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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / What Is Nature Exactly? (29818 Views)
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Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 3:05pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Why is he called a magician if he has no magic powers . Magic is an action performed |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by plaetton: 3:34pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: I have already said it, Merlin,.. Sorry, I mean J.K Rowling's. K for Kingebukasblog. You are the best author and marketing guru for the Toothfairy. You should seriously consider a career in writing fairy Tales. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 4:49pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
plaetton: Actually , some atheists like Richard Dawkins took your advice |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by UyiIredia(m): 5:12pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: Lol. U should add plaetton, Dawkins na part 1 for im side. With all his nonsense talk of random chaos he takes the cake. 1 Like |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by plaetton: 5:15pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
UyiIredia: Thanks for the compliment, Uyi. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 5:20pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
UyiIredia: chai |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 5:53pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: I don't believe you can say that is the atheist's position, more like the Materialist's position. For instance, Buddhists and Jains are Atheist but they believe that 'nature' and all phenomena (including deities) are products of consciousness. But that is by the by. What I really want to get to is… How are you certain that nature can't produce consciousness (1), Intelligence (2), and Emotions (3)? I'm not disputing your belief, I just want to know how you arrived at it with such certainty. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 5:58pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: It doesn't matter what he is called. I presumed that The magician existed before he even began performing any acts of magic. Can we argue that God only came into being when he started to create the universe? ie. He is defined by his creative act, but not only that but His whole existence depends on his being a creator. 3 Likes |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 6:15pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
PastorAIO: No , God has always been around even before the genesis of the universe - He is eternal . God is not only defined by his creative acts . He is a Judge , Father , Protector , Avenger etc . |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Nobody: 6:17pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija:Lol. Unbelievable. You still have no idea what atheism is. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Nobody: 6:19pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija:He is Superman. He is my hero. And one day, he will come and rescue me from this evil world to Universe called heaven. I know it's true. My favorite fairy tale told me so. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 6:49pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Well an atheist is a non believer in the existence of gods (including creator gods ) , so if the universe wasn't created by someone ( a conscious creator ) then everything made itself - which is impossible and unprovable . Consciousness is basically about self awareness . Self then awareness , so its an erroneous belief that everything is a product of self awareness . An entity (self ) then awareness . Since God is eternal , He has always been aware of Himself . But that is by the by. What I really want to get to is… 1. Actually , its simple for me . Since God exists (through my experience ) then nature can't bring produce any of the above . 2. But logically , mind births mind like I said . How is this so ? An ALL who has always known what it means to be intelligent , conscious , and have emotions - his response to good and evil - should pass down these attributes. This is best explained in robotics , we have humanoid robots who are not conscious . And how do we know they are not conscious because they do not exhibit it , how do we know they are intelligent , it is given to them by us and is exhibited by these robots and then agreed that they are intelligent e. g Turin Test . Same with emotions . God created us and then knew we are indeed conscious (though we now exhibit it and know we are ) , intelligent , and have emotions . Emotions must need consciousness , robots are intelligent but are not conscious . The struggle to make robots conscious alone proves that its an attribute that has to be passed on . Produce robots first , then make them conscious But for humans we need to be conscious to exhibit intelligence and show our emotions - our responses as a result of being self aware . |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Nobody: 6:54pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 6:58pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
sonOfLucifer: Assumptions are not proof . Dont get it twisted |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Nobody: 6:59pm On Mar 21, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija:I just enjoy reading your strong arguments. Keep posting. 1 Like |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Kay17: 6:02am On Mar 23, 2016 |
