Exnavyboy62:


If things go as planned, the Seaward Defence Boats 4&5 will get commissioned by 2025. We could equip them with maybe a Turkish ASELSAN smash 30mm RCWS.

The Chinese donated patrol boat to Nigeria is the same length as the SDBs 4&5 under construction, 46metres. Maybe we could study some tech on the donated patrol boat and improve on it, and apply it on the SDBs 4 &5 just like the way the Chinese study Russian weaponry and make an improved version

SDB 4 & 5 are not going as planned as they are behind schedule. Both projects should have come on stream by now, I believe they informed the President they would be completed in 12 months. That's not the case any longer.

Well, while you have a point, there's nothing revolutionary in small boat/vessel design. I don't see what the Navy would gain from a system they are already very proficient in building.

Also we have had NNS Sagbama in service for nearly 10 years now, it's a sister ship to this vessel that was donated to Nigeria.

Exnavyboy62:




In my opinion though, not sure it's going to happen, I think Nigeria should purchase the FA-50 Golden Eagle from South Korea since it has BVR capabilities and it is a multi-role aircraft that can carry out ground attacks and air interdictions and it costs 30 million dollars per unit compared to the JF-17 block 3 that is not a multi role aircraft

Where did you get this from

Kenyan soldiers have deployed to Goma in the DRC

Faithful007:
The real dogfighting has almost faded away. Why it was called dogfighting in the firstplace was because of how the two jets shadowed each other with aerobatics. What occurs now is more of witchhunting than dogfighting.

I'll give two reasons why dogfighting is dead. Modern jets like the F35 are slow and not maneuverable. The F22 will be retired sooner as well. Secondly I believe you have noticed in recent times how unfriendly nations often fly their aircraft close to each other's airspace in other to get intercepted. Only those outside Air force knowledge think they're trying to provoke a war. It is far from that. Actually it is more of a game. Both nations do those things to find out how quickly they can intercept or both intercepted. It is a way of testing readiness and evaluating the performance of their fighters against enemy aircraft.

Now why the emphasis on detection/interception? It is currently believed that when two powerful airforces fight, the key to aircraft survival lies in who first detects another and fires his weapon. This is known as BVR warfare.

I just remembered another reason. Cannons are heavily used in dogfighting. But currently they are being phased out. The F35's gun is detachable and is rarely mounted. The Chinese J-20 carries no gun at all. What do you think?

The battlefield of the future will be decided by Technology, Integrated warfare and logistics.

Just because the F35 JSF is a poorly maneuverable and dogfighter, doesn't mean that art is dying. The F22 raptors are gonna be in service past 2060 they're not getting retired any soon.

We talk as we don't remember what happened in the Vietnam War. How the first F 4 phantoms to arrive came without cannons. How the United States airforce presumed that the advent of the jet fighter had killed the dogfight culture.
We're presuming again. We're thinking that sixth gen fighters will change the battle field totally.

We don't get to understand that regardless that BVR warfare is being advanced day by day, BVR is just a part of air battle itself. It's just the first stage. What happens when an F35 misses his missile launch on a J20 and gets in contact? What happens when the missile won't launch because it's close range?
The F35s get toasted like F4 phantoms at the early stages of the Vietnam war.

I don't believe there was any air to air missile with atleast 70 to 80 percent success rate. The probability of combat to only stay at the BVR level is totally unassured.

Exnavyboy62:



I agree with you and you do have a point about the changing dynamics of air warfare.
Air forces of other parts of the world are drifting to stealth tech aircrafts. Stealth aircrafts might be costly and unnecessary for African air forces considering, unit costs, maintenance and the adversary they want to use it against but getting an aircraft with BVR capabilities is just ok if you ask me.

Egypt already has Rafale F3er and they can be upgraded to Rafale F-4 semi-stealth standard
Algeria is most likely going to receive the Su-57E
Morocco has the latest F16Vs and reports have are flying about that they are in talks with Israel to help them convince the US to sell F-35s to them
I don't know about the South Africa maybe they may want to patronise India for the HAL Tejas mk 1A with BVR capabilities because it's a fellow BRICS member or they will upgrade it's Gripens fleet to Gripen E /Gripen NG

In my opinion though, not sure it's going to happen, I think Nigeria should purchase the FA-50 Golden Eagle from South Korea since it has BVR capabilities and it is a multi-role aircraft that can carry out ground attacks and air interdictions and it costs 30 million dollars per unit compared to the JF-17 block 3 that is not a multi role aircraft

Technically, stealth aircrafts are not stealth we need to understand that.
Also, the jf17 is much advanced than the FA-50. We either purchase the jf17 block 3 or we get Chinese j10c or J31 when massed produced.

