₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Thanks!

Petalss:
Mr Max, I have been longing to know your interpretation of this verse John 8:58, where Jesus says: "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'"

NowYouKnow:
What is the Meaning of JW PIMO?

MaxInDHouse:
It's a sacred secret that can be really difficult for a Muslim to understand but i will try and explain to the best of my knowledge.

The man who was born by Joseph and Mary didn't come through the usual reproduction process because he has been existing in heaven before as an angel. In fact he was the angel God spoke with @ Genesis 1:26 so when the time came for him to come and do a difficult task that no human could do God transformed him into an embryo in the womb of Mary.
His memories were taken away completely from him but because he wasn't born through the same process like all other men he had a perfect mind so he quickly understands whatever he learns even faster than all those who have been doing it before him.
So by the time God wanted him to start the work He (God) used His active force (Holy Spirit) to direct Jesus to John the baptist who at the time was baptizing Jews in preparation for the assignment God had for them as a nation.
It was immediately after his baptism that he regained all his lost memories and from then he began doing the things he used to do before his transformation that's why he could raise the dead, cure all manner of sickness and even control the forces of nature.
So when the Jews noticed all these they were confused and began questioning him on why he is not following the traditions of their ancestors that's why he uttered that statement:

"before all your ancestors (like Abraham) i have been existing"
This means Jesus knew what led their ancestors into what the Jews were holding so dearly: traditions

I hope this does it.

Petalss:
Okay, thanks

MaxInDHouse:
So he was created since the scriptures called him:
"The FIRSTBORN of all creation" Colossians 1:15

The FIRSTBORN of anything means the first to be created through that source!

Jozzy4:
So there was no God the Son before he came to earth? you just single handedly capsize the ship of trinity

Sand2022:
Even Father in the scriptures are also applied to people with beginning. Don't forget also that Jesus is called Everlasting Father.

Emusan:
That was because you don't understand the discussion you jump into

Emusan:
No! He is the Creator.
FIRSTBORN is preeminence
Only you know why you change FIRSTBORN to first to be created

MaxInDHouse:
Firstborn is part of those being born!

Jozzy4:
He wasn't a Son until his earthly mission

Can you just accept there wasn't God the Son or trinity before Jesus came to earth ?

Emusan:
NOTICE THE KEY WORD: being BORN not being CREATED
The two words are different!

Emusan:
Yes! He got the Title 'SON' during His mission on earth.

God the Son is also a Title.

Reason I said, you don't understand the discussion you jump into.

Jesus is The ETERNAL WORD OF GOD.

Jozzy4:
So therefore the title and position of " God the Son " doesn't exist before Jesus came to earth.

Trinity in the mud

MaxInDHouse:
Both means the same thing: beginning of life!

Sand2022:
Last time I posted about the meaning of Trinity which many obviously don't know. Today, I will be writing about Jesus origin.

My previous belief was that Jesus was a creature. This is because of what I was taught as a JW. The view is that Col 1:15 says that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation. The organization understand that to mean that Jesus was the first person created by God. They also understand the same about Only Begotten. They understand that begotten mean created. That Jesus is the only person directly created by Jehovah. And that after Jesus creation, God used Jesus to create all other things. That is why if you notice in their translation they added "other" in Col 1:16. Their view made them to use "a god" in their translation of John 1:1.

However, as I further went through the scriotures, I realized that the view is lacking. Why?

Why Jesus is not a Creature:

See John 1:1-3 once more.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence."

The bold face phrase shows clearly that Jesus cannot be a creature. Since this verse says that apart from Jesus, NOT even ONE thing came into existence, we only have two option, 1. If Jesus was created, Jesus must be the one who created himself. Why? Because apart from him, nothing was made. 2. He was not created.

The latter conclusion seems plausible.

Secondly, the word "all" that appeared in verse 3 is "panta" which the New World Translation added "other" at Col 1:16. "Other" was not added at John 1:3. Obviously, because it can't fit the rest of the sentence. You cannot add "other" when the verse clearly said that apart from him not even one thing came into existence. It is also noteworthy that if you read col 1:16 in their interlinear, you will notice that "other" is not there showing that "other" was added.

Thirdly, The book of John was written after the book of Colossians. So John must have known what Paul wrote at col 1:15,16 before he wrote that apart from Jesus "not even one thing came into existence". This shows that neither John nor Paul thought that Jesus was part of creation. That phrase at John 1:3 also shows that John didn't mean that Rev 3:14 be understood to mean that Jesus was a creature. John 1:3 was written after the book of Revelation. This means that Col 1:15 doesn't fit the rest of the scriptures if we understand "firstborn" to mean first created. Firstborn can also mean preeminence as in Exod 4:22.

But let's see Col 1:15, 16 ones more.

