₦airaland Forum

AntiChristian:
It's none of my business whatever you use as all of you have been using some material already from antimuslim sites!

Okay. Thanks for the oportunity to use shia literatatures

You want to change topic, jumping about like monkeys on the tree?
I'll oblige you.

AntiChristian:
Why was the New testament in Greek when Jesus was Hebrew?
All the "Thalita kum", "Eli Eli Lamar Sabacthani" were in what language?

Hebrew was the language of the Jewish scholars, of Worship and of the scriptures. But Jesus's "everyday" spoken language was Aramaic. This was why many Jews did not understand Jesus saying in Hebrew "Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani" and they thought he was calling Elijah. By the way, hebrew fell out of use because of several years of slavery thus mst people spoke syrian language Aramaic.
Matthew 27:47
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He is calling Elijah.”

Jesus was learned, He spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic.

AntiChristian:
Except you can prove that paradise has already been opened in your Bible and people have started entering it.
The Jehovah witness do not believe in those new paradise or hell you believe in!
So I still stay with my previous opinion! There was no comma in what Jesus said!
Even if your Jesus died for three days. He didn't go to any paradise with anyone!
The verse is simply an example of fallacy of accent. And they're are more examples! Trinitarians made Jesus into what he's not!

And i used your PREFERRED rendition didn't I !?
I said:

Luk 23:42-43:
"42. And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.
43. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise."

It DOESN'T Change ANYTHING about the power of Christ to guarantee Paradise for anyone.

According to the bible, the place called Paradise in NOT on earth. It is a depiction of a place in Heaven.
2Corinthian 12: 4
After the Judgement, the Bible speaks of a NEW heaven and a NEW Earth, this is the destination of the Righteous.
Revelation 21:1-2

AntiChristian:
I have answered you appropriately!
1. The word of Allah "be" is not Jesus!
Whenever He intends to create anything Allah says to it "be" and it exist.

So whatever Allah wishes to die will die!
Everything Allah created is a word from Allah! They will all die except Allah!

I never siad that you said that Jesus was "BE"!
I said:
Jesus was not created by BE!
This was how Jesus was "created" according to the Quran. Allah stated clearly
Quran 21:91
"And the one who guarded her vagina, so We blew into her through Our angel, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds."
Quran 66:12
"And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded Vagina , so We blew into her through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient."

Is BLOWING the same as COMMANDING?
There was no "BE"!

I ASKED YOU:
Can ANY of the Attribute of God DIE?
Are you saying that Allah can cause any of His attributes to die and He still remain Allah?

AntiChristian:
2. Once again Allah is not a spirit nor has a spirit! He created the spirit into Adam and Jesus. The breath of Allah as regards Jesus is same as breath on Adam. Adam died! Jesus too will! Angels are sent at a point to validate each of the fertilizations that takes place!

How do you know that Allah is not a SPIRIT?
Prove that Allah is NOT a Spirit with just one Quran verse. LOL!!

Allah says on the issue of spirits you have been given little knowledge.

AntiChristian:
3. Spirit is not an attribute of Allah! Word of Allah too! As i have highlighted "word of Allah" can mean the books of Allah!
They are just Jesus nickname friend of Allah of Ibrahim!

In this context of discuss, Nafs and Spirit is the same!

It's a common misconception that a human is composed of body, soul and spirit. But Adam was created from earth!

Allah breath into him the soul/spirit! Same in Genesis!

As regards "Ruh", it's the same as spirit! And it can be also be Angel Gabriel depending on the context! It's a creation of Allah!

When we die we enter another world which is where we exist till the day of resurrection! We remain dead to this world!

Jesus did not die. Christians says he died!
So if he died and he's one with God then they all died together! And if he died alone then when he's dead only the father and spirit remain! This is duality!

But on the cross he questioned his father for abandoning him.

How can Ruh be the same as Nafs?
Did Allah say he hasn't given you knowledge of the Nafs? Of course he did!
Of course I understand that as Muslims you don't know much about the Ruh therefore it would be impossible for you to make any equivocal statement about them. Anything you say about the Ruh is a conjecture. The Ruh (spirit) is different from the Nafs(soul) my dear. Does the Qur'an not speak about the three states of the Nafs (Nafs-ul-Ammarah, Nafs-ul-Lawwamah and Nafs-ul-Mutmainnah)? Allah/Mohammed did not explain to you Muslims what the Ruh is!

Anything you say about the Ruh is a conjecture: stay with that truth!

As Christians, we know the Difference between the Body, the Soul and the Spirit. In fact God is a Spirit.
Jesus said:
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Another verse
[b]2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.[/b]

All you can say of the Ruh is CONJECTURES : if NOT, I Challenge you to prove all your assertions with the Quran.


The major Question I asked was
If it is true that Jesus died,
1. Can the Word of Allah die?
2. Can the Spirit of Allah die?
3. Can a Messanger of Allah die?

