Gombs:


Are you sure you know what a terminal illness is? Rheumatoid arthritis does not start as terminal but a chronic disease, but as it progresses, it becomes terminal.

HIV is terminal shey? since CE healed a non terminal disease, and 'could not' heal a terminal one Kenyan has ie HIV

Let me enlighten you a bit

One really important thing to remember is that HIV is a chronic illness not a terminal illness. So what does that mean?

Terminal means that the illness will carry on until you die from it. Ie can not be managed and is expected to result in death.
A chronic illness is something that you will have for a long time. Doctors call an illness chronic if it lasts for longer than three months. Some other chronic illnesses are:
Asthma (the most common)
Diabetes
Cerebral palsy
Sickle cell anemia
Cystic fibrosis
Cancer (not all)
AIDS
Epilepsy
Spina bifida
Congenital heart problems

All of these illnesses need medicines to keep the condition under control.

Now, all diseases are incipient death. Hence it matters not whether it's terminal or chronic, what matters is it is not there to smile with you. I want to be clear here, I am no here to drag whether Kenyan is saying facts or not, I've seen folks healed, and are alive today. It is always convenient to blame the school for a pupil who failed an exam, and rarely ever is the pupil blamed for not studying enough.

I think this is my last post on this thread. Best wishes on your campaign.

I'm not sure you understand what "terminal" means... but i am aware you need to lie and bend the rules to support your cult.

dorox:

Care to explain the bold?

Lmao

If you are healed then you would not need medication so to speak.

There are people who believe in miracles like me, then there are those who don't and then there are those who are so desperate for one that they ascribe non-existent miracles to God.

I have witnessed a miracle firsthand when I prayed with a childless couple and they are proud parents. But I can say miracles are much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. Plus, they are easily abused by heartless people to extort money from worshippers

cc; PaulGrundy

dorox:

Care to explain the bold?

vooks:
If you are healed then you would not need medication so to speak.

There are people who believe in miracles like me, then there are those who don't and then there are those who are so desperate for one that they ascribe non-existent miracles to God.

I have witnessed a miracle firsthand when I prayed with a childless couple and they are proud parents. But I can say miracles are much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. Plus, they are easily abused by heartless people to extort money from worshippers

cc; PaulGrundy

By saying miracles ARE rare, you are alluding to the Holy Spirit being rare in the lives of believers. It is the Holy Spirit that does the Miracles through mortal men and the glory is ascribe to God alone not to men and that is why folks like Smith wigglesworth experienced such manifestations of healing gifts in their time.

GOD'S WORD® Translation Acts 10:38
You know that God anointed Jesus from Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. Jesus went everywhere and did good things, such as healing everyone who was under the devil's power. Jesus did these things because God was with him.

My broda,
Miracles and Holy Spirit are different things. Miracles are far much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. This is what tempts them to fake them and claim non-existent miracles

When was the LAST time you performed a miracle?
is this a mark of the rarity of the Spirit in your life?

Bidam:
By saying miracles ARE rare, you are alluding to the Holy Spirit being rare in the lives of believers. It is the Holy Spirit that does the Miracles through mortal men and the glory is ascribe to God alone not to men and that is why folks like Smith wigglesworth experienced such manifestations of healing gifts in their time.

GOD'S WORD® Translation Acts 10:38
You know that God anointed Jesus from Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. Jesus went everywhere and did good things, such as healing everyone who was under the devil's power. Jesus did these things because God was with him.

vooks:
If you are healed then you would not need medication so to speak.

There are people who believe in miracles like me, then there are those who don't and then there are those who are so desperate for one that they ascribe non-existent miracles to God.

I have witnessed a miracle firsthand when I prayed with a childless couple and they are proud parents. But I can say miracles are much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. Plus, they are easily abused by heartless people to extort money from worshippers

cc; PaulGrundy

How are you sure that the couple weren't receiving treatment at the time you prayed for them? Moreover, have you considered the fact that a low fertility of a couple does not rule out the possibility of them to conceive, only that it makes it more difficult?
I would be very wary of calling their conception a miracle without knowing the full facts. I also know a couple that had twins after receiving fertility treatment on the advice of my sister.
The tale they told in church on their thanks giving day was all about how pastor prayed for them and nothing about the wonderful work of modern medicine.

vooks:
My broda,
Miracles and Holy Spirit are different things. Miracles are far much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. This is what tempts them to fake them and claim non-existent miracles

When was the LAST time you performed a miracle?
is this a mark of the rarity of the Spirit in your life?

He cures headaches as a matter of routine and sometimes stomach aches. Does that count?

dorox:


He cures headaches as a matter of routine and sometimes stomach aches. Does that count?