Let us analyse Colosians chapter 1:15-16 first, then we shall see what this firstborn means.

See col 1:16-17

"because by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all (other) things, and by means of him all (other) things were made to exist."

Why can we say that Jesus is not part of the creation?

The bible clearly says that all things created included both things visible and things invisible. This statement includes all created things in heaven. If Jesus was an invisible creature, then he created himself. If that is not plausible, then Jesus was not created. This scripture thus agrees with John 1:3, that not even one thing existed apart from Jesus.

Then why is he called the FIRSTBORN?

We read:

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him."

This verse is clearly self explanatory. Notice that verse 16 explains the reason he is the firstborn. It says "BECAUSE by means of him all things were created..." This is self explanatory, he is the firstborn because all things were made by him. Firstborn in this sense means preeminence or Lord of creation. In him were all things created and for him. The same preeminence is pointed out in verse 18.

What about Prov 8:22?

I don't see this verse as a strong evidence of Jesus creation. Wisdom was used here and was seen to be possessed by kings and many others. Now in verse 22, it was said that Jehovah possessed the wisdom. The Hebrew word can be translated possess, purchase or beget. The latter can be found at Gen 4:1 beget a child. The same Hebrew word occured there. Certainly, Jesus is begotten by the Father. Begetal is not the same as created. You create from other materials while you beget your kind, your nature. Man begets a human. It should also be borne in mind that Apostle John knew about Prov 8:22 before he wrote at John 1:3 that"not even one thing came into existence" apart from Jesus. So we cannot take everything in Prov 8:22 as literal.

For example this Proverb appear to say that Jesus came sometime within the creative activity of Jehovah. But John 1:1-3 and Col 1:15-17 says Jesus did ALL the creating, while God the Father must have featured in some way, Jesus is said to be the main creator. Not even one thing came into existence apart from Jesus. Of course, what Jesus does is often said to be done by God and vice versa because they dwell within themselves. John 14:10. But since God the Father occupy the Headship role, he is often credited with ownership of the work most of the times.

In all this, John 1:3 is both more clear and rules out any supposition that Jesus is a creature. Heb 1:3 even stated that the universe, all creation is sustained by the word of his power. Can a creature sustain creatures? This shows that all things issued from him and he is their sustainer.

But what about Begotten?

Trinitarians agree that Jesus is begotten. Like I said above, He is begotten, not made. What is the subject of discussion is what begotten mean. Some are of the opinion that Jesus was generated by the Father from all eternity. Meaning that there was no time that the Son was not in existence. I personally think that God split Himself in two such that the other half didn't have beginning of experience at life, but have the same nature and experience as the Father. And for the purposes of having other conscious creatures like humans, they took roles, one Father, and the other Son. Then from Father and Son issue the Holy Spirit. The Father playing role of Headship, the Son acting a subordinate role. There are many reasons to reason this way, as I write more on the lofty position of Jesus, this will naturally start to make sense. But for now let's see why we cannot fix a beginning of experience for Jesus.

Let's start with Prov 8:22. When was the Son installed or brought up or begotten?

Prov 8:22-24, identifies it as "the beginning of his ways", earliest of his achievement of long ago", then verse 23 use the word " from". It says " from ancient times.

This might appear to suggest a beginning in time, but not until we understand the meaning of Ancient times. The same Hebrew word is used at at Psalm 93:2. We also see the same word used for Jesus at Micah 5:2. But notice what Psalm 93:2 says.

"Your throne was firmly established long ago; From eternity you have existed."

Notice that the word " from eternity" is used of the Father as well. This cannot make us to think that God the Father started from somewhere in eternity. See again at Hab 1:12

12 Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, you appointed them to execute judgment; My Rock, you established them for punishment.

This is just few of where the same word is used of God. So the word ancient time or when "from" is used, we should not be tempted to think of beginning of existence. At worse beginning of experience.

Some have thought of the word "Son" attached to "begotten", as in, "only begotten Son" to say that for he to be a son, of necessity demands that he have a beginning. We can understand why one will say that, at least that is our own experience as humans, but the nature of God is not flesh. All the analogy we use for God must be borne in mind that it is not all encompassing, there are limitations to our analogies. For example while he is called only begotten Son, he is also called only begotten God at John 1:18. This made many scholars to see the begotten as a way of differentiating the function of the Father from that of the Son. Jesus is also called Everlasting Father at Isaiah 9:6. It is becoming clear that this might be because of roles they undertook from everlasting.

Let us move to other things said about Jesus that shows that he MUST be of the same essence or nature as his Father.

We ll consider that next week Thursday.

MaxInDHouse:
Both means the same thing: beginning of life!

MaxInDHouse:
It's a sacred secret that can be really difficult for a Muslim to understand but i will try and explain to the best of my knowledge.