A simpler Question:
Is it true that you Muslims claim that the Quran is Eternal!?
If so:
Can the Quran die?

AntiChristian:
I don't know why they behave like that when they know the truth!

The concept of God/god (Elohim) in the Bible is deceptive and can easily be translated as one wishes.

Son of God
In the Bible we see that Moses was God for Pharaoh, Satan is the God of the world, Sons of God came to sleep with humans, God fought Jacob and lost, Jesus is the son of God, Even you are Gods. Most of these Gods are from "Elohim" in Hebrew. Elohim which can be translated as "gods" can be used in the singular sense for God, for god, Angels, Superhuman, and for people of authority such as a Judge or ruler.

Elohim as God aka Yahweh
Take note that in Gen 1:1 In the Beginning God (Elohim) created the heaven and earth. It is not Gods!

Used as gods
Now I know that the LORD (Yahweh) is greater than all other gods (Elohim), for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.” Exo 18:11 It is now gods! when referring to idols!

“Whoever sacrifices to any god (Elohim) other than the LORD (Yahweh) must be destroyed. Exo 22:20

As an Angel (Cos i don't think Jacob can fight a real God.)
“Your name will no longer be Jacob,” the man told him. “From now on you will be called Israel, because you have fought with God(Elohim) and with men and have won.” Gen 32:28

Humans are God (Elohim)
Then the LORD (Yahweh) said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. Exo 7:1

“I said, ‘You are “gods" (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.’ Psalm 82:6

Elohim simply mean Deity!

It is a generic term for the god /God you worship.

It is like the English word for Deity, god/God . The context defines which God.

If a Muslim say God, he means Allah
If a Christian or Jew say God, he means Yahweh
If an Idol worshiper say God, he means his particular deity!


Same with Elohim or Eloha

the Christianity you all church-goers are practicing is called pagan-christianity that's how Judaism sees you people. in same breathe you will say Jesus is God, so your God died on the cross in exchange for what exactly...? In the same breathe again you will say he himself based on the idea of trinitarian belief he is his own son...even your Bible can't tell the exact instrument he died on....the adoption of the cross symbol into Christianity was 100% a pagan relic. been there before and done that...I rather take my chances at following the path i feel at peace with than be spiritually brainwashed with obscured confusions

TenQ:
Elohim simply mean Deity!

It is a generic term for the god /God you worship.

It is like the English word for Deity, god/God . The context defines which God.

If a Muslim say God, he means Allah
If a Christian or Jew say God, he means Yahweh
If an Idol worshiper say God, he means his particular deity!


Same with Elohim or Eloha

This is not true as proven from the Bible!

AntiChristian:
This is not true as proven from the Bible!

First, what is your definition of deity?

And what is not true about Elohim meaning deity?

TenQ:
First, what is your definition of deity?

And what is not true about Elohim meaning deity?

Deity is something worthy of worship! More like God!
In your Bible, Elohim can mean Satan, Angel, gods, God or Human!

Only God is the deity! Others are not!

TenQ:
Elohim simply mean Deity!

It is a generic term for the god /God you worship.

It is like the English word for Deity, god/God . The context defines which God.

If a Muslim say God, he means Allah
If a Christian or Jew say God, he means Yahweh
If an Idol worshiper say God, he means his particular deity!


Same with Elohim or Eloha

AntiChristian:
Deity is something worthy of worship! More like God!
In your Bible, Elohim can mean Satan, Angel, gods, God or Human!

Only God is the deity! Others are not!

Do you want to Redefine a word to suit what you desire?

There is only one True Deity - the Creator of Everything.

However, deities are anything revered for Worship.

DICTIONARY:
Definition
1a: the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY
: GOD sense 1, SUPREME BEING
2: a god (see GOD entry 1 sense 2) or goddess
//the deities of ancient Greece
3: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful


What does your own dictionary call deity?

AntiChristian:
Deity is something worthy of worship! More like God!
In your Bible, Elohim can mean Satan, Angel, gods, God or Human!

Only God is the deity! Others are not!

Do you want to Redefine a word to suit what you desire? Anything worshiped is a deity! All the gods of the ATR are deities?

There is only one True Deity - the Creator of Everything.

However, deities are anything revered for Worship or their supernatural nature's or abilities/attributes.

DICTIONARY:
Definition
1a: the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY
: GOD sense 1, SUPREME BEING
2: a god (see GOD entry 1 sense 2) or goddess
//the deities of ancient Greece
3: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful


What does your own dictionary call deity?

TenQ:
Do you want to Redefine a word to suit what you desire? Anything worshiped is a deity! All the gods of the ATR are deities?

There is only one True Deity - the Creator of Everything.

However, deities are anything revered for Worship.

DICTIONARY:
Definition
1a: the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY
: GOD sense 1, SUPREME BEING
2: a god (see GOD entry 1 sense 2) or goddess
//the deities of ancient Greece
3: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful


What does your own dictionary call deity?

