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The Wonderful Truth of the Trinity

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

The above text is the clearest and most succinct statement of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible, but also probably the most controversial verse in the Bible. Many authorities believe it was not in John's original epistle, but was added by some ancient copyist. Consequently, although it is in the King James Bible, most modern English translations omit it. There are others (including this writer) who are convinced it was in the original and should be retained.

In any case, the truth of the Trinity is taught in many other passages of the New Testament and does not depend on this particular verse. It is undoubtedly the most distinctive doctrine of the Christian faith. Most religions are either pantheistic (e.g., Buddhism) or polytheistic (e.g., Hinduism). Two other religions are monotheistic (Judaism, Islam), but only Christianity recognizes the one real God (the Triune God—Father, Son, Holy Spirit)—one God in three Persons.

The sacred book of the Muslims—the Koran—regards Jesus as only a prophet, repeatedly denouncing as infidels all those who believe in the Trinity. The Jews often consider Jesus to have been a great teacher, but no more than that. To the Christian, however, the Lord Jesus Christ is a person yet God incarnate, God's only begotten Son—Creator, Saviour, King of kings and Lord of lords. Christians also believe that the Holy Spirit is not just a spiritual influence, but a real person, the third Person of the Godhead.

When an individual becomes a Christian, he acknowledges it by being baptized in the name [note, just a single name] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 28:19). He believes in one God—but not the unknowable, unapproachable "god" of Islam called "Allah."

Instead, he recognizes God as the infinite, invisible, omnipresent Father, but also as the Son, the visible, touchable, yet perfectly holy Word always revealing and manifesting the Father, and as the Holy Spirit, always present to guide, convict, and comfort. He is very real—eternal and invisible, omnipresent Father of all, yet visible and approachable through the Son and experienced and understood in the Holy Spirit.

Majestic mystery, but wonderful reality! Christians believe in the Trinity—one God, not three gods, but three divine Persons, each equally and totally God. We cannot really comprehend this with our minds, but we can believe it and rejoice with our hearts. It is somewhat analagous to the "space" of God's created universe. Space is comprised of three dimensions, each of which permeates all space. This structure is helpful to illustrate the nature of the tri-une God. That is, God is one God, not three gods. Yet He is revealed as three Persons, each of which is eternally and completely God.

This great truth appears again and again in the Bible—especially in the New Testament, of course. But one can also discern it here and there in the Old Testament.

For example, note Isaiah 48:16: Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God and His Spirit, hath sent me. Note here that the Son, the divine Word who is speaking, is being sent into the world by the Father and the Spirit.

But turning again to the New Testament, it is rather remarkable to note how all three Persons of the Godhead are significant in so many phases of the Christian life. First, as noted, the believer is baptized in the one Name but in every Person (Matthew 18:19) of the holy Trinity.

Then, as he begins his Christian life, all three are still actively involved. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:14).

The actual event of salvation requires a miraculous creation, with the believer undergoing regeneration, and thus being born again. This tremendous miracle is indeed accomplished only by the working of all three Persons of the Godhead. As Paul wrote, God sent forth His Son....To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father (Galatians 4:4-6).

The apostle Peter also noted the action of every Person of the divine Godhead in the great work of saving those who trust in Christ: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:2).

An extremely important part of the Christian life from its very beginning is that of prayer. That also is accomplished daily with each person of the Trinity participating. For through Him [that is, through Christ the Son] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father (Ephesians 2:18 ). When we pray, we normally pray to our heavenly Father (not to Jesus or the Holy Ghost). God, of course, can hear a sincere prayer, regardless of how addressed, but we should know that we are really coming through the Lord Jesus and in His good name by means of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Note Matthew 6:9 and John 14:13).

Once we have been born again by the regenerating miracle of the Holy Spirit, our bodies become His temple. But this also means that the tri-une God Himself is there through the Spirit. We can be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in [our] hearts by faith; . . . that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God (Ephesians 3:16-17,19).

This was also implied in Christ's original promise that He would send the Holy Spirit. I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth...for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you....At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you....If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him (John 14:16-18,20,23).

