samted:


you believe what you believe. why don't u let others believe what they will

oglalasioux:


Shekau believe he will die and go to heaven to marry 70 virgins. That's his business. I can't interfere with his belief. But when he insists that he must bomb innocent people who are minding their business to achieve that I don't think it's his business anyone. It becomes OUR business.

Likewise if my parents want to worship in any church it's their business. It doesn't concern me. But when they want to use our family house to 'sow seed' for the man of God, that too becomes OUR business.

So that's why I won't let others believe what they believe. Thanks.

samted:


your argument is against christians and their belief in creation. let them believe what they believe. join the fight against boko haram if you must or wrestle your folks if you wish. just don't insult the beliefs of another man when it clearly doesn't affect you.

oglalasioux:


Let me put it this way;

Christians believing in the bible is ok. No problem. But when the same bible teaches that everything happens because God ordained it to happen so then there is a problem. It has made Africans lazy and superstitious to the level of degradation. It's affecting us all so it's everybody's business.

Nubian113:
I see God thanks to my hubby ever night so who I gonna call... #Oooooh nothing

sonOfLucifer:

sonOfLucifer:
In the beginning was God.

And he got bored because the world was void. God knew not how he came. He had always existed. He is, was and is.

He couldn't die, so he couldn't be said to be alive. He was. He just was.

At some point, a thought came into his head. Now one can't say where this thought came from. Or if this thought gave him a sense of purpose. But it was a good thought.

So he spoke. And there was light. And with that light, he saw lots of darkness. And space, lots of space. The kind of space that will put a smile on an Ikwerre man's face.

So off to work he set. A planet here and a planet there. The world was his creative playground. All he had to do was speak and it became. The original talk and do.

plaetton:


Let me come in here to help you.

You see, the problem that hinders your thinking is the obsession with the word " created ".
This is your legacy from Sunday school, when you were forced-fed with magical thinking long before you began to articulate your own thoughts.

No atheist, no scientist tell you that any think was created. The laws of physics that operate throughout the universe teach us that it is " Processes" that involve electromagnetic energy that evolves the universe.

" Creation" simply connotes magic, pulling a rabbit( in this case, a universe) out of one's axss.

Acknowledge where you are coming from, and save yourself this unnecessary, illogical and silly rigmarolling.

You are thinking in magical terms.
The scientific community are thinking in rational terms.

Are you smart enough to spot the difference?

Richirich713:




Plz stop mixing atheism with science, cuz trust me when I say "Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator".

So plz stop trying to act as they one and the same cuz they ain't.

And how is the universe "evolving" literally out of "nothing" not magic?

Last time I check the rabbit hat trick, it's called a magic trick due to the fact that there was "nothing" in the hat" then suddenly the magician pull a "rabbit out of nothing". The atheist has just improved the magic by suggesting there's no magician, nothing just did it on its own.

Universe evolves from nothing? Randomly nd unintelligently ? Matter suddenly becomes "alive" and "conscious" ? I'm not sure how this ain't magic.

plaetton:


That's my point sir.
It is too difficult, too mentally tasking for you to understand the complex Processes of matter and the universe.
That is not the fault of any atheist.

Richirich713:


It's maybe too mentally challenging for u to realize matter doesn't just evolve into conscious.

sonOfLucifer:

Yeah, I feel you. It's much easier to conclude a different 'mystery' caused the original mystery.

lanre316:


I just admire how you ignored the trolls.

johnydon22:

The problem is what is eternal? Low quantum energized particles? simpler elements or low frequency of energy? or a humanoid?

johnydon22:

For goodness sake nobody ever is arguing the universe came from nothing... That notion is always the fantasy you all swim in..

More over in physics "Nothing" means the lowest level of energy frequency..

johnydon22:

It is always funny when people with no basic knowledge in astronomy come out to claim the universe full of random chaotic events is designed and fined tuned..

now lets see an example to your words: Point out to us the things that makes you think the universe is fine tuned and designed.. not just saying it

Please this claim of fine tune is yet your delusion.. Nobody with a basic knowledge of astronomy will ever claim precision in the universe.

Please point out to us the fine tuning you know lets see how

johnydon22:

Oh yes and in science that thing is a "Singularity" not a humanoid..

johnydon22:

Again, the events in the universe is one that spells randomness more than anything..

Now point out to us the things that made you say it is intelligent?

sonOfLucifer:

Yeah, I feel you. It's much easier to conclude a different 'mystery' caused the original mystery.

Richirich713:


Whatever it is it can't be a substance we know of in the universe since that would mean it's made of contingent substances. It also has to be independent space-time since that is also finite.