So explain how Satan, Moses and Angel qualify as Elohim in the Bible?

AntiChristian:
So explain how Satan, Moses and Angel qualify as Elohim in the Bible?

Because they are deities to men as they are revered for their supernatural attributes!

When men sometimes see angels, don't they tremble before them?

Doesn't pharaoh tremble because of the supernatural powers of Moses?

Isn't satan the god of this world?

TenQ:
Okay. Thanks for the oportunity to use shia literatatures

You want to change topic, jumping about like monkeys on the tree?
I'll oblige you.

I have never questioned you on the heretic materials you use! I see no reason why you should act like a wild kid telling me you'll use so and so material!
Use whatever you like! If i have time i will keep proving your lies/inanities!

Hebrew was the language of the Jewish scholars, of Worship and of the scriptures. But Jesus's "everyday" spoken language was Aramaic. This was why many Jews did not understand Jesus saying in Hebrew "Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani" and they thought he was calling Elijah. By the way, hebrew fell out of use because of several years of slavery thus mst people spoke syrian language Aramaic.
Matthew 27:47
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He is calling Elijah.”

Jesus was learned, He spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic.

Yeah, we know Jesus was learned That's why much of his life is unknown in the Bible! Only about 5 years out of 33 years of Jesus is recorded in the Bible.

And i used your PREFERRED rendition didn't I !?
I said:

Where and when did i give you my preferred rendition? What if my rendition is Queen James Bible?

According to the bible, the place called Paradise in NOT on earth. It is a depiction of a place in Heaven.
2Corinthian 12: 4
After the Judgement, the Bible speaks of a NEW heaven and a NEW Earth, this is the destination of the Righteous.
Revelation 21:1-2

After death, na grave then Judgment!
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Matthew 25: 31-34

I never siad that you said that Jesus was "BE"!
I said:
Jesus was not created by BE!
This was how Jesus was "created" according to the Quran. Allah stated clearly
Quran 21:91
"And the one who guarded her vagina, so We blew into her through Our angel, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds."
Quran 66:12
"And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded Vagina , so We blew into her through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient."

Is BLOWING the same as COMMANDING?
There was no "BE"!

Yes it is.
I think i have told you taking one or two verses and dropping other verses about a point will only make you present falsehood!
Allah says "Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All­ Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (Qur'an 4:171)

I ASKED YOU:
Can ANY of the Attribute of God DIE?
Are you saying that Allah can cause any of His attributes to die and He still remain Allah?

What do you mean by the "attribute of God" dying?
Attribute is a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
How can death be used to qualify it?

How do you know that Allah is not a SPIRIT?
Prove that Allah is NOT a Spirit with just one Quran verse. LOL!!

Allah says on the issue of spirits you have been given little knowledge.

I am not the one to prove anything here! Bring your evidence that Allah said he is what you claim!
It is said in your Bible that God is spirit and all those who worship Him must do so in spirit John 4:24.

Allah is not a "Spirit"!
The spirit or soul is not one of the attributes of Allaah, rather it is one of the things that have been created by Allaah. It is mentioned in conjunction with Allaah in some texts by way of honouring, for Allaah is its Creator and Sovereign, He takes it (in death) whenever He wills and He sends it whenever He wills.

What we say about the spirit is the same as what we say about the “House of Allaah”, the “she-camel of Allaah”, the “slaves of Allaah” and the “Messenger of Allaah”. All of these created things are mentioned in conjunction with Allaah by way of honouring.

How can Ruh be the same as Nafs?
Did Allah say he hasn't given you knowledge of the Nafs? Of course he did!
Of course I understand that as Muslims you don't know much about the Ruh therefore it would be impossible for you to make any equivocal statement about them. Anything you say about the Ruh is a conjecture. The Ruh (spirit) is different from the Nafs(soul) my dear. Does the Qur'an not speak about the three states of the Nafs (Nafs-ul-Ammarah, Nafs-ul-Lawwamah and Nafs-ul-Mutmainnah)? Allah/Mohammed did not explain to you Muslims what the Ruh is!

Anything you say about the Ruh is a conjecture: stay with that truth!

Quote evidences with reference for your claims! That's how we know you are not telling lies!

Sometimes 'al-Nafs' means 'al-Rooh' (the soul), as the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) mentioned in the long Hadith describing the state while one breathing his last. 'The angel stands at the head of a dying person and says: "O good peaceful soul, come out to the rest and provision of Allah'. The Angel says, If the dying person is a Kafir', 'O bad malicious soul, come out to the Anger of Allah …" . [Reported by Ahmad ].
Sometimes 'al-Nafs' means both the body and soul. The evidence for that is Allah's Statement: {… And they did not wrong Us but they wronged (Their Nafs) i.e. themselves.} [ Qur'an 2: 57]

As Christians, we know the Difference between the Body, the Soul and the Spirit. In fact God is a Spirit.
Jesus said:
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Another verse
[b]2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.[/b]

All you can say of the Ruh is CONJECTURES : if NOT, I Challenge you to prove all your assertions with the Quran.

