₦airaland Forum

Thebadpolitican:
Ogie means Duke, present day governor

Apart from benin city other part of benin do not use the title oba, the names who has oba attached to it in benin

Like the popular senator obaragbon
Names that has oba attached to it was named by the Oba himself in the palace to honor a person to see how sacred the name was


Bro there is no contention here

The urohobs have parables that used the word oba to describe the Oba of benin

The ondo has a parable that use the word oba to describe the Oba

There is so many parable that describe and adore the Oba of benin in various edoid tribe and use the word oba to describe him too

Ogie is not Duke bro. Ogie is king. There's no way you want to twist this hard fact. Quote me anywhere. Ogie means KING.

All name that has Oba attached to it are traced to Bini. No other Edoid group bears any Oba title. They all make use of Ogie. So why should we believe that Oba is the rightful word for King instead of the well accepted Ogie?

Oba of Uvwie 😂

Efewestern:
Usen and Iwere may have mixed so well with their Edoid neighbors, but the core-fabric of these groups is Yoruboid. Bro, Oba is very pronounced the Iwere language. They use it in titles, proverbs and praise singing. You can't say it is a recent adaptation when the word has strong root in the language itself compared to Edo whose link we could barely establish.

Again, the Oba of Bini's supremacy doesn't validate the claims that Oba is an Edoid word. You keep stressing on the Oba's strength and influences. That's not what is on the table here. If smaller Bini-influenced groups like Iwere and Usen could interchangeably used the Oba title, then this invalidates your initial assertion that Oba was reserved only for the Bini emperor.

I may not be a linguistics, but I know it is hard for a word to just vanish from a mother language without any trace. Even lost Edo words like Okoro is still traceable within the Urhobo and Isoko dialects. If Oba was used pre-migration, then some few Edoid groups would have kept a trace of it. But surprisingly, only Yoruboid groups kept strings of the word. What does that tell you ?

You are very correct in some of your assertions. The Bini influences over related groups was very strong. You can't do anything pertaining royalty without informing the Oba. Even several external communities was under the direct rulership of the Oba. For example, the Oba was the one in charge of what is today known as Oghara. Urhobo grew in population and strength and some influences could no longer hold.

Okoro is a breathing and living name in Benin o. Not lost. It even means "prince" as in Oba's son. I explained it in a reply to your post, I believe like 2 years ago. I even cited Oba Erediauwa as a student at Government College Ibadan when his British teacher asked him to have his letters addressed to him as Okoro Solomon Akenzua instead of Prince Solomon Akenzua. The Oyinbo was ignored of course. I know minimum 12 families in Benin called Okoro as surname. Okoro originally meant boy.

Ok, regarding age, before 1480 when Oba Olua sent his son to become Ogiame, there was no high-ranking ruler in Iwerre. How can Oba use in Iwerre become more rooted than in Benin?

What was the rank or title of Awujale of Ijebu and Olowo of Owo, the major places in Yorubaland people migrated from to Iwerre? The problem remains that people sill think that only a large tribe can give culture to a smaller tribe as they are seen today. Yorubas were not one until just 200 years ago. Owo man could not communicate with Oyo man. So they had different names for kings. Only standardised Oyo Yoruba that most now speak brought "unity" of tongue. I have a dialect that is around 90% similar to Iwerre one. Even closer to Usen. So I am not one to be told about it.

The reason Benin influence in Eastern Yorubaland was so big is that Eastern Yorubas saw other Yorubas as totally different. So they readily accepted influential Benin by and large, of course waxing and wanning.

These things are not just "mere common sense" stuff but of scholarship.

Efe, I will not re-explain Oba meaning in Benin. I did many times before. Read through old posts if you want to know. To claim deeper root of Oba in Benin means you do not know Benin in any depth.

