Are we saved by faith or by water baptism?

What passages of scripture do you have in mind?

OLAADEGBU:
Are we saved by faith or by water baptism?

Who has a saving faith?
We're ONLY saved by GRACE...

Scholar8200:


What passages of scripture do you have in mind?

Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21

Saved by faith:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1)

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Saved by baptism:

"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

"And now why do you tarry? Arise, and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

"The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now saves us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

AdeniyiA:


Who has a saving grace?
We're ONLY saved by GRACE...

That's correct sir. I agree that we are only saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.

OLAADEGBU:


Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21

Saved by baptism:

"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The key word here is repentance.A person who genuinely repents,trusting in Christ, but was not chanced to be baptised in water is saved; another who does not repent, holding on to sin and its guilt but is baptised, comes out the same.

"And now why do you tarry? Arise, and be baptised, and [color=#000099]wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord[/color]" (Acts 22:16).

This was said to a Paul who had already met Christ and surrendered his life, after three days of settling things with God in the closet. He was already saved. The highlighted was not dependent on the baptism but was used because of the faith and understanding that should normally precede water baptism.

"The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now saves us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

If you remove the statement in parenthesis, this is what you will get:
The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This baptism is not water baptism. It refers to the activity of the Holy Spirit by which we become saved and a member of the Body of Christ. see 1 Corinth 12:13
13 For by [[d]means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

Scholar8200:
The key word here is repentance.A person who genuinely repents,trusting in Christ, but was not chanced to be baptised in water is saved; another who does not repent, holding on to sin and its guilt but is baptised, comes out the same.
This was said to a Paul who had already met Christ and surrendered his life, after three days of settling things with God in the closet. He was already saved. The highlighted was not dependent on the baptism but was used because of the faith and understanding that should normally precede water baptism.
If you remove the statement in parenthesis, this is what you will get:
The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This baptism is not water baptism. It refers to the activity of the Holy Spirit by which we become saved and a member of the Body of Christ. see 1 Corinth 12:13
13 For by [[d]means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

In Acts 2:38 and 22:16, where they not talking of water baptism?

italo:


In Acts 2:38 and 22:16, where they not talking of water baptism?

Of course they were talking of water baptism.
My reply was that Acts 22:16 was not saying water baptism washes away sins! If you read the account being narrated in Acts 9,you will realize that the person Paul was quoting already called him a brother(he was saved by then).

Revelations 1:5 tells us what does the washing:

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Scholar8200:
Of course they were talking of water baptism.
My reply was that Acts 22:16 was not saying water baptism washes away sins! If you read the account being narrated in Acts 9,you will realize that the person Paul was quoting already called him a brother(he was saved by then).

Revelations 1:5 tells us what does the washing:

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

Who is wrong between you and the Holy Spirit who inspired Acts22:16 and 2:38?

Don't you ever feel remorse for openly contradicting and challenging the Holy Spirit?

You are saved by non of them.


No single reality in faith and Baptism. Only what you and others like you witness and observe are fake and false pretence that all those things do have impact on your wellbeing and daily dealings. But whenever you have serious health problems or confusing situations, you don't ever resort to faith and that you were baptised but run for non-faith base remedies.

italo:


Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

Who is wrong between you and the Holy Spirit who inspired Acts22:16 and 2:38?

The yielding of oneself to water baptism is an act of faith, a testimony of surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus Christ after trusting Him as Saviour. The faith that precedes baptism (faith that is in the redemption in His blood) is the intent here.

Romans 10:10
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Baptism is done after believing and not before.

Sans this faith and its evidence, water baptism (like the Lord's supper) will be done to the unworthy.

italo:


Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

Who is wrong between you and the Holy Spirit who inspired Acts22:16 and 2:38?

Did you notice this:
Revelations 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

and have ye never read:
Revelations 7:14
... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Scholar8200:


The yielding of oneself to water baptism is an act of faith, a testimony of surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus Christ after trusting Him as Saviour. The faith that precedes baptism (faith that is in the redemption in His blood) is the intent here.

Romans 10:10
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Baptism is done after believing and not before.

Sans this faith and its evidence, water baptism (like the Lord's supper) will be done to the unworthy.










Did you notice this:
Revelations 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

and have ye never read:
Revelations 7:14
... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I believe all the verses you quoted. None of them says that baptism does not remit sins.

Do you believe Acts2:38 and 22:16 when they say Baptism remits sins?

