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this post would have been much better if you gave people tips on how to be wealthy, coz we have been hearing this argument for far too long.

Heavenly102:
this post would have been much better if you gave people tips on how to be wealthy, coz we have been hearing this argument for far too long.

We have to first deal with changing the way people think before we give them the How to's.

Heavenly102:
this post would have been much better if you gave people tips on how to be wealthy, coz we have been hearing this argument for far too long.

@Jeromejnr, yes ooo
What are the tips on to be ''wealthy''?
As we have been hearing this argument for far too long, yes, where are the scriptural proof God wants us wealthy?

Just spill the beans. Get on with it jor.
Forget about ''We have to first deal with changing the way people think before we give them the How to's.''
Jesus said we'll always have the poor around
God earlier too said something similar to the Israelites when He said:
''There will always be poor people in the land.
Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land''
so, just do it! Do it now!!

MuttleyLaff:
@Jeromejnr, yes ooo
What are the tips on to be ''wealthy''?
As we have been hearing this argument for far too long, yes, where are the scriptural proof God wants us wealthy?

Just spill the beans. Get on with it jor.
Forget about ''We have to first deal with changing the way people think before we give them the How to's.''
Jesus said we'll always have the poor around
God earlier too said something similar to the Israelites when He said:
''There will always be poor people in the land.
Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land''
so, just do it! Do it now!!

Hehe! Don't worry, when the time is right, I will create a thread for that.

But first, Rom 12:2 "Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

So you first need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect.

Jeromejnr:
Hehe! Don't worry, when the time is right, I will create a thread for that.

But first, Rom 12:2
"Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

So you first need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect

You see my dear brother from another mother, you sometimes, have to be unambiguous and clearly state what you are trying to say in your posts

With this your ''... need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' statement,
are you inferring that poverty can never or can not be good, pleasing and perfect

Now please dont pull out on me that poverty card prayer you showed italo
this is mainly because I know the plan and will of God for me, so dont start that nonsense with me. OK?

MuttleyLaff:
You see my dear brother from another mother, you sometimes, have to be unambiguous and clearly state what you are trying to say in your posts

With this your ''... need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' statement,
are you inferring that poverty can never or can not be good, pleasing and perfect

Now please dont pull out on me that poverty card prayer you showed italo
this is mainly because I know the plan and will of God for me, so dont start that nonsense with me. OK?

Only God understands what you just wrote.

Jeromejnr:
Only God understands what you just wrote.

LOL you see your life now
Wasnt it you who partly wrote ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''?

so I responded with be unambiguous and clearly state what you are trying to say with that reamrk

With this your ''... need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' statement,
are you inferring that poverty can never be or can not be good, pleasing and perfect?

Again please dont pull out on me that poverty card prayer you asked italo pray
- this is mainly because I know the plan and will of God for me, so dont start that nonsense with me. OK?

italo:
See how many words it takes when trying to twist the gospel?

Take this and twist it too:

Luke22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Also, you miraculously failed to notice that Jeromejnr said the Bible is from the satanic Talmud.

Also you didn't mention to your fellow ignorant hypocrites that you teach that water baptism is obsolete and Jesus led his apostles to do it in error.

hmmm, serious!

MuttleyLaff:
LOL you see your life now
Wasnt it you who partly wrote ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''?

so I responded with be unambiguous and clearly state what you are trying to say with that reamrk

With this your ''... need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' statement,
are you inferring that poverty can never be or can not be good, pleasing and perfect?

Again please dont pull out on me that poverty card prayer you asked italo pray
- this is mainly because I know the plan and will of God for me, so dont start that nonsense with me. OK?

SMH.

Jeromejnr:
SMH.

Instead of shaking your head like an agama lizard, why not explain yourself
and defend your in bold red highly subjective ''...first need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' remark
Is it too much to ask? SMH.

MuttleyLaff:
Instead of shaking your head like an agama lizard, why not explain yourself
and defend your in bold red highly subjective ''...first need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' remark
Is it too much to ask? SMH.

Can you rephrase your question in a way I can understand.

I don't even get the point you are trying to drive at.

Jeromejnr:
Can you rephrase your question in a way I can understand

Are you saying, you dont understand or dont recognise your remark again?

Jeromejnr:
I don't even get the point you are trying to drive at.

