truthislight:



Well, its like you agree that Jesus is also called morning Star like the other sons of God. Since you agree by your silence and silence is consent, I may not have to show it to you again unless otherwise stated.

Peace.

johnw74:


You were shown that Father God never called an angel "my Son'


you reject the scriptures
you stick with your lie
and you think God doesn't see

johnw74:
Thread Title:

Re: Was Satan By Default An Angel? [size=14pt]Prove It If You Think Jesus Never Exist As Angel[/size]




Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:13 But to which of the Angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?



Father God has never called an Angel "His Son".


Father God has never said to an Angel "sit at my right hand"

BERNIMOORE:
The sentence above (in bold) is where i am driving my argument to, i decided to put the thread in a way that it will draw answers in a practical and comparable way, you think i dont know that satan was an angel?

BERNIMOORE:
of course you rightly quoted part of it, or that jesus was also an arch angel that run errands for God while some angels are under his control, some of my works in 2012 dealt with that. the thread was directed to the trinitarians that i have engaged before like OLAADEGBU and co.

BERNIMOORE:
i want to thank you for your sincerity since i discovered that we both agree on some of these issues

BERNIMOORE:
but there are areas we will still need to reconcile

1, satan as an Arch ange

BERNIMOORE:
2, Jesus The Almighty God same as his father

johnw74:


If you are going to come back with a long study for me
don't waste your time, I won't read it

I know satan is an [size=14pt]angle
[/size]
I know Jesus Christ is not an Angel

I don't care what you think on it
or what jw pharacees think

BERNIMOORE:
so satan is an angle, angle 90' 180' or 360'? see what fight is doing to your concentration, while it will be on record that i have never insulted you. neither was i part of the jw people you have issues with.

you dont care what i think but you want me to care about what you think!

you still dont get it, i dont need to beg you with what i believe, i only responded because you 'came on my thread' only to realise that you had already concluded in your mind to fight whoever tried to ask of proof that satan was an angel.

john74 you are NOT fair to me at all, are you saying that i dont have the right to my own opinion? when you have your own right?

its very funny anyway.

MuttleyLaff:
I had previously gone through almost all your threads/posts if not all, and already came to realise you're in the ''Satan was an angel'' camp

Thats how I got to quote part of your previous thread which is relevant to this present one

Trinity or trinitarians, ah, a topic not good for the faint-hearted and/or religious bigot

I want to thank you too, as you come across as level-headed.
Your postings are calm and sensible, you seem not afraid to get your feet wet feet,
nor dont mind delving further into deep waters,
I dont know why you dont mind the deep end,
maybe its because you know how to swim out or maybe it's due to the life-jacket you've strapped on

Let start with this first,
do you agree that, first and foremost, satan is a celestial being

Satan, before angel or Arch-angel (i.e. which a step above an angel) comes into the picture, fundamentally, is an invisible being.

Secondly, its vital to agree that, not all celestial beings or invisible beings are angels, however all angels are celestial or invisible beings
Some celestial or invisible beings are stationed or have offices and dont go on errands
Some celestial or invisible beings, are stationed or have offices and combinedly, do go on errands

BERNIMOORE:
yet they get irritated when you prove your own convinction. thats just the case of one john74 on this thread who never knew me from adam and yet not interested in my topic yet calling me names its funny anyway because since he has got no proof tangible i dont think i will have his time.

johnw74:


yeah i spelt a word wrong, i must have bad concentration, duh

you posted to me
not i to you
like jmaho5 you stuck your nose in where it wasn't wanted
they are wrong as you are

you and they have rejected scriptures i have posted
am i going to post them again to show you, no
go back and look for them.

BERNIMOORE:
did the bible says that satan was a cherub? show me word for word
did the bible say that satan was an angel word for word show me.