Or do you think the Holy Spirit was mistaken?

italo:


I believe all the verses you quoted. None of them says that baptism does not remit sins.

Do you believe Acts2:38 and 22:16 when they say Baptism remits sins?

Or do you think the Holy Spirit was mistaken?

Who then inspired the ones quoted which you said you also believed? What else do they say?But they sure say we are saved by our faith in the redemption in Christ's blood.

Do you believe that the Lord's supper can be taken unworthily?

In the Bible, none was baptised before they truly believed! And Romans 10:10 tells us salvation is by faith.

I am not saying a person should not be baptised but not before he genuinely repents and surrenders to Christ and his faith is attested to by a newness of life.

Scholar8200:
Who then inspired the ones quoted which you said you also believed? What else do they say?But they sure say we are saved by our faith in the redemption in Christ's blood.

Do you believe that the Lord's supper can be taken unworthily?

In the Bible, none was baptised before they truly believed! And Romans 10:10 tells us salvation is by faith.

I am not saying a person should not be baptised but not before he genuinely repents and surrenders to Christ and his faith is attested to by a newness of life.

@bolded,where do we find this teaching in early christianity. I'm assuming you're excluding baptism for babies and children.

btoks:
[/b]
@bolded,where do we find this teaching in early christianity. I'm assuming you're excluding baptism for babies and children.

Pls vouchsafe me Bible references as regards the highlighted!

Let's start here

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(He that does not believe need not be baptized; a baby/ toddler cannot profess saving faith)

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Only those who received the Gospel meaning they heard, were pricked in their hearts as regards their need for salvation, repented and were baptised. See Acts 2:36,37. Only a child who has reached the age of accountability/and those older can do all these! )

Acts 8:36-38

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

(The baptism could only commence after the man had professed saving faith by surrendering to Jesus; Rom 10:9 tells us it is at that time salvation occurs) Note that believing is not mental assent. Rom 10:10 reveals true believing as a heart procedure.

Acts 9:17,18
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Paul had become a member of the family of God hence the title brother. If you read Acts 9:15, The Lord made it clear that he was a chosen vessel meaning old things had passed away.

Acts 16:30-34
30 and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Notice the reply and notice the cause of the joy. Believing that brought salvation always preceded baptism in water. They had to be able to genuinely believe before baptism was brought up. The call to believe was preceded by a deep sense of need. (Believing is more than a mental assent or intellectual acquiescence). It is a heart issue and the heart controls the man.

Acts 20:21
testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Shows the key ingredients both of which cannot be effectively communicated to babies or amoral toddlers

Kei144:
[size=12pt]Mt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Mt. 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Baptisms are gates or initiations. Some people think that faith means accepting a principle or doctrine in your mind.

Ja. 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Ro. 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death?
Ro. 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

You believe in your mind that Jesus saved you by dying on the cross for you. You even confess it with your mouth. You sing hymns and praises about it. So, you are saved. Isn't it? But you cannot perform a rite of passage from the realm of the old man (Adam) to the realm of the new man (Jesus Christ). You came into the world as a branch of the old tree (Mt. 13:32). While you are still part of the old tree, you are told to perform the rite of passage (baptism) so that you disconnect from the old tree and be grafted into the new tree (Jn. 15:5), you refuse and begin to claim that in your mind you already belong in the new tree and you call it faith. Well, even though you have faith, without performing the rite of passage, your faith is dead. It is through water baptism that a person dies to (or disconnects from) the old man and is raised up in the new man.

[

As regards the highlighted, the Truth is stated below:
Romans 8:13
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
It is the Spirit that mortifies the old man and this is possible by our faith in this Truth:
Romans 6:3-6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The baptism being referred to is that which water baptism seeks to testify of: a spiritual process that follows true repentance and faith in Christ:

1 Corinth 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Also see
Colossians 2:12

Galatians 3:27

italo:




Don't you ever feel remorse for openly contradicting and challenging the Holy Spirit?

Serious allegation! So you mean i contradict the Holy Spirit by quoting from the same scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit? I guess what I am contradicting is your view. Or you may like to show me my personal words (not Bible quotes) that contradict that which the Spirit inspired.