When Adam was created where did you see Body, soul and spirit? All those claims are unfounded! The best explanation is that soul=Spirit even from your Bible.
Anyways, i await your proofs from the Qur'an cos i haven't seen any!

The major Question I asked was
If it is true that Jesus died,
1. Can the Word of Allah die?

Word of Allah i.e. the Qur'an, Injeel, etc. Books have no Soul. Hence they can't die! Every creation will die!

2. Can the Spirit of Allah die?

Allah has no spirit! So this question is faulty!

3. Can a Messanger of Allah die?

Every creation will die! This includes messengers!

A simpler Question:
Is it true that you Muslims claim that the Quran is Eternal!?
If so:
Can the Quran die?

Waste of time!

How can a Book die?
The Qur’an is the word of Allah, may He be exalted, and is not created

What is meant by that is that Allah, may He be exalted, spoke the words of the Qur’an, which Jibreel (peace be upon him) heard from Him, and brought down to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and conveyed it to him.

All of the attributes of Allah, may He be exalted, are uncreated; they are eternal, with no beginning. The words of Allah are among these attributes, and that includes the Qur’an. Therefore the scholars said that the Qur’an is not created, because it is the words of Allah, and that is one of His attributes.

With regard to people’s actions, they are created. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“While Allah has created you and what you do [or make]” [as-Saaffaat 37:96]

TenQ:
Because they are deities to men as they are revered for their supernatural attributes!

When men sometimes see angels, don't they tremble before them?

Doesn't pharaoh tremble because of the supernatural powers of Moses?

Isn't satan the god of this world?

Mention who dey were deities to as the time the Biblical narration was made?

Satan is not the Elohim of this world!

Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. Deuteronomy 10:14

The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it. Psalm 24:1

In whose hand are the depths of the earth,
The peaks of the mountains are His also.
The sea is His, for it was He who made it,
And His hands formed the dry land. Psalm 95:4-5

Moses said to him, “As soon as I go out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord; the thunder will cease and there will be hail no longer, that you may know that the earth is the Lord’s. Exodus 9:29

It shall come about when the soles of the feet of the priests who carry the ark of the Lord, the Lord of all the earth, rest in the waters of the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan will be cut off, and the waters which are flowing down from above will stand in one heap.” Joshua 3:13

See illogical excuses!

So because people see them as deity then your God that inspired the Bible too called them Elohim?
Makes no sense!

AntiChristian:
Mention who dey were deities to as the time the Biblical narration was made?

Satan is not the Elohim of this world!

Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. Deuteronomy 10:14

The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it. Psalm 24:1

In whose hand are the depths of the earth,
The peaks of the mountains are His also.
The sea is His, for it was He who made it,
And His hands formed the dry land. Psalm 95:4-5

Moses said to him, “As soon as I go out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord; the thunder will cease and there will be hail no longer, that you may know that the earth is the Lord’s. Exodus 9:29

It shall come about when the soles of the feet of the priests who carry the ark of the Lord, the Lord of all the earth, rest in the waters of the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan will be cut off, and the waters which are flowing down from above will stand in one heap.” Joshua 3:13

See illogical excuses!

So because people see them as deity then your God that inspired the Bible too called them Elohim?
Makes no sense!

Of course the Creator of the Earth and everything within it OWNS the earth.
2Cor 4:4:
"In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them."


Why is EVIL prevalent in this world? Is it not because people follow the dictates of Satan their god?

MrCodeSolo:
the Christianity you all church-goers are practicing is called
pagan-christianity that's how Judaism sees you people. in
same breathe you will say Jesus is God, so your God died on
the cross in exchange for what exactly...? In the same breathe
again you will say he himself based on the idea of trinitarian
belief he is his own son...even your Bible can't tell the exact
instrument he died on....the adoption of the cross symbol into
Christianity was 100% a pagan relic. been there before and
done that...I rather take my chances at following the path i feel
at peace with than be spiritually brainwashed with obscured
confusions

So, next time I call you out to speak about Islam that gives you peace, don't hide and pretend you didn't see me!

Ka ji ko?
LOL!

AntiChristian:
I have never questioned you on the heretic materials you use! I see no reason why you should act like a wild kid telling me you'll use so and so material!
Use whatever you like! If i have time i will keep proving your lies/inanities!

Thanks for your advice. I don't want you to have any excuse before "awon omo ile kewu" when the run coming to you for explanations to what TenQ said. It would be too convenient for you to say, "Don't mind him, he is using Shia sources!". I am okay to use your sahih hadiths and Tafsirs of Sunni Muslims.

AntiChristian:
Yeah, we know Jesus was learned That's why much of his life is unknown in the Bible! Only about 5 years out of 33 years of Jesus is recorded in the Bible.

And Qutham aka Mohammed lived for 40 years with nothing known about him!?
You want to tell us some history!?