BERNIMOORE:
Thats the effect of getting yourself annoyed unduly, i dont know your age but you still behave like someone not matured to handle issues in a matured way.




where did i post to you? is it on this thread? i think you should go back to page 0, you were the very first person to quote my p[ost and comment.


which scripture? the scripture you posted did not prove anything, i have treated it in my coded post (A#1) you were afraid to show further proofs when the ones you relied on in the passage failed to adress the issue

here was my reply because it seems you want us to go round the tables thats why i coded my replies post (A#1)

below are all the contents of bible verses that you quoted which all failed to call satan an angel!



Ezekiel 28:13,14 and 15

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Ephesians 3:9King James Version (KJV)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Psalm 99:1King James Version (KJV)

The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.

Isaiah 14:13King James Version (KJV)

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north

Revelation 12:3,4,7-9
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


your reply Fail to address (A)in the very Topic, that is; lets see the scriptures you quoted in your juxtapose,

a, Ezekiel 28:13, 15
b, Ezekiel 28:14
c, Ephesians 3:9
d, Psalms 99:1
e, Isaiah 14:13, 14.
f, John 8:44

g, Revelation 12:3,4
h Revelation 12:7-9

a-f .....did not mention that Lucifer was Satan while;
'g' and 'H' ...did not Mention lucifer at all among names that satan was called in 'h' neither was satan called an angel in the passage
so your proof lacks the substance that is.... to prove where the bible/sacred scriptures DIRECTLY says that satan is/was an angel

johnw74:
Thread Title:

Re: Was Satan By Default An Angel? [size=14pt]Prove It If You Think Jesus Never Exist As Angel[/size]




Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:13 But to which of the Angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?



Father God has never called an Angel "His Son".


Father God has never said to an Angel "sit at my right hand"

truthislight:


See you blundering out of ignorance below on red:

johnw74:

Father God has never called an Angel "His Son".

The above is a misrepresentation of Yahweh and a lie, it is also an error against the Bible.







Though you came here to lie against Yahweh.


So, again I say, STOP LYING!



Peace.

johnw74:



I know you don't believe the bible and you keep showing that to be true over and over again


The sentence you went satanic over
vvv
Father God has never called an Angel "His Son".

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

and again you don't believe that verse you don't believe the Bible

Angels are called sons of God because God the Word created the Angels
Father God has never called an angel "my Son" as the verse above which is true tells

other verses show also that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God,
father God calls Jesus "my Son" but never did to an Angel ,as the verse above shows, which you don't believe

truthislight:


Lol.

johnw74:
Thread Title:

Re: Was Satan By Default An Angel? [size=14pt]Prove It If You Think Jesus Never Exist As Angel[/size]




Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:13 But to which of the Angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?



Father God has never called an Angel "His Son".


Father God has never said to an Angel "sit at my right hand"

BERNIMOORE:
did the bible says that satan was a cherub? show me word for word
did the bible say that satan was an angel word for word show me.

johnw74:


more typical jw confusion, which is to be expected from a sect that say's the Word Jesus Christ is an Angel
and who have been giving false prophecies of the Kingdom coming for decades
they believe everything watch tower tells them but don't believe the Bible
except their corrupted changed version.

Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Those verses are more proof of their disbelief and being led by satan.

Tjayjosh:

You asked two questions. The answer is Yes for both. Trying to understand the scriptures deductively, may never give you the answers you truly need. "You may frequently be like a blind man grooming in a dark room for a black cat which is not there". Most words as used in the Bible are metaphorical in nature. As you cannot seperate fish from water, you cannot seperate metaphor with the writen word of God. And the disciples came and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mystries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given (Matthew 13:10-11). Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said this is an hard saying; who can understand it? When jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What if ye shall see the son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. You need the spirit of God in you before you can fully understand and interpret His word. prophecy in Ezekiel 28:11-19 talked about the king of tyre. However, some of the descriptions in this bible passage go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly
king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who
covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual
prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of
Satan as described in Isaiah 14:12-14. This exceptional long prophecy against Tyre shows a veiled description of satan (28:11-19) as the real power behind the king of Tyre. Satan was not directly called an angel in the bible.

