₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
You would be one of the first to admit the bold ■ and your second is partly obviously true, since "Immediate after" is subjective, a la day like a thousand years.

Are you saying, 'Adam would have died at some point in time', in Eden or not and regardless?

beat me to it... I've had that post in my mind for the past day.. "I've finally got him"

Kobojunkie:
The writer isn't here for you to question, is he?

Also, you do not question someone by offering up what amounts to your personal opinions as a better meaning to their account of events particularly since you were privy to the details of the event in question, do you?

My personal opinions?
I see what you're doing, you're caught up against the wall, and have resulted in playing "I don't know," to avoid having your 'beliefs" which you cannot validate or prove debunked. Is that what is happening here?

Even though the writer didn't say it, we can assume they lived on land. How? Because there were trees, animals, etc. Since we found the documents on earth, and they described scenes with the language we are familiar with or can relate to, I can assume, adam was on earth.

there's something very interesting about this verse though

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Unless I can assume a day is 24 hours. Isn't it?

When I say a closed system, I was referring to the earth itself and not the garden. was there no such thing as
"over population"
"disease"
"birth defects", and so on?
hmmm?

kkins25:
■My personal opinions? I see what you're doing, you're caught up against the wall, and have resulted in playing "I don't know," to avoid having your 'beliefs" which you cannot validate or prove debunked. Is that what is happening here?
■ Even though the writer didn't say it, we can assume they lived on land. How? Because there were trees, animals, etc. Since we found the documents on earth, and they described scenes with the language we are familiar with or can relate to, I can assume, adam was on earth.
there's something very interesting about this verse though Unless I can assume a day is 24 hours. Isn't it?
■ When I say a closed system, I was referring to the earth itself and not the garden. was there no such thing as "over population" "disease"
"birth defects", and so on? hmmm?

1. There you go again rambling! Try to follow the conversation and stop thinking you have mindreading abilities... you don't !

2. Arrggghh!! Land, animals, trees, etc., are found only on earth and nowhere else, I see?

3. Pay attention! Your closed system theory only makes sense if over population, disease, birth defects, etc., where stated as being possible in the garden. There is no evidence that such things were. So, all you have are assumptions and nothing more.

budaatum:
You would be one of the first to admit the bold and your second is partly obviously true, since "Immediate after" is subjective, a la day like a thousand years.

■ Are you saying, 'Adam would have died at some point in time', in Eden or not and regardless?

Death only came into the picture as a consequence of Adam's sin against God, and what followed that was eviction from the garden. What was more likely to have happened had adam not sinned is that he would have become an eternal being — had eaten from the tree of Life— and maybe served some fruit by God Himself from the tree of knowledge of good and Evil aka Truth.

Kobojunkie:
Death only came into the picture as a consequence of Adam's sin against God, and what followed that was eviction from the garden.
What was more likely to have happened had adam not sinned is that he would have become an eternal being — had eaten from the tree of Life— and maybe served some fruit by God Himself from the tree of knowledge of good and Evil aka Truth.

😎😎😎

kkins25:
😎😎😎

All you got to do is stick with what is written and resist every urge to insert any garbage between the lines Is all.

Kobojunkie:
Death only came into the picture as a consequence of Adam's sin against God, and what followed that was eviction from the garden. What was more likely to have happened had adam not sinned is that he would have become an eternal being — had eaten from the tree of Life— and maybe served some fruit by God Himself from the tree of knowledge of good and Evil aka Truth.

"Likely to have happened"?

Adam was 130 when he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

Personally, 930 is eternal. To have lived so long today, one would need to have been born in 1093AD, which was an awful long time ago. Would Adam have procreated at all, I wonder? I can see God with only 2 slaves, or perhaps God might have "likely" created some more, though eternal being Adam would have had to qualify as a God in his right too. A 930 year old person would be worshipped in any community or nation, I'd think.

That said, "eternal being"? Hope you not making stuff up, because, as far as I know, no living thing has ever become an "eternal being". They all die, and that includes the gods, though some do live 1000s of years.

Kobojunkie:
All you got to do is stick with what is written and resist every urge to insert any garbage between the lines Is all.

If this where a harry potter book fine.

Haven't people died trying to call the bluff of that book? Laws that govern people are built around this book, so, No sir. we need to tear every paragraph word for word... Im not also assuming.

