When I cited the fact that most of the greatest scientists in history, (not the average ones) were Christians, a so-called NL atheist said they were atheists but claimed to be Christians because of the fear of death.

I found that ridiculous because if that were to be the case for Christians, Christianity would virtually be history today, considering that the fact that the persecutions faced by atheist at any time in history was childplay compared to those faces by the early Christians.

I however was shocked when his comment was being approved of by many so-called NL atheists, who claim Christianity is a religion that thrives because of fear factor, despite baby Christians like Leah Shabiru proving them to be grown-up cowards.

Recently I saw a story of another atheist who immediately turned Christian and started begging the same God he claimed he never believed existed, to give him another chance, when he found himself on the cusp of death after his breathing had ceased and the fight to save his live was in full swing by the medics.

https://www.nairaland.com/7976473/atheist-says-he-died-returned#128044749

Hence I asked why do they have to always wait til they're faced with death before they get sense?

I find it hard to understand because by then it could be too late so why wait until that last minute?

It doesn't make sense at all.

*Politeness*
What I'll NEVER understand is how anyone can say he is an atheist, that there is no God. The most you can say is that YOU DON'T KNOW!!!

** By the way, nobody has ever died and come back. Because, by definition, if you truly died you can't come back. So only way we can know is to have someone on the other side tell us!

You're talking rubbish. You keep making a lot of false assumptions and generalizations about atheists and Christians.

The fact that most of the greatest scientists in history were Christians doesn't mean that Christianity is true or that science supports it. It just means that they were born and raised in a culture that was dominated by Christianity, and that they had to conform to the social norms and expectations of their time. Many of them faced persecution, censorship, or even death if they openly challenged the church or the Bible.

Let's take an example, Galileo, who was forced to recant his heliocentric theory and spent the last years of his life under house arrest . We also have Darwin who delayed publishing his theory of evolution for decades because he feared the backlash from the religious establishment.

And Einstein, who was not a Christian but more of a deist, was accused of being an atheist and a communist by some Christians who rejected his theory of relativity.

Again, atheism does not answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods . Atheists do not believe in God because they do not find any convincing evidence or logical arguments for his existence. They do not need God to explain the origin of the universe, the diversity of life, the morality of humans, or the meaning of their lives. They rely on reason, evidence, and science to understand the world and themselves.

The anecdote of the atheist who turned Christian on his deathbed is not a reliable or representative source of information. It is a hearsay story that has no verification or corroboration. It is also a logical fallacy known as an appeal to emotion, which tries to persuade by manipulating the feelings of the audience, rather than by providing valid reasons or evidence.

Even if the story were true, it would not prove anything about the validity of Christianity or the falsity of atheism. It would only show that one person, under extreme stress and fear, changed his mind about something. People change their minds all the time, for various reasons, and not always for the better. The fact that some people convert to Christianity on their deathbeds does not mean that Christianity is true, any more than the fact that some people convert to Islam, Buddhism, or Scientology on their deathbeds means that those religions are true.

So, to answer your question, atheists do not have to wait until they are faced with death before they get sense. They already have sense, because they use their reason and evidence to form their beliefs, and they are open to changing their minds if new evidence or arguments are presented. They do not base their beliefs on fear, ignorance, or wishful thinking, like some religious people do. Neither do they wait until the last minute to make a decision, because they have already made a decision based on the best available information.

Wait for them to come and claim that all of these weren't real atheists as the poster above.

People love to learn in hard ways

God dey ooooo, I can't proof it but I knw it

osmosis101:
People love to learn in hard ways

That makes sense.

By the way, I don't have to like my own posts as some atheists often do to fake the impression of superior argument. So do not be deceived by the many likes their post often receive. It doesn't mean what they say is more sensible, logical or the truth, but their desperation to give that impression. Check the screenshot below to understand better, because the post in it belongs to a popular and active atheist whose three other monikers are also in view, and suddenly his post had received 3 likes. I'm not that desperate to give the false impression of superior argument.

jesusjnr2020:
Wait for them to come and claim that all of these weren't real atheists as the poster above.