I can tell you of at least 20 places that didn't use Oba title 110 to 50 years ago but now use Oba praise

Benin language I heard growing up is different from now. Never mind how people who left Benin 600 to 700 years ago would have dropped some words and retained others. Some words in my dialect in Edo sound archaic or even unknown in Eastern Yorubaland today. Those in their 80s and 90s over there understand virtually every word. Meaning those words may still have been used when they were growing up but obsolete now. It doesn't mean they didn't exist centuries ago there. Difference is while theirs was influenced a lot by Oyo dialect over last 150 years, ours was not.

I write all these epistles because of silent people reading them and for posterity.

UGBE634:
I said it, you write like someone that is weak and lack substance, I said it even Ekpoma is a weak school. The first symptoms of Education is comprehension, if you fail at that, you will fail at anything. If there is anywhere I pride myself in the languages I understand is comprehension, infact it is 💯

Yoruba man, you can cry me a river

It is funny that for someone that claims to have all the comprehension in the world but yet find himself in a confused state, can't even decipher written statements or oral texts shows how much of comprehension skills you have..

What I learned from Ekpoma far outweighs everything you have learned from wherever you went to school..

davidnazee:
Yoruba man, you can cry me a river

It is funny that for someone that claims to have all the comprehension in the world but yet find himself in a confused state, can't even decipher written statements or oral texts shows how much of comprehension skills you have..

What I learned from Ekpoma far outweighs everything you have learned from wherever you went to school..

Tu khian wabua Oriovbe

I say it again, you are not worthy to untie my sandals. If you fail at comprehension which seem to be the foundation of Education, you shouldn't be talking to me we are not mate

The first symptoms of Education is comprehension, if you fail at that, you will fail at anything. If there is anywhere I pride myself in the languages I understand is comprehension, infact it is 💯

AreaFada2:
Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.

Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba.

Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin.

But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.

Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre?

I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.

Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, Olubadan, Oluwo, Olu, etc are not the yoruboid word for king, they are title of each sovereign rulers. I can't give a breakdown of these titles but I'm very sure they mean different thing.

The closest the Yorubas have to Oba is "Baale," which by the way is a low ranking title for a tiny community heads.

It is an established fact that Ogie is an Edoid word for King. Regardless of what some are trying to spin, Ogie means king and not Duke. Now, in Yoruboid, aside Oba, there is no other Yoruba word for King. Olu isn't king. Olu means Lord. Ooni , Alaffin are titles. Baale isn't also close. This leaves us with only OBA, unless you want to convince me that Yoruboid had no word for king.

Also, it makes no sense for Edoid to call King Ogie and Oba. Either one is foreign or the other just mean a different thing entirely.

Now, let's look at History.

When the Bini prince arrived Itsekiri, he met riverine Yoruba dwellers and united them. After the kingdom was established, several Bini aristocratic titles were adopted including Ogie, Ologbosere and Iyasere.

Some Yoruba titles like Olu, Oloye and Olareaja were retained. Being an amalgamation of two culture, Itsekiri retained the Ogie title, the Olu title and the Oba title. Whilst Olu of Itsekiri was more pronounced, their kings were also called Ogie and Oba (See the Itsekiri Anthem).

The children of a king are called Oton-Olu while the heir to the throne is called Oma-Oba. Now, the question is, why is Oba found in Itsekiri and not in Ika? Isoko? Urhobo? Weren't these group also influenced by Bini? Why is it that only groups that share affinity with Yoruba have it in their lexicon?

UGBE634:
Tu khian wabua Oriovbe

I say it again, you are not worthy to untie my sandals. If you fail at comprehension which seem to be the foundation of Education, you shouldn't be talking to me we are not mate

The first symptoms of Education is comprehension, if you fail at that, you will fail at anything. If there is anywhere I pride myself in the languages I understand is comprehension, infact it is 💯

The bolded above is not proper bini language. A truly educated Bini man will know how to properly spell/write that sentence. Once again you have proven yourself to be fake.

Can you tie your own sandals? That should be your first question to yourself. A man that doesn't understand his own roots is a lost man even to himself.

davidnazee:
The bolded above is not proper bini language. A truly educated Bini man will know how to properly spell/write that sentence. Once again you have proven yourself to be fake.