@kingebukanaija This is best explained in robotics , we have humanoid robots who are not conscious . And how do we know they are not conscious because they do not exhibit it , how do we know they are intelligent , it is given to them by us and is exhibited by these robots and then agreed that they are intelligent e. g Turin Test . Same with emotions . Are you aware of Qualia? |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 7:40am On Mar 23, 2016 |
Kay17: Nope ... wikipedia's explanation is vague . Can you explain ? |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 8:23am On Mar 23, 2016 |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 11:52am On Mar 23, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: These are all still acts. What is a judge without anything to judge. What is a protector without anything to protect. What is an avenger without anything to avenge. All your descriptions of God are based on the assumption that there are something else to which he bears these relations and attributes. Therefore before he created anything there can be nothing for him to be 'judge, father, protector, avenger' to. Therefore you cannot give him any meaningful description or attributes. To all intents and purposes you cannot say he exists. 1 Like |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 12:28pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: I see that you statement of 'impossible and unprovable' has already drawn some attention. If God is self creating then why can't anything else be self creating? If God is, rather than self creating, eternally existent then why can't anything else be eternally existent? If proving such things are 'impossible and unprovable' on what do you rest your claims that such is the case with God? If God, an eternally existent being, why can we not presume that there must be other eternally existent beings besides him? Consciousness is basically about self awareness . Self then awareness , so its an erroneous belief that everything is a product of self awareness . An entity (self ) then awareness . Since God is eternal , He has always been aware of Himself . What if the act of consciousness cannot be distinguished from the being of consciousness? Ie. that Pure consciousness is the consciousness of Being conscious. If you want to separate the self from it's awareness of itself then the question arises, where did the awareness come from and when did it arise? if the awareness is as eternal as the 'self' then where does the distinction come in.
How does God's existence mandate that any of the above cannot happen? After all Nature has produced many things. Man himself has produced Robotics which you yourself have agreed show intelligence.
I don't quite follow. Are you saying that our minds are birthed from God's mind and that is how and why we have the attribute of consciousness?
What are the traits that one should look for if we want to determine if a robot, or anything for that matter, is conscious? I had no idea that it were possible to exhibit consciousness. Can you also give us an example of where Robots exhibited intelligence? I don't think we birthed the intelligence of Robots from our minds which is what you seem to be saying when you say that 'Mind births mind'. Again, please how is our consciousness exhibited? What do we do that shows that we are conscious beings, while other parts of creation is not conscious? I hope you've noticed that all this while I've avoided asking for a definition of what you mean by consciousness, intelligence, and emotions. I've done so in order to not kill the flow because I've noticed that on nairaland nothing kills the thread more than asking people to define what they mean when they use certain terms. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Joshthefirst(m): 6:45pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
PastorAIO:Those descriptions of judge, avenger, and protector are only relative to his creation. PastorAIO:God is not self creating. Your questions are meaningless, because you reject the understanding of the very nature of God or the universe. God is basically the conscious cause. He is eternal. He is boundless. 'Infinity is contained in Him'. Me: I mean he is beyond everything and beyond everywhere. PastorAIO:Because, eternal existence by its very definition envelopes everything. Eternally existent means/is continually present, and enveloping and filling all parts of reality...actually creation is contained in eternal existence, so more precisely, all parts of reality, all parts of creation, are enveloped and contained in Him. It means your presence and consciousness is everywhere and pervades every place. This does not leave room for anything else. If there was another being that was eternally existent, they wouldn't differ in any way. They would be the same being. I have logically shown(proved) our propositions. Thank you. What I have just said is captured in a way in a verse of the bible. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The word is eternally existent. God is eternally existent. The word was with God, The word was God. Selah PastorAIO:It seems you favor specificity and correlation in the definition of words and details. I do too. By consciousness, we mean sentience, self awareness in all the depth of feeling and emotion and communication and creativity. Intelligence is only an integrate of this knowledge of existence and living. It is hard to define what makes us living souls. Although we all know it in our minds, it is difficult to encompass in a few words, because it is bigger than our communication. We can only mostly define the attributes of sentience as sentience. We are animate and alive, and independent. No other organism has shown our complexity and our emotions and awareness and creativity and the animation of our communication and life, because they are not capable of doing so. We have MIND. Robots do not. animals do not. Mind is not a function of material evolution(do you dispute this?). Mind begets mind. Only an eternal mind is capable of drawing and painting us and bringing us into existence. Our sentience was birthed by one higher than us. And our awareness was once a plan in his own mind before he moved forth to execute. Our 'aliveness' is not ours, but his. We don't have capacity to give anything mind, because there is and can only be one mind giver. As I have shown in previous explanations. Robots are only functional material aggregates that run by algorithm. We are much more. PastorAIO:And I hope you realize that your questions are so convoluted that I cannot possibly have addressed them all in this single reply. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Joshthefirst(m): 6:59pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
