₦airaland Forum

The good thing about scientific explanation is that, it's not postponed or hidden.

But your spiritual explanation is hidden and postponed as if you are buying time to cook up answers somewhere.

MaxInDHouse:
So you too can believe what you never saw in mission shey?
Is it not the explanation of some people that you relied upon when talking about dinosaurs?
Ọmọ you are just deceiving yourself!🙂

kayjordan:
The good thing about scientific explanation is that, it's not postponed or hidden. But your spiritual explanation is hidden and postponed as if you are buying time to cook up answers somewhere.

There is no SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION to prove anything as long as we can't see it in motion just as you are demanding from spiritual explanation.

The benefit of spiritual explanation is that whatever we say will affect people now and in the future whereas the idea of dinosaurs is useless now and forever!🙂

Scientific explanations can be proven in both motion and still life images.

I guess you've seen an aeroplane fly above you right?

But I guess you don't see angels or witches on brooms fly above you?

The idea of dinosaurs is not useless because it's evidently part of history.

And not imaginarily part of history. If I may use that word.

And you will forever sound futuristic because even your "now" miracles aren't working.

MaxInDHouse:
There is no SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION to prove anything as long as we can't see it in motion just as you are demanding from spiritual explanation.

The benefit of spiritual explanation is that whatever we say will affect people now and in the future whereas the idea of dinosaurs is useless now and forever!🙂

kayjordan:
I guess you've seen an AEROPLANE fly above you right?

There is no way you can disprove God and angels without shooting yourself in the foot!
Ọmọ inventors of aeroplane ✈️ were believers in God and angels o!
So before you can speak boldly about SCIENCE against God and angels try to invent just one thing!🙂

There's no way to disprove what can't be seen or perceived for all to see and perceive.

Inventors of aeroplanes are believers, but they didn't use abracadabra or "in Jesus name" or "let there be aeroplane and there was aeroplane".

They used practical scientific methods to build aeroplanes instead.

Years of trials and errors gave them that knowledge.

MaxInDHouse:
There is no way you can disprove God and angels without shooting yourself in the foot!
Ọmọ inventors of aeroplane ✈️ were believers in God and angels o!
So before you can speak boldly about SCIENCE against God and angels try to invent just one thing!🙂

kayjordan:
Inventors of aeroplanes are believers, but they didn't use abracadabra or "in Jesus name" or "let there be aeroplane and there was aeroplane".

Now you are accusing yourself!🙂

I told you the practical application of what the Bible teaches just as science will teach you the practical application of how things should be done but instead of focusing on the application you are demanding abracadabra.

The Bible of course told us wonderful things that we can't prove how such a thing could happen just as no faculty could prove how life began but we all agree that somehow life has a beginning so whether Bible or Science both needs BELIEVE in things that is not visible! 😃

I agree, we should believe in God, a creator or something.

That creator, still remains unknown.

And the quickest way to put a meaning to the UNKNOWN, is to call it God.

You say the bible teaches about applications (general knowledge), and science teaches how application is done (processes) - therefore you mean in essence that, the Bible is the knowledge and science is the process of the idea/knowledge... right?


Okay.


That is quite true, because religion is "first knowledge" and science developed from it.

This also means that, science is the advanced knowledge of the Bible.

So wouldn't it be better to listen to refined and modernized knowledge than listen to background/archaic knowledge?

Bible knowledge = raw rice

Science = cooked rice

Both raw and cooked rice are important, but one is best enjoyed, one is refined, one is complete and one is more presentable, as evidence of finished work - and that is "cooked rice".

And not half cooked/half baked work.

MaxInDHouse:
Now you are accusing yourself!🙂

I told you the practical application of what the Bible teaches just as science will teach you the practical application of how things should be done but instead of focusing on the application you are demanding abracadabra.

The Bible of course told us wonderful things that we can't prove how such a thing could happen just as no faculty could prove how life began but we all agree that somehow life has a beginning so whether Bible or Science both needs BELIEVE in things that is not visible! 😃

Stop deluding yourself science starts with knowing what benefit we will get before going into a long process.
Real scientists has a target 🎯 as in what they want to achieve first before thinking about the procedure.

If Bible is the source of information then we need to know what is to be gained before thinking of how to practice it otherwise you will never get the benefit because it's in the process of practicing that you need to keep on observing how things works out gradually before you can be certain that you're going to the right direction.

BIBLE!
How did we get here?
Why injustice?
What are we to do?
What to expect in the process?
What are the long life benefits?