At that time, Christ also promised that the Holy Spirit would teach us, and that this also would involve Himself as well as the Father. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things (v.26). The pervasive content of His teaching would, of course, concern the Lord Jesus Himself, as directed by the Father, But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me (15:26).

Thus, in a wonderful sense, the tri-une Godhead—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—one and all live in each Christian believer, teaching, strengthening, convicting, comforting, and guiding him in answer to his prayers. This is the marvelous truth of the Trinity.

Keep in mind that there are three real Persons in the Godhead, not just three ways in which God reveals Himself. The Son prays to the Father, for example, and the Father sends the Holy Spirit when the Son returns to heaven.

Perhaps it is significant that the word Godhead appears just three times in the New Testament, each from a slightly different, though essentially synonymous Greek word. The first occurrence of Godhead is in Acts 17:29. ...we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. That is, no one can make a model of our three-in-one God—neither any kind of graven image nor some kind of philosophical construct.

But it seems that God Himself has made such a model. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead (Romans 1:20). This is the second mention of Godhead.

That is, the creation itself can be seen as a model of the three-in-one Godhead. This remarkable fact cannot be discussed in the limited space here, but will be elaborated in more detail in the Back to Genesis section of the December issue of Acts & Facts.

The physical universe is, in a very real sense, a trinity of trinities. Also, in a certain sense, human life is a trinity of body, soul, and spirit.

In fact, tri-unity in various ways is often seen in the creation (but note that a "trinity" is not an entity composed of three individual parts, like the sides of a triangle, but rather an entity of three parts, each of which is the whole).

Thus, although no man could ever model the Godhead, God has seemingly done this in His creation. But then the third mention of the Godhead is given in Colossians 2:9. For in [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Thus, the Lord Jesus can say to His disciples: ...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14:9), for He Himself is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15).

We can close with one more Biblical mention of the Trinity: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all (2 Corinthians 13:14).

For more . . . .

The Word GENNAO (beget, father, cause to exist) in NT Greek as the Great Key to Understanding Who Jesus Is

We begin with a formal, universally understood definition of an easy word in Greek. The word is gennao (in modern Greek pronounced “yenao”).

Here is the simple definition provided by the Theological Dictionary of the NT, Vol. 1, p. 665: “Gennao is used of the ‘begetting’ of the father and the ‘bearing’ of the mother, not only in Greek generally but also in the LXX [the Greek version of the OT] and in the New Testament.”

Why is this word so critically important for our understanding of who Jesus, the Son of God is? Simply because gennao is used to describe the coming into existence of the Son of God. Now if you belong to an “orthodox” church, you are committed to believing that the Son of God never came into existence in time. He has always existed. He, the Son, had no beginning. He was “eternally begotten” by the Father.This concept is deeply rooted in the official understanding of the Son of God and this has been so for the past 1700 years! “Eternal generation” will not stand up under a thoughtful investigation.

That is to say, the word gennao in the Greek language, to beget, to father, to sire, to cause to come into existence, to give being to, cannot possibly mean an “eternal begetting.” Some contemporary preachers are beginning to awake to the awful possibility that the Church in its hallowed creeds has been mistaken at a very fundamental level — that of defining Jesus Christ, Son of God, properly and honestly. Here are the facts. Mark Driscoll writes, candidly and correctly:

“The word ‘begotten’ unavoidably implies a beginning of the one begotten.” This is a staggeringly interesting admission. Yes, once we read that the Son of God, Jesus, was “begotten” we can automatically and safely — driven by the absolute facts of the language, Greek and English — conclude that the Son of God had a beginning in time, that he was “given being,” “caused to come into existence.”

These ordinary language facts drive the honest seeker for truth to the conclusion that there is no such biblical character as an “eternally begotten” Son. Eternity lies beyond time and “begetting” is our most important “timebound” word. All human beings are begotten, generated, generation following generation.

You can read a simple compelling list of the famous human beings begotten and born at the opening of Matthew’s Gospel. “Abraham begat Isaac” and so on for 40 generations. Similar family trees are recorded in the OT and the same easy word gennao is used to describe the beginning of a human person, the son of his father. In no case does “beget,” “father” cancel out its own meaning, stand itself on its head and mean that someone did NOT have a beginning in time!