You wouldnt know, as you drove yourself into a cul de sac

Jeromejnr:
So you first need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect.

Please explain and defend your highly subjective remark in the immediate quote above
Wasnt it you who wrote it that that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect?

MuttleyLaff:
Are you saying, you dont understand or dont recognise your remark again?

You wouldnt know, as you drove yourself into a cul de sac


Please explain and defend your highly subjective remark in the immediate quote above
Wasnt it you who wrote it that that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect?

So let me ask you, is poverty good, pleasing and perfect?

Jeromejnr:
So let me ask you, is poverty good, pleasing and perfect?

Please dont bother asking, as there is no absolute answer to the question
this is why I needed you to explain and defend this remark you made
What was your train of thought when you wrote it?

I know, if poverty is good, pleasing and perfect
but I wont answer you back, not until you stop fidgeting and start explaining or defending the remark

MuttleyLaff:
Please dont bother asking, as there is no absolute answer to the question
this is why I needed you to explain and defend this remark you made
What was your train of thought when you wrote it?

I know, if poverty is good, pleasing and perfect
but I wont answer you back, not until you stop fidgeting and start explaining or defending the remark

Mr. Man, my take on if Poverty is "good...." Has been clearly shown in my topic.

Jeromejnr:
Mr. Man, my take on if Poverty is "good...." Has been clearly shown in my topic

My dear Mr Man, did you not read where I said try and be unambiguous
Your take on if ''Poverty is "good...."'' is not water-tight clear
Why, are you afraid to repeat your stand or repeat your quote on poverty showcasing your ''take''

I can see you are now settling with only ''good'', and have left out ''pleasing'' and ''perfect''
LOL we are making progress, there is hope, being that I am seeing a light at the end of this tunnel you burrowed yourself in

MuttleyLaff:
My dear Mr Man, did you not read where I said try and be unambiguous
Your take on if ''Poverty is "good...."'' is water-tight clear

I can see you are now settling with only ''good'', and have left out ''pleasing'' and ''perfect''
LOL we are making progress, there is hope, being that I am seeing a light at the end of this tunnel you burrowed yourself in

Guy u funny o.

Didn't you see the "...." In front of the good. What does that mean in the English language?

So Mr Man, you are not making any progress.

Jeromejnr:
Guy u funny o.

You are funnier

Jeromejnr:
Didn't you see the "...." In front of the good. Why does that mean in the English language?

Honestly I saw your escape route ''...'' AFTER the good, but thought, no, no, no, he wouldnt try that
but I can see that apart from that poverty prayer you tried cornering italo with, you still have a few more tricks up your sleeve

Jeromejnr:
So Mr Man, you are not making any progress.

If you've been forced to edit your post after reconsidering or after reflection and now settled with just ''good...'' then it is progress

Note I havent played or showed my trump card yet, which will show how that your remark wasn't well thought through before making it

MuttleyLaff:
You are funnier

Honestly I saw your escape route ''...'' AFTER the good, but thought, no, no, no, he wouldnt try that
but I can see that apart from that poverty prayer you tried cornering italo with, you still have a few more tricks up your sleeve

If you've been forced to edit your post after reconsidering or after reflection and now settled with just ''good...'' then it is progress

Note I havent played or showed my trump card yet, which will show how that your remark wasn't well thought through before making it

With all this your weird comments, are you not bothered about the way people will be looking at you

Jeromejnr:
With all this your weird comments, are you not bothered about the way people will be looking at you

Pretend not knowing, play the ignorance game, do whatever you like
just know that, it is on record you said:
''...you first need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''

I have asked you the umpteenth time what your train of thought was when you made the remark,
but alas, instead of explaining, defending or backing up the remark, you're playing hide and seek with me

MuttleyLaff:
Pretend not knowing, play the ignorance game, do whatever you like
just know that, it is on record you said:
''...you first need to understand that poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''

I have asked you the umpteenth time what your train of thought was when you made the remark,
but alas, instead of explaining, defending or backing up the remark, you're playing hide and seek with me

My train of thought is revealed in the remark itself.

Jeromejnr:
My train of thought is revealed in the remark itself.