These are the most important but the idea of trial and error you call science makes no practical sense.

kayjordan:
I agree, we should believe in God, a creator or something. That creator, still remains unknown. And the quickest way to put a meaning to the UNKNOWN, is to call it God. You say the bible teaches about applications (general knowledge), and science teaches how application is done (processes) - therefore you mean in essence that, the Bible is the knowledge and science is the process of the idea/knowledge... right?
Okay.
That is quite true, because religion is "first knowledge" and science developed from it. This also means that, science is the advanced knowledge of the Bible. So wouldn't it be better to listen to refined and modernized knowledge than listen to background/archaic knowledge?
Bible knowledge = raw rice
Science = cooked rice
Both raw and cooked rice are important, but one is best enjoyed, one is refined, one is complete and one is more presentable, as evidence of finished work - and that is "cooked rice". And not half cooked/half baked work.

MaxInDHouse:
Stop deluding yourself science starts with knowing what benefit we will get before going into a long process.
Real scientists has a target 🎯 as in what they want to achieve first before thinking about the procedure.

An investigative experiment with a fixed expected result is false. The hypothesis can't just become the conclusion. Put away bias and the lack of genuine inquiry which do not allow for the possibility of unexpected outcomes.

honesttalk21:
An investigative experiment with a fixed expected result is false.

Did your Allah promise you anything?
YES or NO

Science makes practical sense because it is PRACTICAL.

Religious practice is what "isn't" practical.


*Biblical/religious target is to know the truth.
*Science's target is to know the truth.

Both schools of thought have one MISSION/GOAL and that is, to find TRUTH.

Believe it or not, religion is trial and error. That's why there are so many processes, teachings, religions and denominations - because all are trying to get closer to the truth.

This is why I re-interate: the Bible has played it's part finding foundational truth but hasn't closed in yet - but science which is a later and more advanced knowledge, is closer to the truth even though not completely.

MaxInDHouse:
Stop deluding yourself science starts with knowing what benefit we will get before going into a long process.
Real scientists has a target 🎯 as in what they want to achieve first before thinking about the procedure.

If Bible is the source of information then we need to know what is to be gained before thinking of how to practice it otherwise you will never get the benefit because it's in the process of practicing that you need to keep on observing how things works out gradually before you can be certain that you're going to the right direction.

BIBLE!
How did we get here?
Why injustice?
What are we to do?
What to expect in the process?
What are the long life benefits?

These are the most important but the idea of trial and error you call science makes no practical sense.

kayjordan:
Science makes practical sense because it is PRACTICAL.

Religious practice is what "isn't" practical.

You don't understand what you are saying because if someone fails to follow the right procedure it will not work out but if you do things right you will get the perfect result.

I've been trying to show you how to apply the right steps but you keep on asking for abracadabra!🙂

Let me help you understand instead.

You don't walk first as a baby... you crawl first.

You cannot get perfect results at first try without trying out many options.

You have to make mistakes and those mistakes will lead to near perfect results.

Religion is not doing that.

What you are doing is assuming...

Yet your assumptive "right procedure" is not applicable in all religions and systems of the earth - why?

Simply because your assumption of "right procedure" is not agreed on by everybody nor by every religion.

Many don't use or care about your methods or procedures.

But people of all religions are using scientific methods and procedures daily in many ways.

MaxInDHouse:
You don't understand what you are saying because if someone fails to follow the right procedure it will not work out but if you do things right you will get the perfect result.

I've been trying to show you how to apply the right steps but you keep on asking for abracadabra!🙂

kayjordan:
You don't walk first as a baby... you crawl first. You cannot get perfect results at first try without trying out many options. You have to make mistakes and those mistakes will lead to near perfect results.

When you don't know the true religion that is what you will forever continue to experience.
God gives perfect instructions on how to achieve the expected results it's when you don't know what God says that you start using trial and error style!

Now let me link this back to this article.

If God truly gives perfect instructions, why then do people pray and sometimes don't get answers? - "Ask and it shall be given"...

Is that trial and error?

Believers defense would always be "God knows best".

In your True Religion, some of your prayers are probably not answered - and you still use the common line defense.

That's the honest reason why people (regardless if they're JW or whatever), would visit a witch-doctor to get their prayers answered.

Even with voodoo, prayers too are not answered.

The practical and reasonable answer is not church, mosque or shrine... it is hardwork.

MaxInDHouse:
When you don't know the true religion that is what you will forever continue to experience.
God gives perfect instructions on how to achieve the expected results it's when you don't know what God says that you start using trial and error style!