For what we know, he was called "a cherub."

Tjayjosh:
However, some of the descriptions in this bible passage go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly
king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who
covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.”

BERNIMOORE:
its a mind set,
most of the believers are not ready to come out of their comfort zone (what they are persuaded to believe)
and honestly test their convinction because of fear of failure so they hung to their 'untested beliefs' with a 'made up mind'
yet they get irritated when you prove your own convinction.

BERNIMOORE:
thats just the case of one john74 on this thread who never knew me from adam
and yet not interested in my topic yet calling me names
its funny anyway because since he has got no proof tangible i dont think i will have his time.

BERNIMOORE:
Of course yes, i agree that satan was a celestial beign and invincible being

MuttleyLaff:


johnw74 knows what he is doing,
the jw name calling is a cunning plan designed to turn the state of affairs to his own advantage

Every time jw is typed, regardless of you saying you arent jw, it's used try to drown you out or done to try and emasculate you

Is the bold meant to be a past tense (i.e. ''was'') or present tense (i.e. ''is'')?

BERNIMOORE:
lets leave the guy out before he attacks you

BERNIMOORE:
so that we can have a meaningful discussion, He is reduced to one Dimensional

BERNIMOORE:
i think both (''is'' and ''was'') in my own context fits the fact that satan still remains celestial and invincible!

johnw74:


your dishonesty is severe, you don't adress the subject, but change it
because you cannot admit you are wrong

MuttleyLaff:
I hear you, loud and clear

Hmm

Haba Chief, you can't have your cake and eat it (too)
Wetin be ''i think both ''is'' and ''was''?''

It's either satan is a celestial being and due to the limitations of human beings' vision, is invisible to human beings' korokoro eyes
and satan, as up to now, remains still being a celestial being and invisible
(i.e. satan had not for a fraction of a second, EVER stopped to be a celestial being or at any time stopped being invisible to human beings)

No one, no human being, bible recorded or not, has ever seen satan before,
so what's with ''i think both (''is'' and ''was'') in my own context''?
What's that all about?

MuttleyLaff:
I hear you, loud and clear

Hmm

Haba Chief, you can't have your cake and eat it (too)
Wetin be ''i think both ''is'' and ''was''?''

It's either satan is a celestial being and due to the limitations of human beings' vision, is invisible to human beings' korokoro eyes
and satan, as up to now, remains still being a celestial being and invisible
(i.e. satan had not for a fraction of a second, EVER stopped to be a celestial being or at any time stopped being invisible to human beings)

No one, no human being, bible recorded or not, has ever seen satan before,
so what's with ''i think both (''is'' and ''was'') in my own context''?
What's that all about?

BERNIMOORE:
did the bible says that satan was a cherub? show me word for word
did the bible say that satan was an angel word for word show me.

Tjayjosh:
You asked two questions. The answer is Yes for both.

Tjayjosh:
Trying to understand the scriptures deductively, may never give you the answers you truly need

Tjayjosh:
"You may frequently be like a blind man grooming in a dark room for a black cat which is not there". Most words as used in the Bible are metaphorical in nature. As you cannot seperate fish from water, you cannot seperate metaphor with the writen word of God. And the disciples came and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mystries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given (Matthew 13:10-11). Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said this is an hard saying; who can understand it? When jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What if ye shall see the son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Tjayjosh:
You need the spirit of God in you before you can fully understand and interpret His word.

Tjayjosh:
Prophecy in Ezekiel 28:11-19 talked about the king of tyre. However, some of the descriptions in this bible passage go beyond any mere human king

Tjayjosh:
In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden”

Tjayjosh:
or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan as described in Isaiah 14:12-14. This exceptional long prophecy against Tyre shows a veiled description of satan (28:11-19) as the real power behind the king of Tyre.
Satan was not directly called an angel in the bible. For what we know, he was called "a cherub." A cherub/cherubim is an angel. A tiger my not be called a cat, but it is still a cat.