The “theological” (the term is rather too flattering! concept of “eternal begetting” is really a nonsense expression — not much better than hot ice cubes, married bachelors, or square circles. Someone recently observed that “machelors” and “squircles” are fictitious, if humorous, ideas. “What then would be a hot ice cube?” I asked a brilliant young student I was privileged to teach NT Greek to. Her answer was spontaneous: “a puddle!”

I want you to see that a number of honest Bible experts of top rank admit exactly what we are saying here. The idea of an “eternally begotten Son of God” is an invalid, impermissible one, and needs to be struck from the church records. Especially because we are all going to be judged by the words of Jesus, he said repeatedly and in the climactic summary in John 12:

Jesus said in a loud voice, “Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in Him who sent me. Whoever sees me sees also Him who sent me. I have come into the world as light so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in the Darkness. If anyone hears my Gospel message and does not obey it, I will not judge him. I came not to judge the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my Gospel message has one who will judge him. The words I have spoken will be his judge on the last day!This is true because I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has commanded me what I must say and speak. And I know that His command brings the Life of the Age to Come, immortality. What I say then is what the Father has told me to say” (John 12:44-50).

Are you ready for a challenge? The creeds of the Church are violently at odds with the Bible which we claim as our authority — on this very fundamental question of who is Jesus, Son of God. Again, Mark Driscoll: “Begotten unavoidably implies a beginning of the one begotten.” He means of course a beginning in time. The Son of God in Scripture is expressly and patently said to have a beginning in time. Read it first in Matthew 1. After a list of 40 samples of “generations,” “begettings” “coming into existence,” “receiving being from a father,” we come to the breathtakingly fascinating account of how Jesus, the Son of God began to exist.

The event is certainly not beyond the limits of time in eternity past!

Matthew wrote: “Now the origin of Jesus Christ happened like this: His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit…While [Joseph] pondered on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take Mary, your wife, for that which is begotten in her is from Holy Spirit” (Matt. 1:18-20).

The question to be faced head on is this: When and where did the begetting (gennao) take place? Obviously, in the womb of Mary, and as a creative, biological miracle produced by the creative spirit of God the Father. These are unarguable facts and we do well to accept them, for fear of judgment, as in the case of Zacharias, who failed to believe what the angel said. Angels, as direct of emissaries of God, expect to be believed, and God, as Creator (in this case of His unique Son Jesus)demands our comprehending attention.

Here it is again: Thayer’s lexicon, referring to the beginning of the existence of the Son: “to be begotten: to , evn au vth/| gennhqe,n: that which is begotten in her womb, Matt. 1:20.”To be begotten is to be procreated, and the word create conveys the brilliantly illuminating truth that the Son is not an uncreated Person! He is brought into being and given existence as Son in Mary, by miracle. He is begotten, fathered and procreated by this most amazing historical event, so matchlessly and simply described by the narrative of Matthew 1:20 and repeated by 1 John 5:18, where exactly the same word, in the same passive form and tense, tells of the begetting, the beginning of existence of the Son of God, as an event of past history.

He is truly the second Adam, the beginning of a brand new creation. He is the head of the new race of humans destined for immortality. Jesus has pioneered that amazing destiny and has arrived at immortality. He beckons those who believe his amazing status, forward to the same indestructible life. Now look at Acts 13:33 and Psalm 2:7. Treffry, Eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, on Psalm 2:7: “Today I have become your Father”:

“This passage occurs 4 times in the scriptures, three times cited in the NT (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5 and 5:5). Hence we are assured of its importance and significance and equally of its impressiveness, which last of course must depend on the clearness with which it enunciates the truth and the consequent facility with which its meaning would be apprehended. It cannot therefore be obscure or enigmatic, nor can its sense be remote or recondite [so Ps. 110:1], uncertain or ambiguous. A text possessing these characteristics would not be quoted so often, especially as is the fact, without an accompanying explanation.

