment is for each diagnosis you treat and that is the gold standard for collecting epidemiologic data
Pathologic diagnosis is not the basis of diagnosis in clinical practice
Not in Psychiatry; schizophrenia, Anxiety ,ADHD PTSD
Tell us what pathologic diagnosis exist for
Epilepsy ? Asthma , Type 2 Diabetes, Essential Hypertension
Stammering , Bedwetting and the dozens of other Idiopathic conditions that we know
Everything you are saying is what a Nigerian trained doctor with a Nigerian mentality would say.
The fundamental problem you have is no grounding in Epistemology and a failure to recognize the limits of what you know
Millions of people go into hospital all over the world daily and have NO contact whatsoever with a doctor. You talk from the limits of your exposure
Do you know what Ambulance crews do, the training they have? In their narrow area they have training, experience and expertise beyond what 99% of doctors have.
Doctors are not the most trained or most experienced in every aspect of health care that is nonsense.
In many chronic and terminal palliative care situations what patients need is just care or palliation NOT treatment per se. Doctors have very little experience in providing non-intervention care and many lack the bedside manner, in Nigeria many are just nasty to patients. So when you say if you are ill who do you go to hospital to see you expose your Nigerian mentality. It depends on the illness.
One of the commonest chronic conditions is back pain. In the absence of surgery what do doctors have to offer? The mainstay is physiotherapy
There are so many types of illnesses that take people to hospital many do not require input from a doctor. People go to see physiotherapists, speech therapists, Occupational therapists , nurses who are independent practitioners for a range of issues with no medical input
You say there is a hierarchy with doctors at the top or at least that is what you imply. More Nigerian nonsense I have seen a hierarchy where Clinical leads are Consultant Nurses and or Consultant Psychologists in the UK. It all depends on the clinical scenarios.
A specialist doctor does not have a HIGHER role than a non specialist doctor he has an ADVISORY role.
Sometimes more than one specialist may be involved who then is HIGHER. ?? I wonder how it is possible to cram so much nonsense into one post
It all comes down to the TOXIC ORIENTATION that Nigerian doctors have that
"DOCTORS ARE THE HEAD OF THE MEDICAL TEAM" Sometimes yes but not always.
Many people study medicine in Nigeria not because they care about people or patients but because they are smart enough to score high in JAMB and this is manifest in their attitude
There are dozens of chronic conditions that have no cure and for which doctors have few interventions other professions provide support and palliation .In your mind that is LOWER.

There really is nothing like HIGHER training ACROSS professions. I do not understand how a pilot can say he is higher trained that a truck driver. They do very different jobs ,none is higher or lower. A specialist doctor is not higher than a GP. They are different
An auto mechanic is not superior to a panel beater. Everyone has his area. When you say most trained most experienced. Who is the judge of that? By what metrics?
Healthcare provision is not the territory of doctors. It is the territory of all professionals and the message is many professionals do not recognize the supremacy of doctors across board rather everyone has his area of competence and who leads depends on the specific needs of each patient

Once again a whole lot of nothing.

So let me address briefly two things you have mentioned the most.

1. Diagnosis
2. Medical Hierarchy

Diagnosis - Since you want a lecture and you have googled non invasive health treatment modalities I will give you the simple input of what Diagnosis entails. As mentioned before there is not one standard to care. Nobody ever said that. Generally in health care you have pathologic illnesses and psychological illnesses, not to mention a few. When you diagnose a holistic approach is always used. It is your basic understanding of clinical application that keeps you repeating the same thing out of context of what I said. I will give you a scenario. A definitive diagnosis is one that is usually pathology based. If you have a metastatic melanoma for example anywhere in the world you go, as long as they are trained doctors there, under investigations specific cells associated with that pathology has to be detected to categorically give a definitive diagnosis.