Dude make sense. I was expecting you to quote me and counter my point with something reasonable. Lol

Botragelad:

Dude make sense. I was expecting you to quote me and counter my point with something reasonable. Lol

Don't have time to waste on nonsense.

Don't wait til death comes before you get sense.

You may not be that lucky.

jesusjnr2020:
Don't have time to waste on nonsense.

Don't wait til death comes before you get sense.

You may not be that lucky.

Haha. As expected. Easy way out for you! Lol
Was ready to dismantle your unfounded theories.

Botragelad:

Haha. As expected. Easy way out for you! Lol
Was ready to dismantle your unfounded theories.

Not really, except you don't realize the wisdom of silence being the best answer to nonsense.

jesusjnr2020:
Not really, except you don't realize the wisdom of silence being the best answer to nonsense.

You replied me. Correct? Lol

Botragelad:

You replied me. Correct? Lol

Yeah but not your nonsense post.

jesusjnr2020:
Yeah but not your nonsense post.

So where's the silence? Lol

Botragelad:

So where's the silence? Lol

The easy way out according to you.

jesusjnr2020:
The easy way out according to you.

That's no silence!

Come on buddy. You should know better. Lol

Botragelad:

That's no silence!

Come on buddy. You should know better. Lol

Show me my reply to your nonsensical post if no silence. Remember it's your post not you.

jesusjnr2020:
Show me my reply to your nonsensical post if no silence. Remember it's your post not you.

You literally quoted me. Lol
Now you derailing this thread!

Botragelad:

You literally quoted me. Lol
Now you derailing this thread!

You must have a short memory man. I only replied you after you quoted me and said "the easy way out" for choosing not to reply your initial post right? So I'm only replying your mentions not your original post.

The Op questions why atheists always wait til death before getting sense, and so far you're proving the Op right. Weldone.

One thing I admire about most atheists like Botragelad is their absolute sincerity and open-mindedness. They are willing to listen to reason, and even God is quoted in the Bible as saying, "come let's reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). So, I urge religious people like Jesusjnr2020 not to become defensive against their offensive. Instead, depending on the Holy Spirit, take time out of Christian love to explain to them.

I see that sincerity in him and so here I am to reason with him. So, this is my response to you Botragelad...

When you cite snippets of history featuring the likes of Galileo, you are actually referring to the fallibility of religion. There is a clear difference between religion and God.

If you had said you don't believe in religion, I would have had little issues with you. But to say you don't believe in God because of those reasons you gave up there

When I read the following from you, I was forced to ask you what you understand by the word "God":

Atheists do not believe in God because they do not find any convincing evidence or logical arguments for his existence. They do not need God to explain the origin of the universe, the diversity of life, the morality of humans, or the meaning of their lives. They rely on reason, evidence, and science to understand the world and themselves.

By the word "God", I simply understand the Creator of this Universe you and I are a part of - just like Zuckerberg is the creator of Facebook (though in a far lesser sense). So, how can you say there is no convincing evidence for the existence of God when everything actually proves his existence, including yourself and your brain that you're using to write this up there? Otherwise, tell me how your brain and yourself could have been a product of chance event.

Yes, I agree with your assertion that our beliefs should not be based on fear like many people who claim to be Christians do. Even the Bible itself says it again and again, "fear not" and that "the just shall live by faith" - not by fear. So, just like you, I don't agree with Christians who try to appeal to death as our reasons to believe in God because that actually contradicts the viewpoint of the Bible.

What I preach is that you look at the world and know that the world, beyond all doubts, is a product of a Real Conscious (or Superconscious) Being. This is absolutely undeniable. I don't see how you can deny this without being foolish.

As the Bible itself says, "the fool says in his heart that there is no God" (Psalm 53:1). Another scripture says, "you fools, why do you think that He who made the ear cannot hear or that He who made the eye cannot see?" (Psalm 94:8-9).

In line with that scripture above, I can equally ask you, "how can you have this powerful brain and you think that there's no Being who is responsible for its existence? And if you agree that there is such a Being, why would you think that such a Being would be incapable of thinking or reasoning or consciousness?"