AntiChristian:
Where and when did i give you my preferred rendition? What if my rendition is Queen James Bible?

Did you say this

AntiChristian:
Actually, the comma in the above sentence you quoted was put there by trinitarians!
Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, truly I say unto you Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."
This is called the fallacy of accent
Luke 23:43 (NASB) says, "And he said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise,'" indicating that Jesus will be with the malefactor in Paradise later that same day. But if the comma is moved to the other side of "today," an entirely different emphasis results: "Truly I say to you today, you shall (in the future) be with me in Paradise." This is, in fact the correct rendering.

Your prefered rendering

AntiChristian:
After death, na grave then Judgment!
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Matthew 25: 31-34

Is this not the resurrection (Recombining of the soul and spirit of man with his physical body)?
Are you insinuating that at death (just as the JW), a person is in oblivion?

AntiChristian:
Yes it is.
I think i have told you taking one or two verses and dropping other verses about a point will only make you present falsehood!
Allah says "Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All­ Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (Qur'an 4:171)

Two verses Quran 21:91 and Quran 66:12 agree with each other and Quran 3:59 is a contradiction.
Is the command to "BE" the same as LIFTING UP Mary's garment and BLOWING into her Vagina ?

If it is NOT a contradiction please explain:
Did Allah first lift up Marys garment, then blowing into her Vagina the same as command "BE"!
OR
Which of the two sets of action happened first?

Please, deal with the OBVIOUS contradiction.

AntiChristian:
What do you mean by the "attribute of God" dying?
Attribute is a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
How can death be used to qualify it?

God's Power
God's Word
God's Spirit
God's Knowledge
God's Life
God's Prescience
These are all attributes of God

Can ANY of the attributes of God CEASE to exist?

AntiChristian:
I am not the one to prove anything here! Bring your evidence that Allah said he is what you claim!
It is said in your Bible that God is spirit and all those who worship Him must do so in spirit John 4:24.

Allah is not a "Spirit"!
The spirit or soul is not one of the attributes of Allaah, rather it is one of the things that have been created by Allaah. It is mentioned in conjunction with Allaah in some texts by way of honouring, for Allaah is its Creator and Sovereign, He takes it (in death) whenever He wills and He sends it whenever He wills.

What we say about the spirit is the same as what we say about the “House of Allaah”, the “she-camel of Allaah”, the “slaves of Allaah” and the “Messenger of Allaah”. All of these created things are mentioned in conjunction with Allaah by way of honouring.

Prove from the Quran that Allah is NOT a Spirit! QED
Otherwise, it is a conjecture
Quran 17:85
They ask you about "the spirit". Say: "The spirit descends by the command of my Lord, but you have been given only a little knowledge."

Let me help you out from the Quran

A. What is the "Spirit" (Ruh) in the Qur'an:
The Spirit is a singular entity in the Qur'an as follows:

The Spirit is from God's Command and we know little about it (17:85)
The Spirit brings the revelation to the Prophet's heart (26:192-195)
The Spirit belongs to God and He calls it "My Spirit" (15:28-29)
The angels are all connected to the Spirit; in another sense, the Spirit is the centre of all the angels (78:38)
God helps the Prophets like Jesus with the Spirit (2:87, 2:253, 5:110)
Jesus is called the "Spirit from Him" (4:171)
God inspired the Prophet Muhammad with the Spirit (42:52)
God strengthens the believers with the Spirit (16:102. 58:22)
God sends down the Spirit from His Command upon his Servants (16:2, 40:15)
God breathed into Mary from the Spirit (21:19, 66:12)
The Spirit can take on a human image or form (19:17)
The Spirit both descends from God and ascends to God (70:4, 97:4)
God sent the Qur'an with the Spirit (16:102, 26:193)
God breathed into Adam "from My Spirit" (min ruhee). Note this is different from God breathing the Spirit as a whole into Adam. (15:29, 38:72)

B. What is the "Soul" (nafs) in the Qur'an:

The soul has been created and proportioned by God (91:
God has inspired the soul with the knowledge of what is right and wrong (91:9)
The one who succeeds is he who has purified and caused his soul to grow (91:8-12)
The soul will be judged in the hereafter and will receive what it has earned (2:281, 3:25, 3:30)
The soul is capable of commanding one to do evil (12:53, 50:16, 79:40)The soul is capable of censoring itself (75:2)
The soul at peace is admitted into Paradise (89:27)Good deeds are done for the soul`s benefit (2:223)
The soul can be strengthened through spending in God`s way (2:265)
The soul will taste and experience death (3:185)
The soul can wrong or or destroy ruin itself, or commit sins and then seek pardon (4:110, 6:12, 6:20, 7:53, 9:42)
The soul has desires (5:70) Allah receives souls when they die (39:42)

https://ask.ismailignosis.com/article/122-soul-nafs-and-spirit-ruh

AntiChristian:
Quote evidences with reference for your claims! That's how we know you are not telling lies!