Boomark:
Please answer these questions honestly.

1. Do you agree that Jesus is a Messenger of God? E.g. "'Behold, I send My messenger,... And the Lord, whom you seek,... the Messenger of the covenant,... says the LORD of hosts" (full details at Malachi 3:1). Rev 1:1, God gave him a message to deliver to us of things to come(this is true no matter who finally deliver the message to us)

Boomark:
2. Do you agree that Angels are messengers of God?

Boomark:
3. Do you agree that in 1 and 2, Jesus and the Angels are messengers of God, doing similar work for God at different levels?
Use a Yes or No answer before adding your reasons.

A 'Yes and No' ONLY answer is not allowed.
Do not start by telling us how Jesus christ is God, use bible verses about messenger and, or Angels to support your submission.

Would like to hear from MuttleyLaff too.

dolphinheart:
I think one issue should be cleared, are all invisible beings celestial?

BERNIMOORE:
ok, satan ''is'' a celestial being, are you ok with that now

BERNIMOORE:
But you know that satan Has no place among other celestials in heaven anymore! he has already fall out of Gods arrangements.

Rev 12:8 and 9
8 but they (Devil and his angels) did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Boomark:
Please answer these questions honestly.

1. Do you agree that Jesus is a Messenger of God? E.g. "'Behold, I send My messenger,... And the Lord, whom you seek,... the Messenger of the covenant,... says the LORD of hosts" (full details at Malachi 3:1). Rev 1:1, God gave him a message to deliver to us of things to come(this is true no matter who finally deliver the message to us).

2. Do you agree that Angels are messengers of God?

3. Do you agree that in 1 and 2, Jesus and the Angels are messengers of God, doing similar work for God at different levels?

MuttleyLaff:
Am not saying, you tried pulling a fast one on us there,
but only wanted to see how you stood, on whether satan is a celestial being or not a celestial being anymore
- one cant, on a matter like this, sit on the fence, like you first tried to do bro

Yes, Satan, from time immemorial, has always been an ex-Heaven resident
and long gone lost favour with God

truthislight:
On the red, not so fast Watson.

truthislight:
can we have some particulars? what evidence do you have for the statement on red?

truthislight:
I am keenly interested. when did that "time immemorial" started. and the evidences for that statement.

peace.

MuttleyLaff:


Clearing this will depend on what ones understanding of what celestial is or what celestial means

You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil
--the commander of the powers in the unseen world.
He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God
- Ephesians 2:2

The earth was redeveloped/re-created for human beings (i.e. man)

and as such the only beings legally allowed to operated on earth are human beings
(i.e. beings with a BODY made from earth)

All celestial or invisible beings know this
They all understand that a body is needed in order to be legally living and operating on earth
- if any interested, can expatiate and give examples about this

This is how serious this is, even, God, Himself abided by this decree
and didnt make Himself an exception to it
God obtained a body in the person of Jesus, God the Son, to legally operate on earth

dolphinheart:
Yep, that I'm waiting for too

dolphinheart:
Need scriptural proof of the bold above

dolphinheart:
Numbers 22:20-34 says otherwise.

The angel that guarded the isrealites on earth did not always take on a physical human body when he guided the Isrealites

dolphinheart:
The holy spirit did not take up human body when operating on earth

dolphinheart:
At bold, God obtained a body for jesus, the angel told Mary that the son she will bear will be called "gods son"
Not "god the son", that sentence does not exist in the scriptures

MuttleyLaff:
You forgot to add Watson at the end

Permit me to qualify the statement on red with this:
Satan, from time immemorial, has always been an ex-Heaven resident stopped having influence in the Heaven

Please dont start asking a, how long is a piece of string, question.

Peace, love & hair grease.