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Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu - Politics (4) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Politics / Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu (24465 Views)

Ekweremadus: Those people can kill me, I want to remain in the UK - Nwamini / Ekweremadu: Ukpo Nwamini Is Lying About Being 15 Years Old - Kperogi / Photos Of David Ukpo Nwamini, The 15-Year-Old Boy Ekweremadu Took To The UK (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by MarketDispatch: 2:33pm On Jul 01, 2022
fergie001:


SOURCE





Methinks it will be a good idea to also release the boys account balance in addition to the immigration documents so that we actually know what the boy received as benefits to have accepted, or maybe he was just a good Samaritan.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by naija4life247: 2:33pm On Jul 01, 2022
Johnrake69:
Ike Ekweremadu will serve a jail term. Unless they're ready to completely sell Nigeria to UK because of him.

There's no way he will escape organ harvesting and human trafficking charge. Buying of Organ is illegal anywhere in the world.

Not in Osogbo and Ogun. My skull mining brothers can harvest any organ at any time.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by IamAsiri: 2:35pm On Jul 01, 2022
Freebills12:
[color=#000099][/color]

The second one is difficult, since there is no written document, unless they will pay or coerce his parents to say otherwise

Pay his parents to enable their son go to prison or be killed in Nigeria after deportation? Really? grin
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by mployer(m): 2:35pm On Jul 01, 2022
WatchYourSix:


Thats technically not hard to prove... the nigga boarded plane without force after seeing his passports and dropping his finger print at the uk embassy...the story of job and mr okoro is word of mouth that wont stand in court

What will be hard is the uk prosecuting lawyer proving that the senator had the knowlegde he's a minor and still went ahead with it.... that why young man's age is central in this case..
.u guys think the lawyer is asking for docuemnts to prove the boys age formality sake??
Still, the courts can nail the senator for exploitation/abuse of power and position
but thats a lesser offense to trafficking a minor and forcefully tryin to take his kidney without his consent.....

You didn't understand the post.

Someone that is financially induced will willingly board a flight.

But financial inducement for organ donation is illegal. Get the point.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by EfonAlaaye2023(m): 2:38pm On Jul 01, 2022
he might win the guy on age falsification he accused him of but did he have a documented agreement of the purpose of taking him abroad? if he doesn't have a documented agreement with David, there is no how ike won't still serve a jail term

1 Like

Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Jevica: 2:40pm On Jul 01, 2022
But I thought there is a devise for scruitinizing someones age.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by InvertedHammer: 2:41pm On Jul 01, 2022
AngelicBeing:
l agree, The Western world look at most document from Nigeria as fake, the Sin - ator and his wife are in a hot pot of ogbono soup, they might likely jail them, lastly, considering the Vip nature of the Sin- ator, the boys attorney might likely coach and goad the boy to file a civil lawsuit against the Sinator to cash out from the case as well, and the boy as it stands now, qualifies for Aduro in England , his asylum application will be granted sad
/
It will be idiotic for the boy not to do what he did.
Most visas to developed countries are denied because applicants are unable to show evidence that they will return to Nigeria. They know say most wey escape Nigeria no want come back voluntarily. So boy wey leave Lagos touch UK na him they want send back and expect a smooth sail? grin

I can assure you that a Nigerian hospital ran the tests and told Ike Ekweremadu that the boy is a match. The dog eat dog life they live in Nigeria probably made the hospital collect their money, write one nonsense lab result give Ekweremadu. Wetin concern them? Ever heard of fake covid results emanating from Nigeria? UK gets millions of visitors from Nigeria annually. They know Nigeria more than Nigerians.

/
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by IamAsiri: 2:42pm On Jul 01, 2022
MatrixCircle:

Yes he will claim his life is now in danger in Nigeria if goes back home. He will be granted fast fast .

But that's the truth! If he steps into Nigeria, he might most likely get killed. lipsrsealed
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Awoo88: 2:42pm On Jul 01, 2022
BeeBeeOoh:
shocked

Forget matter, God has used the Ekweremadu's to butter David Ukpo's bread.

One thing that's sacrosanct is that he's gonna seek for aduro in UK and they'll give him better aduro to chop.
If dem prove say the man no bi 15, d adult wen him go chop na 4 prison
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by ShotCaller: 2:43pm On Jul 01, 2022
This is one of the greatest read i have come accross on this platform. God bless The writer..

kudos
FreeStuffsNG:
Hmmm.