Allah's promise is an absolute certainty unlike and there's no failure here Quran 3:9 however when comparing this with mankind's scientific evaluation, they are not equal categories. Allah's knowledge is perfect and infallible unlike mankind's scientific knowledge that is governed by endeavor that may improve over time through observation and correction.
Note that certainty is in Allah's revelation, while human inquiry whether scientific or philosophical remains as means of seeking understanding that is open to evidence and correction.

MaxInDHouse:
Did your Allah promise you anything?
YES or NO

@kayjordan, hard work sometimes doesn't give expected result.

kayjordan:
Now let me link this back to this article.
If God truly gives perfect instructions, why then do people pray and sometimes don't get answers? - "Ask and it shall be given"...

Jesus was talking to FAITHFUL Jews who knew what to ask for not faithless people who just want to ask anything that comes to their mind.

That's why i said in the beginning that no servant of God asked for riches or material possessions so those listening to Jesus knew such requests has never been asked in times past.

So to understand what Jesus meant try to figure out what servants of this God do ask not just abracadabra as you wish! 🙂

Guy what i asked you requires a YES or NO response.

honesttalk21:
Allah's promise is an absolute certainty unlike and there's no failure here Quran 3:9 however when comparing this with mankind's scientific evaluation, they are not equal categories. Allah's knowledge is perfect and infallible unlike mankind's scientific knowledge that is governed by endeavor that may improve over time through observation and correction.
Note that certainty is in Allah's revelation, while human inquiry whether scientific or philosophical remains as means of seeking understanding that is open to evidence and correction.


@kayjordan, hard work sometimes doesn't give expected result.

And you can't discern? Allah's promise means what?

MaxInDHouse:
Guy what i asked you requires a YES or NO response.

Certainly, hardwork doesn't give expected results all the time, but it does more of the time than prayers and incantation ever does.

The common saying of "Pray but put in the hardwork" - makes significant sense...

Simply, because the idea of "prayer" requires something or an object to feed on.

However, hardwork itself doesn't necessarily need the support of prayer to work.

You can push a broken down vehicle with human effort (work) - but you can't verbally command the car to move in the "name of God"...

So, physical effort is totally independent. The idea of prayer is dependent on something.

honesttalk21:
Allah's promise is an absolute certainty unlike and there's no failure here Quran 3:9 however when comparing this with mankind's scientific evaluation, they are not equal categories. Allah's knowledge is perfect and infallible unlike mankind's scientific knowledge that is governed by endeavor that may improve over time through observation and correction.
Note that certainty is in Allah's revelation, while human inquiry whether scientific or philosophical remains as means of seeking understanding that is open to evidence and correction.


@kayjordan, hard work sometimes doesn't give expected result.

Servants of God ask for so many things - be it selfish or non-selfish things.

But God's word is contrary - He say in the Bible, "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" and "ASK AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU".

But you say, "NO SERVANT OF GOD ASKED FOR RICHES"...

One wonders if different writers of the Bible, had different orientations or heard God's word differently...?

Some preachers would say, "believers can ask for riches" - for example in the Bible, it is written "Thou anoints my head with oil, my cup runneth over"...

This very verse-line would be argued by various pastors and defended as "God is a God of Prosperity"...

That's why I told you earlier, there are various interpretations...

There's no monopoly of truth...

Because @honesttalk21 on this very thread, also believes his religion is Supreme.

So who should we unbelievers, listen to...?

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus was talking to FAITHFUL Jews who knew what to ask for not faithless people who just want to ask anything that comes to their mind.

That's why i said in the beginning that no servant of God asked for riches or material possessions so those listening to Jesus knew such requests has never been asked in times past.

So to understand what Jesus meant try to figure out what servants of this God do ask not just abracadabra as you wish! 🙂

honesttalk21:
And you can't discern? Allah's promise means what?

You haven't answered the question ⁉️🙂

kayjordan:
Servants of God ask for so many things - be it selfish or non-selfish things.

You've started deceiving yourself again.

Quote where a servant of God asked for a selfish thing nah!🥱

kayjordan:
But God's word is contrary - He say in the Bible, "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" and "ASK AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU".

All things that are in line with the will of God.
See what our brothers in Jehovah's Witnesses said about asking our God:


This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. ‭1 John 5:14 NIV‬

See highlighted in red and underlined.

So we know what is in our book stop listening to fake Christians!🙂

The Will of God in your religious understanding, might be non-material things.

