Richirich713:


That's the whole point, Isaiah saw Yahweh, u say any1 wu claimed to see Yahweh saw Jesus,

So why don't u call jesus Yahweh, if u believe Isaiah did it ?

plappville:


The bible made it clear that No man can See God and live. We always read the Angel of the Lord that appears to many people of the OT book. This same Angel is Called God most times. That's why I said they See Jesus Not the Father. If Isaiah saw the Lord that means He saw the Lord Jesus Christ. Not the Most High God. If we must believe He saw the Most High God then we must ignore exodus 33:20 But he said, you cannot see my Face, For no man may see me and Live.

And the NT confirm this : No man has Ever seen God, but the one and Only son, (Jesus) whom in himself God, is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.

You can even see that Jesus heart is not Gods Heart. If He is near to His fathers heart then you should know they are not same being. No man has ever. Not in thé OT nor NT. That's what bible says not me.

Richirich713:


I don't get u. U say

1) the father is Yahweh Almighty nd cannot be seen.

2) but when we are told in the old testament Yahweh was seen by Isaiah, Moses etc u say it must have been jesus.

3)Yet jesus isn't Yahweh but is being called Yahweh by Isaiah nd moses.

twosquare:


(1) Not just angels alone, Prophets are also servants....Amos 3:7: Surely the Lord Yahweh will do nothing, unless he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets. Therefore, going by your own method of analysis...Jesus is also a Prophet.

(2) Yeah, He is now the express image of His person, the Father leaves all judgement to the Son.... The Father is the negative, Jesus is the positive .... The Father has remained darkened to men, Jesus is the only Man who can unveil Him....Do you want to see the negative of a picture? Develop it and you will see the actual....That's Jesus for you.

(3) He was the Word in the beginning, but now His title has changed to the Son of God (God in human flesh)....Another type of race that has never been...God can't give it to angels but only to the Adamic race..God is now in man and man is now in God forever..that's the essence and ultimate sacrifice that the Word paid...It's more than the forgiveness of sin...reason He is worshipped. Angel cannot worship another angel. And angels cannot worship anything less than God.

(4) The second person in trinity is a Man...the first Man was glorified by the reason of inheriting the things of God the Father ...Jesus of Nazareth was lower than angels just like Adam...the Adamic person who stood in Eden is like the angels before the fall....Jesus is a Man and still have that property in Him, but not after the order of the first Adam...This man is now Christo.

(5) Again, He is a man.....Paul revealed this secret....Your quote: God is not a man (That is a revelation by Balaam who is saying He is not after the order of fallen men that practices a lie (we all know who is the father of it) and Balaam doesn't even know the plan of God about the end of days which was preached to Abraham. Even this caught Satan by surprise. He doesn't believe God can descend so low even unto the point of Adam, and downwards into hell. Listen to Paul: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)
...................................First time you can hold God and catch Him, if He wasn't reduced to a man, they will not be able to nail Him to a cross.

(6) Please change your thoughts. it is evident that you're still thinking after the order of the first Adam, the second Adam who is on the throne doesn't need a mother...He was not even born of a woman (I hope you know what that means). Adams are not born of women. Perhaps you've forgotten: There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

(7) That will still bring me to the question you haven't answered: Who are the sons of men?

Among those born of woman, none is greater than John......

plappville:


Thats why I said. They were actually Seeing Jesus not Yehweh. Even if they say they have seen Yahweh. Didn't The Most High made it clear No man Can see Him? That's one question you should Ponder at. Of course I can understand your argument. The bible verse you quoted tells Yahweh was seen by Isaiah. But we must look at what other verses say in order not to look confused. Cause God is not an author of confusion. If He says He cannot be seen by Man. I think we should take him for his word.

Richirich713:


The most high inspire Isaiah to write what he wrote.
if moses or Isaiah called jesus Yahweh Almighty, shouldn't he correct them?

I don't ponder over those verses cuz I believe in the trinity.

So to me Isaiah can correctly call jesus Yahweh, for Yahweh name is within jesus.

Just like when the holy spirit is called Yahweh in the Old Testament.

But anyway, when the bible says moses spoke to God face to face it was using a hebrew idiom, a figure of speech to show how close moses relationship is to God.

That's why I go look at the hebrew not the English only. A translation doesn't tell the full story, just like
"El Shaddai" which is usually translated as God Almighty.

plappville:


You have ignored those verses. And have believed that Man can see God and live. This is contradictory. Anyway, did you study Hebrew? How do you look at it in Hebrew?

Richirich713:


No I haven't ignore them, as I said hebrew idioms is usually strange to us cuz we a modern western culture. It u who ignore them.