You cant tell me not to sceutinize a book that claims i originated from "The Adams Family"( pun intended), and not question it.

Adam, eternal being or not, would be confined to the mechanics of reality. Physics, biology, etc.

budaatum:
"Likely to have happened"?

Adam was 130 when he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

Personally, 930 is eternal. To have lived so long today, one would need to have been born in 1093AD, which was an awful long time ago. Would Adam have procreated at all, I wonder? I can see God with only 2 slaves, or perhaps God might have "likely" created some more, though eternal being Adam would have had to qualify as a God in his right too. A 930 year old person would be worshipped in any community or nation, I'd think.

That said, "eternal being"? Hope you not making stuff up, because, as far as I know, no living thing has ever become an "eternal being". They all die, and that includes the gods, though some do live 1000s of years.

If you don't accept the story as told by the writer, then reject it in its entirety and move on. Simple!

kkins25:
If this where a harry potter book fine.

Haven't people died trying to call the bluff of that book? Laws that govern people are built around this book, so, No sir. we need to tear every paragraph word for word... Im not also assuming. You cant tell me not to sceutinize a book that claims i originated from "The Adams Family"( pun intended), and not question it.
Adam, eternal being or not, would be confined to the mechanics of reality. Physics, biology, etc.

In your attempts at scrutinizing be sure to understand or at least stick to scrutinizing that which is in fact written. If your goal is to reject what is written then reject all of it and move on. Your closed-system theory which rejects the reality and rules set by the writer of the story as far as the garden in order that you can instead impose your own ideas and rules fails for this reason..

You have never encountered an eternal being nor have you a world where death is not a constant so what the heck are you doing trying to impose your rules of human biology and physics in this?

Kobojunkie:
If you don't accept the story as told by the writer, then reject it in its entirety and move on. Simple!

Just accepting is not an option for me, as that would involve not using the brain in my head. An alternative is to try to understand the consequence of accepting the story or not, especially once I've accepted it's a story.

If I were placed in the Garden of Eden, I would not need a snake to tell me to ask a God why I would die if I ate the fruit of the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In fact, I'd start by asking what death is, and what good and evil are first. And after I ate it and did not die but went on to reproduce and create descendants in the billions, I'd likely not trust that God no more if I did to begin with.

Anyway. Thanks for your time.

budaatum:
■ Just accepting is not an option for me, as that would involve not using the Braun in my head. An alternative is to try to understand the consequence of accepting the story or not, especially once I've accepted it's a story.

If I were placed in the Garden of Eden, I would not need a snake to tell me to ask a God why I would die if I ate the fruit of the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In fact, I'd start by asking what death is, and what good and evil are first. And after I ate it and did not die but went on to reproduce and create descendants in the billions, I'd likely not trust that God no more if I did to begin with.

Anyway. Thanks for your time.

If we were in literature class discussing a book written by Shakespeare for instance, it would be the same approach, nothing new.

Kobojunkie:
If we were in literature class discussing a book written by Shakespeare for instance, it would be the same approach, nothing new.

Most don't believe Shakespeare. It would in fact be odd if we claimed Shakespeare should be believed, don't you think?

budaatum:
Most don't believe Shakespeare. It would in fact be odd if we claimed Shakespeare should be believed, don't you think?

What does it matter what most believe or do not believe? We are attempting here to dissect a story found in the book of Genesis as we would any story in a literature class.

Kobojunkie:
What does it matter what most believe or do not believe? We are attempting here to dissect a story found in the book of Genesis as we would any story in a literature class.

No, Kobojunkie, believers are not trying to dissect a story. Believers are defending their beliefs about the story. Or why else would people who read that Adam did not die when he ate a fruit be trying to redefine death to avoid the fact that the story describes a Garden of Eden owner who lied? Even the God is written to have said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil", which sounds like they were very alive indeed, unless you wish to claim they became dead like God.

Boko haram do that. They stop people from going to school so they don't get nourished with the knowledge of good and evil. They keep the book behind the cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth in a language the reader's can not understand to guard the way to the tree of life so the poor don't become like one of them. Nigeria does the same thing by not adequately funding our education system then hiring inexperienced youth corpers as teachers. Meanwhile, the "gods" send their own children to eat fruits of trees of knowledge in the Gardens of Harvard and Yale and Oxford and Cambridge.