They tried all things they could imagine for 5 years and came out poorer and with nothing to show for it.
In fact the funny bit is the lady used to be my colleague and she asked me for verses to encourage a couple who were seeking a baby.
I thought about it, prayed, dug into the scriptures and shared a few verses and I prayed them for a few days for her friend. I encouraged her to keep on praying the verses.

She went on maternity leave, came back and that's when she disclosed that she was talking about herself only that she felt a bit embarrassed to say so. Five years of trying and then after prayers she conceives? Prayer was the only variable. Conception happened around the time I shared the verses

dorox:


How are you sure that the couple weren't receiving treatment at the time you prayed for them? Moreover, have you considered the fact that a low fertility of a couple does not rule out the possibility of them to conceive, only that it makes it more difficult?
I would be very wary of calling their conception a miracle without knowing the full facts. I also know a couple that had twins after receiving fertility treatment on the advice of my sister.
The tale they told in church on their thanks giving day was all about how pastor prayed for them and nothing about the wonderful work of modern medicine.

vooks:
If you are healed then you would not need medication so to speak.

[There are people who believe in miracles like me, then there are those who don't and then there are those who are so desperate for one that they ascribe non-existent miracles to God.

I have witnessed a miracle firsthand when I prayed with a childless couple and they are proud parents. But I can say miracles are much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. Plus, they are easily abused by heartless people to extort money from worshippers

cc; PaulGrundy

vooks, I hope you won't find it surprising that despite our disagreement on the MacArthur, the bolded is my belief too.

On that thread I was pushing the Cessationists position. But do you know that the Cessationists are also saying the bolded in a different way.

The miracles are rare because it pleases God to give them when he wants. They are not at our beck and call as these charlatans will have us believe.

My condolence to the families of the last of the Oyakhilome "healed" folks. I hope we find more people who will locate this thread and safeguard themselves.

As for the ranting of CE nl ambassador, Gombs, why is Christ Embassy again in the news for all the wrong reasons? Why does Chris have to charge worshippers for cross over night? When will the scale fall off your eyes for you to realize that Chris Oyakhilome is not a man of God but a THIEF and a ROBBER?

It's a New Year... a renewed opportunity to think.

vooks:
My broda,
Miracles and Holy Spirit are different things. Miracles are far much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. This is what tempts them to fake them and claim non-existent miracles

When was the LAST time you performed a miracle?
is this a mark of the rarity of the Spirit in your life?

And this is where folks like you seems to miss the whole point until it is supernatural and spectacular before u term it a miracle abi? show me where the holy spirit is divorced from the miraculous?

Winsomex,
I agree with what you say but those were by no means Cessationists, they was right wing elitist Calvinists who don't take prisoners. Either you are with them or the devil and you know nothing about scriptures

WinsomeX:


vooks, I hope you won't find it surprising that despite our disagreement on the MacArthur, the bolded is my belief too.

On that thread I was pushing the Cessationists position. But do you know that the Cessationists are also saying the bolded in a different way.

The miracles are rare because it pleases God to give them when he wants. They are not at our beck and call as these charlatans will have us believe.

My condolence to the families of the last of the Oyakhilome "healed" folks. I hope we find more people who will locate this thread and safeguard themselves.

As for the ranting of CE nl ambassador, Gombs, why is Christ Embassy again in the news for all the wrong reasons? Why does Chris have to charge worshippers for cross over night? When will the scale fall off your eyes for you to realize that Chris Oyakhilome is not a man of God but a THIEF and a ROBBER?

It's a New Year... a renewed opportunity to think.

Bidam my broda,
You don't see miracle posters of such trivial stuff as headaches. It is always the 'supernatural and spectacular'

It is your job to show me that there is no Holy Spirit in sick and broke believers because the scriptures says He is

Bidam:
And this is where[b] folks like you seems to miss the whole point until it is supernatural and spectacular before u term it a miracle abi?[/b] show me where the holy spirit is divorced from the miraculous?

vooks:
They tried all things they could imagine for 5 years and came out poorer and with nothing to show for it.
In fact the funny bit is the lady used to be my colleague and she asked me for verses to encourage a couple who were seeking a baby.
I thought about it, prayed, dug into the scriptures and shared a few verses and I prayed them for a few days for her friend. I encouraged her to keep on praying the verses.