The jf17 is also a multirole lightweight fighter aircraft

Exnavyboy62:



I agree with you and you do have a point about the changing dynamics of air warfare.
Air forces of other parts of the world are drifting to stealth tech aircrafts. Stealth aircrafts might be costly and unnecessary for African air forces considering, unit costs, maintenance and the adversary they want to use it against but getting an aircraft with BVR capabilities is just ok if you ask me.

Egypt already has Rafale F3er and they can be upgraded to Rafale F-4 semi-stealth standard
Algeria is most likely going to receive the Su-57E
Morocco has the latest F16Vs and reports have are flying about that they are in talks with Israel to help them convince the US to sell F-35s to them
I don't know about the South Africa maybe they may want to patronise India for the HAL Tejas mk 1A with BVR capabilities because it's a fellow BRICS member or they will upgrade it's Gripens fleet to Gripen E /Gripen NG

In my opinion though, not sure it's going to happen, I think Nigeria should purchase the FA-50 Golden Eagle from South Korea since it has BVR capabilities and it is a multi-role aircraft that can carry out ground attacks and air interdictions and it costs 30 million dollars per unit compared to the JF-17 block 3 that is not a multi role aircraft

Well I wasn't even talking in terms of Africa. Africa is yet to evolve in many areas of warfare. For examples African armies are still stuck in the old style of completely crippling a city they intend to capture with artillery shells fired at almost random.

I was mostly talking in terms of fifth generation aircraft.

Faithful007:
The real dogfighting has almost faded away. Why it was called dogfighting in the firstplace was because of how the two jets shadowed each other with aerobatics. What occurs now is more of witchhunting than dogfighting.

I'll give two reasons why dogfighting is dead. Modern jets like the F35 are slow and not maneuverable. The F22 will be retired sooner as well. Secondly I believe you have noticed in recent times how unfriendly nations often fly their aircraft close to each other's airspace in other to get intercepted. Only those outside Air force knowledge think they're trying to provoke a war. It is far from that. Actually it is more of a game. Both nations do those things to find out how quickly they can intercept or both intercepted. It is a way of testing readiness and evaluating the performance of their fighters against enemy aircraft.

Now why the emphasis on detection/interception? It is currently believed that when two powerful airforces fight, the key to aircraft survival lies in who first detects another and fires his weapon. This is known as BVR warfare.

I just remembered another reason. Cannons are heavily used in dogfighting. But currently they are being phased out. The F35's gun is detachable and is rarely mounted. The Chinese J-20 carries no gun at all. What do you think?

The battlefield of the future will be decided by Technology, Integrated warfare and logistics.

US has this same reason during the Vietnam War with their newly introduced f4 phantom. Check how it plays out for them. While I believe missile and and seeker technologies has far improved compare to the Vietnam Era.

Faithful007:
Well I wasn't even talking in terms of Africa. Africa is yet to evolve in many areas of warfare. For examples African armies are still stuck in the old style of completely crippling a city they intend to capture with artillery shells fired at almost random.

I was mostly talking in terms of fifth generation aircraft.

That is how wars are fought, how do you intend to capture a city then?

Look at the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

The Americans targeted civilian infrastructure, power generation plants, dams and airports.

A fifth generation aircraft would not mean you any war without the supporting structure of other equally important military assets.

Stormtrooper11:



Technically, stealth aircrafts are not stealth we need to understand that.
Also, the jf17 is much advanced than the FA-50. We either purchase the jf17 block 3 or we get Chinese j10c or J31 when massed produced.

The jf17 is also a multirole lightweight fighter aircraft

At this point we need to hold on any fighter aircraft purchases, that is if all the expected aircrafts get delivered as expected.

Critically look at the best and most readily available platform to meet our current and future security needs.

That's my opinion.

kabe1:


First, I don't know who told you the F-35 is slow.