I recall having this conversation with my wife during the week when the case of Sen. Ike Ekweremadu came up and I was completely in an incandescent shock that this man actually has a bed ridden daughter yet has been all over the place attending political meetings for his political ambition instead of taking time out to sort out this his daughter's pressing health needs shocked

He was all over the place during the PDP primaries, he lost the PDP gubernatorial primaries for Enugu state then started planning to decamp to APGA, then APC and was even taken to APC national Chairman by HE Uzodinma when APC stalwarts in Enugu APC,led by their state Chairman, outrightly rejected him. He is not returning to the Senate as well. Eventually, he lost on all the political fronts.

Sen. Ike Ekweremadu was all over the place so much that he did not follow through on the health and lifestyle choices of his children.

He did not follow through on what I believe is more important than his political ambition; the life of his daughter and a family at the low ebb of the apprehension of losing a child to kidney failure.

Ike Ekeremadu was so consumed by his political ambition that he had no time and seriousness to do due diligence and background check on the character they got him as a donor for his daughter , I doubt if with his PhD, he even had the time to follow through and read up to ask the right questions from the professionals, understand the risks and benefits of why it could be better for one member of his family of 6 to donate to the daughter instead of a stranger and seek help to find out if there are some of the tests which can be done on the stranger here in Nigeria before bundling a total stranger overseas.

He was so consumed by politics that when the 22-year old donor went rogue and was allegedly scheming behind him to deny his age and report Ike and family to UK police, it probably escaped his detection and intervention soon enough so he can be the first to report to UK police and then return the donor to Nigeria for him to immediately restart the process of getting alternative donor(s) for his ailing daughter whose life was more important to him.

He forgot that he was first a father and husband before becoming a Senator,Deputy Senate President and SSG.
He forgot that he will finish as a father and husband.

I compared him to Biden and I believe that he could have followed the Biden example. Then V.P Biden had a dying son in 2017 and had the opportunity to contest against Trump for the US Presidency but stepped down to support his dying son.

Biden was to sell his family house before Barack Obama intervened and offered to pay for the treatment. Biden's boy made his Dad promise him that no matter what happens, Biden must not give up his life long ambition to be US President, Biden's boy later died. Biden grieved without the guilt of abandoning his son for his political ambition.

In 2021, years after his son had passed, Biden contested and won. There are many Nigerian politicians who will do like Biden but not like Ike.

Family is so important that we even need the approval of a sick dying one before we place anything above their life

That is the lesson Ike missed and about to lose from both ends as his wife who takes care of the daughter remains in prison until July 7.

Last two weeks was Father's Day and I really truly hope that fathers used that day to reflect and understand the real responsibility of fatherhood. It is the hardest job for a man but it gives the greatest reward if you do your best at it.

As a father , I have realized that it is not possible to outsource that role of a father and not pay heavy fines.

May God heal that Ike Ekweremadu's daughter and may God help the Ike Ekweremadu in this their difficult time. I know it is a difficult place for them May God help all fathers to realise that "your child is your responsibility".

That you pay all the bills and have a devoted and responsible wife/mother of your child won't still make up for your negligence.

Your child is your responsibility and not even your ambition can replace what you will miss if you neglect your role in the life of your child.
Do not be like Senator Ike Ekeremadu who was literally chasing rats around the house when his house was on fire.

May God help us all to succeed and may our children not develop kidney failure( Amin). May our labour of love and sacrifice be rewarded in our life time and when we are long gone(Amin).
Sunkanmi Vaughan, June 25,2022.

Meanwhile,here's free book on business ideas & money sources directory for you,it's 100% free! to download, read and use https://www.nairaland.com/6666800/looking-business-ideas-money-fund. Cheers.

1 Like

Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by WatchYourSix: 2:43pm On Jul 01, 2022
mployer:


You didn't understand the post.

Someone that is financially induced will willingly board a flight.

But financial inducement for organ donation is illegal. Get the point.

Oh..so if i induce you financially to do wrong, its not your fault?? Even if you are not a minor??

Anyways...U dont understand me..and you said i dont understamd you...

So lets end the converstation
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by ogatboy(m): 2:44pm On Jul 01, 2022
FreeStuffsNG:
Hmmm.

I recall having this conversation with my wife during the week when the case of Sen. Ike Ekweremadu came up and I was completely in an incandescent shock that this man actually has a bed ridden daughter yet has been all over the place attending political meetings for his political ambition instead of taking time out to sort out this his daughter's pressing health needs shocked

He was all over the place during the PDP primaries, he lost the PDP gubernatorial primaries for Enugu state then started planning to decamp to APGA, then APC and was even taken to APC national Chairman by HE Uzodinma when APC stalwarts in Enugu APC,led by their state Chairman, outrightly rejected him. He is not returning to the Senate as well. Eventually, he lost on all the political fronts.