If you have any objection to the existence of such a Being as I just described above, you let me know. But if you don't have any objection to it, it means that you have agreed that there is God because God is no other than the Creator of the world. I just described God in absolute existence and YOU are one undeniable evidence of His existence.

In your presentation there is a place where you said that atheists are "open to changing their minds if new (convincing) evidence or arguments are presented". So I ask, has my evidence or argument convinced you? If not, let me know how or why. Thank you.

Cc: Erad

My responses

You started out by saying as follows:

Botragelad:

Thanks for your reply, but I'm afraid you haven't convinced me at all. You've just repeated the same old arguments that have been refuted many times by atheists.

So, I was reading hoping to see your refutation but, honestly, I hardly found any. But in case you presume you refuted me successfully, let me respond to you point by point below:

1. You wrote the following...

You're confusing religion and God, but not in the way you think. You're right that there is a difference between religion and God, but it's not that religion is fallible and God is infallible. It's that religion is a human invention and God is a fictional character. Religion is a set of beliefs, practices, rituals, and institutions that humans have created to express their ideas God(s) is one of those ideas, a product of human imagination and culture, not a reality that exists independently of human minds. There is no evidence that God exists outside of human thought, and there is no reason to think that he does.

"There is no evidence that God exists outside of human thought, and there is no reason to think that he does" you wrote. Now, this reminds me of the question I posed up there that you are yet to answer: What does the word "God" mean to you? In line with that, I also ask, what constitutes a valid evidence to you? You know, because "God" and "evidence" are the two words you seem to be using most frequently. So, to have a meaningful discussion, we must explain these two words together.

I have defined God as the Creator of everything in the universe, with YOU, including your brain, eyes, ears, hands, etc as empirical here-and-now samples of His Creation. Yet you said that "there is no evidence that God exists outside of human thought, and there is no reason to think that he does", when I presented YOU chatting with me as a concrete evidence outside human thoughts, a real creature created by this God we are talking about.

So, what is your own definition of God? Note that when you said that God is "a product of human imagination and culture, not a reality that exists independently of human minds" up there, that is not a definition yet. Or, is it?

2. About My Bible Citation

You wrote:

When you cite the Bible as a source of authority, you're begging the question. You're assuming that the Bible is the word of God, and that it is true and reliable. But you have no basis for that assumption, other than your faith. The Bible is not a historical or scientific document, it is a collection of ancient writings that reflect the beliefs, values, and myths of the people who wrote them. The Bible is full of contradictions, errors, inconsistencies, and immoral teachings.

Honestly, it is very laughable that you who want us to take the path of science is making so many unfounded allegations here. For example, when did I mention to you that I'm quoting the Bible because it is an authority? Rather, I only quoted it as you would quote any other source to support what you already said.

For instance, it is logic when I quoted the scripture that who or whatever made your eye also has an ability akin to seeing or he couldn't be able to make your eye (Psalm 94:8,9). As a Latin adage said, "you can't give what you don't have".

So, try refuting the point rather than just castigating the Bible probably because you've heard someone else do the same. I could have quoted you or Plato, or anyone else or, as I've just done above👆, a Latin adage. But that doesn't mean I am claiming these sources are absolute authorities. Rather, I'm only saying that they support what I'm already saying. Or, are you saying we shouldn't be quoting sources anymore? In any case, from now, as much as possible, I'm not going to quote Bible sources to you.

3. Everything Proves The Existence Of God

You wrote:

[b]Where you say that everything proves the existence of God, you're making a huge leap of logic. You're going from the fact that the universe and life exist, to the conclusion that they must have been created by a conscious being. But that's not a valid inference, it's a fallacy. It's like saying that because a painting exists, it must have been painted by a human. But that's not true, a painting could have been made by a machine, or by natural forces, or by some other process.

Here, I think it would have been fairer for you to take a cue from the example I used myself instead of using painting and a painter. Saying that you are a proof that God exists is like saying that Facebook is a proof that someone (Zuckerberg) created it. And saying that God does not exist when you yourself exist, is as stupid as saying that Facebook could have created itself or created by chance. Just like what you went ahead to write...