Now to your take, again if you go through what I said and somehow have an understanding of my very basic English, I mentioned that there are other diagnostic modalities. What you are saying is equivalent to telling a child how to recite a nursery rhyme. Maybe you do not realise you are talking to a trained doc. In Nigeria that you hate, your self acclaimed UK and other countries Nigerian doctors go there and excel.

Let us keep remaining faceless.


When it comes to cases like anxiety, depression, stammering and all the other broad conditions you are referring to, we can spend a year analysing differential diagnosis for those. Because when there is no specific pathologic parameter
you need to use other approaches. E.g a wider approach of diagnosis exists for psychological cases and other related cases. Every doctor knows that. In the plastic surgery field BDD is a big psychological concern that needs a multiapproach. We see it everyday. And those are best managed with a multi specialist team as recommended.

Again using a basic case you will understand, covid; irrespective of your all loving psychological, stammering, cold, back pain etc and all other irrelevant jargon you mentioned in the context of what was not said, the only way you can say someone has covid is you look under the scope and the causative pathogens are identified. No other way. That is definitive. I am not talking about broad, note writing, diagnosis.

And when it comes to Hierarchy. Again your understanding of that word is clouded by bias, bitterness and lack of understanding. I clearly said a health team, and you are there mentioning what is irrelevant. Even in your UK. Is an SHO higher than a consultant. Nurses have been included in the debate because of their close relationship with doctors. Why is the title Dr. protected. The way the health profession is structured is changing no one doubts that but that process still recognises a structure of clinical knowledge. Get a clinical team organogram and let us see who heads most teams. And there is a reason for this. Keep talking theory.

You mentioned covid the doctors who first reported it are two Chinese doctors, however official or unofficial it was, as they are no more. But that is a topic for another day.

Once again hierarchy is not a derogatory term. It signifies structure. Even a simple ward has hierarchy. Even the nurses you are shouting about have a hierarchy. You noticed I did not mention any other health profession per se, that is because the nursing role was primarily created to support doctors. Or should we now start with the genesis of Medicine? However I understand that, that role is changing and they are becoming more independent.

Hierarchy doesnt mean anyone is better. Nigerian mentality. Does it exist. Yes.

How do you differential diagnose and proceed to a definitive diagnosis. I bet you don't know the difference in practise. Psychology is another aspect entirely and I am not a psychologist so I do not know their diagnosis modalities.

So you telling me other approaches to diagnosis is laughable. As though it is something new. And there is a health hierarchy. I didn't create it. What is being done about it is a different matter but it exists.

aribisala0:
Globally the go to standard of Diagnosis is the WHO standard which is the ICD 10 now 11.
In the US you will not get paid if you do not write an ICD 10/11 diagnosis. Payment is for each diagnosis you treat and that is the gold standard for collecting epidemiologic data
Pathologic diagnosis is not the basis of diagnosis in clinical practice
Not in Psychiatry; schizophrenia, Anxiety ,ADHD PTSD
Tell us what pathologic diagnosis exist for
Epilepsy ? Asthma , Type 2 Diabetes, Essential Hypertension
Stammering , Bedwetting and the dozens of other Idiopathic conditions that we know
Everything you are saying is what a Nigerian trained doctor with a Nigerian mentality would say.
The fundamental problem you have is no grounding in Epistemology and a failure to recognize the limits of what you know
Millions of people go into hospital all over the world daily and have NO contact whatsoever with a doctor. You talk from the limits of your exposure
Do you know what Ambulance crews do, the training they have? In their narrow area they have training, experience and expertise beyond what 99% of doctors have.
Doctors are not the most trained or most experienced in every aspect of health care that is nonsense.
In many chronic and terminal palliative care situations what patients need is just care or palliation NOT treatment per se. Doctors have very little experience in providing non-intervention care and many lack the bedside manner, in Nigeria many are just nasty to patients. So when you say if you are ill who do you go to hospital to see you expose your Nigerian mentality. It depends on the illness.
One of the commonest chronic conditions is back pain. In the absence of surgery what do doctors have to offer? The mainstay is physiotherapy
There are so many types of illnesses that take people to hospital many do not require input from a doctor. People go to see physiotherapists, speech therapists, Occupational therapists , nurses who are independent practitioners for a range of issues with no medical input
You say there is a hierarchy with doctors at the top or at least that is what you imply. More Nigerian nonsense I have seen a hierarchy where Clinical leads are Consultant Nurses and or Consultant Psychologists in the UK. It all depends on the clinical scenarios.
A specialist doctor does not have a HIGHER role than a non specialist doctor he has an ADVISORY role.
Sometimes more than one specialist may be involved who then is HIGHER. ?? I wonder how it is possible to cram so much nonsense into one post
It all comes down to the TOXIC ORIENTATION that Nigerian doctors have that
"DOCTORS ARE THE HEAD OF THE MEDICAL TEAM" Sometimes yes but not always.
Many people study medicine in Nigeria not because they care about people or patients but because they are smart enough to score high in JAMB and this is manifest in their attitude
There are dozens of chronic conditions that have no cure and for which doctors have few interventions other professions provide support and palliation .In your mind that is LOWER.