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known"
(John 1:18)

This verse says no one can see the father.

And just like u said people who claimed to see God saw Jesus, that's exactly what Trinitarians believe, jesus is divine, he is eternal, he is one with God. The father is in the son and the Son is in the father.

I learned a little hebrew while reading books on the bible , I'm still learning but at the moment I too busy to continue, I just remember some stuff I read.

Here a small example of how I learned at first.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/m/faqs.html

Most of the books I use on hebrew comes from this site.

plappville:


Honestly, i enjoy discussing with you. But when i said they claim to have seen Yahweh. It means They infact Saw Jesus taking him to be Yahweh who cannot be seen by anyone. That verse you put up there says the son is Also God. And also shows He has a father.

Just few questions?

1)Do you think Jesus is the Most high God?

plappville:

2)Is Jesus A Father to Himself? Because He calls Someone Father Who is this (Father of His) ?

plappville:



3)Who is "The Angel of the Lord" in the OT?

plappville:


4)Do you agree that everything that is not God depends totally on God.?

plappville:

5)Did Jesus ever depend on God?

plappville:


Its nice you pick interest in learning Hebrew. I admire your courage. More grace to your Elbows. But i think the Bible translators are Hebrew and Greek degree holders. Thats why they have the license to translate the Scripture.

Richirich713:


Yes in the sense that he is divine/God and uncreated. So he can be called Yahweh / God / Lord of Lords / eternal etc.

But not in the sense that he is the trinity.

No he is not a father to himself, when we say jesus is God we mean he is divine , the father is in him nd he is in the father.

U see u think of jesus as a created being, I believe he is the uncreated word of God. Evens tho I don't believe he is the father I can't separate him from the father cuz they are one in unity.

Look at the muslim beliefs, it's difficult for them to explain how Allah can be one with the his word/quran but he is not the word/quran. That's y muslims made the word tawhid to explain the unity between Allah nd his Word.

In the same way christians made the word trinity to explain the unity between the word of God,It's something u just can't separate.

If I were to say the father is god without his word, it's like asking is the father still God without his power or wisdom.

U see the difficulty in the question, I can't separate the power or wisdom from God for his wisdom, power and word is one with him and in him.

Do u see wat I mean jesus is in the father and the father is in him ?

If u interested , Here a christian apologist who explains it better than me :


http://christianthinktank.com/howtrin.html

Richirich713:


I believe he is Jesus , and it's not a problem to my Trinitarians beliefs, since he is called Yahweh / God in the old testament.



Yes, but I believe jesus became flesh, he enter into creation, but he never stop being the Word of God which held everything together.



Yes after he became human he depended on the father but that doesn't mean he stop being divine, the word of God. He remained divine nd eternal as the word.

plappville:

Please give me a clear detail here. Believing the Angel of the Lord in thé old testament to be Jesus and also saying Jesus is Yahweh. Is equally saying Yahweh himself is That angel of the Lord. I don't know if I get you wrong

plappville:

I don't think any Christian has ever disputed the divinity of Jesus. That's not actually what I wanted you to tell me. I asked if Jesus called himself God. If He Jesus is thé Father.

Ah, here you just finish matter. So Jesus is not the Father. When u say one in unity. Are they one in Position/authority too?

plappville:


But at a point of time Christ and His father were separated. When Christ has already ascended to Heaven. He was still called "Man" God was never call man in scriptures.

plappville:

Yes are in each other. But seperate Beings. I and my husband are one flesh. But seperate persons. Christians are one in Christ. Yet separate persons. God is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Father. They are two separate being.

plappville:


Ok. But you should know that God was never seen. Scripture says so.

plappville:


You are very correct. The angel of the Lord is Jesus. But i am not agree this same angel of the lord is God the Father of Jesus.

Richirich713:


Yes I believe jesus is Yahweh and definitely can be called Yahweh or God cuz i believe Yahweh is a trinity.

But Yahweh was called a man in the old testament by abraham

No not separate beings , jesus not being the father or the father not being the son doesn't mean they are separated beings, u I believe don't believe the father is the holy spirit, by u would never say the spirit is distance or separate from the father.

We only use terms like "person" or "agent " Because we have not better words to describe the trinity,

Also They are described in Scripture using terms like love, anger, speaking, knowing, deciding and so on, words like ‘attributes’ or ‘states we don't really use cuz it's seems limited.

Richirich713:

Scriptures also says many people saw God / Yahweh. How do u explain that if u believe no one has seen the Father?