If I tell you not to nourish yourself with knowledge I'm sure you'd ask why, if you don't first tell me to go and die. In fact, if you had not nourished yourself with knowledge you wouldn't be here discussing with buda!

Dissecting would be us asking why and what for, and what the consequences are, instead of believing the nonsense some, who themselves have eaten fruits of knowledge, tell some to believe.

budaatum:
No, Kobojunkie, believers are not trying to dissect a story. Believers are defending their beliefs about the story. Or why else would people who read that Adam did not die when he ate a fruit be trying to redefine death to avoid the fact that the story describes a Garden of Eden owner who lied? Even the God is written to have said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil", which sounds like they were very alive indeed, unless you wish to claim they became dead like God. ....

All this makes no sense at all considering this isn't a discussion about dissecting what you think others believe or do not believe. I no get time to entertain you running all over the place saying nothing meaningful in the end. If you have nothing else to say as per what is in fact presented by the writer in the story, then maybe we are done with this discussion here.

Kobojunkie:
All this makes no sense at all considering this isn't a discussion about dissecting what you think others believe or do not believe.

If you have nothing else to say as per what is in fact presented by the writer in the story, then maybe we are done with this discussion here.

I don't expect what I say to make sense to a believer. Dissecting a story critically is beyond such individuals. Thankfully, they are not the only readers here.

budaatum:
I don't expect what I say to make sense to a believer. Dissecting a story critically is beyond such individuals. Thankfully, they are not the only readers here.

If dissecting the story critically means injecting your private interpretations into what is written, what makes you think you are any different from those you specially tag believers? From where I sit you are no different from them.

Again, stick to analyzing what is written or waka pass me with your own interpretation bullsheet.

Kobojunkie:
If dissecting the story critically means injecting your private interpretations into what is written,...

Private understanding, more likely, long before interpreting. And why shouldn't I? Do I not have eyes to read and a brain with which to understand? If not, does that not make a mockery of the Comforter Jesus sent from the father?

Private interpretation is when people start redefining the meaning of death so it means living an extra 800 years and supposedly populating the earth. If I died and went on to do a tenth of what Adam did, my name, at least, will live on for as long as Adam's.

Kobojunkie:
Again, stick to analyzing what is written ...

I always do, Kobojunkie. Most here can't seem to read, so we unfortunately never get to the analyzing stage.

But just in case you are up to it.
https://www.nairaland.com/6795272/reeves-pass

budaatum:
■Private understanding, more likely, long before interpreting. And why shouldn't I? Do I not have eyes to read and a brain with which to understand? If not, does that not make a mockery of the Comforter Jesus sent from the father?
■ Private interpretation is when people start redefining the meaning of death so it means living an extra 800 years and supposedly populating the earth. If I died and went on to do a tenth of what Adam did, my name, at least, will live on for as long as Adam's.I always do, Kobojunkie. Most here can't seem to read, so we unfortunately never get to the analyzing stage. But just in case you are up to it.
https://www.nairaland.com/6795272/reeves-pass

1. Stop lying to yourself!

2. Abeg waka pass me, o'jare! I no get time to go run around the wheel with you.

Kobojunkie:
1. Stop lying to yourself!

2. Abeg waka pass me, o'jare! I no get time to go run around the wheel with you.

Of course you "no get time to" critically read the book you believe. That would require far too much work than just calling buda names.

I feel you.

budaatum:
Of course you "no get time to" critically read the book you believe. That would require far too much work than just calling buda names. I feel you.

Abeg waka pass me!

Kobojunkie:
Abeg waka pass me!

No, I shall not waka pass you. You should know by now that buda is not one to obey your commands.

To earth, to not earth?
To eternal beings, to not eternal beings?
A garden, or a jungle?
Kobo, it seems, is 100% guaranteed that whoever crafted the tales in genesis has some form of historical authority. Well, Kobo fears to Analyze his "book" beyond what was written. But, sitting on the self assumed throne of Christian theology.
One must wonder, does kobo not acknowledged the poetry of the bible and its deliberate masquerade of concepts with layers of layers of layers of parables, poems, etc.