Read the rest here HERE

OLAADEGBU: @frosbel, the author of your heretical beliefs, Anthony Buzzard, is an unitarian Christian, and unitarians believe that Jesus Christ is just a prophet and not God. If this is what you now believe then 'am afraid that you're on your own. Read more about the unitarians in the suggested link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

frosbel: I

I am sorry but I agree with him 100%.

You are in the majority with the false catholic apostate church who hold unto the pagan doctrine of the trinity.

I am in the minority with the 'heretics' and thank God for that.

I will later on in the day , provide you with evidence on how your catholic , Anglican and Calvin churches, hunted down, tortured and killed Unitarians with the most gruesome methods known to man.

Your mother church is the catholic Church , deeper life is just one of her numerous daughters repeating her warped understanding of the one and true GOD.

frosbel: I

I am sorry but I agree with him 100%.

You are in the majority with the false catholic apostate church who hold unto the pagan doctrine of the trinity.

I am in the minority with the 'heretics' and thank God for that.

I will later on in the day , provide you with evidence on how your catholic , Anglican and Calvin churches, hunted down, tortured and killed Unitarians with the most gruesome methods known to man.

Your mother church is the catholic Church , deeper life is just one of her numerous daughters repeating her warped understanding of the one and true GOD.

frosbel: I

I am sorry but I agree with him 100%.

You are in the majority with the false catholic apostate church who hold unto the pagan doctrine of the trinity.

I am in the minority with the 'heretics' and thank God for that.

I will later on in the day , provide you with evidence on how your catholic , Anglican and Calvin churches, hunted down, tortured and killed Unitarians with the most gruesome methods known to man.

Your mother church is the catholic Church , deeper life is just one of her numerous daughters repeating her warped understanding of the one and true GOD.

frosbel: Scripture.

OLAADEGBU: Your role model has been found out. He is a false prophet. Some dust has been dug up about him.

http://www.endtime-prophets.com/buzzard.html

frosbel: So when you cannot argue the points case by case , you rush off to a site or any site for that matter to look for an article that will label him as a false prophet

Why do you find it so hard to argue your case point by point backed up by scripture, why must you always reply on others through cartoons, pictures and articles to do your thinking for you ?

Let me help you a little bit.

Remember God was in Christ reconciling the world back to himself.

"that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." - 2 Corinthians 5:19

Jesus Christ was 100% full man and not GOD.

Yahweh cannot be tempted, Yahweh cannot die, Yahweh does not say that the father is greater than he, Yahweh does not eat, drink or sleep.

Mate you are jealously holding unto false doctrine.

One thing I do and which God has blessed me with is to examine all church doctrine in the light of scripture.

During this process I have found out that what the majority of apostate christianity believe in largley unscriptural , such as :

1. Immortal Soul
2. Eternal Hell
3. souls in heaven or hell at death
4. Trinity
5. Tithing
6. rapture

etc etc

Read your bible and humbly ask God for wisdom, that is what I do almost everyday and the traditions of men have been totally destroyed from before my very eyes, praise be to Yahweh our eternal father, saviour and redeemer.

frosbel: So when you cannot argue the points case by case , you rush off to a site or any site for that matter to look for an article that will label him as a false prophet

Why do you find it so hard to argue your case point by point backed up by scripture, why must you always reply on others through cartoons, pictures and articles to do your thinking for you ?

Let me help you a little bit.

Remember God was in Christ reconciling the world back to himself.

"that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." - 2 Corinthians 5:19

Jesus Christ was 100% full man and not GOD.

Yahweh cannot be tempted, Yahweh cannot die, Yahweh does not say that the father is greater than he, Yahweh does not eat, drink or sleep.

Mate you are jealously holding unto false doctrine.

One thing I do and which God has blessed me with is to examine all church doctrine in the light of scripture.

During this process I have found out that what the majority of apostate christianity believe in largley unscriptural , such as :

1. Immortal Soul
2. Eternal Hell
3. souls in heaven or hell at death
4. Trinity
5. Tithing
6. rapture

etc etc

Read your bible and humbly ask God for wisdom, that is what I do almost everyday and the traditions of men have been totally destroyed from before my very eyes, praise be to Yahweh our eternal father, saviour and redeemer.

frosbel:

The Word GENNAO (beget, father, cause to exist) in NT Greek as the Great Key to Understanding Who Jesus Is

We begin with a formal, universally understood definition of an easy word in Greek. The word is gennao (in modern Greek pronounced “yenao”).