I never said he was, jesus is not the father, that's what any Trinitarian will tell u.

plappville:


If you say JESUS is Yahweh and you say again that JESUS is not the Father. Is this not a confusion?

plappville:

According to the Bible, nobody has ever seen the Father, except the Son and the angels. That the bible always refers to God using male pronouns doesn't mean God is a physical male/man. The Bible does address this question through a number of different statements about the nature of God and what He is like. Jesus said that "God is spirit." Although not defined extensively in the Bible, a spirit is an entity that has no physical body. After CHRIST resurrection, He told His disciples that He had returned in bodily form, saying, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." If God is a spirit as the bible says, and a spirit has no flesh or bones, then God cannot be male in physical form. God is not a man, since He is not a physical, but a spiritual, being.

plappville:


God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19)

plappville:



See all the confusion and stress you displayed in trying to explain the trinity. .

plappville:


You still dont trust these scriptures when they told you no one. It means no man. No prophet. If you say men saw "THE FATHER OF JESUS " Then you do not trust the bible. Men saw JESUS. The angel of the LORD. NOT his FATHER.

plappville:



So are there two YAHWEH? Because the FATHER IS YAHWEH. And you said Jesus is not the FATHER. And also said JESUS is YAHWEH. .. : D

Richirich713:


No cuz Yahweh is a trinity.

U said scripture never called God a man, I responded by showing abraham did call Yahweh a man when Yahweh appeared to him.

" The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby" (Gen 18:1-2)

But in no way did I say God was really human by nature when he appeared to Abraham in human form, it's a manifestation, just like the angels do when they appear in human form.

Also does the bible ever say God cannot reveal himself by making his word became flesh.



The above does not say that God cannot become a man or that God cannot appear in human form because He doesn’t lie.

Also Clearly the above is not referring to God nature, it's whole point is focused on God not lying nd repenting like men.

Wud it make sense for me to say this:

1) God is not someone who lies
2) God is not someone who repents
3) Therefore God cannot be someone or a “someone”

In the same way the following verses don't speak about God being a man or not by nature.

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)

"The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war, he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." (Isaiah 42:13)




God is infinitely complex, it not easy for humans to explain certain things about him.

Richirich713:


I won't ignore one and stick with the other, I accept both. Scripture makes it clear Yahweh appeared to people in the old testament and they saw him.

Trust all scripture is wat one should do. Do u want people to reject the OT verses which says people saw Yahweh?

Yahweh is a trinity, Jesus and the father are one in unity, jesus or the father can be called Yahweh because of this.

U urself said Jesus was called Yahweh in the Old testament, prophets don't called someone Yahweh and tell others they saw Yahweh unless they really did.

Shouldn't we trust the scriptures wen it says jesus was called Yahweh and God ?

plappville:

What the bible never teaches. You are boldly saying it. God is a trinity. What if you are wrong?


Maybe you will also claim to be God according to theae verses. Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?"God is not a man in anyway. GOd Appeared to Abraham three men. Also means God is three men umm? Anyway, its your belief. We are all entire to what we believe. I will no longer continue in this discussion. ONLY God knows the birth of the trinity doctrine has a date. It was raised from the depth of Hell. The apostles never taught us One God in Three Person. Heal O Israel the Lord our God our lord is One. Not Three.

plappville:

When it says God cannot be seen. Why you saying he was seen. Are you not contradicting The bible? You left this verse and accept others to confirm He was seen. Itell you they saw Jesus because i trust God when he says no one can see him and live. And i know that Jesus is not the Father. So none has ever seen the Father. No man.

plappville:

Should u trust the bible when it says No man can see God and live? am through with this thread. It was nice sharing what we know. Thanks so much for all the links you gave. Even though they didnt convinced me.
GOD bless you.

Richirich713:



"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known"
(John 1:18)

The above says the father was not seen, when people say they saw God they saw the Son Who is himself God.

I accept both, people can't see the father but they can see the Son who is himself God by essence.

I don't understand how u can say u trust scripture but ignore the old testament at the same time.

Thanks It was nice discussing with u too, God bless.

Richirich713:


Im not the one who says their is gods and the God, it's jw who believe in lesser gods.

U still don't get it, u said the bible never called God a man, I showed u a verse where the bible did, I was just proving a point, that God did manifest himself in human form in the old testament.

"Heal O Israel the Lord our God our lord is One"

Against this supports the trinity, the hebrew word for one here is not about absolute singularity, it's about being one in unity. In fact the absolute hebrew were for one is never used for God, it's always echad which is about being one in unity.