My brother, why are you behaving like this now.
Sebi we are learning off each other, isnt it. No be competition ooo
Just expatiate the remark
Tell what you meant with it, make an attempt
write at length or in detail what you meant by ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''

MuttleyLaff:
My brother, why are you behaving like this now.
Sebi we are learning off each other, isnt it. No be competition ooo
Just expatiate the remark
Tell what you meant with it, make an attempt
write at length or in detail what you meant by ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''

Guy, e be like say you like me. If you wan be my friend, tell me o, I am a very friendly person. I will give you my number sef.

MuttleyLaff:
My brother, why are you behaving like this now.
Sebi we are learning off each other, isnt it. No be competition ooo
Just expatiate the remark
Tell what you meant with it, make an attempt
write at length or in detail what you meant by ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''

BTW, if you think you could try to trap me in your debates, just forget it.

I watch what I say and I'm very good at defending myself.

Jeromejnr:
Guy, e be like say you like me. If you wan be my friend, tell me o, I am a very friendly person. I will give you my number sef.

Now I know you're not just a comedian but you also do clowning on the side

Jeromejnr:
BTW, if you think you could try to trap me in you debates, just forget it.

Trap you?
I leave those skills for the best in the game. You!
You're very good at entraping people like you tried with italo and twice with me too

Jeromejnr:
I watch what I say and I'm very good at defending myself.

I dont doubt you, as you're a very bright guy
Am sure you've realised and seen the faux pas in that ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' remark of yours
but fear of losing face, ego etcetera should in case there are holes in your explanation prevents you from throwing more light on the remark

MuttleyLaff:
Now I know you're not just a comedian but you also do clowning on the side

Trap you?
I leave those skills for the best in the game. You!
You're very good at entraping people like you tried with italo and twice with me too

I dont doubt you, as you're a very bright guy
Am sure you've realised and seen the faux pas in that ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect'' remark of yours
but fear of losing face, ego etcetera should in case there are holes in your explanation prevents you from throwing more light on the remark

Okay, so now that you are ready to talk, what do you want me to explain clearly?.

Jeromejnr:
Okay, so now that you are ready to talk,

Am like that battery, Ever Ready

Jeromejnr:
what do you want me to explain clearly?.

Throw more light, explain or expatiate the remark
Tell what you meant with it,
Write at length or in detail what you meant by ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''

MuttleyLaff:
Am like that battery, Ever Ready

Throw more light, explain or expatiate the remark
Tell what you meant with it,
Write at length or in detail what you meant by ''...poverty is not good, pleasing and perfect''

So we are going to be applying both human common sense and scriptures:

Common sense- Poverty obviously is not a good thing, It's not a pleasant experience and in the aspect of perfection, the default goal of every human is perfection. And for perfection to happen there has to be success in a series of events. Success=Prosperity.

Prosperity=Prosper which comes from the Latin Prosperus ("Doing well". Doing well according to human language in the aspect of career or finances means making profits. Making Profits=Making More money.

Making more money=Prosper, Prosper=Prosperity. Prosperity is the opposite of Poverty. So there we can also say Poverty is never anyone's perfect will.


Scriptures:

Poverty is a curse from God which came as a result of disobedient to God's will. "Deut 28: 16...".

God said in Deut 5:29 "Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!"

Go well=Do well which is also "Doing well" as I said in the illustration above and doing well = Prosper.

Now God also said:
Deut 30:19 "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live"

He gave man options either you obey and follow Him or not. The consequences of your actions is either life. Life=Blessings, Death=Curses.

And He advised to choose life. Him advising to choose life means it is His good, pleasing and perfect will for us to enjoy His blessings.

And noticed in the two scriptures He talked about their children living long and everything being well with them.

The "Oh" at the beginning shows His heart cry and desire, His passion to see His good, pleasing and perfect will come to pass.

So yes poverty can never be His good, pleasing and perfect will.

But someone might say, that's just the old testament. God might have changed it now.

Back to scriptures:

Mal 3:6

“For I am the Lord, I do not change;.."

Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

So God's character and nature of being good and doing good can not and will never change.

Thank you.

Jeromejnr:
So we are going to be applying both human common sense and scriptures:

Common sense- Poverty obviously is not a good thing, It's not a pleasant experience and in the aspect of perfection, the default goal of every human is perfection. And for perfection to happen there has to be success in a series of events. Success=Prosperity.