She went on maternity leave, came back and that's when she disclosed that she was talking about herself only that she felt a bit embarrassed to say so. Five years of trying and then after prayers she conceives? Prayer was the only variable. Conception happened around the time I shared the verses

Maybe after you prayed for them, they calmed down and let nature take its full course, instead of stressing about having a baby. Stress doesn't help with conceiving I've heard.

vooks:
They tried all things they could imagine for 5 years and came out poorer and with nothing to show for it.
In fact the funny bit is the lady used to be my colleague and she asked me for verses to encourage a couple who were seeking a baby.
I thought about it, prayed, dug into the scriptures and shared a few verses and I prayed them for a few days for her friend. I encouraged her to keep on praying the verses.

She went on maternity leave, came back and that's when she disclosed that she was talking about herself only that she felt a bit embarrassed to say so. Five years of trying and then after prayers she conceives? Prayer was the only variable. Conception happened around the time I shared the verses

Do you know for a fact that she was not receiving any treatment when you prayed for her? If not, how are you sure that it was your prayer that worked? Afterall it is common knowledge that for some women it can take multiple sessions before they can conceive.

Bro,
This is not a lab specimen but a friend. She tells me they had given up and I take her word for it. She told me this over 12 months after the act. The couple had over 5 years of 'multiple sessions' with nothing to show for it. You gotta try harder at skepticism. Study James Randi

dorox:

Do you know for a fact that she was not receiving any treatment when you prayed for her? If not, how are you sure that it was your prayer that worked? Afterall it is common knowledge that for some women it can take multiple sessions before they can conceive.

Very true.
May be you were a reproductive health specialist before you reincarnated into an amateur comedian

nnenneigbo:

Maybe after you prayed for them, they calmed down and let nature take its full course, instead of stressing about having a baby. Stress doesn't help with conceiving I've heard.

vooks:
If you are healed then you would not need medication so to speak.

There are people who believe in miracles like me, then there are those who don't and then there are those who are so desperate for one that they ascribe non-existent miracles to God.

I have witnessed a miracle firsthand when I prayed with a childless couple and they are proud parents. But I can say miracles are much rare than Pentecostals would have us believe. Plus, they are easily abused by heartless people to extort money from worshippers

cc; PaulGrundy

I must say totally agree with all you said at this post except for the bolded. If you imply that real miracles are very rare, then jesus wouldn't have told his disciples that they would do greater works than him. There wouldn't have been any gifts of healing given to another as stated in the book of corithians. Since it was so rare, God wouldn't have given anyone the gift, he would have just done his thing, and then go away as he did through the prophets of old.

vooks:
Bro,
This is not a lab specimen but a friend. She tells me they had given up and I take her word for it. She told me this over 12 months after the act. The couple had over 5 years of 'multiple sessions' with nothing to show for it. You gotta try harder at skepticism. Study James Randi

Hey vooks, I mean no harm with all my doubts and questions, I was only trying to demonstrate that in the instance you gave it will be quite difficult to prove even to yourself that your prayer hard anything to do with your friends pregnancy.
People say that they have given up many times only to save enough money for one last try. So until you ask her categorically if she was still receiving treatment when she got pregnant I won't accept her expression of a moment of despair to mean so.
You say it was your prayer, why can it not be the prayer and fasting she must have been doing all those years?
Surely, a desperate person like her would ask her pastor and other close friends to pray for her as well, could it have been their prayers and not yours?
I still believe that behind your miracle is someone wearing a white coat.

Am not taking credit for this miracle. I prayed, shared with her verses, and they prayed.
The people in white coats had five years with her and nothing came out of it

She says they had given up and were just praying while under immense pressure from relatives. dorox says, 'BS you have not given up, you are liars, I don't believe you'. Is this skepticism or plain mockery? At this rate you may as well ask me to prove that this lady exists

dorox:


Hey vooks, I mean no harm with all my doubts and questions, I was only trying to demonstrate that in the instance you gave it will be quite difficult to prove even to yourself that your prayer hard anything to do with your friends pregnancy.
People say that they have given up many times only to save enough money for one last try. So until you ask her categorically if she was still receiving treatment when she got pregnant I won't accept her expression of a moment of despair to mean so.
You say it was your prayer, why can it not be the prayer and fasting she must have been doing all those years?
Surely, a desperate person like her would ask her pastor and other close friends to pray for her as well, could it have been their prayers and not yours?
I still believe that behind your miracle is someone wearing a white coat.

PaulGrundy,
In my opinion, the only reason you have hype around the miraculous is because genuine miracles are rare,so there is great temptation to go beyond what God is doing.