Sen. Ike Ekweremadu was all over the place so much that he did not follow through on the health and lifestyle choices of his children.

He did not follow through on what I believe is more important than his political ambition; the life of his daughter and a family at the low ebb of the apprehension of losing a child to kidney failure.

Ike Ekeremadu was so consumed by his political ambition that he had no time and seriousness to do due diligence and background check on the character they got him as a donor for his daughter , I doubt if with his PhD, he even had the time to follow through and read up to ask the right questions from the professionals, understand the risks and benefits of why it could be better for one member of his family of 6 to donate to the daughter instead of a stranger and seek help to find out if there are some of the tests which can be done on the stranger here in Nigeria before bundling a total stranger overseas.

He was so consumed by politics that when the 22-year old donor went rogue and was allegedly scheming behind him to deny his age and report Ike and family to UK police, it probably escaped his detection and intervention soon enough so he can be the first to report to UK police and then return the donor to Nigeria for him to immediately restart the process of getting alternative donor(s) for his ailing daughter whose life was more important to him.

He forgot that he was first a father and husband before becoming a Senator,Deputy Senate President and SSG.
He forgot that he will finish as a father and husband.

I compared him to Biden and I believe that he could have followed the Biden example. Then V.P Biden had a dying son in 2017 and had the opportunity to contest against Trump for the US Presidency but stepped down to support his dying son.

Biden was to sell his family house before Barack Obama intervened and offered to pay for the treatment. Biden's boy made his Dad promise him that no matter what happens, Biden must not give up his life long ambition to be US President, Biden's boy later died. Biden grieved without the guilt of abandoning his son for his political ambition.

In 2021, years after his son had passed, Biden contested and won. There are many Nigerian politicians who will do like Biden but not like Ike.

Family is so important that we even need the approval of a sick dying one before we place anything above their life

That is the lesson Ike missed and about to lose from both ends as his wife who takes care of the daughter remains in prison until July 7.

Last two weeks was Father's Day and I really truly hope that fathers used that day to reflect and understand the real responsibility of fatherhood. It is the hardest job for a man but it gives the greatest reward if you do your best at it.

As a father , I have realized that it is not possible to outsource that role of a father and not pay heavy fines.

May God heal that Ike Ekweremadu's daughter and may God help the Ike Ekweremadu in this their difficult time. I know it is a difficult place for them May God help all fathers to realise that "your child is your responsibility".

That you pay all the bills and have a devoted and responsible wife/mother of your child won't still make up for your negligence.

Your child is your responsibility and not even your ambition can replace what you will miss if you neglect your role in the life of your child.
Do not be like Senator Ike Ekeremadu who was literally chasing rats around the house when his house was on fire.

May God help us all to succeed and may our children not develop kidney failure( Amin). May our labour of love and sacrifice be rewarded in our life time and when we are long gone(Amin).
Sunkanmi Vaughan, June 25,2022.

Meanwhile,here's free book on business ideas & money sources directory for you,it's 100% free! to download, read and use https://www.nairaland.com/6666800/looking-business-ideas-money-fund. Cheers.


Next time, just summarise your main point
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by obailala(m): 2:45pm On Jul 01, 2022
gaetano:
If you like bring details confirming his age is 21, it doesn't matter. As far as ekweremadu can't provide a signed agreement that the boy actually agreed with the medical procedure, it won't fly. I just want our politicians to suffer small. You can imagine the kind of bills that would have been passed to help improve our health sector by establishing such facility here but instead they loot and send their kids abroad. Wo, I want him to suffer and for the boy to find his way and enjoy his life over there.

No be everytime politicians dey run us street, make person sef run them
Your desire to see the politician suffer unfortunately isnt enough for the Uk authorities to turn logic and due process on its head. Ekweremmadu did not need any signed agreement with the boy; if the boy is confirmed a minor, then yes the parents may have needed to sign before permitting him travel with the Ekweremadus. But if the boy is proven not to be a minor, the written consent becomes useless.

As an adult, the boy had the right of refusal up until the point in the hospital when the doctors were to start the procedure. Except it can be proven that Ekweremmadu pinned him down or chained him to the bed against his will, or maybe they put a gun to the heads of his parents back in Nigeria, I'm not sure how it can be proven that the senator was ripping off his organ against his will or under duress.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by mployer(m): 2:47pm On Jul 01, 2022
WatchYourSix:


Oh..so if i induce you financially to do wrong, its not your fault?? Even if you are not a minor??

Anyways...U dont understand me..and you said i dont understamd you...