Sometimes 'al-Nafs' means 'al-Rooh' (the soul), as the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) mentioned in the long Hadith describing the state while one breathing his last. 'The angel stands at the head of a dying person and says: "O good peaceful soul, come out to the rest and provision of Allah'. The Angel says, If the dying person is a Kafir', 'O bad malicious soul, come out to the Anger of Allah …" . [Reported by Ahmad ].
Sometimes 'al-Nafs' means both the body and soul. The evidence for that is Allah's Statement: {… And they did not wrong Us but they wronged (Their Nafs) i.e. themselves.} [ Qur'an 2: 57]

Your evidence above: enough Quran to support. LOL!
Ruh means the Spirit
Nafs can mean either the SOUL or the union of the BODY and SOUL

AntiChristian:
When Adam was created where did you see Body, soul and spirit? All those claims are unfounded! The best explanation is that soul=Spirit even from your Bible.
Anyways, i await your proofs from the Qur'an cos i haven't seen any!

After you show me that according to Islam the Ruh or the Nafs of a person is VISIBLE!

AntiChristian:
Word of Allah i.e. the Qur'an, Injeel, etc. Books have no Soul. Hence they can't die! Every creation will die!
Allah has no spirit! So this question is faulty!
Every creation will die! This includes messengers!

Don't be a dummy!
You very well know that I refer not to BOOKS. Is your Allah's words bound only in books? Does Allah not SPEAK?
Is the Word of Allah not an Attribute of Allah?
The Word of Allah is the SPOKEN WORDS OF ALLAH!

So, can the Spoken Words of Allah EXTINGUISH/CEASE TO EXIST (DIE)?

AntiChristian:
Waste of time!

وَكَلِمَتُهُۥٓ ==And his WORD
وَرُوحٌۭ مِّنْهُ ۖ == And a SPIRIT from him

Quran 4:171
يَـٰٓأَهْلَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ لَا تَغْلُوا۟ فِى دِينِكُمْ وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلَّا ٱلْحَقَّ ۚ إِنَّمَا ٱلْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُۥٓ أَلْقَىٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌۭ مِّنْهُ ۖ فَـَٔامِنُوا۟ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ ۖ وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ ثَلَـٰثَةٌ ۚ ٱنتَهُوا۟ خَيْرًۭا لَّكُمْ ۚ إِنَّمَا ٱللَّهُ إِلَـٰهٌۭ وَٰحِدٌۭ ۖ سُبْحَـٰنَهُۥٓ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُۥ وَلَدٌۭ ۘ لَّهُۥ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ ۗ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ وَكِيلًۭا ١٧١

Jesus is the Word (singular) from Allah and
Jesus is a Spirit from Allah

You said: Allah has no spirit.
In other words, we cant say : spirit of/from Allah

Arnet you contradicting the Quran?

AntiChristian:
How can a Book die?
The Qur’an is the word of Allah, may He be exalted, and is not created

What is meant by that is that Allah, may He be exalted, spoke the words of the Qur’an, which Jibreel (peace be upon him) heard from Him, and brought down to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and conveyed it to him.

All of the attributes of Allah, may He be exalted, are uncreated; they are eternal, with no beginning. The words of Allah are among these attributes, and that includes the Qur’an. Therefore the scholars said that the Qur’an is not created, because it is the words of Allah, and that is one of His attributes.

With regard to people’s actions, they are created. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“While Allah has created you and what you do [or make]” [as-Saaffaat 37:96]

I'm sure you know that I speak NOT about the Book in your Hands. I speak about the Speech of Allah in the Quran! Since I don't know your sect within the Sunni Muslims, can you kindly answer these two questions!

Are you saying that the Quran is NOT Eternal? (When was the Quran Created?)
And the Quran is not in the Book in Heaven? ( أمّ الکتاب )

Now that you know the difference between the Ruh and the Nafs, and you know the meaning of the Word as SPEECH of Allah, please answer these questions hoping that you also realize that NOT one SINGLE attribute of God can depreciate nor be extinguished,
The major Question I asked was (I've helped you to dilute the question a little)
If it is true that Jesus died,
1. Can the Word of/from Allah die?
2. Can the Spirit of/from Allah die?

The answer is simpler than you realize!
PEACE!

TenQ:
Of course the Creator of the Earth and everything within it OWNS the earth.
2Cor 4:4:
"In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them."


Why is EVIL prevalent in this world? Is it not because people follow the dictates of Satan their god?

Isaiah 45:7 says YHVH created good and evil! So that's the reason!

Paul was wrong to have used Elohim for satan!

AntiChristian:
Isaiah 45:7 says YHVH created good and evil! So that's the reason!

Paul was wrong to have used Elohim for satan!

Why!?:
Was satan not created by God?
God knew exactly what He was doing as NOTHING was an accident by Him!


Did Allah not deceive Shaitan to do evil?

TenQ:
Why!?:
Was satan not created by God?
God knew exactly what He was doing as NOTHING was an accident by Him!