OLAADEGBU:
Are we saved by faith or by water baptism?

my thoughts>>
we are saved by both faith and baptism (not water baptism) as one
dem all join

When you put together the two writers (Book of Mark and Mathew)who tried to capture Jesus closing statement
it goes like this:

Go into the world and preach the good news. when someone believes, ensure that they are baptised (immersive knowledge and oneness) into the Father, Son and Spirit.
If this is done, they shall be saved through all times just as you have been saved through all times. If they do not believe, well they will remain in the condemnation that is bequeathed by the first birth.
These are some of the characteristics of what save means. The believe and baptism in the three will ensure that that they speak with new tongues and rebuke the sting of death and demons.

OLAADEGBU:
Are we saved by faith or by water baptism?

You'll be surprised of seeing many,
without physical or literal water baptism,
being found in the Kingdom of God.

Kei144:
...Is it whatever your pastor says, or whatever any person calls...
Once again, I tell you that Jesus alone is my reference, and not any pastor, neither any doctrine...
https://www.nairaland.com/2352063/enter-kingdom-god-now#34519061

If like me, Jesus is your Pastor.
If like me, Jesus alone, really is your reference and not any pastor, neither any doctrine, THEN kindly please:
#1 show us in any of the Gospel accounts, where Jesus commanded physical or literal water baptism in order to be saved
#2 show us where Jesus ever, by doctrine or otherwise, publicly or personally told anyone to be baptized with physical or literal water
#2b show us where Jesus recommended or directly advised ritual washings with physical water or literal water for purification
(i.e. baptism a la John the Baptist)
#3 tell us how many people to your knowledge Jesus baptised with physical or literal water
#4 tell us how many people to your knowledge Paul baptised with physical or literal water and why not more than that number
#5 expound the poetic device in John 3:5

PS: Just saw esere826's up there. Welldone!
(i.e. particularly impressed of the "we are saved by both faith and baptism (not water baptism)" and
"are baptised (immersive knowledge and oneness) into the Father, Son and Spirit" bits among other parts)

[b][/b]

Scholar8200:
Pls vouchsafe me Bible references as regards the highlighted!

Let's start here

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(He that does not believe need not be baptized; a baby/ toddler cannot profess saving faith)

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Only those who received the Gospel meaning they heard, were pricked in their hearts as regards their need for salvation, repented and were baptised. See Acts 2:36,37. Only a child who has reached the age of accountability/and those older can do all these! )

Acts 8:36-38

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

(The baptism could only commence after the man had professed saving faith by surrendering to Jesus; Rom 10:9 tells us it is at that time salvation occurs) Note that believing is not mental assent. Rom 10:10 reveals true believing as a heart procedure.

Acts 9:17,18
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Paul had become a member of the family of God hence the title brother. If you read Acts 9:15, The Lord made it clear that he was a chosen vessel meaning old things had passed away.

Acts 16:30-34
30 and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Notice the reply and notice the cause of the joy. Believing that brought salvation always preceded baptism in water. They had to be able to genuinely believe before baptism was brought up. The call to believe was preceded by a deep sense of need. (Believing is more than a mental assent or intellectual acquiescence). It is a heart issue and the heart controls the man.

Acts 20:21
testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Shows the key ingredients both of which cannot be effectively communicated to babies or amoral toddlers

Some of the verses you quoted will apply to adults who can definitely make that profession of faith.
You have however missed out a number of other verses:

Paul in Col. 2:11–12 in effect states that baptism has replaced circumcision. We know that circumcision was done for babies in the OT in anticipation of being raised in a Jewish famly. Would he have used the word ‘circumcision’ that was mainly linked to babies if he thought baptism wasn’t for babies? ( I do know some adults were circumcised). Baptism also then applies to babies in anticipation of being raised in a christian family. See Lydia in Acts 16:15 who was baptised with her household, read further to v33 where the jailer and his family were baptised.
Also note that Jesus comments about children in Matt 19:13-14

The best way to understand early christiantiny is by looking at how it was practised in the first few centuries. See these writings from some early church fathers:

Irenaeus in AD 189 -"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus in AD 215
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Augustine in AD 400 - "What the universal Church holds, not as instituted by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

btoks:
Some of the verses you quoted will apply to adults who can definitely make that profession of faith.
You have however missed out a number of other verses:

Paul in Col. 2:11–12 in effect states that baptism has replaced circumcision. We know that circumcision was done for babies in the OT in anticipation of being raised in a Jewish famly. Would he have used the word ‘circumcision’ that was mainly linked to babies if he thought baptism wasn’t for babies? ( I do know some adults were circumcised). Baptism also then applies to babies in anticipation of being raised in a christian family. See Lydia in Acts 16:15 who was baptised with her household, read further to v33 where the jailer and his family were baptised.
Also note that Jesus comments about children in Matt 19:13-14