Can you tie your own sandals? That should be your first question to yourself. A man that doesn't understand his own roots is a lost man even to himself.

I cant write Bini properly, there is no where I have said I can write it properly. There is nothing like proven to be fake, there is nothing to gain from the identity my brother. Where I would hold sway is speaking and comprehension when Bini is spoken to me

UGBE634:
I cant write Bini properly, there is no where I have said I can write it properly. There is nothing like proven to be fake, there is nothing to gain from the identity my brother

Your problem is that you don't come with facts or sources to buttress or prove a point but instead you are filled with questions, confusion and lack of understanding. And when one try to answer your questions, give you reasonable food for thought you become rebellious.
It seems you cannot comprehend the Oba stool being local to Benin but at same time you actually cannot find a true connection with Ife.
It's same way the Yorubas cannot comprehend how Benin Kingdom conquered and rule them for over 700years.

davidnazee:
Your problem is that you don't come with facts or sources to buttress or prove a point but instead you are filled with questions, confusion and lack of understanding. And when one try to answer your questions, give you reasonable food for thought you become rebellious.
It seems you cannot comprehend the Oba stool being local to Benin but at same time you actually cannot find a true connection with Ife.
It's same way the Yorubas cannot comprehend how Benin Kingdom conquered and rule them for over 700years.

That Bini conquered some part of Yorubaland is not in doubt. I am not really fixated on Ife you can see, but I just believe that at least the Oba has something to do with yoruba moreso the title "Oba"

That any true Bini man would argue the Origin of the word Oba is Even shocking to me

AreaFada2:
What was the rank or title of Awujale of Ijebu and Olowo of Owo, the major places in Yorubaland people migrated from to Iwerre? [b]The problem remains that people sill think only a large tribe can give culture to a smaller tribe as they are seen today. [/b]Yorubas were not one until just 200 years ago. Owo man could not communicate with Oyo man. So they had different names for kings. Only standardised Oyo Yoruba that most now speak brought "unity" of tongue. I have a dialect that is around 90% similar to Iwerre one. So I am not one to be told about it. Even closer to Usen.

The reason Benin influence in Eastern Yorubaland was so big is that Eastern Yorubas saw other Yorubas as totally different. So they readily accepted influential Benin by and large, of course waxing and wanning.

These things are not just "mere common sense" stuff but of scholarship.

Efe, I will not re-explain Oba meaning in Benin. I did many times before. Read through old posts if you want to know. To claim deeper root of Oba in Benin means you do not know Benin in any depth.

I can tell you of at least 20 places that didn't use Oba title 110 to 50 years ago but now use Oba praise

Benin language I heard growing up is different from now. Never mind how people who left Benin 600 to 700 years ago would have dropped some words and retained others. Some words in my dialect in Edo sound archaic or even unknown in Eastern Yorubaland today. Those in their 80s and 90s over there understand virtually every world. Meaning those words may still been used when they were growing up but obsolete now. It doesn't mean they didn't exist centuries ago there. Difference is while theirs was affected a lot by Oyo dialect over last 150 years, ours was not.

I wite all these epistles because of silent people reading them and for posterity.

Bro, I'm not one that think only a large tribe can influence smaller tribes.

Efewestern:
I may be wrong but the name Eze-Igbe is purely edoid. It has no single root in Igbo. EzeIgbe means Sacrificial Dance.

This was my post some months ago when someone was trying to Igbonize Ezeigbe. Several times I've defended our Edoid roots.

Aside Oba, I still believe there are titles that have creeped into the Urhobo language that deep down I know it has no firm root in Edoid. I've always questioned the root of Olorogun.

With my little knowledge in the Urhobo language, I can piece together some Edo words. As much we are far apart, we share similar terminologies. So most times I base my judgement on that.

No vex say I they shook mouth for this Bini/Ife tussle 😂😂

davidnazee:
The bolded above is not proper bini language. A truly educated Bini man will know how to properly spell/write that sentence. Once again you have proven yourself to be fake.

