So far no atheist has really answered MrAnony1's question.

PastorAIO:


You have presented him like a theory or an hypothetical model. If he is otherwise then present him in an appropriate manner.

You are the one doing so . Let me show you

If God is self creating then why can't anything else be self creating?

If God is, rather than self creating, eternally existent then why can't anything else be eternally existent?

If proving such things are 'impossible and unprovable' on what do you rest your claims that such is the case with God?

If God, an eternally existent being, why can we not presume that there must be other eternally existent beings besides him?

The persistent use of the word "if" proves you are the one presenting God like He is an assumption or hypothetical model of a creator

Could you tell us what 3 of these eternal attributes are?

I take it consciousness is one of them. Please, are you saying that God IS Consciousness? Or God HAS consciousness?

God has consciousness

I note that you didn't actually respond to what I said, but I'll let it slide.

Most of the answers to your questions can be deduced from that response

Again just another claim without any evidence or argument to back it up.

It does not matter how you see it . I already told you that I know God exists through my experiences . So if you think its a claim ... err I dont know what to tell you

PastorAIO:

Oh, I see. But you agree with his response, so it's okay to treat it as if it's your position.

Yup

UyiIredia:
So far no atheist has really answered MrAnony1's question.

I didn't think that the OP was addressed only to Atheists.

KingEbukaNaija:


You are the one doing so . Let me show you

Your memory, it seems, is short. That list of 'ifs' is a direct response to you post below.

KingEbukaNaija:


Well an atheist is a non believer in the existence of gods (including creator gods ) , so if the universe wasn't created by someone ( a conscious creator ) then everything made itself - which is impossible and unprovable .

You hypothesised and I developed your hypothesising.

The persistent use of the word "if" proves you are the one presenting God like He is an assumption or hypothetical model of a creator

I hope you can now withdraw your allegation.

God has consciousness

Thank you.

Most of the answers to your questions can be deduced from that response

So consciousness is an attribute of God. God is eternal and so consciousness is eternal. So God cannot have created consciousness.

It does not matter how you see it . I already told you that I know God exists through my experiences . So if you think its a claim ... err I dont know what to tell you

You don't have to tell me anything. Just accept that you've made a claim that you fail to back up with any evidence or argument. Finish. You don't have to kill yourself over it.

PastorAIO:


Your memory, it seems, is short. That list of 'ifs' is a direct response to you post below.

Ah ah ... the "if" there was in response to your argument against this :

Atheists believe nature unconsciously and vacuously (randomness and chaos) produced consciousness and intelligence

You hypothesised and I developed your hypothesising.

You misunderstood

I hope you can now withdraw your allegation.

Still stands

Thank you.

You welcome

So consciousness is an attribute of God. God is eternal and so consciousness is eternal. So God cannot have created consciousness.

I know what you are doing , it won't work . Consciousness has always been with God as part of what makes Him who He is . So consciousness being eternal basically means that God has always been aware of Himself .

You don't have to tell me anything. Just accept that you've made a claim that you fail to back up with any evidence or argument. Finish. You don't have to kill yourself over it.

Lol . I am not angry . You guys sef .

KingEbukaNaija:



Ah ah ... the "if" there was in response to your argument against this :

There is no way you can look at it and not call it an hypothetical argument. I was responding to your hypothetical argument by extending it. You falsely accused me of introducing the hypothesising. I thought it was due to a short memory but now I see that it's probably due to dishonesty.

Atheists believe nature unconsciously and vacuously (randomness and chaos) produced consciousness and intelligence

You misunderstood

I understood what you wrote according to semantics of english language. Perhaps you failed to say just what you meant or thought. That is not my fault. I can only go by what you write.

Still stands

I'm not surprised.

I know what you are doing , it won't work . Consciousness has always been with God as part of what makes Him who He is . So consciousness being eternal basically means that God has always been aware of Himself .

What am I doing exactly? I'm just asking questions and trying to follow your reasoning. I understand that you believe that God has alwas been aware of himself, therefore he has always been conscious. I therefore said that God could not have created consciousness. Do you agree with this last statement?

Lol . I am not angry . You guys sef .