The F-35 has a top speed of Mach 1.6, that's nearly 2 times the speed of sound.

Dog fighting is not dead, please always cite sources when making comments.

In the war in Ukraine, we have seen multiple instances of dogfighting between aircrafts. There's a video of a Ukrainian SU-25 frogfoot chasing a Russian SU-25, there are other such instances from this war also.

The key advantage the F-35 has over any fighter jet currently in service is information processing.

The war in Ukraine has shown everybody access to information is the primary tool in winning battles and eventually wars.

The ability for the F-35 to communicate seamlessly with AWACS, UAVs, Satellite Systems, ground based infrastructure and other aircrafts ensures that the F-35 maintains a see first, kill first advantage over any aircraft/fighter.

Military systems cannot function effectively alone, the ability to share information across multiple streams determines how successful a system is.

Bruh this isn't even up for argument. And please, understand that speed is relative. For example, if I tell you that a car is slow, do I now mean that you can run faster than it?

Let me give you examples of typical fighter jet speeds: The F-4 phantom had a top speed of Mach 2.23, The F-111 top speed was 2.5, The MiG 23 was Mach 2.3. These were all third generation fighters. MIG-21 that you have in your inventory is 2.05. The notorious French mirage was 2.25. These are second generation fighters built in the 1950s after world war 2. The MiG -25 that gave the west goosebumps in the 1970s was mach 2.83. So understand it correctly when I say that the F35 is slow. 1.6 is way lower than even the earliest fighters of the 40s and 50s.

Also when I say that dogfighting is dead, I was talking in context of future major conflicts. Russia isn't fighting against a strong Airforce, so there is no need to waste missiles or use more advanced aircraft. The F22 was hardly used in Afghanistan. Even at that, most kills in Ukraine were still BVR. Many USAF generals have said it that dogfighting is gone so long as you're not fighting against a weak enemy. If Nigeria were at war with America, F16s are more than enough to liberate Nigeria's airspace.

I think your last points agreed with my post. The F35 carries a shitload of electronics for targeting and communications. The integration of target acquisition and communications is what I meant by integrated warfare. That is exactly the focus of the USAF and NATO. Integration and interoperability. At officer school or USAF Undergraduate pilot training you even have foreign military (NATO) teach students.

The last reason is why I find it absurd that people believe that have a foreign military on your soil for training purposes is bad. Heck! the US has way more foreign units and formations on her soil than any other country.

Stargate254:
KDF's deployment to DRC will have an air component after all.
Cessna caravan with ISR capability will also be deployed together with utility helicopters

USD 36.5 Million will be spent for the initial 6 months.

If the utility helicopter in question is the Huey II, they are mounted with guns to that will be additional air support

MD 530 F will also be deployed.

Kdf deployed to Congo

Stormtrooper11:


Just because the F35 JSF is a poorly maneuverable and dogfighter, doesn't mean that art is dying. The F22 raptors are gonna be in service past 2060 they're not getting retired any soon.

We talk as we don't remember what happened in the Vietnam War. How the first F 4 phantoms to arrive came without cannons. How the United States airforce presumed that the advent of the jet fighter had killed the dogfight culture.
We're presuming again. We're thinking that sixth gen fighters will change the battle field totally.

We don't get to understand that regardless that BVR warfare is being advanced day by day, BVR is just a part of air battle itself. It's just the first stage. What happens when an F35 misses his missile launch on a J20 and gets in contact? What happens when the missile won't launch because it's close range?
The F35s get toasted like F4 phantoms at the early stages of the Vietnam war.

I don't believe there was any air to air missile with atleast 70 to 80 percent success rate. The probability of combat to only stay at the BVR level is totally unassured.

It is not a question of what if's. The point is that with advancement in radars, you cannot survive getting close enough to where a dogfight is necessary.

Tinfoil:


Classic neocolonialism

What has Kenya gained for it's people by having a British military base in it's country? All the major infrastructure development is done by the Chinese. I don't think the US or British have built anything in Kenya apart from making promises that they lie to them to make them do what they want.

This is what we call lazy thinking.

kabe1:


That is how wars are fought, how do you intend to capture a city then?

Look at the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

The Americans targeted civilian infrastructure, power generation plants, dams and airports.

A fifth generation aircraft would not mean you any war without the supporting structure of other equally important military assets.