Can you tie your own sandals? That should be your first question to yourself. A man that doesn't understand his own roots is a lost man even to himself.

Nor be mouth you nor reach

Efewestern:
Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, Olubadan, Oluwo, Olu, etc are not the yoruboid word for king, they are title of each sovereign rulers. I can't give a breakdown of these titles but I'm very sure they mean different thing.

The closest the Yorubas have to Oba is "Baale," which by the way is a low ranking title for a tiny community heads.

It is an established fact that Ogie is an Edoid word for King. Regardless of what some are trying to spin, Ogie means king and not Duke. Now, in Yoruboid, aside Oba, there is no other Yoruba word for King. Olu isn't king. Olu means Lord. Ooni , Alaffin are titles. Baale isn't also close. This leaves us with only OBA, unless you want to convince me that Yoruboid had no word for king.

Also, it makes no sense for Edoid to call King Ogie and Oba. Either one is foreign or the other just mean a different thing entirely.

Now, let's look at History.

When the Bini prince arrived Itsekiri, he met riverine Yoruba dwellers and united them. After the kingdom was established, several Bini aristocratic titles were adopted including Ogie, Ologbosere and Iyasere.

Some Yoruba titles like Olu, Oloye and Olareaja were retained. Being an amalgamation of two culture, Itsekiri retained the Ogie title, the Olu title and the Oba title. Whilst Olu of Itsekiri was more pronounced, their kings were also called Ogie and Oba (See the Itsekiri Anthem).

The children of a king are called Oton-Olu while the heir to the throne is called Oma-Oba. Now, the question is, why is Oba found in Itsekiri and not in Ika? Isoko? Urhobo? Weren't these group also influenced by Bini? Why is it that only groups that share affinity with Yoruba have it in their lexicon?

I think I have seen something close, it is just like the Olu in some years will now say that Edo got the Ogie title from Itsekiri when the etymology is clearly in Edo

UGBE634:
Nor be mouth you nor reach

Let's keep our interactions within nairaland and the topic. If we venture out of it to learn about each other in real life you may be shocked and intimidated by what you find out. In fact, You go actually shock sha, so make we leave talk of who reach or who no reach lol..

UGBE634:
I think I have seen something close, it is just like the Olu in some years will now say that Edo got the Ogie title from Itsekiri when the etymology is clearly in Edo

Just like you Yorubas are now saying it was yorubas that founded lagos, that Benin never ruled parts of Yoruba lands that Ife was an empire, and now saying Yoruba introduced the Obaship to Benin when it is actually the other way around.

davidnazee:
Let's keep our interactions within nairaland and the topic. If we venture out of it to learn about each other in real life you may be shocked and intimidated by what you find out. In fact, You go actually shock sha, so make we leave talk of who reach or who no reach lol..

I would not show myself in real life because of the army of Edo youth who are ready to behead me for thinking otherwise, it is like a herd mentality, you people seem to think alike no matter how much fact is shown to you

What I seem to be so perturbed about is that a full graduate who was taught in English all through his schooling totally misread that. Quite shocking, no wonder my father seem to have called state universities advanced secondary schools

UGBE634:
I think I have seen something close, it is just like the Olu in some years will now say that Edo got the Ogie title from Itsekiri when the etymology is clearly in Edo

They pieced together Yoruba and EDO titles and even you as a stranger can easily tell what part falls into Edo and what part falls into Yoruba.

Ogie-Ame, Iyasere, Ologbosere... these are titles any Edo subgroup can easily relate with.

Efewestern:
Ogie is not Duke bro. Ogie is king. There's no way you want to twist this hard fact. Quote me anywhere. Ogie means KING.

All name that has Oba attached to it are traced to Bini. No other Edoid group bears any Oba title. They all make use of Ogie. So why should we believe that Oba is the rightful word for King instead of the well accepted Ogie?