The best way to understand early christiantiny is by looking at how it was practised in the first few centuries. See these writings from some early church fathers:

Irenaeus in AD 189 -"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus in AD 215
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Augustine in AD 400 - "What the universal Church holds, not as instituted by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

^^^The Final Position of St. Augustine on Baptism
Read about his ducking and diving here: http://www.romancatholicism.org/augustine-final.html

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God.
But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am--so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Scholar8200:
Who then inspired the ones quoted which you said you also believed? What else do they say?But they sure say we are saved by our faith in the redemption in Christ's blood.

Do you believe that the Lord's supper can be taken unworthily?

In the Bible, none was baptised before they truly believed! And Romans 10:10 tells us salvation is by faith.

I am not saying a person should not be baptised but not before he genuinely repents and surrenders to Christ and his faith is attested to by a newness of life.

You didn't answer the question. You dubiously avoided it as usual.

Do you believe Acts2:38 22:16 when they say Baptism remits sins?

Scholar8200:
Serious allegation! So you mean i contradict the Holy Spirit by quoting from the same scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit? I guess what I am contradicting is your view. Or you may like to show me my personal words (not Bible quotes) that contradict that which the Spirit inspired.

I will show you where you contradicted the Holy Spirit again. Not my words, but the Holy Spirit's words vs your personal words.

Scholar8200:
Of course they were talking of water baptism.
My reply was that Acts 22:16 was not saying water baptism washes away sins! If you read the account being narrated in Acts 9,you will realize that the person Paul was quoting already called him a brother(he was saved by then).

The Holy Spirit:
Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

Do you believe these verses are true?

esere826:


my thoughts>>
we are saved by both faith and baptism (not water baptism) as one
dem all join

When you put together the two writers (Book of Mark and Mathew)who tried to capture Jesus closing statement
it goes like this:

Go into the world and preach the good news. when someone believes, ensure that they are baptised (immersive knowledge and oneness) into the Father, Son and Spirit.
If this is done, they shall be saved through all times just as you have been saved through all times. If they do not believe, well they will remain in the condemnation that is bequeathed by the first birth.
These are some of the characteristics of what save means. The believe and baptism in the three will ensure that that they speak with new tongues and rebuke the sting of death and demons.

Do you believe it when the Holy Spirit says in Acts 2:38 & 22:16 that baptism remits sins?

MuttleyLaff:

You'll be surprised of seeing many,
without physical or literal water baptism,
being found in the Kingdom of God.

If like me, Jesus is your Pastor.
If like me, Jesus alone, really is your reference and not any pastor, neither any doctrine, THEN kindly please:
#1 show us in any of the Gospel accounts, where Jesus commanded physical or literal water baptism in order to be saved
#2 show us where Jesus ever, by doctrine or otherwise, publicly or personally told anyone to be baptized with physical or literal water
#2b show us where Jesus recommended or directly advised ritual washings with physical water or literal water for purification
(i.e. baptism a la John the Baptist)
#3 tell us how many people to your knowledge Jesus baptised with physical or literal water
#4 tell us how many people to your knowledge Paul baptised with physical or literal water and why not more than that number
#5 expound the poetic device in John 3:5

PS: Just saw esere826's up there. Welldone!
(i.e. particularly impressed of the "we are saved by both faith and baptism (not water baptism)" and
"are baptised (immersive knowledge and oneness) into the Father, Son and Spirit" bits among other parts)

John 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he spent some time there with them and baptized.

italo:
John 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he spent some time there with them and baptized.

John 4:2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

Please dont forget the below itemised
#1 show us in any of the Gospel accounts, where Jesus commanded physical or literal water baptism in order to be saved
#2 show us where Jesus ever, by doctrine or otherwise, publicly or personally told anyone to be baptized with physical or literal water
#2b show us where Jesus recommended or directly advised ritual washings with physical water or literal water for purification
(i.e. baptism a la John the Baptist)
#3 tell us how many people to your knowledge Jesus baptised with physical or literal water
#4 tell us how many people to your knowledge Paul baptised with physical or literal water and why not more than that number
#5 expound the poetic device in John 3:5

An italo Bonus #6 As St Augustine supported pugatory and prayer for the dead, do you as well believe in these too