Prosperity=Prosper which comes from the Latin Prosperus ("Doing well". Doing well according to human language in the aspect of career or finances means making profits. Making Profits=Making More money.

Making more money=Prosper, Prosper=Prosperity. Prosperity is the opposite of Poverty. So there we can also say Poverty is never anyone's perfect will.

Scriptures:

Poverty is a curse from God which came as a result of disobedient to God's will. "Deut 28: 16...".

God said in Deut 5:29 "Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!"

Go well=Do well which is also "Doing well" as I said in the illustration above and doing well = Prosper.

Now God also said:
Deut 30:19 "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live"

He gave man options either you obey and follow Him or not. The consequences of your actions is either life. Life=Blessings, Death=Curses.

And He advised to choose life. Him advising to choose life means it is His good, pleasing and perfect will for us to enjoy His blessings.

And noticed in the two scriptures He talked about their children living long and everything being well with them.

The "Oh" at the beginning shows His heart cry and desire, His passion to see His good, pleasing and perfect will come to pass.

So yes poverty can never be His good, pleasing and perfect will.

But someone might say, that's just the old testament. God might have changed it now.

Back to scriptures:

Mal 3:6

“For I am the Lord, I do not change;.."

Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

So God's character and nature of being good and doing good can not and will never change.

Thank you.

You know I love you bro, and so you wouldnt mind this lickle bit of shown tough love
Sorry I am not going to break up your post whilst addressing it

#1 There is good success and bad success, not blatant success
#2 You've put out a dim view of what ''Prosperity'' is, what happened to 3 John 1:2?

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth

#3 children living long? How long is long? How long did Jesus live? Is 33 years long enough for you?
#4 Skip the old testament. Skip if God might have changed now
Skip Mal 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;.." and Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

What of 2 Corinthians 8:9?

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor,
so that you through his poverty might become rich

Or what of 2 Corinthians 6:10?

2 Corinthians 6:10
Our hearts ache, but we always have joy.
We are poor, but we give spiritual riches to others.
We own nothing, and yet we have everything

How about Revelation 2:9?

Revelation 2:9
"I know about your suffering and your poverty--but you are rich!
I know the blasphemy of those opposing you.
They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan.

I am guessing you're now seeing how ''...poverty CAN BE good, pleasing and perfect''
- God found it good, pleasing and perfect that He used it as part of His plan for the world

God allowed the prodigal son to come back to his senses because of poverty.
Poverty was good, pleasing and perfect for him, as it played a part in bringing him back to his senses

I'll close with Luke 12:31

Luke 12:31
Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and he will give you everything you need.

Muchas gracias for your co-op.

MuttleyLaff:
What Jeromejnr said didnt deem commenting on
as everyone knows the Talmud isnt God inspired
- at least, not if we're going by 2 Timothy 3:16 guideline
Anyway, trawl through my past posts, to see what my take is on the Talmud is
(e.g. use the search tool with search word muttleylaff+talmud)


Better still, saving your the time & effort,
you should be able to pick out my view on the Talmud from the below snippet touching on another subject

- SNIPPET -

(4) The Oral Law of the Jews (later written as the Talmud)
- the interpretation of Moses' Law by the Scribes and Pharisees.

It is followed by the Orthodox Jews to this day as of equal authority to the Bible.

They falsely claimed it was passed down from Moses by word of mouth.
Jesus clashed with Pharisees over this law. He rejected it and came against it's legalistic spirit (Matt15:3, Mark7:3).

Now when 1 Cor 14:34,35 refers to a law of silence for women, it couldn't be:
(1) because there's no such law in the Old-Testament and he would say 'it is written';
neither is it found in the Gospels (2).
Neither is it (3) because it is clearly a pre-existing law.
Therefore by a process of elimination it must be (4) The Jewish Oral Law (the laws of the Pharisees)

This is confirmed by the phrase: 'As also SAYS the Law.' - a reference to the ORAL law rather than the WRITTEN law (scripture).
(see also Matt 5:21,27,31, 33,38,43)

Also, we know this because it agrees completely with the Talmud and applies to Orthodox synagogues today. The service is for men only. Women are discouraged from even learning, but are sometimes allowed to watch from the gallery, for their place is at home not with things too high for them! And it would be shameful for them to speak in a meeting.