Oba of Uvwie 😂

Ogie may mean ruler not necessarily King. In all of Edo south no ruler goes by the title Ogie, it's Enogie and their powers/functions are limited to being Dukes.
Outside of Edo south like Delta Ogie may mean King but in Edo south it has a different meaning and function. Oba is king here and Ogie/Enogie are dukes.

Efewestern:
They pieced together Yoruba and EDO titles and even you as a stranger can easily tell what part falls into Edo and what part falls into Yoruba.

Ogie-Ame, Iyasere, Ologbosere... these are titles any Edo subgroup can easily relate with.

I am trying to compare the Ogie scenario in Itsekiri to the Oba scenario in Benin vis a vis yoruba groups. I am trying to say how laughable it would be if the Itsekiri come up in some years time to say the Ogie title is native, such laughable scenario can be compared to what some Binis are doing with the "Oba" title

AreaFada2:
Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.

Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba.

Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin.

But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.

Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre?

I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.

lol, where do I even start in addressing the mixture of half truths and some complete falsehoods in this write-up?
Do you speak Yoruba language for starters?

Infact, saying 'Oba' is anything but Yoruba is like saying 'Ori' is not head in Yoruba. The word is as fundermentally Yoruba as a word can get.

Do you know the meanings of Obaluaye, Obatala or Obalufon?

Do you know why Sango is known by the name Oba Koso?

Do you know why Oba'nta is one of the premier fathers of the Ijebu people?

All these our Alaafin (Owner of the palace- Aafin), Olowo (Lord of Owo), Deeji which is short for Owafadeji (Bestowed the crown - Ade), Owa Obokun (The first to get Sea water -Okun), Arinjale, Awujale (Spread to reign over land- Ile/Ale), Ewi (The eloquent speaker) Etc does not mean KING... they are what can be best described as customized or place specific honorifics.. They are all Obas.

Pride is such a strong motivating factor in historical distortion.

davidnazee:
Ogie may mean ruler not necessarily King. In all of Edo south no ruler goes by the title Ogie, it's Enogie and their powers/functions are limited to being Dukes.
Outside of Edo south like Delta Ogie may mean King but in Edo south it has a different meaning and function. Oba is king here and Ogie/Enogie are dukes.

see who is correcting my written Bini, Ogie is king
Enogie means the king

Their powers are not limited to being dukes, it is because Bini seem to have had a centralized system whose root is obviously foreign.

UGBE634:
I am trying to compare the Ogie scenario in Itsekiri to the Oba scenario in Benin vis a vis yoruba groups. I am trying to say how laughable it would be if the Itsekiri come up in some years time to say the Ogie title is native, such laughable scenario can be compared to what some Binis are doing with the "Oba" title

Well Itsekiri won't be far from the truth in that regards. They migrated to a land owned by an Ogie and given accommodation by the Ogie, so the title is actually native to that land.

Your still dey learn bro.

davidnazee:
Well Itsekiri won't be far from the truth in that regards. They migrated to a land owned by an Ogie and given accommodation by the Ogie, so the title is actually native to that land.

Your still dey learn bro.

when we talk of IQ levels, you are obviously very low. Did you even understand what I wrote? Please stop quoting me

UGBE634:
see who is correcting my written Bini, Ogie is king
Enogie means the king

Their powers are not limited to being dukes, it is because Bini seem to have had a centralized system whose root is obviously foreign.

If you are actually Bini (which you are not), you will understand that Enogie means The ruler, not the king as you falsely or blindly assume.
And they are dukes, subordinate to the Great Oba of Benin.

UGBE634:
when we talk of IQ levels, you are obviously very low. Did you even understand what I wrote? Please stop quoting me

What you wrote is clear as day light. Don't be embarrassed if your errors are called out.

davidnazee:
If you are actually Bini (which you are not), you will understand that Enogie means The ruler, not the king as you falsely or blindly assume.
And they are dukes, subordinate to the Great Oba of Benin.

I can't be talking with a non-entity like you,
Ogie- king
Enogie-Talks of the personage, The king. I am not arguing with you,I am telling you I am not your mate. Oba is anything but native, has no meaning whatsoever in Edo

davidnazee:
What you wrote is clear as day light. Don't be embarrassed if your errors are called out.