Let's say God heals a guy or two in a meeting. That's not good enough, you want everyone to walk home with a miracle, you start anointing them, pushing them,declaring miracles where none exist,demanding for miracles and so forth

paulGrundy:


I must say totally agree with all you said at this post except for the bolded. If you imply that real miracles are very rare, then jesus wouldn't have told his disciples that they would do greater works than him. There wouldn't have been any gifts of healing given to another as stated in the book of corithians. Since it was so rare, God wouldn't have given anyone the gift, he would have just done his thing, and then go away as he did through the prophets of old.

vooks:
PaulGrundy,
In my opinion, the only reason you have hype around the miraculous is because genuine miracles are rare,so there is great temptation to go beyond what God is doing.

Let's say God heals a guy or two in a meeting. That's not good enough, you want everyone to walk home with a miracle, you start anointing them, pushing them,declaring miracles where none exist,demanding for miracles and so forth

You are partailly right, I think that's one area where the WOF folks miss it! God chooses who he wants to heal and when he wants to heal. Healing is not solely based on faith only, if it were, as WOF'ers would have us believe, then everybody who came to them to seek healing, would have been healed. But however I think the WOF movement have revealed to the charismatic movement the power of faith and positive confession.

vooks:
Am not taking credit for this miracle. I prayed, shared with her verses, and they prayed.
The people in white coats had five years with her and nothing came out of it

She says they had given up and were just praying while under immense pressure from relatives. dorox says, 'BS you have not given up, you are liars, I don't believe you'. Is this skepticism or plain mockery? At this rate you may as well ask me to prove that this lady exists

Please don't make it about yourself, I have never questioned if you believe your account of the story to be true, it is the lady's account I question.
Too many times i have been told some fantastic tales by people who claimed to have experienced it or seen it first hand only for their story to change from the spectacular to the not so spectacular after just a few questions.
Once again my friend, I did not and will never accuse you of making the story up, I am only saying that people when faced with problems of that nature become very emotional which makes them to over emphasize certain aspect of their story while deemphasizing other aspects of the same story.
So unless you took your time to sift through the noise in her story before accepting it as fact, I would remain skeptical about the absolute truthfulness of her story.

my broda,
I find zero basis for questioning her account. You are straining it. What noise are you hearing from her narrative?

There is good old reasonable skepticism and then there is doubt for the sake of doubt. You my friend are in the latter not too far behind you is Frosbel

dorox:


Please don't make it about yourself, I have never questioned if you believe your account of the story to be true, it is the lady's account I question.
Too many times i have been told some fantastic tales by people who claimed to have experienced it or seen it first hand only for their story to change from the spectacular to the not so spectacular after just a few questions.
Once again my friend, I did not and will never accuse you of making the story up, I am only saying that people when faced with problems of that nature become very emotional which makes them to over emphasize certain aspect of their story while deemphasizing other aspects of the same story.
So unless you took your time to sift through the noise in her story before accepting it as fact, I would remain skeptical about the absolute truthfulness of her story.

dorox:


Please don't make it about yourself, I have never questioned if you believe your account of the story to be true, it is the lady's account I question.
Too many times i have been told some fantastic tales by people who claimed to have experienced it or seen it first hand only for their story to change from the spectacular to the not so spectacular after just a few questions.
Once again my friend, I did not and will never accuse you of making the story up, I am only saying that people when faced with problems of that nature become very emotional which makes them to over emphasize certain aspect of their story while deemphasizing other aspects of the same story.
So unless you took your time to sift through the noise in her story before accepting it as fact, I would remain skeptical about the absolute truthfulness of her story.

This!!

Afterall In the beginning, the lady never told him, she was the childless one but that it was a friend. Childless couples, usually never give up too so was probably still receiving treatment anyway.

Books is taking this way personally. People tell white lies and I find especially when talking about miracles. See jabogje's hiv healing testimony for example.

vooks:

Very true.
May be you were a reproductive health specialist before you reincarnated into an amateur comedian

Maybe it was you it happened to. The way you're vouching for this so called colleague that now seems a close friend.

They don't I agree. Some take the easier route; adoption. This one, they was praying and searching for solutions for five years.
There is everything personal because the lady is not some faceless person like you but a close friend and a then colleague.

I was not doing Sirjohn sleuthing, I never visited her gyaena nor obtained receipts and other evidence of her past medication. I just went to the word of God and sought to encourage her 'friend' who was really waiting on God for fruit of her womb. I gathered the verses prayerfully, shared with her and forgot about it. Around 7 months later she proceeds on Maternity leave and nothing registered on my mind. She delivers and finishes her leave. After resuming work she tells me that they were the ones looking for a child for 5 years and she concieved around the same time I shared with her the verses. So what happened I ask. They were low on cash following successive 'solutions' none of which was working. I say, glory be to God. You say, 'BS'

nnenneigbo:


This!!

Afterall In the beginning, the lady never told him, she was the childless one but that it was a friend. Childless couples, usually never give up too so was probably still receiving treatment anyway.