So lets end the converstation

It's illegal to buy a human organ. You are leveraging on the person weakness to abuse him.

If you buy someone as a slave, you the buyer will be prosecuted not the person that sold himself.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by IamAsiri: 2:48pm On Jul 01, 2022
Eniitankorede:



It’s going to be tough but he is likely to be deported. They don’t joke with people giving false and misleading information with the aim to seek asylum. He will be jailed and deported.

Not if that was the only way he could get the attention of the police. He might get sentenced but it might be a very light one.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by WatchYourSix: 2:50pm On Jul 01, 2022
obailala:
Your desire to see the politician suffer unfortunately isnt enough for the Uk authorities to turn logic and due process on its head. Ekweremmadu did not need any signed agreement with the boy; if the boy is confirmed a minor, then yes the parents may have needed to sign before permitting him travel with the Ekweremadus. But if the boy is proven not to be a minor, the written consent becomes useless.

As an adult, the boy had the right of refusal up until the point in the hospital when the doctors were to start the procedure. Except it can be proven that Ekweremmadu pinned him down on the hospital bed or chained him to the bed against his will, I'm not sure how it can be proven that the senator was ripping off his organ against his will.

Exactly....even with a written and signed agreement letter..he can say hes not donating his kidney anymore at anytime he wishes
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by gbemi4real(m): 2:53pm On Jul 01, 2022
Be ware of those that think like this johnrake69; they are not well informed and they easily spread lies


Johnrake69:
Ike Ekweremadu will serve a jail term. Unless they're ready to completely sell Nigeria to UK because of him.

There's no way he will escape organ harvesting and human trafficking charge. Buying of Organ is illegal anywhere in the world.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Kaiser20: 2:55pm On Jul 01, 2022
BeeBeeOoh:
shocked

Forget matter, God has used the Ekweremadu's to butter David Ukpo's bread.

One thing that's sacrosanct is that he's gonna seek for aduro in UK and they'll give him better aduro to chop.
If you use 419 to chop Aduro in Europe and the authority finds out that your Aduro case is based on lies and propaganda will be declared illegal.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Jobola1: 2:55pm On Jul 01, 2022
triplechoice:


Maybe to reduce the gravity of the offence in order to receive a lighter sentence

Ok, let's take an organisation like NIMC. The boy's lawyer will first of all discredit them.
1. How was d data captured?
2. Who is in charge of data security?
3. What is the qualifications of d security team?
4. Are their certificates up to date?
5. Who has clearance to access NIMC info?
6. Has there being any data breach in d past?
7. How often does NIMC update their servers?
8. Is the data hosted by NIMC or a 3rd party?

Is is d UK court who should order for such docs in d first place. To worsen things, Gbajabiamila came out in public that they will apply diplomatic pressure. Nothing gives a UK judge more orgasm than that rubbish statement.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by jaxxy(m): 2:56pm On Jul 01, 2022
BeeBeeOoh:
shocked

Forget matter, God has used the Ekweremadu's to butter David Ukpo's bread.

One thing that's sacrosanct is that he's gonna seek for aduro in UK and they'll give him better aduro to chop.

After destroying innocent people reputation and lying to the UK government he will be deported b4 he commits more crimes there.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by ManOfSon: 2:58pm On Jul 01, 2022
fergie001:


SOURCE

Something is cooking.

Remember how they replaced Walter Onnoghen who did absolutely nothing with Tanko Muhammad who has ended up tanking the Nigerian Supreme Court & has been rewarded with a GCON by the guy who sent him on a mission.

The Nigerian immigration will now cook up some sh*t on this poor guy who was minding his life until Ekweremadu needed his kidney.




Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by PrincessofDSS(f): 3:00pm On Jul 01, 2022
This is not ending anytime soon, the boy may end up being deported back to Nigeria because I know his own side of the story is not 100% too
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by kozmokaz(m): 3:00pm On Jul 01, 2022
Eniitankorede:



It’s going to be tough but he is likely to be deported. They don’t joke with people giving false and misleading information with the aim to seek asylum. He will be jailed and deported.

Nope man

Under the new law for asylum seekers in the uk

He is qualified
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Kaiser20: 3:03pm On Jul 01, 2022
IamAsiri:


Pay his parents to enable their son go to prison or be killed in Nigeria after deportation? Really? grin
They can still kill the boy in UK if the need be.
They're many uncleared murder cases in UK police files till today.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Poanan: 3:05pm On Jul 01, 2022
tuoyoojo:
If truly the guy is not 15 as he claims ( something which his facial configuration does not collaborate going by how he looks in his photograph), the U.K govt may start questioning all his claims.