I don't see how my errors will be cancelled out when the etymology of Ogie is certainly not in Itsekiri
Clearly understanding is not your forte

AreaFada2:
Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.

Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba.

Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin.

But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.

Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre?

I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.

BTW. Yoruba did not copy - Elema, Aro (which you guys call Ero), Odofin (which you guys call Edohen) from Benin.
They exist as both titles of palace chiefs and that of the powerful Ogboni aristocracy (Iware/Eghare) as well as the Hierarchy within Ifa Orunmila (Awo cadets)

In Ifa for example:
The Odofin is the second ranking Babalawo after the Oluwo
The Aro is the third ranking Babalawo
The Elemo/Agoro is a chief superintendent of the traditional rites

And that is why you will find these titles in both Eastern AND Western Yorubaland. contrary to your submission that the geographical scope of these titles are limited within Yorubaland. You find them all over. In Ikirun, Iwo, Ilesa (which you mentioned), Abeokuta, Ede, Offa, Ketu. Etc and finally in IFE itself, including areas far removed from Benin influence.

scholes0:
BTW. [b]Yoruba did not copy - Elema, Aro (which you guys call Ero), Odofin (which you guys call Edohen) from [/b]Benin.
They exist as both titles of palace chiefs and that of the powerful Ogboni aristocracy (Iware/Eghare) as well as the Hierarchy within Ifa Orunmila (Awo cadets)

In Ifa for example:
The Odofin is the second ranking Babalawo after the Oluwo
The Aro is the third ranking Babalawo
The Elemo/Agoro is a chief superintendent of the traditional rites

And that is why you will find these titles in both Eastern AND Western Yorubaland. contrary to your submission that the geographical scope of these titles are limited within Yorubaland. You find them all over. In Ikirun, Iwo, Ilesa (which you mentioned), Abeokuta, Ede, Offa, Ketu. Etc Areas far removed from Benin influence.

what is now your thought as it pertains to those titles

scholes0:
lol, where do I even start in addressing the mixture of half truths and some complete falsehoods in this write-up?
Do you speak Yoruba language for starters?

Infact, saying 'Oba' is anything but Yoruba is like saying 'Ori' is not head in Yoruba. The word is as fundermentally Yoruba as a word can get.

Do you know the meanings of Obaluaye, Obatala or Obalufon?

Do you know why Sango is known by the name Oba Koso?

Do you know why Oba'nta is one of the premier fathers of the Ijebu people?

All these our Alaafin (Owner of the palace- Aafin), Olowo (Lord of Owo), Deeji which is short for Owafadeji (Bestowed the crown - Ade), Owa Obokun (The first to get Sea water -Okun), Arinjale, Awujale (Spread to reign over land- Ile/Ale), Ewi (The eloquent speaker) Etc does not mean KING... they are what can be best described as customized or place specific honorifics.. They are all Obas.

Pride is such a strong motivating factor in historical distortion.

Ah! Mr Fifth columnist is here.

You just confirmed what we all already knew. These rulers began as housekeeper, priest, baron or speaker.
Is there any serious student of history who doesn't know these meanings? You talk as if Yoruba is some kind of Sumerian cuneiform or Egyptian hieroglyphic language.

You are still reeling out mythical figures that cannot be proven to have existed as evidence of Oba?

Take Sango as third king of Oyo for example, how reasonable is the timeline and the story? I have read it in many books and saw films on it. No logic at all.

In Benin, we had Oba-godo in Igodomigodo. as an Ogiso. Ogiso meant not god literally from the sky but one heavenly ordained. How could someone whose childhood, parents, family and house and quarter in Benin were known be directly from the sky? It was about divine ordination.

But you still parade mythical figures as evidence of real kingly Obas. Lol.

By the way, I am also familiar with Ifa corpus. I knew the story of Eji Ogbe (Oba Odu) in particular as a kid already.