There really is nothing like HIGHER training ACROSS professions. I do not understand how a pilot can say he is higher trained that a truck driver. They do very different jobs ,none is higher or lower. A specialist doctor is not higher than a GP. They are different
An auto mechanic is not superior to a panel beater. Everyone has his area. When you say most trained most experienced. Who is the judge of that? By what metrics?
Healthcare provision is not the territory of doctors. It is the territory of all professionals and the message is many professionals do not recognize the supremacy of doctors across board rather everyone has his area of competence and who leads depends on the specific needs of each patient

It is actually because it exists that you are so bitter about it. Is it sometimes abused yes. And it is not a Nigerian thing. At least I was in that your UK for 9 years. Oga leave this matter to those who are affected. But I feel your bitterness though. Abi in your UK there who has the highest salary structure in nurses, doctors etc. At least salary can be a measurement of position. Not the only one but it is a valid measurement of who is higher in a team, before you now lecture me again lol. Good night. I await your response.

olusegxz:
It is actually because it exists that you are so bitter about it. Is it sometimes abused yes. And it is not a Nigerian thing. At least I was in that your UK for 9 years. Oga leave this matter to those who are affected. But I feel your bitterness though. Abi in your UK there who has the highest salary structure in nurses, doctors etc. I worked there so maybe you want to lie. At least salary is a measurement of position. Even in civil service there in Nig. Let's leave this.

Well that is quite weak and petty from you but again predictable. Why should I be bitter ? The reality is you have lost the ideas debate. So you resort to the personal like you did the other day talking about my English. I will not indulge you by talking about myself simply because if I did I will lose anonymity but so far your English has not been at a standard to justify that remark and anyone following this thread can tell that we do not write English at the same level. All your offerings have been littered by regrettable solecisms
I do not know what you mean by "position" , or salary being a measure of position. Salary is not about position but about DEMAND AND SUPPLY. Salary is not a moral construct but an economic one.
That is why Brain surgeons earn more than Paediatricians or Psychiatrists
Is the Prime Minister of Britain the highest paid government employee

How is that relevant to any of the things we were talking about. It just reinforces what I have said all along about your toxic Nigerian orientation.
I am happy to debate you on issues because I know I am more articulate than you can ever be
You are the one that is bitter You were in "my UK for 9 years" what did you achieve? Did you get on the Specialist Register ? You should have achieved that in 9 years so that makes you a failure and you ran away if we are to believe your tales that indeed you are a doctor.
Guy learn to shun pettiness in debate and stick to issues. No one asked you to render your inconsequential biography
.