I don't mean it in a tactical way. I mean random shelling without purpose, due to the lack of proper scouting and precise targeting.

Close to a million civilians died in the Tigray war, most from shelling.

Simeonjoe1:


US has this same reason during the Vietnam War with their newly introduced f4 phantom. Check how it plays out for them. While I believe missile and and seeker technologies has far improved compare to the Vietnam Era.

I know about that. This case isn't because of missiles but how highly advanced detection has become.

NTSA:
administration police kenya

The AP recruits during training ...All that is remaining now is the Pass out parade as the peak of basic recruit training done.

Odunayaw:
Where did you get this from

Yeessh, my bad I must have been mis-informed

kabe1:


SDB 4 & 5 are not going as planned as they are behind schedule. Both projects should have come on stream by now, I believe they informed the President they would be completed in 12 months. That's not the case any longer.

Well, while you have a point, there's nothing revolutionary in small boat/vessel design. I don't see what the Navy would gain from a system they are already very proficient in building.

Also we have had NNS Sagbama in service for nearly 10 years now, it's a sister ship to this vessel that was donated to Nigeria.

Ohh yeah you are right about that. I remember the CNS saying something about the SDBs being ready in 12months time but it truly doesn't seem like it. We are likely going to see them get commissioned alongside one of the Dearsan OPV 76 vessels in 2025 I guess

And speaking of projects not going as planned, does anyone know anything about the Ichkou UCAV?? Since 2017, it's been 5 years and no drone yet.
NASENI is also taking it's time to give us first locally made helicopter.
The Army and NASRDA haven't shown anything on the "Comot for Road missile" yet.
We are still managing the 30.1mm rockets by the airforce for base defence. It all comes down to the blame on lack of funds but I can't help but think that lack of technical know-how is also responsible.

We can't expect to have a thriving defence industry with this kind of delays and low turnout in weapons production. Since the 1960s, our defence industry still seems like it's in it's infant stages. The !nd!ans have been manufacturing since the British partition in 1947 and they've really gotten far, though the Russians helped them in tech transfer and technical know-how.

NTSA:

The AP recruits during training ...All that is remaining now is the Pass out parade as the peak of basic recruit training done.

The AP ( administration police) Kenya ...is Kenya's equivalent of the Spanish Guardia Seville.

Nigeria air force ATR42 ISR aircraft

Toju200:
Nigeria air force ATR42 ISR aircraft

ISR aircraft or Maritime Patrol aircraft??
Well it's still the same function the aircraft performs.

Faithful007:
Bruh this isn't even up for argument. And please, understand that speed is relative. For example, if I tell you that a car is slow, do I now mean that you can run faster than it?

Let me give you examples of typical fighter jet speeds: The F-4 phantom had a top speed of Mach 2.23, The F-111 top speed was 2.5, The MiG 23 was Mach 2.3. These were all third generation fighters. MIG-21 that you have in your inventory is 2.05. The notorious French mirage was 2.25. These are second generation fighters built in the 1950s after world war 2. The MiG -25 that gave the west goosebumps in the 1970s was mach 2.83. So understand it correctly when I say that the F35 is slow. 1.6 is way lower than even the earliest fighters of the 40s and 50s.

You pick up figures from Wikipedia and post on this thread.

You claimed the F-35 is slow, so I'm asking you an aircraft that's flies nearly 2 times the speed of sound, would you consider that aircraft slow ?

"The F-35, while not technically a “supercruising” aircraft, can maintain Mach 1.2 for a dash of 242km without using fuel-gulping afterburners."

The other aircrafts you mentioned need afterburners to fly supersonic.

So which aircraft is faster?

Faithful007:


Also when I say that dogfighting is dead, I was talking in context of future major conflicts. Russia isn't fighting against a strong Airforce, so there is no need to waste missiles or use more advanced aircraft. The F22 was hardly used in Afghanistan. Even at that, most kills in Ukraine were still BVR. Many USAF generals have said it that dogfighting is gone so long as you're not fighting against a weak enemy. If Nigeria were at war with America, F16s are more than enough to liberate Nigeria's airspace.

I think your last points agreed with my post. The F35 carries a shitload of electronics for targeting and communications. The integration of target acquisition and communications is what I meant by integrated warfare. That is exactly the focus of the USAF and NATO. Integration and interoperability. At officer school or USAF Undergraduate pilot training you even have foreign military (NATO) teach students.