And what does literally nothing mean? When a atheists tells me the universe evolved from literally from nothing?

I guess nobody here has basic knowledge of astronomy or physics.

"The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life". Hawking (physicist and cosmologist) -Atheist

"Wherever physicists look, they see examples of fine-tuning" Martin Rees (cosmologist and astrophysicist) -Atheist

"If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features are surprising and unlikely" David Deutch (physicist) Atheist

What are u getting at? R suggesting the universe is eternal?

We must be very lucky people, if the cosmological constant was off by a hair we wouldn't be here. If the gravitational constant was off by just a hair we wouldn't be here.
It has been calculated that if the value of even one of the fundamental constants—the speed of light or the mass of an electron, for instance—had been to the slightest degree different, then no planet capable of permitting the evolution of human life could have formed.
It's as if the universe knew we were coming.
"The more I examine the universe and study the details of its architecture,” writes physicist Freeman Dyson, “the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense knew we were coming"

Richirich713:


"Think for a minute of a marble table in front of you. Do you think that, given a trillion years or infinite time, this table could suddenly or gradually become conscious, aware of its surroundings, aware of its identity the way you are? " Anthony Flew

It's maybe too mentally challenging for u to realize matter doesn't just evolve into conscious.

johnydon22:
I think i have already given you the scientific answer to that.. "Singularity" as a matter of fact in the big bang cosmology is the starting point of space/time..

johnydon22:
That my dear friend is between you and any individual that you discuss that with..

johnydon22:

And you just confirmed it..

I asked for examples of a precise natural manifestation that isn't random and i get quotes.. seriously?

johnydon22:
[s][You couldn't pin point maybe some phenomenons out there, you could pin point how the whole universe is one peaceful, serene place?

Don't you see the desert? Can't you see how calm and fine-tuned it is.. Can't you see the sand looks like wave waters, drawn lines parallel like a fine work of some invisible artist..

But oh sir behind that artistic work of a desertic sand dune is not an invisible artist. But a random chaotic event of blowing Wind on Sand[/s]

johnydon22:

Next time don't rush to pull out quotes you don't even understand..

johnydon22:

I asked for examples and got quote..wow

johnydon22:

Am i supposed to teach you what a singularity is?

johnydon22:

[s]Again here we go more quotes.

If actually you had an idea on the cosmological constant was supposed to negate gravitational attraction and ensure a universe that is static in nature but as a matter of fact the universal expansion is accelerating showing the universe is even more random than we think.

Lets see another chance: Tell me the universal cosmological constant not just google up quotes[/s]..

You see? You proposed a designed intelligent universe only to come up with the observed universal constants.

johnydon22:
[s]
[s]Look more into astronomy, the universe is in no way a serene precise entity but rather a very chaotic random one and from these chaotic interactions comes resulting outcomes..

So why not try again and come up with actual examples[/s] ... and oh since you love Hawkins so much..

He actually is a Gnostic Atheist, the type that maintain There is no God and none necessary...

And you just proved me right... Stop the quotes and actually pull of some Astrophysics ..

johnydon22:
More quotes and a logical mockery..

Anthony flew forgot that table actually is made from wood which is taken from a tree which is a living organism that is actually aware of photo sensitivity in it's environment....

johnydon22:

Actually it is more challenging for you though to understand that it can and you are a typical example of a conscious matter.

johnydon22:

Next time tell Anthony Flew the difference between a table and a tree which is Biological metabolism.. [s]Once this action ceases (biological metabolism) there can never be a consciousness..

A table is made from an already DEAD tree so its like asking me if a dead human corpse will turn into a baby..

Consciousness is a product of a living entity (An entity with metabolical activities) not the other way round[/s]..

Richirich713:

Johnny the universe is finite nd contingent, whatever cuz the big bang was independent of space-time and cannot be any substance in the universe we know of.

Dear friend u seem to be the one who doesn't understand that, when u quote someone talking to some1 else make sure u remember he was talking to some1 else and not u.

Don't just rush in the discussion nd assume no atheist believes the world came from literally nothing.

No I just ignored u and decided to give u quotes from Atheist physicists to show u what I'm arguing for, namely the fine-tuning argument. I made that pretty clear when I brought up the precision of the of the fundamental constants of the universe at the end of my post.

This what happens when u jump into discussions without reading. This got nothing to do on what I was previously arguing for. It was so obvious I was arguing for intelligent design while rejecting physical necessity and mocking those who hold on to chance.

Next time plz stick to what Richirich713 is arguing for.

Quotes are good especially if the person has a PHD on what is being discussed. So it's good to provide some quotes to support ones claim.