The same goes for the universe and life. They could have been caused by natural laws, or by chance, or by some unknown mechanism. You can't just assume that they were caused by God, without any evidence or argument.[/b]

I am saying that "God" is the name I give to whoever or whatever caused them to exist. What do you have to say to this?

4. Your Frequent Use Of The Slang 'Lol'

You concluded your response by writing has follows...

So, to answer your question, no, you have not convinced me. You have only confirmed my atheism. You have shown me that you do not understand what atheism is, what God is, what the Bible is, what the world is, or what I am. Lol
Well, I'm here if you want to chat more. Cheers.

I have chosen to respond to you only because I believe you're sincere. Otherwise, my time is too precious to be wasted on charlatans who are just out to trash-talk. Your frequent use of the word 'lol' seems to suggest that you might belong among such charlatans. First, it indicates that you presume you are right and no one else can be right other than you. Again, it shows that you are not serious about what you are saying.

So, if you are serious, respond to me point by point as I have responded to you, addressing the issues I've raised one after the other especially if you don't agree with them. But if you keep showing that you are not serious then, don't expect any further response from me.

There are other things you said up there. But my responses to them will depend on the responses you give to the points I've raised now. Thank you.

The black man is mentally bankrupt...
Will rather believe in something unfounded than use their brain to acquire knowledge.
So you go around looking for "atheists" that converted?
That's desperation bro.

jesusjnr2020:
You must have a short memory man. I only replied you after you quoted me and said "the easy way out" for choosing not to reply your initial post right? So I'm only replying your mentions not your original post.

The Op questions why atheists always wait til death before getting sense, and so far you're proving the Op right. Weldone.

Why did you quote me at first?

Botragelad:

Why did you quote me at first?

How? Kindly show me the screenshot of where I quoted you before you did.

jesusjnr2020:
How? Kindly show me the screenshot of where I quoted you before you did.

You did. Lol

SharingIsLife:
One thing I admire about most atheists like Botragelad is their absolute sincerity and open-mindedness. They are willing to listen to reason, and even God is quoted in the Bible as saying, "come let's reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). So, I urge religious people like Jesusjnr2020 not to become defensive against their offensive. Instead, depending on the Holy Spirit, take time out of Christian love to explain to them.

I see that sincerity in him and so here I am to reason with him. So, this is my response to you Botragelad...

When you cite snippets of history featuring the likes of Galileo, you are actually referring to the fallibility of religion. There is a clear difference between religion and God.

If you had said you don't believe in religion, I would have had little issues with you. But to say you don't believe in God because of those reasons you gave up there

When I read the following from you, I was forced to ask you what you understand by the word "God":



By the word "God", I simply understand the Creator of this Universe you and I are a part of - just like Zuckerberg is the creator of Facebook (though in a far lesser sense). So, how can you say there is no convincing evidence for the existence of God when everything actually proves his existence, including yourself and your brain that you're using to write this up there? Otherwise, tell me how your brain and yourself could have been a product of chance event.

Yes, I agree with your assertion that our beliefs should not be based on fear like many people who claim to be Christians do. Even the Bible itself says it again and again, "fear not" and that "the just shall live by faith" - not by fear. So, just like you, I don't agree with Christians who try to appeal to death as our reasons to believe in God because that actually contradicts the viewpoint of the Bible.

What I preach is that you look at the world and know that the world, beyond all doubts, is a product of a Real Conscious (or Superconscious) Being. This is absolutely undeniable. I don't see how you can deny this without being foolish.

As the Bible itself says, "the fool says in his heart that there is no God" (Psalm 53:1). Another scripture says, "you fools, why do you think that He who made the ear cannot hear or that He who made the eye cannot see?" (Psalm 94:8-9).

In line with that scripture above, I can equally ask you, "how can you have this powerful brain and you think that there's no Being who is responsible for its existence? And if you agree that there is such a Being, why would you think that such a Being would be incapable of thinking or reasoning or consciousness?"