MuttleyLaff:
John 4:2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

Please dont forget the below itemised
#1 show us in any of the Gospel accounts, where Jesus commanded physical or literal water baptism in order to be saved
#2 show us where Jesus ever, by doctrine or otherwise, publicly or personally told anyone to be baptized with physical or literal water
#2b show us where Jesus recommended or directly advised ritual washings with physical water or literal water for purification
(i.e. baptism a la John the Baptist)
#3 tell us how many people to your knowledge Jesus baptised with physical or literal water
#4 tell us how many people to your knowledge Paul baptised with physical or literal water and why not more than that number
#5 expound the poetic device in John 3:5

An italo Bonus #6 As St Augustine supported pugatory and prayer for the dead, do you as well believe in these too

Jesus' apostles baptized in his presence...and he did not rebuke them.

Acts 2:38 Jesus apostles baptized to remit sin, in obedience to his teaching.

That is enough.

Can you show me where Jesus said the apostles should write any letter...or compile any bible...or read it...or where Jesus went to Church?

Yet you do these things because you believe the apostles were doing his intention.

So with baptism.

Kei144:
Jn. 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptised.
Jn. 3:23 Now John also was baptising at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptised.
Jn. 3:24 (This was before John was put in prison.)
Jn. 3:25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing.
Jn. 3:26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan — the one you testified about — well, he is baptising, and everyone is going to him.”
Jn. 3:27 To this John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.
Jn. 3:28 You yourselves can testify that I said, `I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.’
Jn. 3:29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.
Jn. 3:30 He must become greater; I must become less.

Jn. 4:1 The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptising more disciples than John,
Jn. 4:2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptised, but his disciples.

Any pastor who does not baptize as Jesus himself did, is not following the example of Jesus. Water baptism is called ceremonial washing because it is a ceremony or rite of passage from the old man to the new man. God Himself instituted the ceremony and Jesus upheld the ceremony during his earthly ministry. I cannot follow any pastor or evangelist or prophet that looks down on a ceremony that Jesus upheld during his earthly ministry.

Water baptism as practised by John the Baptist up until before Jesus' resurrection, was for repentance.
It was a shadow of the real thing to come. It is like the law before the grace

Just like tithing, it is has gone past is "best before" date.
It can be done for jobsworths but it like tithing, is not necessarily obligatory

Just need you to admit your earlier comment about John 3:5 is a faux pas
and that it has nothing to do with immersion in physical water or baptism with literal water like you claim the verse to be

Similarly as the case is with tithing, no one is looking down at baptism with physical water
but as with tithing, pointing out that it can be done if willed but it is not nessarily obligatory.

Lets with a clear conscience, at least be honest in all of this, and other relating matter

Kei144:
Tit. 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared,
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Tit. 3:6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour,
Tit. 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Ceremonial washing (water baptism) is for rebirth (dying to the old man and being reborn in the new man). Holy Spirit baptism is for renewal of the inner man. Water baptism is an adoption ceremony, which results in a name change (baptized into the name of Jesus--Acts 8:16, 1Co. 1:13).

Jesus after His resurrection made no mention of this temporary adoption of the baptism with literal or physical water
He made reference and recommended baptism with the Spirit, he contrasted it with the baptism of John,
John the Baptist too is publicly confirmed that though he baptises with water, Jesus will baptise with Holy Ghost and fire (i.e. immerse or wash with Holy Ghost and Fire)

italo:


Do you believe it when the Holy Spirit says in Acts 2:38 & 22:16 that baptism remits sins?

Acts 22:16
I thought this was Paul narrating what Ananias said to him? I read the verse again, and could not find anyone saying that the "the Holy Spirit said..."

Acts 2: 38
that was peter speaking, not the Holy Spirit
............................................................

Don't get me wrong
I'm not at this point of interjection into you train of thoughts arguing whether baptism remits sin or not
I'm just setting the record straight about who was speaking in those verses you quoted

we probably can take it on from there

italo:
Jesus' apostles baptized in his presence...and he did not rebuke them.

Acts 2:38 Jesus apostles baptized to remit sin, in obedience to his teaching.

That is enough.

Can you show me where Jesus said the apostles should write any letter...or compile any bible...or read it...or where Jesus went to Church?

Yet you do these things because you believe the apostles were doing his intention.

So with baptism.

italo, I know why, where, when and how I got entangled in this matter with Kei144
but for you I'll leave you with this strongly instructive verse by the one who originally practised water baptism

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance.
But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God.
But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am--so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.