And at the same time, the "will of God" could mean, man's comfort in other contexts.

Some doctrines might say, "it's the will of God for a man to be rich and not suffer".

Because the meaning of the will of God is not specifically stated as this or that, Christians are likely to unknowingly assume, "will of God" is everything including money and a private jet.

So there's no Christian Association of Nigeria's stamp to approve JW's sermon or interpretation as overall.

MaxInDHouse:
You've started deceiving yourself again.

Quote where a servant of God asked for a selfish thing nah!🥱


All things that are in line with the will of God.
See what our brothers in Jehovah's Witnesses said about asking our God:


This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. ‭1 John 5:14 NIV‬

See highlighted in red and underlined.

So we know what is in our book stop listening to fake Christians!🙂

kayjordan:
The Will of God in your religious understanding, might be non-material things. And at the same time, the "will of God" could mean, man's comfort in other contexts.

Jesus and his disciples are the people who will teach us the will of God through their words, actions and ministries. So when i said JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are the only true Christians i can beat my chest while saying it before anybody.
Call any of them to come and use the Bible to prove they are following the footsteps of Christ and his apostles.
For your information the way the Bible is written should tell you a lot.
Four disciples wrote about Jesus' life and ministry while the next book Act Of Apostles teaches us how they operate so if any religion claims they believe in the same God as Jesus and his disciples let them prove it by showing how they follow the footsteps of Christ and his Apostles!🙂

kayjordan:
Some doctrines might say, "it's the will of God for a man to be rich and not suffer".

Ask them to give examples of disciples of Christ who became rich and not suffer nah at least if they claim to be worshipers of the same God could they be more favored than those who started the religion in the first century?🙂

Regarding being rich and not suffer this is what apostle Paul said in behalf of himself and all other apostles:

Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman, I am more outstandingly one: I have done more work, been imprisoned more often, suffered countless beatings, and experienced many near-deaths. Five times I received 40 strokes less one from the Jews, three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I experienced shipwreck, a night and a day I have spent in the open sea; in journeys often, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from robbers, in dangers from my own people, in dangers from the nations, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers among false brothers, in labor and toil, in sleepless nights often, in hunger and thirst, frequently without food, in cold and lacking clothing. 2Corinthians 11:23-27

Ọmọ i'm not here to force you to agree with whatever doesn't make you feel comfortable but when talking about true Christianity don't argue with me i challenge any church or any pastor to come and face me on this ONLY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are true Christians!🙂

Good we are about generally in agreement even if that is not necessary but bare in mind where there's a disconnect. Humans are not supposed to replace all effort with prayer. It's viewed by some that your entire life to death not restricted to ritual worship in prayer. Q2:177 Righteousness is not (merely) that you turn your faces to the East and the West (in prayer); but righteousness is that one believes in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Book and the Prophets, and gives wealth, despite love for it, to relatives, and to orphans, the helpless,the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and (spends) in (freeing) slaves and observes the prayers) and pays Zakah-and (the act of) those who fulfill their covenant when they enter into a covenant, and, of course, those who are patient in hardship and suffering and when in battle! Those are the ones who are truthful, and those are the God - fearing.
Essentially righteousness encompasses every part of life and becomes worship when guided by Allah's revelation.

kayjordan:
Certainly, hardwork doesn't give expected results all the time, but it does more of the time than prayers and incantation ever does.

The common saying of "Pray but put in the hardwork" - makes significant sense...

Simply, because the idea of "prayer" requires something or an object to feed on.

However, hardwork itself doesn't necessarily need the support of prayer to work.

You can push a broken down vehicle with human effort (work) - but you can't verbally command the car to move in the "name of God"...

So, physical effort is totally independent. The idea of prayer is dependent on something.

I believe Allah is supreme and existence of different religions is part of his decree. He is best to review all individual actions.

kayjordan:
Servants of God ask for so many things - be it selfish or non-selfish things.

But God's word is contrary - He say in the Bible, "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" and "ASK AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU".

But you say, "NO SERVANT OF GOD ASKED FOR RICHES"...

One wonders if different writers of the Bible, had different orientations or heard God's word differently...?

Some preachers would say, "believers can ask for riches" - for example in the Bible, it is written "Thou anoints my head with oil, my cup runneth over"...

This very verse-line would be argued by various pastors and defended as "God is a God of Prosperity"...

That's why I told you earlier, there are various interpretations...

There's no monopoly of truth...

Because @honesttalk21 on this very thread, also believes his religion is Supreme.