aribisala0:
Well that is quite weak and petty from you but again predictable. Why should I be bitter ? The reality is you have lost the ideas debate. So you resort to the personal like you did the other day talking about my English. I will not indulge you by talking about myself simply because if I did I will lose anonymity but so far your English has not been at a standard to justify that remark and anyone following this thread can tell that we do not write English at the same level. All your offerings have been littered by regrettable solecisms
I do not know what you mean by "position" , or salary being a measure of position. Salary is not about position but about DEMAND AND SUPPLY. Salary is not a moral construct but an economic one.
That is why Brain surgeons earn more than Paediatricians or Psychiatrists
Is the Prime Minister of Britain the highest paid government employee

How is that relevant to any of the things we were talking about. It just reinforces what I have said all along about your toxic Nigerian orientation.
I am happy to debate you on issues because I know I am more articulate than you can ever be
You are the one that is bitter You were in "my UK for 9 years" what did you achieve? Did you get on the Specialist Register ? You should have achieved that in 9 years so that makes you a failure and you ran away if we are to believe your tales that indeed you are a doctor.
Guy learn to shun pettiness in debate and stick to issues. No one asked you to render your inconsequential biography
.

Lol you are laughable. UK? I won't stay there if it is free. And yes I am a member of the royal college. And I am same in Australia. You don't know me and neither do I know you. You have exposed many things so saying you want to remain anonymous is laughable. Mr. UK.

UK that is dead. If you are medical let me help you come to AUSTRALIA.

Speaking about personal characteristics, I think you should read your summons and irrelevants. Mechanic Lol.

You are clearly bitter. But I understand. You will now say WHO allows a doctor to be imprisoned.

And salary? You are just full of theory. Demand and supply. Lol. Are you a learner?

Salary globally is used as a reward. Why do you get higher salary when promoted. And I clearly said amongst other things.

Abi MR. UK why are you there??

olusegxz:
Once again a whole lot of nothing.

So let me address briefly two things you have mentioned the most.

1. Diagnosis
2. Medical Hierarchy

Diagnosis - Since you want a lecture and you have googled non invasive health treatment modalities I will give you the simple input of what Diagnosis entails. As mentioned before there is not one standard to care. Nobody ever said that. Generally in health care you have pathologic illnesses and psychological illnesses, not to mention a few. When you diagnose a holistic approach is always used. It is your basic understanding of clinical application that keeps you repeating the same thing out of context of what I said. I will give you a scenario. A definitive diagnosis is one that is usually pathology based. If you have a metastatic melanoma for example anywhere in the world you go, as long as they are trained doctors there, under investigations specific cells associated with that pathology has to be detected to categorically give a definitive diagnosis.

Now to your take, again if you go through what I said and somehow have an understanding of my very basic English, I mentioned that there are other diagnostic modalities. What you are saying is equivalent to telling a child how to recite a nursery rhyme. Maybe you do not realise you are talking to a trained doc. In Nigeria that you hate, your self acclaimed UK and other countries Nigerian doctors go there and excel.

Let us keep remaining faceless.


When it comes to cases like anxiety, depression, stammering and all the other broad conditions you are referring to, we can spend a year analysing differential diagnosis for those. Because when there is no specific pathologic parameter
you need to use other approaches. E.g a wider approach of diagnosis exists for psychological cases and other related cases. Every doctor knows that. In the plastic surgery field BDD is a big psychological concern that needs a multiapproach. We see it everyday. And those are best managed with a multi specialist team as recommended.

Again using a basic case you will understand, covid; irrespective of your all loving psychological, stammering, cold, back pain etc and all other irrelevant jargon you mentioned in the context of what was not said, the only way you can say someone has covid is you look under the scope and the causative pathogens are identified. No other way. That is definitive. I am not talking about broad, note writing, diagnosis.

And when it comes to Hierarchy. Again your understanding of that word is clouded by bias, bitterness and lack of understanding. I clearly said a health team, and you are there mentioning what is irrelevant. Even in your UK. Is an SHO higher than a consultant. Nurses have been included in the debate because of their close relationship with doctors. Why is the title Dr. protected. The way the health profession is structured is changing no one doubts that but that process still recognises a structure of clinical knowledge. Get a clinical team organogram and let us see who heads most teams. And there is a reason for this. Keep talking theory.

