johnydon22:


Is anything else needs saying

Lol.
"We know that God exists in our minds, and MAY EXIST elsewhere in reality" .

This is monumental.

And the he adds the absurdity that we can never prove that "he may not exist elsewhere in reality".
What a baloney.

It reminds when Ihedinobi passionately argued that since we cannot prove that snakes could not have had vocal abilities 6,000 yes ago, we could not, therefore, prove that a particular snake did not speak to Adam and Eve.
Senseless kindergarten logic.

johnydon22:


Is anything else needs saying

Just bold it ALL. Picking and choosing is unworthy and illustrates a lack of open mindedness in that you cannot support your argument properly.

KoloOyinbo:


Atheists lack Faith in MY position but HAVE Faith in theirs. _ A little more logical though will eliminate these basic errors.

Ok so as you are atheistic towards The God thor, do you also need faith to disbelieve thor?

KoloOyinbo:


Just bold it ALL. Picking and choosing is unworthy and illustrates a lack of open mindedness in that you cannot support your argument properly.

actually you killed yourself by that... You acknowledged god exists in your mind and yet turns out to ask me to believe it may exist in real life.

ok a black flying pink yellow unicorn exists in my mind. . . would you disbelieve the possibility of its existence?

[quote author=plaetton post=33348624][/quote]

So you don't understand agnosticism either? Their position is clear rational and simple (wish I was one).

They say there is insufficient data to allow a decision on this matter.

It is not possible to prove God exists - nor that he does not.

Philosophers have know this for centuries and generally accepted this.

Your bland and unsupported assertions are called begging the question and are thus invalid.

johnydon22:


actually you killed yourself by that... You acknowledged god exists in your mind and yet turns out to ask me to believe it may exist in real life.

ok a black flying pink yellow unicorn exists in my mind. . . would you disbelieve the possibility of its existence?

Your flying pink unicorn is testable and thus a decision CAN be made on existence or otherwise.

God is not thus no decision can be made. It amazes me that this simple concept is beyond some people on this forum.

KoloOyinbo:


So you don't understand agnosticism either? Their position is clear rational and simple (wish I was one).

They say there is insufficient data to allow a decision on this matter.

It is not possible to prove God exists - nor that he does not.

Philosophers have know this for centuries and generally accepted this.

Your bland and unsupported assertions are called begging the question and are thus invalid.

You have to understand that "anything that is not prove able is also cannot be disproved cus their is nothing to disprove.. "

can you disprove the existence of thor? No you cant and that is it..

johnydon22:


Ok so as you are atheistic towards The God thor, do you also need faith to disbelieve thor?

I believe in a God. (Lets NOT introduce monotheistic and Polytheistic) Now if some believe in Allah, Some Christ, Some Thor then they all believe in GOD and are merely arguing about the name/form which is another discussion.

KoloOyinbo:


Your flying pink unicorn is testable and thus a decision CAN be made on existence or otherwise.

God is not thus no decision can be made. It amazes me that this simple concept is beyond some people on this forum.

lmao now i will like you to demonstrate how the concept of a flying unicorn can be tested... am waiting..

johnydon22:


You have to understand that "anything that is not prove able is also cannot be disproved cus their is nothing to disprove.. "

can you disprove the existence of thor? No you cant and that is it..

Any thing that is not provable may be because it is false or that it is inherent that it cannot be proved!

That is where your error lies and why your logic has been rejected by philosophers over the millennia.

KoloOyinbo:


I believe in a God. (Lets NOT introduce monotheistic and Polytheistic) Now if some believe in Allah, Some Christ, Some Thor then they all believe in GOD and are merely arguing about the name/form which is another discussion.

Oh No you dont get it do you, you like hiding... you believe in a god which entirely is an entirely different god concept from others.. you are atheistic towards 4,999 others and am sure you dont need faith for this...

an atheist just disbelieves 1 more God than you....

johnydon22:


lmao now i will like you to demonstrate how the concept of a flying unicorn can be tested... am waiting..

God exists beyond the universe if he exists. Thus cannot be proven either way.

You Flying pink unicorn exists on earth and thus CAN be proven or disproven. Perhaps elsewhere in the Universe they do exist - insufficient data so I will be an agnostic on that one. Is that simple enough?

johnydon22:


Oh No you dont get it do you, you like hiding... you believe in a god which entirely is an entirely different god concept from others.. you are atheistic towards 4,999 others and am sure you dont need faith for this...

an atheist just disbelieves 1 more God than you....

You need to elaborate further, we are simply talking about the concept of a Deity. Concepts of what that God is vary from religion to religion and Theist to Theist.

KoloOyinbo:


Any thing that is not provable may be because it is false or that it is inherent that it cannot be proved!