Here is the simple definition provided by the Theological Dictionary of the NT, Vol. 1, p. 665: “Gennao is used of the ‘begetting’ of the father and the ‘bearing’ of the mother, not only in Greek generally but also in the LXX [the Greek version of the OT] and in the New Testament.”

Why is this word so critically important for our understanding of who Jesus, the Son of God is? Simply because gennao is used to describe the coming into existence of the Son of God. Now if you belong to an “orthodox” church, you are committed to believing that the Son of God never came into existence in time. He has always existed. He, the Son, had no beginning. He was “eternally begotten” by the Father.This concept is deeply rooted in the official understanding of the Son of God and this has been so for the past 1700 years! “Eternal generation” will not stand up under a thoughtful investigation.

That is to say, the word gennao in the Greek language, to beget, to father, to sire, to cause to come into existence, to give being to, cannot possibly mean an “eternal begetting.” Some contemporary preachers are beginning to awake to the awful possibility that the Church in its hallowed creeds has been mistaken at a very fundamental level — that of defining Jesus Christ, Son of God, properly and honestly. Here are the facts. Mark Driscoll writes, candidly and correctly:

“The word ‘begotten’ unavoidably implies a beginning of the one begotten.” This is a staggeringly interesting admission. Yes, once we read that the Son of God, Jesus, was “begotten” we can automatically and safely — driven by the absolute facts of the language, Greek and English — conclude that the Son of God had a beginning in time, that he was “given being,” “caused to come into existence.”

These ordinary language facts drive the honest seeker for truth to the conclusion that there is no such biblical character as an “eternally begotten” Son. Eternity lies beyond time and “begetting” is our most important “timebound” word. All human beings are begotten, generated, generation following generation.

You can read a simple compelling list of the famous human beings begotten and born at the opening of Matthew’s Gospel. “Abraham begat Isaac” and so on for 40 generations. Similar family trees are recorded in the OT and the same easy word gennao is used to describe the beginning of a human person, the son of his father. In no case does “beget,” “father” cancel out its own meaning, stand itself on its head and mean that someone did NOT have a beginning in time!

The “theological” (the term is rather too flattering! concept of “eternal begetting” is really a nonsense expression — not much better than hot ice cubes, married bachelors, or square circles. Someone recently observed that “machelors” and “squircles” are fictitious, if humorous, ideas. “What then would be a hot ice cube?” I asked a brilliant young student I was privileged to teach NT Greek to. Her answer was spontaneous: “a puddle!”

I want you to see that a number of honest Bible experts of top rank admit exactly what we are saying here. The idea of an “eternally begotten Son of God” is an invalid, impermissible one, and needs to be struck from the church records. Especially because we are all going to be judged by the words of Jesus, he said repeatedly and in the climactic summary in John 12:

Jesus said in a loud voice, “Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in Him who sent me. Whoever sees me sees also Him who sent me. I have come into the world as light so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in the Darkness. If anyone hears my Gospel message and does not obey it, I will not judge him. I came not to judge the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my Gospel message has one who will judge him. The words I have spoken will be his judge on the last day!This is true because I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has commanded me what I must say and speak. And I know that His command brings the Life of the Age to Come, immortality. What I say then is what the Father has told me to say” (John 12:44-50).

Are you ready for a challenge? The creeds of the Church are violently at odds with the Bible which we claim as our authority — on this very fundamental question of who is Jesus, Son of God. Again, Mark Driscoll: “Begotten unavoidably implies a beginning of the one begotten.” He means of course a beginning in time. The Son of God in Scripture is expressly and patently said to have a beginning in time. Read it first in Matthew 1. After a list of 40 samples of “generations,” “begettings” “coming into existence,” “receiving being from a father,” we come to the breathtakingly fascinating account of how Jesus, the Son of God began to exist.

The event is certainly not beyond the limits of time in eternity past!

Matthew wrote: “Now the origin of Jesus Christ happened like this: His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit…While [Joseph] pondered on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take Mary, your wife, for that which is begotten in her is from Holy Spirit” (Matt. 1:18-20).