I wonder, if jesus hadn't explicitly stated that most of his teachings were parables, would kobo hold them to be historical occurrences?

could there be instances where the writer forgot to mention that they were parables? Given no one was there to ask them for interpretation as we see in the gospels of christ?

Again, the earth, adam, and eve, are all physical coordinates of life. If indeed they occured, then I should be able to examine every attribute of those coordinates.

A taling snake? Really? To talk the snake would need vocal cords. Without scrutiny we've been led to believe that the serpent was a physical belly crawling snake. But serpent could have been used figuratively, can't it? Okay.
If there is one aspect of the story of the garden describe with poetic device, then, it makes logical sense to induce that other elements of the story may also be figurative or perhaps symbolic.

I prefer not to dabble in the waters of philosophy since I'm not an avid swimmer. But, the jungles of wild life is my play ground.
"Garden" "animals" "man" "plants" these are buzzword I'm familiar with.

You claim we make assumptions but you made the very first.

You assume the writer of the book is knowledgeable of matters concerning the creation of the world.

You assume that the writer has potrayal of the incidence is without error.

You assume that we all "believe" and would settle with what the writer would make us believe about the creation of Man.

And again, you're very wrong. If the books of Shakespeare has been ripped to shred by countless philosophers, and master of the literature. How much more a book that 3+ billion people use as source of morality, judgement, and basis of existence. hmmm?

I see you use serpent-ish devices to obscure your opponents. So why not first of all tell us

1) Do you hold the biblical account of creation as the only valid one?

2) Do you serve Yahweh as Creator of existence or as another alternative(cuz from what you sometimes write I'm no longer sure).

3) Based on passages as written in KJV, adam and eve were supposed to die the day they ate the fruit. The response of the serpent makes it clear and as a mattter of fact, the serpent didn't lie. It said "You wont SURELY die" and they didn't surely die. They lived for almost 10 centuries.

If we are to follow your principle, suppose i was born and raised in some remote jungle like the amazon forest and my holy book tells me to kill other humans. Are you saying i can't question my book even when my senses tell me something fishy is going on?


Mind you, if the bible can be used as authority, i hope you know that, Its common sense, that has led us to where we are today as humans who no longer stone people for commiting adultery. Thats the level of development we've achieved because we question things..

Do you know who still stones women for adultery? Muslims. Y? because, just like you, they dare not view the koran in any lense bar what was written by the writer.

kkins25:
To earth, to not earth?
To eternal beings, to not eternal beings?
A garden, or a jungle?
Kobo, it seems, is 100% guaranteed that whoever crafted the tales in genesis has some form of historical authority. Well, Kobo fears to Analyze his "book" beyond what was written. But, sitting on the self assumed throne of Christian theology.
One must wonder, does kobo not acknowledged the poetry of the bible and its deliberate masquerade of concepts with layers of layers of layers of parables, poems, etc. . .

Stop writing these meaningless epistles to nowhere abeg!

Learn to focus on the topic and conversation at hand instead. The topic is about the story of Adam and Even in the garden. No mention of Jesus Christ, the person, Muslims, believers, Christian theology, etc. We are on just the garden of Eden and the claims you make of what is written. Don't try to read my mind because you suck at that so just FOCUS!

Kobojunkie:
Stop writing these meaningless epistles to nowhere abeg!

Learn to focus on the topic and conversation at hand instead. The topic is about the story of Adam and Even in the garden. No mention of Jesus Christ, the person, Muslims, believers, Christian theology, etc. We are on just the garden of Eden and the claims you make of what is written. Don't try to read my mind because you suck at that so just FOCUS!

Are adam and eve the origin of humanity?

kkins25:
Are adam and eve the origin of humanity?

Do you completely reject the story told in Genesis?

Kobojunkie:
Do you completely reject the story told in Genesis?

Oh yes!

kkins25:
Oh yes!

Then we have nothing to discuss here, right?

Kobojunkie:
Do you completely reject the story told in Genesis?

Kobojunkie:
Then we have nothing to discuss here, right?

This is absolutely completely true.

So stop discussing and shut up and learn!

Kobojunkie:
Then we have nothing to discuss here, right?

Is this another way of saying "You have the right to believe in whatever you choose?" 🤣 🤣 🤣

kkins25:
Is this another way of saying "You have the right to believe in whatever you choose?" 🤣 🤣 🤣

Nope!