That is where your error lies and why your logic has been rejected by philosophers over the millennia.

lmao, you still cannot demonstrate it can u?

KoloOyinbo:


God exists beyond the universe if he exists. Thus cannot be proven either way.

You Flying pink unicorn exists on earth and thus CAN be proven or disproven. Perhaps elsewhere in the Universe they do exist - insufficient data so I will be an agnostic on that one. Is that simple enough?

No my flying pink unicorn exists beyong the universe and it created the universe...

DIsprove it let me see..

KoloOyinbo:


So you don't understand agnosticism either? Their position is clear rational and simple (wish I was one).

They say there is insufficient data to allow a decision on this matter.

It is not possible to prove God exists - nor that he does not.

Philosophers have know this for centuries and generally accepted this.

Your bland and unsupported assertions are called begging the question and are thus invalid.

Of course, saying "I don't know" to any question is logical, safe and always acceptable.

But "I don't know" is not answer. Pls try and understand this.

For example,
I don't know anything about Quarks. It is much too complex for me to comprehend.
How does that add to the debate about the existence or nonexistence of Quarks?
Zero.

It would silly to suggest that my position is superior to those who chose to actually research and debate the existence or nonexistence of Quarks.

johnydon22:


lmao, you still cannot demonstrate it can u?

WOW! Where have you been since the start of the thread! The thread itself implies that both stances are supported only though Faith alone?

Really much of this could be avoided if some preparatory reading is done and logical thought applied.

plaetton:

Of course, saying "I don't know" to any question is logical, safe and always acceptable.

But "I don't know" is not answer. Pls try and understand this.

For example,
I don't know anything about Quarks. It is much too complex for me to comprehend.
How does that add to the debate about the existence or nonexistence of Quarks?
Zero.

It would silly to suggest that my position is superior to those who chose to actually research and debate the existence or nonexistence of Quarks.

If faced with insufficient data you have no other choice!

YOU may not understand quarks but others do and can come up with tests.

God exists outside the physical universe if he exists. Thus there can never be a test or provable evidence.

Is this too difficult a concept?

KoloOyinbo:


You need to elaborate further, we are simply talking about the concept of a Deity. Concepts of what that God is vary from religion to religion and Theist to Theist.

and you need to have a grasp of the atheist stance..

Agnostic atheist says "I disbelive every god concept but do not plainly say none exists.

a gnostic atheists (strong) says: i disbelieve every god concept and am sure none exists..

an agnostic theists says; i believe a god exists but i cannot say i know one exists.

A gnostic theists say; i believe a god exists and am sure a god exists..

KoloOyinbo:


WOW! Where have you been since the start of the thread! The thread itself implies that both stances are supported only though Faith alone?

Really much of this could be avoided if some preparatory reading is done and logical thought applied.

and am telling you that disbelief doesnt entail faith in the negative.. you need to understand that..

johnydon22:


and you need to have a grasp of the atheist stance..

Agnostic atheist says "I disbelive every god concept but do not plainly say none exists.

a gnostic atheists (strong) says: i disbelieve every god concept and am sure none exists..

an agnostic theists says; i believe a god exists but i cannot say i know one exists.

A gnostic theists say; i believe a god exists and am sure a god exists..

Ah, you are going back to something similar to Dawkins and his arbitrary 1 to 7 scale.

Much more generally accepted is:

Theist - I believe there is a God

Atheist - I believe there is no God

Agnostic - I cannot decide (do not know).

The first two positions require FAITH the last does not.

KoloOyinbo:


You need to elaborate further, we are simply talking about the concept of a Deity. Concepts of what that God is vary from religion to religion and Theist to Theist.

Funny that you continue to use the word " Concept" to describe god.
Isn't that what really is?
A concept, or a set of concepts that evolve with time and cultures?
An embodiment of ideals, evolving ideals?
That's why the god of Israel hates and kills Israel's enemies.
Same reason that the modern god is loving , forgiving and accepting all.
Don't you get it?
Isn't that so evident?

You seem to be arguing against your self.

johnydon22:


and am telling you that disbelief doesnt entail faith in the negative.. you need to understand that..

Then you are an agnostic - I have NO issue with that. If you have Faith in the negative then you are an Atheist. This is my point and why the thread was suggested in the first place.

plaetton:


Funny that you continue to use the word " Concept" to describe god.
Isn't that what really is?
A concept, or a set of concepts that evolve with time and cultures?
An embodiment of ideals, evolving ideals?
That's why the god of Israel hates and kills Israel's enemies.
Same reason that the modern god is loving , forgiving and accepting all.
Don't you get it?
Isn't that so evident?

You seem to be arguing against your self.