Europeans have various names for prime minister: Bundeskanzler, Kanzler, Taoiseach, First Minister, Prime Minister, etc. All don't literally mean Prime minister but became regarded as such because all are heads of government. But all have histories about their genesis and evolution. So king came to be known by various names. Even if not literally but all now mean or imply king in that dialect/culture.

So your attempt at reeling out meanings of Olu, Owa, Awujale, Soun, Ooni or Alafin again proves your assumption of oversabi. I probably knew these meanings long before you did. Even if there was anything I didn't know, there are least two major palaces in SW I can ask for information at any time.

scholes0:
BTW. Yoruba did not copy - Elema, Aro (which you guys call Ero), Odofin (which you guys call Edohen) from Benin.
They exist as both titles of palace chiefs and that of the powerful Ogboni aristocracy (Iware/Eghare) as well as the Hierarchy within Ifa Orunmila (Awo cadets)

In Ifa for example:
The Odofin is the second ranking Babalawo after the Oluwo
The Aro is the third ranking Babalawo
The Elemo/Agoro is a chief superintendent of the traditional rites

And that is why you will find these titles in both Eastern AND Western Yorubaland. contrary to your submission that the geographical scope of these titles are limited within Yorubaland. You find them all over. In Ikirun, Iwo, Ilesa (which you mentioned), Abeokuta, Ede, Offa, Ketu. Etc and finally in IFE itself, including areas far removed from Benin influence.

One quick correction. Aro and Ero are not same o. They are two different titles in Benin. That Edohen means Odofin is a mere conjecture. Edohen, Oliha, Ero and Eholo are the oldest titles. As old as Ogiso. They are actually village rulers, but now grown to meet Benin. I have read many SW writers' papers and theses with these errors.
Funny that a very good paper published in SW traced Ijesha/Ilesha titles and their origins. It made it clear of their Benin origins. Yet Ife is nearby? Why then?

AreaFada2:
Ah! Mr Fifth columnist is here.

You just confirmed what we all already knew. These rulers began as housekeeper, priest, baron or speaker.
Is there any serious student of history who doesn't know these meanings? You talk as if Yoruba is some kind of Sumerian cuneiform or Egyptian hieroglyphic language.

You are still reeling out mythical figures that cannot be proven to have existed as evidence of Oba?

Take Sango as third king of Oyo for example, how reasonable is the timeline and the story? I have read it in many books and saw films on it. No logic at all.

In Benin, we had Oba-godo in Igodomigodo. as an Ogiso. Ogiso meant not god literally from the sky but one heavenly ordained. How could someone whose childhood, parents, family and house and quarter in Benin were known be directly from the sky? It was about divine ordination.

But you still parade mythical figures as evidence of real kingly Obas. Lol.

By the way, I am also familiar with Ifa corpus. I knew the story of Eji Ogbe (Oba Odu) in particular as a kid already.

Europeans have various names for prime minister: Bundeskanzler, Kanzler, Taoiseach, First Minister, Prime Minister, etc. All don't literally mean Prime minister but became regarded as such because all are heads of government. But all have histories about their genesis and evolution. So king came to be known by various names. Even if not literally but all now mean or imply king in that dialect/culture.

So your attempt at reeling out meanings of Olu, Owa, Awujale, Soun, Ooni or Alafin again proves your assumption of oversabi. I probably knew these meanings long before you did. Even if there was anything I didn't know, there are least two major palaces in SW I can ask for information at any time.

in some quarters, it was strictly Ogiso Igodo, the Oba seem to have been the palace addition to it

UGBE634:
in some quarters, it was strictly Ogiso Igodo, the Oba seem to have been the palace addition to it

Yet, Europeans documented Oba in Benin title in a letter dated 1502, yet nothing about Oba in any Yoruba or "Yoruboid" area like Iwerre?

UGBE634. Just take your side of the divide and defend it bravely. I make no secret of my SW links but also clear about where I stand in the effort to straighten things that others wrote (basically wanting to dictate Benin history) when Britain denied us education. Even refusing us permission to build and fund our own schools.