Did Allah not deceive Shaitan to do evil?

Satan was created by Elohim and that doesn't make him Elohim!

I never said God doesn't know what he's doing!

I wasn't discussing about Allah and Satan but Elohim as Satan, human, Angel, god and God!

TenQ:
Thanks for your advice. I don't want you to have any excuse before "awon omo ile kewu" when the run coming to you for explanations to what TenQ said. It would be too convenient for you to say, "Don't mind him, he is using Shia sources!". I am okay to use your sahih hadiths and Tafsirs of Sunni Muslims.

None of my business! I will refute you as a Shia! You'll only corrupt your already corrupted brain!

And Qutham aka Mohammed lived for 40 years with nothing known about him!?
You want to tell us some history!?

So who married Khadijah? How is Arabia in existence now and still on Islam and Israel still remains a Jewish country where even Islam is popular than Christianity?

Did you say this


Your prefered rendering

The accurate rendering is that no one has entered Paradise that day when Jesus died!

Is this not the resurrection (Recombining of the soul and spirit of man with his physical body)?
Are you insinuating that at death (just as the JW), a person is in oblivion?

Na your Bible o! You Bible says Jesus will come and judge later. But you said he has already put someone in paradise already! The later is a lie!

Two verses Quran 21:91 and Quran 66:12 agree with each other and Quran 3:59 is a contradiction.
Is the command to "BE" the same as LIFTING UP Mary's garment and BLOWING into her Vagina ?

Allah says" Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is!" Qur'an 36:82
Such thing happens as Allah wants it to happen.

If it is NOT a contradiction please explain:
Did Allah first lift up Marys garment, then blowing into her Vagina the same as command "BE"!
OR
Which of the two sets of action happened first?

Please, deal with the OBVIOUS contradiction.

The contradiction existed due to your lack of comprehension and insight! And it can also be due to bigotry!

Allah was not present physically on Earth with Mary when it happened! But all things happen by His command!

God's Power
God's Word
God's Spirit
God's Knowledge
God's Life
God's Prescience
These are all attributes of God

Can ANY of the attributes of God CEASE to exist?[quote]Attribute of God according to the Bible not Qur'an! Allah never told you He has a Spirit! So we only qualify Him with what He mentioned! God's knowledge is infinite! It is not something that can be affected by death since it has no soul of itself!


[quote]Prove from the Quran that Allah is NOT a Spirit! QED
Otherwise, it is a conjecture
Quran 17:85
They ask you about "the spirit". Say: "The spirit descends by the command of my Lord, but you have been given only a little knowledge."

Let me help you out from the Quran

https://ask.ismailignosis.com/article/122-soul-nafs-and-spirit-ruh

You are to bring your prove that Allah says He's a spirit! No prove means Allah is not what you claim and you remain a liar! Allah called Himself Ar-Rahman. And many other names in the Qur'an and Sunnah!
Nowhere does it exists that Allah is a Spirit or has a Spirit like you claim of your God in the Bible!

Your evidence above: enough Quran to support. LOL!
Ruh means the Spirit
Nafs can mean either the SOUL or the union of the BODY and SOUL

After you show me that according to Islam the Ruh or the Nafs of a person is VISIBLE!

My final words on Rooh/Nafs!
1. The hadeeth of Abd-Allaah ibn Masood (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said: Whilst I was with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) on a farm, and he was resting on a palm branch stripped of its leaves, the Jews passed by, and some of them said to others, Ask him about the soul. Some of them said, What urges you to ask him about it? Others of them said, Dont ask him in case he says something you dislike. But they said, Ask him, so they asked him about the soul. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kept quiet and did not respond to them, and I knew that he was receiving Revelation, so I stayed where I was. When the Revelation of the aayah was complete, he said (interpretation of the meaning): And they ask you [O Muhammad] concerning the rooh [the spirit]. Say: The rooh: it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little. [al-Isra 17:85] (Reported by al-Bukhaari).

The rooh (soul or spirit) has been described by Allaah in His Book and by the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in his Sunnah, and various verbs and adjectives have been used in conjunction with the word rooh, such as seizing or grasping, taking (as in death), it may be fettered or shrouded, it comes and goes, it goes up and comes down, it may be pulled out like a hair being pulled out of dough It is obligatory (in Islam) to believe in these attributes which are narrated in the two Revelations (i.e., the Quraan and Sunnah), and also to realize that the soul is not like the body.