I know atheists on nairaland don't look at what the experts have to say, and won't dare quote historical scholars to support their claims that Jesus was created at the council of nicea. But that's for another topic.

All I want to know is to do u consider the universe eternal or not?

Again you not getting the argument for intelligent design. U ain't getting why theists or even deists even use the teleologicial argument. It was probably the 1st argument u heard for the existence nd it's the most basic nd popular argument for God.

When we observe the universe we realize that several fundamental constants need to have extremely precise values for the universe to exist or support life, if 1 of these constants were off by just a hair the universe wouldn't be able to support life or even exist. This is the fine tuning I'm talking about.

Either we were just extremely lucky or the universe was just finely tune due to physical necessity.

Lol how did I prove u right? I quote a few physicists suddenly means I agree with everything they believe. In fact I purposely quoted hawking since he is a Atheist , just like i quoted the other 2 atheists.
U need to look up fine-tuning argument. In fact here u go :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe
Cheers

Richirich713:


Man U are on a strawman role 2night.


"Think for a minute of a marble table in front of you. Do you think that, given a trillion years or infinite time, this table could suddenly or gradually become conscious, aware of its surroundings, aware of its identity the way you are? " Anthony Flew

Where does he say wooden table?

So according to atheists a marble table could become conscious given the right amount of time.

Anthony wasn't talking about wooden tables so no 1 needs to correct him, it's just u who needs to be corrected.

johnydon22:
Still falls to the same logical blunder because a marble being a product of glass, sand, clay, steel in extreme heat is a product of substances rid of normal chemical and biological activities..
[/b]

johnydon22:

[i]Am sure even you can answer that... You are matter and you are conscious and these awareness boils down to neuroperceptibility

johnydon22:

Here we go, you will soon say i dabble into discussions without checking.. Now you have once again stereotyped from something i have never seen even one atheist say..


Please show us the atheist..

johnydon22:

Secondly we are not the ones that think Life came from Sands being molded and breathed into

johnydon22:

And Anthony made as much logical blunder as he would have if it were wooden tables

Richirich713:


But it ain't alive nor conscious and that's the whole point of the question. No matter how u try to put it, a marble table can never become conscious.

If I were an Atheist I wouldn't have a answer.

I'm talking to him right now, u clearing defending the possibility of a marble table becoming conscious.

And if u not defending this view why haven't u given a firm "no" yet?

No we theists think life came from a eternal conscious intelligent being.

He didn't make a logical blunder u just saying he did since u don't have a answer to his question. Or maybe u do but u just won't say it.

johnydon22:
[b]And here goes more logical blunder.. A marble cannot produce light either because it lacks the interactive values necessary.. (So going by your convoluted logic since a Marble which is matter can't produce light every other matter can't.. )

Now you will realize how ridiculous and logically nonsensical it is to equate an artificially manipulate matter (marble) to every other matter abound..

But surely enough You are matter and you are conscious shows matter actually can be conscious.. That marble (artificial manipulation as a matter of fact) cannot get conscious doesn't equate such state with every matter..

So here is a logical blunder stemming from stereotypes.. Since marbles can't get conscious then all matters can't... Hear your logic huh?

This is what happens when you quote other people's idea even absurd ones
You don't really need to be because you are Matter
Cognitive dissonance at it's peak.. I actually was the one showing you how ridiculous it was to equate a marble (inanimate object) with a matabolic entity that can birth consciousness. [/b]

johnydon22:

Now show me where i defended that marble can turn conscious please quote that post... If you can't this will be your first lie

johnydon22:

I am sure i am the one negating it here and showing you how ridiculous it is to even spew that, it is a mockery of logic

This is it... Please can't you give us the atheist that told you Marble table can get conscious...

If you can't it shows how well you can lie...this will be the 2nd

johnydon22:

An eternal conscious being that is complex but somehow doesn't need to be designed as a matter of fact.. lmao..

johnydon22:

Trying to explain a complex manifestation with an even more complex one..

[s]Do not try to deviate from your Christian ideas.. we all know Christian theology proposes man moulded from sand.. That even proposes inanimate objects getting conscious at a even shorter amount of time [/s]

johnydon22:

You may read it up again, do i expect you to know it was a logical blunder when you are romancing the quote?

samted:


your argument is against christians and their belief in creation. let them believe what they believe. join the fight against boko haram if you must or wrestle your folks if you wish. just don't insult the beliefs of another man when it clearly doesn't affect you.