You mentioned covid the doctors who first reported it are two Chinese doctors, however official or unofficial it was, as they are no more. But that is a topic for another day.

Once again hierarchy is not a derogatory term. It signifies structure. Even a simple ward has hierarchy. Even the nurses you are shouting about have a hierarchy. You noticed I did not mention any other health profession per se, that is because the nursing role was primarily created to support doctors. Or should we now start with the genesis of Medicine? However I understand that, that role is changing and they are becoming more independent.

Hierarchy doesnt mean anyone is better. Nigerian mentality. Does it exist. Yes.

How do you differential diagnose and proceed to a definitive diagnosis. I bet you don't know the difference in practise. Psychology is another aspect entirely and I am not a psychologist so I do not know their diagnosis modalities.

So you telling me other approaches to diagnosis is laughable. As though it is something new. And there is a health hierarchy. I didn't create it. What is being done about it is a different matter but it exists.

You do not listen and so you cannot learn. The ICD 10 does not exist for doctors alone. Psychologists use it and they do not use the medical approach necessarily
Diagnosis does not have to be correct and often it is not. That is what accounts for most malpractice litigation
I doubt that you have ever come across the Term "summary of Product characteristics" SPC
inquire into it
By law you cannot prescribe any drug without making a diagnosis simply because ALL drugs have a licensed indication in its SPC .
So prescribing must be based on a diagnosis which is most of the time "clinical" and does not have to be DEFINITIVE. Even if provisional you must make a clinical diagnosis before prescribing any drug and that must be for indications on the SPC otherwise you are open to malpractice litigation. That is what happens in practice. Most treatments are based on a WORKING or PROVISIONAL diagnosis
My understanding from speaking to doctors like you from Nigeria is that hierarchy implies that in clinical decision making doctors have the final say. That may be the case in surgery but not in all areas of healthcare in the UK that I know very well
You talk about English and you do not even know the meaning of the word "jargon".
What is the relevance of Chinese doctors first reporting COVID ? Does that show that doctors are at the head of your so called hierarchy? It is not relevant and is not verifiable

Those conditions that you describe as "broad" are all recognized diagnoses by the WHO . Diagnosis do not have to have a known pathology.
That is why we talk of functional diagnosis

olusegxz:
Lol you are laughable. UK? I won't stay there if it is free. And yes I am a member of the royal college. And I am same in Australia. You don't know me and neither do I know you. You have exposed many things so saying you want to remain anonymous is laughable. Mr. UK.

UK that is dead. If you are medical let me help you come to AUSTRALIA.

Speaking about personal characteristics, I think you should read your summons and irrelevants. Mechanic Lol.

You are clearly bitter. But I understand. You will now say WHO allows a doctor to be imprisoned.

And salary? You are just full of theory. Demand and supply. Lol. Are you a learner?

Salary globally is used as a reward. Why do you get higher salary when promoted. And I clearly said amongst other things.

Abi MR. UK why are you there??

All your claims are unverifiable and therefore foolish. I do not believe you are a doctor. It maybe that you dropped out or never even were admitted
You won't stay in UK for free but claim you stayed here for 9 years?

Guy leave the biography and personal stuff.
Stick to the issues and bridle your ego
Salary money comes from somewhere. Ultimately across industries this is the customer. The PAYING customer. The money does not drop from the sky so of course demand and supply determine wages.
If you do not know that you do not know anything
Ronaldo earns more because his shirts sell more. That is where the money comes from
In Cuba they have a very high supply of doctors and wages are LOW
Many footballers earn more than their bosses and this is equally true for doctors. Salary does not reflect hierarchy. Within the NHS doctors report to people who may be earning half their salary

olusegxz:
UK that is dead. If you are medical let me help you come to AUSTRALIA.

Are you not small?