The man who was born by Joseph and Mary didn't come through the usual reproduction process because he has been existing in heaven before as an angel. In fact he was the angel God spoke with @ Genesis 1:26 so when the time came for him to come and do a difficult task that no human could do God transformed him into an embryo in the womb of Mary.
His memories were taken away completely from him but because he wasn't born through the same process like all other men he had a perfect mind so he quickly understands whatever he learns even faster than all those who have been doing it before him.
So by the time God wanted him to start the work He (God) used His active force (Holy Spirit) to direct Jesus to John the baptist who at the time was baptizing Jews in preparation for the assignment God had for them as a nation.
It was immediately after his baptism that he regained all his lost memories and from then he began doing the things he used to do before his transformation that's why he could raise the dead, cure all manner of sickness and even control the forces of nature.
So when the Jews noticed all these they were confused and began questioning him on why he is not following the traditions of their ancestors that's why he uttered that statement:

"before all your ancestors (like Abraham) i have been existing"
This means Jesus knew what led their ancestors into at the Jews were holding so dearly: traditions

I hope this does it.

Emusan:
No!
Stop lying.

MaxInDHouse:
• Chief Jeremiah Oyeniyi Obafemi Awolowo was born in the year 1909

• Chief Jeremiah Oyeniyi Obafemi Awolowo came to life in the year 1909

What's the difference?

Emusan:
Firstborn is the point here!

It means PREEMINENCE.

If Chief Obafemi wasn't the FIRSTBORN of the family and he was CALLED the FIRSTBORN it means it's not about being BORN but RANK/POSITION.

This is very clear from the point of Col 1:15-18

MaxInDHouse:
But can we say as FIRSTBORN his existence began just as all other sons CHILDREN born into the family also began at some point in time?

Emusan:
This is why people like you FAILED IN EXAM.
The term FIRSTBORN isn't about human given BIRTH in this context of Col 1:15-18 but about POSITION/RANK
Why this simple English is so hard to comprehend for you?

MaxInDHouse:
FIRSTBORN in any ENGLISH dictionary of your choice.

Please we need it now!

Emusan:
This is why people like you FAILED IN EXAM.

The term FIRSTBORN isn't about human given BIRTH in this context of Col 1:15-18 but about POSITION/RANK

Why this simple English is so hard to comprehend for you?

" Jesus is First born of every creature " NOT first born of the uncreated.
Adam is in whose image?
Jesus is in whose image?
Trinity nah scam.


Emusan,in your family is your POSITION/RANK higher than the first born?

What is the POSITION/RANK of the first born of God?

Oga,Continue to deceive yourself.
What a dunce!

Emusan:
Funny enough!
Now directing me to dictionary the same you who claim I'm using human philosophy the other time.

The term FIRSTBORN was used for people who are not THE FIRST BORN IN THE FAMILY in the scripture that is the perfect example you need..

Emusan MUMU logic.


Are those "people who are not THE FIRST BORN IN THE FAMILY," creatures too?

Emusan:
Not only that, Col 1 expressly explained the THE TERM FIRSTBORN as used for Jesus. "...So that he MIGHT became FIRST in ALL THING"

Sorry, if Jesus was the (FIRSTCREATED the term never used for Him) then no need for Him to still come AND BECAME FIRST AGAIN IN ALL THING.

Very simple English understanding.

Emusan:
Funny enough!
Now directing me to dictionary the same you who claim I'm using human philosophy the other time.
The term FIRSTBORN was used for people who are not THE FIRST BORN IN THE FAMILY in the scripture that is the perfect example you need.
Not only that, Col 1 expressly explained the THE TERM FIRSTBORN as used for Jesus. "...So that he MIGHT became FIRST in ALL THING"
Sorry, if Jesus was the (FIRSTCREATED the term never used for Him) then no need for Him to still come AND BECAME FIRST AGAIN IN ALL THING.
Very simple English understanding.

Emusan:
This is why people like you FAILED IN EXAM.
The term FIRSTBORN isn't about human given BIRTH in this context of Col 1:15-18 but about POSITION/RANK
Why this simple English is so hard to comprehend for you?

Emusan:
God the Son isn't a Position!

O ma se oooo

The Title God the Son is to show Jesus was FULLY GOD AND EQUAL TO THE FATHER.

MaxInDHouse:
FIRSTBORN in any ENGLISH dictionary of your choice.

Please we need it now!

Janosky:

" Jesus is First born of every creature " NOT first born of the uncreated.
Adam is in whose image?
Jesus is in whose image?
Trinity nah scam.


Emusan,in your family is your POSITION/RANK higher than the first born?

What is the POSITION/RANK of the first born of God?

Oga,Continue to deceive yourself.
What a dunce!

Jozzy4:
The Interesting aspect is the word " First born" was never applied to the Father. Good riddance, the word " BORN " is for created beings, either last born or first born.