2. Allaah created Adam and breathed the soul into him, as is stated in the Quraan and in the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): When Allaah created Adam and breathed the soul into him, he sneezed and said Al-hamdu-Lillah (Praise be to Allaah). He praised Allaah by His permission. Then his Lord said to him, May Allaah have mercy on you, O Adam. Go to those angels, to a group of them who are sitting, and say, As-salaamu alaykum (peace be upon you). They said, Wa alayka al-salaam wa rahmat-Allaah (and upon you be peace and the Mercy of Allaah). Then he went back to his Lord, who said, This is your greeting and the greeting of your descendants amongst themselves.
(Reported and classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi. Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 3290)

3. Allaah sends the angel to breathe the soul into the foetus as was reported by Abd-Allaah ibn Masood, who said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who is the most truthful (of human beings) and his being truthful (is a fact) told us: The constituents of one of you is gathered in his mothers womb for forty days, then it becomes a clot of blood within another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh, and forty days later, Allaah sends His angel to it to breathe into it the soul. The angel comes with instructions concerning four things, so the angel writes down his livelihood, his death, his deeds and whether he will doomed or blessed.
(Reported by Muslim, 1528).

4. The soul of the deceased is taken from the ends of the toes towards the top of the body, and when it reaches the throat, the death rattle sounds in the throat of the person who is about to die, and his eyes glaze over and roll upwards. Um Salamah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) entered upon Abu Salamah (after he had died) and his eyes were open, so he closed them then said, When the soul is taken, the eyes follow it.
(Reported by Muslim, 1528).

Don't be a dummy!
You very well know that I refer not to BOOKS. Is your Allah's words bound only in books? Does Allah not SPEAK?
Is the Word of Allah not an Attribute of Allah?
The Word of Allah is the SPOKEN WORDS OF ALLAH!

So, can the Spoken Words of Allah EXTINGUISH/CEASE TO EXIST (DIE)?


وَكَلِمَتُهُۥٓ ==And his WORD
وَرُوحٌۭ مِّنْهُ ۖ == And a SPIRIT from him

The Qur’an is the word of Allah, may He be exalted, and is not created

What is meant by that is that Allah, may He be exalted, spoke the words of the Qur’an, which Jibreel (peace be upon him) heard from Him, and brought down to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and conveyed it to him.

All of the attributes of Allah, may He be exalted, are uncreated; they are eternal, with no beginning. The words of Allah are among these attributes, and that includes the Qur’an. Therefore the scholars said that the Qur’an is not created, because it is the words of Allah, and that is one of His attributes.

With regard to people’s actions, they are created. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“While Allah has created you and what you do [or make]” [as-Saaffaat 37:96].

There are two issues that we must distinguish between:
The first is the words of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, that He spoke initially, and Jibreel (peace be upon him) heard them from Him, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) conveyed them to us. This is an attribute of Allah that is not created in its letters and words; the same applies to His voice with which Allah spoke initially, and Jibreel (peace be upon him) heard it from Him.

All of this comes under the heading of the words of Allah, nothing of which is created, no matter how it is written, recited or heard.

The second is the actions of the person, who is the vessel which carries the words of Allah, so he writes them in a book, reads them and hears them. All that comes from a person and that he does is created.

So the hand of the person is created, the ink with which he writes is created, the paper on which he writes is created, the person’s tongue is created, his voice that belongs to him is created. All of these are vessels in which people carry the word of Allah and transmit it and convey it.

Quran 4:171
يَـٰٓأَهْلَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ لَا تَغْلُوا۟ فِى دِينِكُمْ وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلَّا ٱلْحَقَّ ۚ إِنَّمَا ٱلْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُۥٓ أَلْقَىٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌۭ مِّنْهُ ۖ فَـَٔامِنُوا۟ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ ۖ وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ ثَلَـٰثَةٌ ۚ ٱنتَهُوا۟ خَيْرًۭا لَّكُمْ ۚ إِنَّمَا ٱللَّهُ إِلَـٰهٌۭ وَٰحِدٌۭ ۖ سُبْحَـٰنَهُۥٓ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُۥ وَلَدٌۭ ۘ لَّهُۥ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ ۗ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ وَكِيلًۭا ١٧١

Jesus is the Word (singular) from Allah and
Jesus is a Spirit from Allah

You said: Allah has no spirit.
In other words, we cant say : spirit of/from Allah

Arnet you contradicting the Quran?

I have quoted many evidence above for you on Spirit=Soul! Qur'an is the word of Allah spoken by him. Jesus too is a word spoken by Him i.e. "Be"! And from Allah comes all our Soul aka Spirit!

I'm sure you know that I speak NOT about the Book in your Hands. I speak about the Speech of Allah in the Quran! Since I don't know your sect within the Sunni Muslims, can you kindly answer these two questions!

Are you saying that the Quran is NOT Eternal? (When was the Quran Created?)
And the Quran is not in the Book in Heaven? ( أمّ الکتاب )

This has been answered above!

Now that you know the difference between the Ruh and the Nafs, and you know the meaning of the Word as SPEECH of Allah, please answer these questions hoping that you also realize that NOT one SINGLE attribute of God can depreciate nor be extinguished,

Ignorance plus arrogance!

The major Question I asked was (I've helped you to dilute the question a little)
If it is true that Jesus died,
1. Can the Word of/from Allah die?
2. Can the Spirit of/from Allah die?

This has no basis anymore!

The answer is simpler than you realize!
PEACE!

Yeah! Peace!