Concept/idea - God/No God/Universe etc all concepts - Justice, love, hate all concepts. Buildings begin as a concept and also vary with time/culture. All of the above is irrelevant to the thread!

KoloOyinbo:


If faced with insufficient data you have no other choice!

YOU may not understand quarks but others do and can come up with tests.

God exists outside the physical universe if he exists. Thus there can never be a test or provable evidence.

Is this too difficult a concept?

Actually the bolded says it all about atheism..

since you asserts he exists outiside the physical universe, their is no way you could just come up with that unless you just assumed it up.

since it is not testable or provable how then did you discern its existence in the first place...

thats why we say, We don't believe you..

KoloOyinbo:


Then you are an agnostic - I have NO issue with that. If you have Faith in the negative then you are an Atheist. This is my point and why the thread was suggested in the first place.

Atheism means disbelief in god... and i lack belief in a god this doesnt automatically mean someone have faith in the negative..

it means, i dont believe it until proven.. as simple as that..

KoloOyinbo:


Concept/idea - God/No God/Universe etc all concepts - Justice, love, hate all concepts. Buildings begin as a concept and also vary with time/culture. All of the above is irrelevant to the thread!

Good you agree concept means idea... what else are we arguing over here?

since god falls on the dimension of a concept (idea) i dont see anymore need to argue.. because all those concepts are there but when you tell me something you agree to be a concept is an entity and created the universe, thats the part i disbelieve..

KoloOyinbo:


If faced with insufficient data you have no other choice!

YOU may not understand quarks but others do and can come up with tests.

God exists outside the physical universe if he exists. Thus there can never be a test or provable evidence.

Is this too difficult a concept?

With all due respect, it's quite laughable, not to mention illogical.

Ok ,let's take this slowly and see if it will sink in. I know you are a smart guy.

1. Our universe is the only reality that we know to exist to us. Right?
That there are other universes is just a speculative notion, not proven and certainly not taken into account in our lives. Right?

2. God is outside the universe( according to you).

3. Therefore, god does not exist in our universe, in our reality, the only one we know and deal with.
Are you following?

Now if god is beyond our universe, then god occupies the same abstract and speculative realm as the multiverse, the underverse, even The Pink Unicorn universe.

I dare you to ask me to prove that the Pink Unicorn universe does not exist.

Pls stop and think, and then please the difference between god and the Pink Unicorn universe.

KoloOyinbo:


Concept/idea - God/No God/Universe etc all concepts - Justice, love, hate all concepts. Buildings begin as a concept and also vary with time/culture. All of the above is irrelevant to the thread!

Interesting.
You should spend some time to read your own posts.
Justice, love, hate, building plans, etc, all have one thing in common: They are all states of mind, mental frameworks from which action or behavior are molded.
The key words here are "mind"and "mental framework".
Do you see the connection between mind, mental framework, and god?

If you don't get it here, then I give up.

plaetton:

Interesting.
You should spend some time to read your own posts.
Justice, love, hate, building plans, etc, all have one thing in common: They are all states of mind, mental frameworks from which action or behavior are molded.
The key words here are "mind"and "mental framework".
Do you see the connection between mind, mental framework, and god?

If you don't get it here, then I give up.

Of course I see the connection (irrelevant though it is) and it is not connected to whether these things exist in actuality or not!

If you cant see that then you cant give up because you haven't started.

plaetton:


With all due respect, it's quite laughable, not to mention illogical.

Ok ,let's take this slowly and see if it will sink in. I know you are a smart guy.

1. Our universe is the only reality that we know to exist to us. Right?
That there are other universes is just a speculative notion, not proven and certainly not taken into account in our lives. Right?

2. God is outside the universe( according to you).

3. Therefore, god does not exist in our universe, in our reality, the only one we know and deal with.
Are you following?

Now if god is beyond our universe, then god occupies the same abstract and speculative realm as the multiverse, the underverse, even The Pink Unicorn universe.

I dare you to ask me to prove that the Pink Unicorn universe does not exist.

Pls stop and think, and then please the difference between god and the Pink Unicorn universe.

Ah your flaw is in number 3! Think about it for a while. Consider if we think BEYOND our Universe - where did it come from, God, etc etc.

There are other aspects as well. Remember flawed logic like this can lead to flawed conclusions.

IF it was all as you say why have your arguments been found wanting for thousands of years? I really do recommend some basic read or formal train before you attempt these assertions.

johnydon22:


Good you agree concept means idea... what else are we arguing over here?

since god falls on the dimension of a concept (idea) i dont see anymore need to argue.. because all those concepts are there but when you tell me something you agree to be a concept is an entity and created the universe, thats the part i disbelieve..

And you disbelieve it on faith alone!

MY point exactly