Which is exactly what the trinity teaches, tri-unity

For even if there are so called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords", yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Corinthians 8:4-6

"Heal O Israel the Lord our God our lord is One"

Paul rearranges the septuagint Greek, to display the shema with the father and the Son displaying the unity.

Evens John 1:1 confirms that Jesus is one in unity with the father.

malvisguy212:
In the Gospels, a rich, young man approached Jesus and said to him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus gave the infamous reply,“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” This story is
found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke; critics of Jesus’ claims to deity often use it as ammunition in their case for a non-
divine Jesus. It seems, they argue, that
Jesus is denying deity here by refusing
the title ‘GOOD’ as it is something reserved solely for God. I contend that even a surface-level reading of this narrative does not even remotely support that conclusion.
I don’t see how Jesus’ clarification of
God’s nature is equivalent to him
denying deity. This is akin to someone
coming to me and calling me, “Dr. Paul.” I respond by saying, “Why do you call me
doctor? No man can be a doctor, only he
who holds a doctorate.”

I can either mean one of two things:

1. No one can be a doctor unless he
holds a doctorate.
2. I do not hold a doctorate.
3. Therefore, I am not a doctor.


or…

1. No one can be a doctor unless he
holds a doctorate.
2. I hold a doctorate.
3. Therefore, I am a doctor.

By asking “Why do you call me doctor?”,
am I denying my title? Of course not. I
am simply clarifying what the title
means. I am neither validating nor
rejecting the title. In any case, I don’t
have a doctorate (yet!) but the point still
stands.

You can see how such reasoning is
completely absurd, and yet this is what
we see when critics use Jesus’ words in
this passage to try to show his non deity. Having said all of that, let’s have another look at what Jesus said in this passage.

He only said two statements:

1. Why do you call me good?
2. No one is good except God

The only piece of information that Jesus
gave is this: No one is good but God.
There are 2 ways to understand his
statement:

1. Only God is good.
2. I am not good.
3. Therefore, I am not God.

or

1. Only God is good.
2. I am good.
3. Therefore, I am God.

In this specific instance, from these
words alone, Jesus does make known to
us which of these he meant. It is both
ignorant and presumptive of anyone to
use this passage, alone, to argue for
Jesus’ non-deity. Why should the first
reading be the desirable one over the
second reading? Jesus’ statement that
only God is good does not, itself, tell us
whether he was affirming or denying
being God.

But if we keep reading, we find that
Jesus sheds some light on what he
meant. Jesus answers the man’s original
question about obtaining eternal life
with this“You know the commandments:

‘You shall not murder, you shall not
commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.'”

The man responds :”Teacher, I have kept all of these since I was a boy.”

Then Jesus finishes with: “One thing you
lack. Go, sell everything you have then
come, follow me.”

To summarize: In response to the man’s
question, “What must I do to gain eternal life?”, Jesus responds by telling him to
follow the commandments. But which
commandments does Jesus list?
Notice that Jesus only lists the
commandments that dealt with civil
affairs. The Ten Commandments of
Moses were divided into 2 parts: Laws on
dealing with God and Laws on dealing
with others. Respectively, these were the
moral and civil laws. Jesus names the
civil law for the young man and the
young man responds like any good Jew
would, These I have kept since I was
young.” The man was doing great on
keeping the civil law, but not so much
with the moral law. Instead of then
quoting the first four commandments to
the young man,the commandments that
dealt with man’s relationship with God, Jesus told the young man, “Sell your
possessions and follow me.” In other
words, “Your god is your money. Get rid
of that and follow me.” Jesus is equating
obeying the moral law with following
himself. The manner in which men can
obtain eternal life is by getting rid of the
false gods in their lives and following
Jesus , replacing them with him!
This claim is monumental! And it gives us
an answer to our initial dilemma. Did
Jesus deny or affirm his deity in asking,
“Why do you call me good?” I think the
answer is clear in light of the rest of that
conversation with the young man. Jesus
equated following himself with keeping
the moral law and obeying the
commandments that governed man’s
relationship with God. Thus, in bringing
up this passage as ammunition for a
non-divine Jesus, the critic shoots
himself in the foot by bringing to the
table a text in which Jesus clearly claims
deity.

malvisguy212:

1. Jesus has two natures, He is God
and man.
2. Each nature is full and complete ,
He is fully God and fully man.
3. Each nature remains distinct.
4. Christ is only one Person.
5. Things that are true of only one
nature are nonetheless true of the
Person of Christ.that is y he called himself son if God and son if man. I like d way explain this. but I have one question for u. since d lord Jesus. christ have God as a Father, should we as followers of d lord Jesus christ, pray in d name of d Father or God

Jesus is a man. A man who was possessed by God.