TALMUDIC QUOTES illustrate this:
A Jewish Prayer:'Praise God He hasn't created me a gentile, a woman or an ignorant man.'
'The woman, says the law, is in all things inferior to the man.'
Only men could speak in public (Beraktoth 4,36; Mishnah Aboth 1,5)
No woman could give a testimony or conduct business. (Mishnah Shabbath 4,1)

Women were viewed with disregard and repression, and the Talmud contains many distasteful insults of women's character. They were to be avoided. They were not required to know or fulfil the law and so few were learned.

One said: 'May the words of the Torah be burned rather than be given to women.'
In public worship they were segregated and silenced and so had to ask questions of their husbands at home.

Clearly the writer of 1 Cor 14:34,35 reflected this Pharisaical attitude to women and used this Jewish Law to support his views.

So why would Paul say something that stands in contradiction to the immediate context and the rest of the New Testament? Why would he establish this teaching on Jewish Laws that elsewhere, both he and Jesus rejected?

The simple answer is these verses are not Paul's teaching!
Paul's letters are written in response church situations. 1 Corinthians is the most responsive of them all. Paul had received reports about what was going on (1:11, 5:1, 6:1,8 ), and the church had sent a letter to Paul with many questions (7:1,8,10,12,25; 8:1,4; 12:1; 16:1). There was disunity (1:10-12,3:3). In particular there were 2 groups of people saved from different backgrounds disputing -Jews who tended toward legalism, and Greeks who tended toward license. Paul goes through the issues and questions raised one by one.

Examples of when Paul is clearly responding to what one group has said are 6:15-20 (Greeks); 9:1-11; 11:1-16 (Jews) and 15:12,35,36.

Sometimes he refers what they are saying and then he answers them -e.g.1 Cor 4:8: 'You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us.' (this is what some of them had claimed) --'and indeed I wish you did reign, that we might also reign with you.' (Paul's answer - see also 4:10)

Sometimes he even quotes what they say and then answers them. The problem is that there are no punctuation or quote marks in the Greek and the translators often miss them out.

Some examples of this, are when he responds to the 'loose' Greeks as in 6:12,13:
(You say) 'All things are lawful for me.'
(I Paul) say: 'but all things are not helpful.'
(You say) 'All things are lawful for me.'
(I Paul) say: 'but I will not be brought under the power of any.'
(You say) 'Food is for the stomach and the stomach for foods.'
(I Paul) say: 'but God will destroy both it and them.'
We see the same in 10:23,24.

In questions about idols Paul challenges those who pride themselves in their knowledge but who do not hold it in love. (8:1-3) 8:4: 'We know that -'an idol is nothing in the world and that there is but one God' (again he quotes their words (their knowledge) before he answers as confirmed in v10,11.

Other examples are when he responds to the 'legalistic Jews', 7:1:
'Now concerning what you wrote to me,
(some of you said) 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.'
(But I Paul say) 'Nevertheless because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife...'

Now we can understand what is happening in 1 Cor 14:34,35.
Paul is quoting what some Jewish converts to Christ, had written in a letter to Paul, complaining about women being involved in church services. Although they were saved they were used to male-dominated synagogue - worship and so found the equality of women in church life hard to take.

They were saying: 'Paul, these women are prophesying, praying out loud, speaking in tongues. The Oral law says it's shameful for a woman to speak in public. Tell them to shut-up!'

So as Paul is teaching on every member participating in church services, it is the natural place for him to deal with their objection. So he quotes what they say: 'Let your women keep silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church' (v34,35)

Then he answers them: 'What, came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only? If any think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you (not the Talmud) are the commandments of the Lord (the true authority) But if any (choose to be) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.' (v36-38) Paul replies by asserting his apostolic authority above the Talmud.

This also explains why these verses come out of the blue, interrupting the flow of thought, which is picked up again in v39,40: 'Therefore brethren,covet to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues.'

The placement of v34,35 in the passage as a clear interruption and marked contrast to what Paul is teaching, serves to separate them from Paul's own views.

We conclude that Paul isn't silencing women, rather the opposite!

Those who are too quick to agree with v34,35 have unwittingly submitted to an unchristian pharisaical spirit

- /SNIPPET -

Bottom line, the Talmud is to the Bible, what the Hadith is to the Quran. Enough said

Great