Richirich713:

Again regardless how u trying to put it, it's still illogical. Nd Flew wasn't just talking about marble.
As he clearly says below:

"It is simply inconceivable that this would or could happen. And the same goes for any kind of matter. Once you understand the nature of matter, of mass-energy, you realize that, by its very nature, it could never become “aware,” never “think,” never say “I.” But the atheist position is that, at some point in the history of the universe, the impossible and the inconceivable took place. Undifferentiated matter (here we include energy), at some point, became “alive,” then conscious, then conceptually proficient, then an “I.” But returning to our table, we see why this is simply laughable. The table has none of the properties of being conscious and, given infinite time, it cannot “acquire” such properties" Anthony Flew

Hahahahahaha now we are shifting from Marble are we? . Isn't remarkable how you are now changing quotes? Isn't remarkable how you are now shifting the goal from Marble?

One thing both you and Andrew Flew what it is should understand: There are properties in each atom that makes them compatible for a particular reaction, once an atom looses such properties it is certainly impossible for it reaching such specified state.

So when Andrew Flew wants to ask a question worth answering he should have pointed at something with active biological properties but No he knew if he did the question was dead on arrival so he had to use an artificial object..

Logical blunder never go cheaper

1st u lied about the wooden table just to avoid answering the question, then u still went on to twist it the best u can still not to answer the question.

That itself shows u were defending the position, it's only now u that u agree that the marble table can never became conscious.

By not answering directly I take is to defend the view especially if someone start twisting the question and lying by claiming it's about a wooden table.

We searching for the best explanation of the universe complexity and fine tuning,not go into a infinite regress of trying to explain the explanation of the explanation, then the explanation of the explanation then.....

This is the happens when u read Richard Dawkins advice without looking what the real Philosophers have to say.

Aah I See if a Atheist can't answer a simple question and is done twisting it, he then out of desperation tries to change to the topic to Christianity, just like u did earlier when u suddenly started talking about the bible.

The only reason I even answered the question was not to act like a coward by answering indirectly then attack strawmans. U did the same thing in your morality thread by bringing up Islam nd Christianity.

Evens worst is the Christian view is nothing similar to the atheist, the man received conscious from a conscious and intelligent being.

Thanx 4 advice.

plaetton:


Hypocrite.
So, you don't like others criticizing your beliefs ?

Christianity, by it's very nature, is anchored upon and thrives by criticizing, mocking and damning all belief systems that do not involve Jesus and the bible.

In this era, you should always expect a pushback whenever you try to peddle silly Lethal mythologies in a public forum.

johnydon22:
Oh we back at this? .. I thought i gave a scientific name for such called "Singularity" in big bang cosmology is an infinite dense and hot point which is the cause of space/time, atomic and sub-atomic particles

johnydon22:

And you stereotyped atheists by assuming because One thinks "Nothing" then all thinks "Nothing" ... When you have discussions with such you maintain their very personality in reference to their world view not stereotype the rest

johnydon22:


I think it shouldn't have been clear that examples are not synonymous to quotes that don't even support your proposition of intelligent design

johnydon22:

Wasn't that what that post actually addresses? That you find something to be supposedly designed doesn't mean it was..

johnydon22:

Wasn't it why i gave the desert analogy? Who wouldn't say an invisible artist drew it, surely it was drawn straight from the mind of a conscious entity..

And to show you the serenity and precise depiction of some natural occurrence doesn't not connote design but rather pays homage to the interacting values.

johnydon22:

Hell Yes that's exactly what i did

johnydon22:

Entirely your business with them

johnydon22:
Here we go...

johnydon22:

Who says life cannot emerge if there is a slight change in fundamental constants.. "Life as regards carbon based"

johnydon22:

Yet again the universe is not entirely conducive for life because there are several parts of the universe where the gravitational anomalies can rapture any complex molecule or extreme radiation makes it impossible.. was this also part of the design?

More like waking up and finding yourself in the Goldilock zone of the solar system and state it was specifically designed..

johnydon22:

Even an amoeba waking up in any random puddle out there would surely think the puddle was designed for it.

It just has the right temperature, right texture and wow the water is just fresh just as i like it..

Somewhere else deep in the cold glaciers also thrives micro-organisms fully adaptive to such extreme condition and same goes to the extremely hot volcanoes.

These life forms would also think these conditions were designed for life but under such conditions it is impossible for a human-life to thrive.

The universe was not designed for life, rather possible life forms evolved to suit it's present condition..

samted:


Criticism is different from outright slander and abuses my friend. Saying that a religion is a sham or its followers are stupid is not criticism. Insulting something or someone because you hold different beliefs is a sign of gross ignorance. Check yourself.

johnydon22:

Isn't this exactly same thing you lot do to other beliefs and religion and then hypocritically begs for yours to be exempted from such treatment..

Some even go as far as carrying out acts of terrorism by burning other people's place of worship, burning their own holy relics what other slander can get worse than that..