Books is taking this way personally. People tell white lies and I find especially when talking about miracles. See jabogje's hiv healing testimony for example.

No sir, wasn't me!

I have stated my position; Miracles are still with us but they are far much rare than purported
I have shared one
Here is something I have observed; seldom do skeptics witness miracles. I mean the rabid antitheist guy who demands a one-on-one Damascus experience is more likely to perish in their stubbornness

Miracles do not provoke faith in the haughty and the wicked, they increase their hardness just like Pharaoh. But for believers, they increase your faith.

There is a difference between seeking miracles so that you may believe and seeking them because you are a believer. Where do you fall?

nnenneigbo:


Maybe it was you it happened to. The way you're vouching for this so called colleague that now seems a close friend.

FOLLOWING

vooks:
No sir, wasn't me!

I have stated my position; Miracles are still with us but they are far much rare than purported
I have shared one
Here is something I have observed; seldom do skeptics witness miracles. I mean the rabid antitheist guy who demands a one-on-one Damascus experience is more likely to perish in their stubbornness

Miracles do not provoke faith in the haughty and the wicked, they increase their hardness just like Pharaoh. But for believers, they increase your faith.

There is a difference between seeking miracles so that you may believe and seeking them because you are a believer. Where do you fall?

Very! Very correct!

Okay guys let me drop a few of my opinions here

Let me start by stating again like I have done before that I believe in miracles. However, like @vooks and several other people have mentioned, I believe miracles are not as frequently occurring as some people would have us believe. It's not because of our unbelief or inefficiencies but simply because it is Almighty Gods will at this time.
There are documented supernatural and miraculous occurrences across the world including medical miracles, and a number of them are not even linked to Christianity nor were some of the recipients true believers.
Like vooks mentioned, its important we accept the reality on ground otherwise we will be snared into false hope and false belief system which eventually leads to the kinds of false testimonies we see today in the pentecostal circles.

The story of Jeff here on Nairaland is an example of how deep this syndrome has eaten into the church. I still find it hard to understand why people fake testimonies and lay claim to miraculous healings that never took place. In the Joagbaje-Jeff scenerio, what could possibly have happened? Why would Jeff openly lie about being cured of HIV? was it all planned? This bit we may never be able to answer like many other such claims.

Sadly, Jeffs case is not the only case I have unraveled in recent times. I remember a couple just like in vooks' story who were married without children for over five years. The couple was then introduced to a woman in PortHarcourt who was said to be an expert in fertility. She promised to help them get children through trado-medical treatment, she even bragged that she could make the woman conceive twins. They were asked to pay I think about 600k for this treatment, a male child went for a higher amount.

They paid and then the woman was given a concoction of herbal drugs and was given a time to meet with her husband. What she didn't know was that the drugs contained substances that mimic pregnancy symptoms including nausea, weight gain, enlarged bosoms, morning sickness and even swollen tommy (surprise right?). She was told that she could only visit the center for ante natal and that pregnancy tests may show negative but that she shouldn't worry about that. To cut the story short, she was also told that her delivery would be done in their centre and only by that woman. Nine months later, this woman was already carrying a bouncing baby girl, some months later, she was dedicating her baby in one of the pentecostal churches in Lagos, but never mentioned she had gone to meet this woman in PH. If you watch Channels news regularly, you would have seen the fake fertility doctor a couple of months back cos she has been arrested.

But here's a shocking twist to true story, this woman was never pregnant, the babies are not hers and she and her husband are unaware till date. she was given a sedative drug during the fake delivery during which she was even cut so she would bleed. I know some people reading this can already relate to it. But in the eyes of the church members and even the pastor, ANOTHER MIRACLE HAD HAPPENED

vooks:
They don't I agree. Some take the easier route; adoption. This one, they was praying and searching for solutions for five years.
There is everything personal because the lady is not some faceless person like you but a close friend and a then colleague.

I was not doing Sirjohn sleuthing, I never visited her gyaena nor obtained receipts and other evidence of her past medication. I just went to the word of God and sought to encourage her 'friend' who was really waiting on God for fruit of her womb. I gathered the verses prayerfully, shared with her and forgot about it. Around 7 months later she proceeds on Maternity leave and nothing registered on my mind. She delivers and finishes her leave. After resuming work she tells me that they were the ones looking for a child for 5 years and she concieved around the same time I shared with her the verses. So what happened I ask. They were low on cash following successive 'solutions' none of which was working. I say, glory be to God. You say, 'BS'

So this your friend, conceived, went on maternity and when you saw her(looks like you didn't even recognise her), she had to remind you of the fact you prayed for her etc etc hmmm!