The last reason is why I find it absurd that people believe that have a foreign military on your soil for training purposes is bad. Heck! the US has way more foreign units and formations on her soil than any other country.

I agree with you on the data processing of the F-35, no aircraft comes close.

Where I disagree with you is on dogfighting in modern warfare. While BVR engagements will continue to advance the war in Ukraine is the most modern conflict since the Korean war.

We have seen both BVR and dogfighting aerial engagement between aircrafts, we have seen EW, SEAD and NOE engagement and flying respectively by all aircrafts engaged in this conflict.

We have seen the importance of artillery, guided shells and guided rocket artillery in this conflict too. From a neutral stand point, there's so much to learn for observing military commanders.

On foreign military bases, I'm on the fence. There are merits and demerits of having foreign military bases on home soil.

My primary demerit is ease of foreign interference in local politics.

The benefits are also great, your forces train regularly with first rate militaries. With overall increase in professionalism, better equipment for troops and updated operational SOPs.

Faithful007:
I don't mean it in a tactical way. I mean random shelling without purpose, due to the lack of proper scouting and precise targeting.

Close to a million civilians died in the Tigray war, most from shelling.

We've not really seen a major African conflict, the big countries seem to have modern artillery systems. Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Nigeria all have modern artillery and precision guided weaponry.

Information on the civil war in Ethiopia is very scarce, so I cannot give an opinion on the conflict.

Odunayaw:
Where did you get this from

the bra said the f22 will be retired soon and you are worried about the bolded?

jl115:
the bra said the f22 will be retired soon and you are worried about the bolded?

I had to pick the most outrageous one especially since it concerns Nigeria

jl115:
the bra said the f22 will be retired soon and you are worried about the bolded?

Lol, he makes silly mistakes which is normal; obviously f22 can't be retired now due to it being america premier aircraft after f35

kabe1:


First, I don't know who told you the F-35 is slow.

The F-35 has a top speed of Mach 1.6, that's nearly 2 times the speed of sound.

Dog fighting is not dead, please always cite sources when making comments.

In the war in Ukraine, we have seen multiple instances of dogfighting between aircrafts. There's a video of a Ukrainian SU-25 frogfoot chasing a Russian SU-25, there are other such instances from this war also.

The key advantage the F-35 has over any fighter jet currently in service is information processing.

The war in Ukraine has shown everybody access to information is the primary tool in winning battles and eventually wars.

The ability for the F-35 to communicate seamlessly with AWACS, UAVs, Satellite Systems, ground based infrastructure and other aircrafts ensures that the F-35 maintains a see first, kill first advantage over any aircraft/fighter.

Military systems cannot function effectively alone, the ability to share information across multiple streams determines how successful a system is.

On point, if not f-16 and hornets would have been retired

Faithful007:


Not a day will pass here without someone obsessing over the West. Folks obsessing and going crazy. Is it now a crime to train together with partner forces? At least the British are paying rent. There are many countries without any foreign military presence in Africa. I guess they are the best countries in Africa right now?

Even if the British start to build anything in Kenya, you will be the first to tell us how that is a trojan horse and a plot to destabilize Kenya
If you don't like the base, this isn't where to complain. Go to the base and tell them to go.

Why are you so butthurt?

You say, " even if," because the British will probably never build anything for Kenya except give them promises to string them along

kabe1:


You pick up figures from Wikipedia and post on this thread.

You claimed the F-35 is slow, so I'm asking you an aircraft that's flies nearly 2 times the speed of sound, would you consider that aircraft slow ?

"The F-35, while not technically a “supercruising” aircraft, can maintain Mach 1.2 for a dash of 242km without using fuel-gulping afterburners."

The other aircrafts you mentioned need afterburners to fly supersonic.

So which aircraft is faster?

You always want to win arguments even when you have no reasonable point to make

Please watch attentively maybe you will understand what's his trying to say


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbVRxuYHm10

MAN1960:



You always want to win arguments even when you have no reasonable point to make

Please watch attentively maybe you will understand what's his trying to say

Are you delusional?

What do you mean by win arguments, I'm providing statement of facts and you are talking about win argument. "Are you a child?".