If you have any objection to the existence of such a Being as I just described above, you let me know. But if you don't have any objection to it, it means that you have agreed that there is God because God is no other than the Creator of the world. I just described God in absolute existence and YOU are one undeniable evidence of His existence.

In your presentation there is a place where you said that atheists are "open to changing their minds if new (convincing) evidence or arguments are presented". So I ask, has my evidence or argument convinced you? If not, let me know how or why. Thank you.

Cc: Erad

Thanks for your reply, but I'm afraid you haven't convinced me at all. You've just repeated the same old arguments that have been refuted many times by atheists.

You're confusing religion and God, but not in the way you think. You're right that there is a difference between religion and God, but it's not that religion is fallible and God is infallible. It's that religion is a human invention and God is a fictional character. Religion is a set of beliefs, practices, rituals, and institutions that humans have created to express their ideas God(s) is one of those ideas, a product of human imagination and culture, not a reality that exists independently of human minds. There is no evidence that God exists outside of human thought, and there is no reason to think that he does.

When you cite the Bible as a source of authority, you're begging the question. You're assuming that the Bible is the word of God, and that it is true and reliable. But you have no basis for that assumption, other than your faith. The Bible is not a historical or scientific document, it is a collection of ancient writings that reflect the beliefs, values, and myths of the people who wrote them. The Bible is full of contradictions, errors, inconsistencies, and immoral teachings.

Where you say that everything proves the existence of God, you're making a huge leap of logic. You're going from the fact that the universe and life exist, to the conclusion that they must have been created by a conscious being. But that's not a valid inference, it's a fallacy. It's like saying that because a painting exists, it must have been painted by a human. But that's not true, a painting could have been made by a machine, or by natural forces, or by some other process.
The same goes for the universe and life. They could have been caused by natural laws, or by chance, or by some unknown mechanism. You can't just assume that they were caused by God, without any evidence or argument.

You're also making a category mistake by saying God is the creator of all universe. You're applying a concept that only makes sense within the universe, to the universe itself. Creation is a process that involves time, space, matter, energy, and causation. But the universe is not a thing that exists within time, space, matter, energy, and causation. It is the totality of all those things. It is the framework in which creation takes place, not the product of creation. To say that God created the universe is like saying that God created logic, or math, or language. It's a nonsensical statement, because those are not things that can be created, they are systems that we use to describe and understand reality.

You then went on to say "I am an undeniable evidence of God's existence". Well, you're flattering yourself. You're implying that you are so special, so complex, so wonderful, that you could not have come into being without a divine plan.

Thing is, you are the result of billions of years of evolution, a process that explains the diversity and adaptation of life without invoking any supernatural agency.

So, to answer your question, no, you have not convinced me. You have only confirmed my atheism. You have shown me that you do not understand what atheism is, what God is, what the Bible is, what the world is, or what I am. Lol
Well, I'm here if you want to chat more. Cheers.

jesusjnr2020:
Don't have time to waste on nonsense.

Don't wait til death comes before you get sense.

You may not be that lucky.

A dumb ignorant follower of a useless imported god and religion telling people to get sense

What the actual f*ck

PoliteActivist:
*Politeness*
What I'll NEVER understand is how anyone can say he is an atheist, that there is no God. The most you can say is that YOU DON'T KNOW!!!

** By the way, nobody has ever died and come back. Because, by definition, if you truly died you can't come back. So only way we can know is to have someone on the other side tell us!

Why would that be the case? Why can't living people have the same certainty?

Botragelad:
You're talking rubbish. You keep making a lot of false assumptions and generalizations about atheists and Christians.

The fact that most of the greatest scientists in history were Christians doesn't mean that Christianity is true or that science supports it. It just means that they were born and raised in a culture that was dominated by Christianity, and that they had to conform to the social norms and expectations of their time. Many of them faced persecution, censorship, or even death if they openly challenged the church or the Bible.

Let's take an example, Galileo, who was forced to recant his heliocentric theory and spent the last years of his life under house arrest . We also have Darwin who delayed publishing his theory of evolution for decades because he feared the backlash from the religious establishment.