If he is found to be lying, then they would rule out the possibility of the former deputy Senate president offering him financial gratification in exchange for his organs ( which is a punishable offense)

If by chance the former deputy SP is found not guilty, then the young man would be locked up and after serving his sentence, quickly deported back to 9ja

But let's see how it pans out

The boy may not be locked he may be deported.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by WatchYourSix: 3:06pm On Jul 01, 2022
mployer:


It's illegal to buy a human organ. You are leveraging on the person weakness to abuse him.

If you buy someone as a slave, you the buyer will be prosecuted not the person that sold himself.

Look...if you want to lool at it from organ buying..it goes both ways...selling and buying is a crime in the uk...still people donate their kidney legally to save a life without disclosing the finacial compensation involved... u can check that on NHS website


Now...What you are not getting is that the courts cant prove the senator negotiated to buy his kidney for a price if theres no document or whatsapp chat to prove it...

Even if the boy said there was an agreement...
It will just be a situation of he said, i said, they said....that is not evidence in court


Besides...the boy cant even say they wanted to buy his kidney.....remeber the boy is already claiming they told him hes coming to get a job...amd magically found himself in the hospital....how can he now claim there was a negotiation??...

You are ignoring one fact...the senator clearly and officially disclosed the boy's reason for coming to the uk through medical visa and to donate his kidney? Thats cannot be tagged as force or deception in the court...

Thats why i told you the courts will need to prove the senator knows the boy is a minor before going ahead...otherwise its just a case between two adults...

I will give you my kidney...im not giving you again....


.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Poanan: 3:08pm On Jul 01, 2022
festacman:
Under normal situation, embassies take their time to scrutinize visa applications from young Nigerians. Numerous questions are asked and vital confirmations made before visa is issued.

Now, given that Senator Ekweremmadu wrote to the British High Commission stating clearly what David Ukpo Nwamini was traveling to do, did the High Commission officials not interrogate the applicant to confirm his mission before issuing visa?

And this question is important given that the boy denied knowing what he was traveling to do.

Exactly it will be difficult to defend. Cos there is a place u have to sign in the visa application form. Claiming ignorance may lessen punishment for him but the boy risks a ban of 10yrs for submittjng false information at the embassy.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Geopex(m): 3:08pm On Jul 01, 2022
On July 7, we will know if the case will b transfer to Nigeria or hold the court in UK. That's the final thing now..

1 Like

Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by mastermaestro(m): 3:09pm On Jul 01, 2022
Mickykarim:


HE MAY NOT KNOW THAT Biden DID NOT WIN THE ELECTION. HE WAS RIGGED IN. IN A LARGER LOCAL AND INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACY.

With the above did he get everything about the whole episode of conspiracy against the Ekweremadus.

https://www.nairaland.com/7193631/parenthood-tears-desperation-agony-ekweremadus

@FreeStuffsNG IS A BAD JUDGE, OBVIOUSLY.

Many people will say you are lying about the rigging aspect. Trump was removed from office through serious underground institutional rigging. Only ignorant people deny this glaring fact. That’s why Trump called for a rebellion against the results.

His intel was accurate, but the forces against him were too strong. Rightly so, till this moment he has refused to concede defeat nor congratulate Biden.

1 Like

Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by IamAsiri: 3:12pm On Jul 01, 2022
Kaiser20:

They can still kill the boy in UK if the need be.
They're many uncleared murder cases in UK police files till today.

Hmmm! embarassed

You are right. But I think the boy has a better chance of survival in UK than in Nigeria; in Nigeria, he is a goner.
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Firstcitizen: 3:22pm On Jul 01, 2022
BeeBeeOoh:
shocked

Forget matter, God has used the Ekweremadu's to butter David Ukpo's bread.

One thing that's sacrosanct is that he's gonna seek for aduro in UK and they'll give him better aduro to chop.
Yes they will grant him asylum and ship him to Rwanda. That is the current UK policy
Re: Court Orders Immigration, Others To Release Nwamini’s Details To Ekweremadu by Mickykarim: 3:25pm On Jul 01, 2022
mastermaestro:


Many people will say you are lying about the rigging aspect. Trump was removed from office through serious underground institutional rigging. Only ignorant people deny this glaring fact. That’s why Trump called for a rebellion against the results.

His intel was accurate, but the forces against him were too strong. Rightly so, till this moment he has refused to concede defeat nor congratulate Biden.

Brilliant.

The ignoramuses who deny the obvious cannot give you a meaningful counter argument. Damn too gullible people.

1 Like

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