The question to be faced head on is this: When and where did the begetting (gennao) take place? Obviously, in the womb of Mary, and as a creative, biological miracle produced by the creative spirit of God the Father. These are unarguable facts and we do well to accept them, for fear of judgment, as in the case of Zacharias, who failed to believe what the angel said. Angels, as direct of emissaries of God, expect to be believed, and God, as Creator (in this case of His unique Son Jesus)demands our comprehending attention.

Here it is again: Thayer’s lexicon, referring to the beginning of the existence of the Son: “to be begotten: to , evn au vth/| gennhqe,n: that which is begotten in her womb, Matt. 1:20.”To be begotten is to be procreated, and the word create conveys the brilliantly illuminating truth that the Son is not an uncreated Person! He is brought into being and given existence as Son in Mary, by miracle. He is begotten, fathered and procreated by this most amazing historical event, so matchlessly and simply described by the narrative of Matthew 1:20 and repeated by 1 John 5:18, where exactly the same word, in the same passive form and tense, tells of the begetting, the beginning of existence of the Son of God, as an event of past history.

He is truly the second Adam, the beginning of a brand new creation. He is the head of the new race of humans destined for immortality. Jesus has pioneered that amazing destiny and has arrived at immortality. He beckons those who believe his amazing status, forward to the same indestructible life. Now look at Acts 13:33 and Psalm 2:7. Treffry, Eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, on Psalm 2:7: “Today I have become your Father”:

“This passage occurs 4 times in the scriptures, three times cited in the NT (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5 and 5:5). Hence we are assured of its importance and significance and equally of its impressiveness, which last of course must depend on the clearness with which it enunciates the truth and the consequent facility with which its meaning would be apprehended. It cannot therefore be obscure or enigmatic, nor can its sense be remote or recondite [so Ps. 110:1], uncertain or ambiguous. A text possessing these characteristics would not be quoted so often, especially as is the fact, without an accompanying explanation.

Read the rest here HERE

ifeness: It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.



The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).



This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself.

OLAADEGBU: Starting with the pdf that anthony buzzard wrote, this is what C.S. Lewis, who was equally british and a former atheist wrote about Jesus being the only begotten Son of God:

"To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers, But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam . . . Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind."

So you can see that if a person loves to do the will of God he will understand the doctrines of the Bible and know what comes from God and not begin to use his carnal understanding to interprete the Scriptures to their own destruction.

OLAADEGBU: Starting with the pdf that anthony buzzard wrote, this is what C.S. Lewis, who was equally british and a former atheist wrote about Jesus being the only begotten Son of God:

"To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers, But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam . . . Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind."

So you can see that if a person loves to do the will of God he will understand the doctrines of the Bible and know what comes from God and not begin to use his carnal understanding to interprete the Scriptures to their own destruction.

OLAADEGBU: Starting with the pdf that anthony buzzard wrote, this is what C.S. Lewis, who was equally british and a former atheist wrote about Jesus being the only begotten Son of God:

"To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers, But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam . . . Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind."

So you can see that if a person loves to do the will of God he will understand the doctrines of the Bible and know what comes from God and not begin to use his carnal understanding to interprete the Scriptures to their own destruction.

frosbel: And who should I take more seriously , scripture or CS Lewis who by the way was also the author of many mythical stories such as Narnia and the likes.

OLAADEGBU , present your case on a POINT by POINT basis with scripture and let us discuss amicably.

frosbel: Your refusal to research into God through a humble and honest read of scripture has to be the greatest undoing of your soul.

Randomly 'flirting' with a few out of context verses in the bible is the trait of a lazy student.

Additionally , God does not reveal his scripture to the arrogant and already made up wilful minds.

You need to take a deep breath , calm down and humbly search the scriptures for in them you will come to understand the one true God , his original purpose for man, man's failure and God's plan for his redemption.

Most of all , you will find his love, the true love of a father over a very rebellious creation , ungrateful , rude and unruly children who bite the fingers that feed them.