Help me come to Australia? You talk very foolishly.
Don't you have family members? Help them
I do not believe you are a doctor, maybe a dropout

aribisala0:
All your claims are unverifiable and therefore foolish. I do not believe you are a doctor. It maybe that you dropped out or never even were admitted
You won't stay in UK for free but claim you stayed here for 9 years?

Guy leave the biography and personal stuff.
Stick to the issues and bridle your ego
Salary money comes from somewhere. Ultimately across industries this is the customer. The PAYING customer. The money does not drop from the sky so of course demand and supply determine wages.
If you do not know that you do not know anything
Ronaldo earns more because his shirts sell more. That is where the money comes from
In Cuba they have a very high supply of doctors and wages are LOW
Many footballers earn more than their bosses and this is equally true for doctors. Salary does not reflect hierarchy. Within the NHS doctors report to people who may be earning half their salary

Lol joker. You are clearly a disgrunted lab scientist or something. You say you know CMUL. What year were you?? Which medical school did you go. Where are you in the UK? I will expose you lol. At least I know many docs in the UK. Just tell us where you work let us probe you. You don't need to tell us your name.

aribisala0:
Are you not small?

Help me come to Australia? You talk very foolishly.
Don't you have family members? Help them
I do not believe you are a doctor, maybe a dropout

Lol yes. If you are medical let me help you come here. Abi you don't know UK doctors are influxing here on the daily lol.

olusegxz:
Lol yes. If you are medical let me help you come here. Abi you don't know UK doctors are influxing here as if it's boat lol.

I would rather give you a job.
Do not talk like a fool. The fact that we are online together does not make us coevals
The tail is very far from the head. Go and help your family

aribisala0:
I would rather give you a job.
Do not talk like a fool. The fact that we are online together does not make us coevals
The tail is very far from the head. Go and help your family

Haha. Next time be a doctor. Your hate will kill you. Foolish thing. Just my surname alone will help your generations. Ask seun at least seun knows me.

Mr. UK lol

I noticed your foul mouth from the beginning. Illiterate.

olusegxz:
Haha. Next time be a doctor. Your hate will kill you. Foolish thing. Just my surname alone will help your generations. Ask seun at least seun knows me.

Mr. UK lol

I noticed your foul mouth from the beginning. Illiterate.

lol
You are small and insecure. You do not really believe in yourself
Who or what you are is not relevant .Invoking that shows you have lost the debate.
Any fool can come online to claim to be this and that?
It remains an anonymous forum
I do not believe you are a doctor until I see your certificate with your photograph

aribisala0:
lol
You are small and insecure. You do not really believe in yourself
Who or what you are is not relevant .Invoking that show you have lost the debate.
Any fool can come online to claim to be this and that?
It remains an anonymous forum
I do not believe you are a doctor until I see your certificate with your photograph

Lol Mr. UK. You say you know CMUL. There is a place called mandate. It has existed for years. What is it. Lol let's probe you.

olusegxz:
Lol Mr. UK. You say you know CMUL. There is a place called mandate. It has existed for years. What is it. Lol let's probe you.

I am not here to play stupid games with you or to prove anything. I am not that insecure.
However I will answer that . I have never heard of Mandate. What does that prove? I am your fathers mate not yours
Let us stick to issues . You are more comfortable with the personal
I do not want to know you and I particularly do not want to be known. I crave anonymity
Show us your photograph and certificate to prove you are a doctor because I do not believe you

aribisala0:
I am not here to play stupid games with you or to prove anything. I am not that insecure.
However I will answer that . I have never heard of Mandate. What does that prove? I am your fathers mate not yours
Let us stick to issues . You are more comfortable with the personal
I do not want to know you and I particularly do not want to be known. I crave anonymity
Show us your photograph and certificate to prove you are a doctor because I do not believe you

You are a joker. Aburo ode. You say you know CMUL and don't know mandate. Even Professors know. Foolish man. Getout.