And Einstein, who was not a Christian but more of a deist, was accused of being an atheist and a communist by some Christians who rejected his theory of relativity.

Again, atheism does not answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods . Atheists do not believe in God because they do not find any convincing evidence or logical arguments for his existence. They do not need God to explain the origin of the universe, the diversity of life, the morality of humans, or the meaning of their lives. They rely on reason, evidence, and science to understand the world and themselves.

The anecdote of the atheist who turned Christian on his deathbed is not a reliable or representative source of information. It is a hearsay story that has no verification or corroboration. It is also a logical fallacy known as an appeal to emotion, which tries to persuade by manipulating the feelings of the audience, rather than by providing valid reasons or evidence.

Even if the story were true, it would not prove anything about the validity of Christianity or the falsity of atheism. It would only show that one person, under extreme stress and fear, changed his mind about something. People change their minds all the time, for various reasons, and not always for the better. The fact that some people convert to Christianity on their deathbeds does not mean that Christianity is true, any more than the fact that some people convert to Islam, Buddhism, or Scientology on their deathbeds means that those religions are true.

So, to answer your question, atheists do not have to wait until they are faced with death before they get sense. They already have sense, because they use their reason and evidence to form their beliefs, and they are open to changing their minds if new evidence or arguments are presented. They do not base their beliefs on fear, ignorance, or wishful thinking, like some religious people do. Neither do they wait until the last minute to make a decision, because they have already made a decision based on the best available information.

A bottle of whatever he drinks for this man and a round of applause!

there is always interconversion of people from one religion to another, it proves nothing.

jesusjnr2020:
When I cited the fact that most of the greatest scientists in history, (not the average ones) were Christians, a so-called NL atheist said they were atheists but claimed to be Christians because of the fear of death.

I found that ridiculous because if that were to be the case for Christians, Christianity would virtually be history today, considering that the fact that the persecutions faced by atheist at any time in history was childplay compared to those faces by the early Christians.

I however was shocked when his comment was being approved of by many so-called NL atheists, who claim Christianity is a religion that thrives because of fear factor, despite baby Christians like Leah Shabiru proving them to be grown-up cowards.

Recently I saw a story of another atheist who immediately turned Christian and started begging the same God he claimed he never believed existed, to give him another chance, when he found himself on the cusp of death after his breathing had ceased and the fight to save his live was in full swing by the medics.

https://www.nairaland.com/7976473/atheist-says-he-died-returned#128044749

Hence I asked why do they have to always wait til they're faced with death before they get sense?

I find it hard to understand because by then it could be too late so why wait until that last minute?

It doesn't make sense at all.

You know what doesn't make sense, trying to cobble together disparate NDE and claiming it points to your god especially when some of these experiences have nothing to do with your god.

This person who had an NDE did not experience your god so why do you think this means we should believe your god? That is what doesn't make sense.

The same bullshits argument as usual.

jesusjnr2020:
When I cited the fact that most of the greatest scientists in history, (not the average ones) were Christians, a so-called NL atheist said they were atheists but claimed to be Christians because of the fear of death.

I found that ridiculous because if that were to be the case for Christians, Christianity would virtually be history today, considering that the fact that the persecutions faced by atheist at any time in history was childplay compared to those faces by the early Christians.

I however was shocked when his comment was being approved of by many so-called NL atheists, who claim Christianity is a religion that thrives because of fear factor, despite baby Christians like Leah Shabiru proving them to be grown-up cowards.

Recently I saw a story of another atheist who immediately turned Christian and started begging the same God he claimed he never believed existed, to give him another chance, when he found himself on the cusp of death after his breathing had ceased and the fight to save his live was in full swing by the medics.

https://www.nairaland.com/7976473/atheist-says-he-died-returned#128044749

Hence I asked why do they have to always wait til they're faced with death before they get sense?

I find it hard to understand because by then it could be too late so why wait until that last minute?

It doesn't make sense at all.

You must be neurotic

How does the bullshits you wrote prove god existence ? All you wrote is just delusional spittle and hogwash nothing logical that prove there must be a god.