If God were to take away your breath today you will be a lifeless mass of dust , it is only in his mercy that despite your stubbornness he providently sustains you.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I like people to do their research properly and not rely on a variety of diverse nonsense called an ' understanding of GOD'.

Read the context, again the context , understand the intents and purposes of God, see sin for what it is , a terrible and wicked blight on a beautiful creation which has introduced all the vices we see, hear and know about today.

Again I speak not in harshness but in LOVE, the times are urgent and your soul is at stake.

Peace !

OLAADEGBU: It is you that has the problem of moving the stones that the fathers have laid, as for me I have no case to prove. If the Word of God says it, I believe it and that should settle it for me. I only climb on the shoulders of giants so as to see farther.

ifeness: You never cease to amaze me with the fact that you think you know the bible more than anyone else.I was born into a so called born again family,i have been there and done all that. As a kid in the deepelife bible children church at the age of 8 i asked a lot of questions which were mostly unanswered by the dump pastors we had. I even pooped a question at KUMUYI at a 1995 youth programmed. I asked him why God hated Esau in the bible and why jacob the corn artist had to take his blessings? He told me God is God and we should not question him. That did not go down well with me. I then realized that christians worship this so called God out of fear. I dont fear anyone but respect. It is clear you are scared and you know what? "A coward and fearful person dies several times before their death"

I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.

Your bible God cannot take my breath away because he doesn't exist. In fact,he should kill me now if he really exists!!!

frosbel: First of all , the word of God does not say it.

Secondly there is no Giant greater than God, as Ifeness rightly observed , I think you rely too much on the interpretations of so called great men of God, a sure recipe for disaster,

frosbel: I will respond to your comment comprehensively after my work for today .

I once thought like you and had to leave the catholic church and deeper life church to find the real truth for myself. All the doctrines did not add up , I had to do a comprehensive study for myself with the different versions of the bible, lexicons, dictionaries , historical truths , history and articles written by a marginalised set of Christians who were branded heretics by the majority and apostate church.

Peace.

frosbel: First of all , the word of God does not say it.

Secondly there is no Giant greater than God, as Ifeness rightly observed , I think you rely too much on the interpretations of so called great men of God, a sure recipe for disaster,

frosbel:

He is truly the second Adam, the beginning of a brand new creation. He is the head of the new race of humans destined for immortality. Jesus has pioneered that amazing destiny and has arrived at immortality. He beckons those who believe his amazing status, forward to the same indestructible life. Now look at Acts 13:33 and Psalm 2:7. Treffry, Eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, on Psalm 2:7: “Today I have become your Father”:

“This passage occurs 4 times in the scriptures, three times cited in the NT (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5 and 5:5). Hence we are assured of its importance and significance and equally of its impressiveness, which last of course must depend on the clearness with which it enunciates the truth and the consequent facility with which its meaning would be apprehended. It cannot therefore be obscure or enigmatic, nor can its sense be remote or recondite [so Ps. 110:1], uncertain or ambiguous. A text possessing these characteristics would not be quoted so often, especially as is the fact, without an accompanying explanation.

Read the rest here HERE

OLAADEGBU: I guess you, Ifeness and the likes are surely independent thinkers that don't rely on other influences.

ifeness: I think for my self and create my own reality. My world is different from yours. Jesus dies for you and if you don't accept him,you go to hell.But in my world and reality,he doesn't exist....instead,it's UNLIMITED UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and no judgement. I make mistakes to learn from them and it is the same for my wife and kids.

I think the above comic is actually for you

OLAADEGBU: Yeah right, your professor told you to think this way, no?

ifeness: yes C.S Lewis did

OLAADEGBU: Since you don't believe that Jesus Christ is God this Bible verse should have settled the issue of His deity for you but unfortunately we have to go to the extent of seeing it through mathematical eyes to arrive at the obvious conclusion.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

The simple logic of this verse can be summed up as thus:

THE WORD = GOD

In John 1:14 it states:

"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us."

From these verses we can deduce the following:

JESUS = THE WORD

Simple logic declares that

if A = B and

B = C then

A = C.

Therefore, since

JESUS = THE WORD and

THE WORD = GOD, then

JESUS = GOD

QED.