plaetton:Urine and faeces are also complex functional systems whose origins are underpinned by random chaotic events |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 7:01pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Is Joshthefirst the same as KingEbukasblog. I wasn't aware. Okay, I'll come back and proceed as if they were the same person and respond to this later this evening. Joshthefirst: |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by plaetton: 7:03pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Joshthefirst: Why do things that are beyond your understanding vex you so much ? 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Joshthefirst(m): 7:03pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
plaetton:And you remain hypocritical in your perception of nature and the universe |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by Joshthefirst(m): 7:06pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
PastorAIO:We are not the same person. I only gave a reply. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 7:16pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
PastorAIO: You are talking like its a theory or a hypothetical model of a creator . We are talking of an entity who is existing as we discuss now . God is also a Supreme Being anyway . There is none beside Him , no one greater .
Simple . God is eternal , so are His attributes - they have always been , are , will always be existing with Him . Its illogical to ask where the attributes of an eternal being come from . So consciousness - self awareness - comes from God . How does God's existence mandate that any of the above cannot happen? After all Nature has produced many things. Man himself has produced Robotics which you yourself have agreed show intelligence. God kicked off things . Nature derived the propensity for or to do anything because he designed it that way |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukaNaija: 7:23pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Joshthefirst: |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 7:30pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
PastorAIO: We are different . I think Joshthefirst addressed your post brilliantly . |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 7:37pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Joshthefirst: Well, what attributes of his do you have that are not related to his creation? pray share. God is not self creating. Good to know, from a great authoritative source such as yourself.
First you have to propose an understanding of the very nature of God or the universe before I can reject it. I was going by what you said when you said that it was 'impossible and unprovable' to say that the universe was self creating. I then applied that reasoning to the claims for God. Perhaps my direct questions to your statement sounds meaningless because your initial statements are meaningless.
Right. Have you got any more attributes or does that sum him up?
Where did you get your definition of 'eternal existence'? Okay, so Nothingness is eternally existent. Nothing exists everywhere and envelops everything. In that case, since if another being that was eternally existent wouldn't differ in any way, but be the same thing it follows that your God is NOTHING.
Lol! Okay.
Okay!
yes please.
Let me get this straight. For you you understand consciousness to be self awareness experienced as feelings, emotion, communication and creativity. Then when you integrate this self knowledge with living then that is intelligence. Is this correct?
So what are the attributes of sentience? I didn't ask for any definition of what makes us living souls. Just Consciousness will do for now, thank you.
You are making a lot of claims here without any back up. Many other organisms are animate and alive and show emotions and awareness and creativity and communication. Many Many many other organisms. Why do you say that only humans have MIND and not animals? How do you know that Mind begets mind? Perhaps Mind comes into being spontaneously.
I'm not convinced. You're not even bothering to buttress your claims with an argument.
I asked my questions according to the convolutedness of your propositions. I'm sorry that you've found yourself so intractable. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 7:46pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
KingEbukaNaija: You have presented him like a theory or an hypothetical model. If he is otherwise then present him in an appropriate manner.
Could you tell us what 3 of these eternal attributes are? I take it consciousness is one of them. Please, are you saying that God IS Consciousness? Or God HAS consciousness? I note that you didn't actually respond to what I said, but I'll let it slide.
Again just another claim without any evidence or argument to back it up. |
Re: What Is Nature Exactly? by PastorAIO: 7:47pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog:Oh, I see. But you agree with his response, so it's okay to treat it as if it's your position. |
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