So who should we unbelievers, listen to...?

Quran 3:9 reads Our Lord, You will surely gather mankind for a Day about which there is no doubt. Indeed, Allah does not fail in His promise.

I am not your program and expanded beyond a mere yes or no preempting what could follow.

MaxInDHouse:
You haven't answered the question ⁉️🙂

honesttalk21:
Quran 3:9 reads Our Lord, You will surely gather mankind for a Day about which there is no doubt. Indeed, Allah does not fail in His promise. I am not your program and expanded beyond a mere yes or no preempting what could follow.

So stop quoting me if your own god has nothing to give its worshipers i'm talking about the true God not some Arabian stone deity!

The world is a place of suffering and people look up to God for relief on Earth, even when God's relief for them is in Eternity.

In your informed opinion, true worship is salvation-seeking and not earthly comfort.

Where does one draw the line between "heavenly/eternal prayers" and "earthly prayers"?

Some believers may ask: why pray for protection on earth, when you can pray for salvation or eternal life?

Why be afraid of death and pray for protection on earth, if eternal life is the true destination and reward?

The only clause in the scripture that contradicts the above is this:


"Thy Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven"...


If suffering is imminent on earth, will suffering also be in eternity, be it heaven, hell or everlasting life of planet earth?

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus and his disciples are the people who will teach us the will of God through their words, actions and ministries. So when i said JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are the only true Christians i can beat my chest while saying it before anybody.
Call any of them to come and use the Bible to prove they are following the footsteps of Christ and his apostles.
For your information the way the Bible is written should tell you a lot.
Four disciples wrote about Jesus' life and ministry while the next book Act Of Apostles teaches us how they operate so if any religion claims they believe in the same God as Jesus and his disciples let them prove it by showing how they follow the footsteps of Christ and his Apostles!🙂


Ask them to give examples of disciples of Christ who became rich and not suffer nah at least if they claim to be worshipers of the same God could they be more favored than those who started the religion in the first century?🙂

Regarding being rich and not suffer this is what apostle Paul said in behalf of himself and all other apostles:

Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman, I am more outstandingly one: I have done more work, been imprisoned more often, suffered countless beatings, and experienced many near-deaths. Five times I received 40 strokes less one from the Jews, three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I experienced shipwreck, a night and a day I have spent in the open sea; in journeys often, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from robbers, in dangers from my own people, in dangers from the nations, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers among false brothers, in labor and toil, in sleepless nights often, in hunger and thirst, frequently without food, in cold and lacking clothing. 2Corinthians 11:23-27

Ọmọ i'm not here to force you to agree with whatever doesn't make you feel comfortable but when talking about true Christianity don't argue with me i challenge any church or any pastor to come and face me on this ONLY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are true Christians!🙂

This interpretation you've provided, is similar to Humanism.

In basics, you imply prayer should be reserved for salvation and one's self, should endure the hardship of the earth.

In many faith, hardship on earth is seen as the testing ground of righteousness - if one proves righteousnessness on earth, without praying out of suffering, he may qualify for everlasting life in His Kingdom.

These are strong interpretations of both Quoranic and Biblical messages.

But what evidence has any one shown, that an eternal life exist beyond the books?

Why would anyone wish what is said unto a teacher, "A teacher's reward is in heaven", unto their own life?

How unfair would it be, for believers to suffer on earth, and realise no eternal life nor it bliss exist afterward?

honesttalk21:
Good we are about generally in agreement even if that is not necessary but bare in mind where there's a disconnect. Humans are not supposed to replace all effort with prayer. It's viewed by some that your entire life to death not restricted to ritual worship in prayer. Q2:177 Righteousness is not (merely) that you turn your faces to the East and the West (in prayer); but righteousness is that one believes in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Book and the Prophets, and gives wealth, despite love for it, to relatives, and to orphans, the helpless,the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and (spends) in (freeing) slaves and observes the prayers) and pays Zakah-and (the act of) those who fulfill their covenant when they enter into a covenant, and, of course, those who are patient in hardship and suffering and when in battle! Those are the ones who are truthful, and those are the God - fearing.
Essentially righteousness encompasses every part of life and becomes worship when guided by Allah's revelation.

This is a subjective belief.

Other religious believers think Buddhism, Christianity and Taoism is Supreme...

Who is the True unifier of all religions beyond our human imagination?

I guess that will be a tough question.

honesttalk21:
I believe Allah is supreme and existence of different religions is part of his decree. He is best to review all individual actions.