I never said you were angry. you made a claim and I pointed out that you've made a claim without evidence to back it up. You then respond with … ' So if you think its a claim' bla blah blah. I just felt that you don't have to put yourself under such pressure. If you don't want to back up your claim that is your prerogative.
But one little question to tie things all together. When you say 'So If you think...' are you hypothesising the fact that you made a claim, or will you use that phrase only when you know for certain that you made the claim. From where I sit I've seen many claims for God that are not hypothesis but 'an entity who is existing as we discuss now ',

UyiIredia:
So far no atheist has really answered MrAnony1's question.

Did you skip my response?

PastorAIO:



What am I doing exactly? I'm just asking questions and trying to follow your reasoning. I understand that you believe that God has alwas been aware of himself, therefore he has always been conscious. I therefore said that God could not have created consciousness. Do you agree with this last statement?

Your ostensible purpose is to follow my reasoning but the real purpose is that you are trying to disassociate consciousness and the entity , God . God did not create himself and is not self existent . So consciousness was not created by God but is what makes Him aware of Himself . He has always been conscious .

Still beats your proposition - Deities are a product of consciousness - because God is eternal .

I never said you were angry. you made a claim and I pointed out that you've made a claim without evidence to back it up. You then respond with … ' So if you think its a claim' bla blah blah. I just felt that you don't have to put yourself under such pressure. If you don't want to back up your claim that is your prerogative.

Lol . And I'm saying its not a claim not even an assertion . Its more of a perspective thing - you see it as a claim and I see it as factual or real

But one little question to tie things all together. When you say 'So If you think...' are you hypothesising the fact that you made a claim, or will you use that phrase only when you know for certain that you made the claim. From where I sit I've seen many claims for God that are not hypothesis but 'an entity who is existing as we discuss now ',

Whatever you are insinuating , there were no claims made here . Claims are refutable . My statements about God are irrefutable .

Weah96:


Did you skip my response?

Oh what he is trying to say is that while others did not answer correctly or evaded the question circumlocutorily yours was not worth paying attention to

KingEbukaNaija:


Your ostensible purpose is to follow my reasoning but the real purpose is that you are trying to disassociate consciousness and the entity , God . God did not create himself and is not self existent . So consciousness was not created by God but is what makes Him aware of Himself . He has always been conscious .

The bolded part was all that I wanted you to clarify. I wasn't trying to disassociate anything. You don't really know my position and if you did that would be the last thing you'd say about me.

Still beats your proposition - Deities are a product of consciousness - because God is eternal .

Did I say that? Or did I say that Buddhism says that? In either case how does it beat the/my proposition.

Lol . And I'm saying its not a claim not even an assertion . Its more of a perspective thing - you see it as a claim and I see it as factual or real

Let us refresh on the meaning of the english word claim:

claim
kleɪm/Submit
verb
1.
state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
"the Prime Minister claimed that he was concerned about Third World debt"
synonyms: assert, declare, profess, maintain, state, hold, affirm, avow, aver, protest, insist, swear, attest; More

A claim is a claim is a claim. It is something that you've stated. A claim that is true is irrefutable. A claim that is false, as yours most likely is, will have the claimant running about foaming at the mouth and making barbed comments to anyone that asks any questions.

I don't suppose you know what a perspective is otherwise you wouldn't have used it for what I think you're trying to say.

Whatever you are insinuating , there were no claims made here . Claims are refutable . My statements about God are irrefutable .

You've made claims. Live with it. All your desperation and denying blatant reality is becoming very irritating. I actually started off taking you a little seriously. "there were no claims made here"? 'There were no claims made here"? "THERE WERE NO CLAIMS MADE HERE"? The only thing that can save you is if you admit that you did not know what the word meant. Then you won't be dismissed as an abysmal liar.

KingEbukaNaija:


Oh what he is trying to say is that while others did not answer correctly or evaded the question circumlocutorily yours was not worth paying attention to

More barbed comments and invectives. How pitiful. How pathetic.

PastorAIO:


More barbed comments and invectives. How pitiful. How pathetic.

That was a joke .

PastorAIO:


The bolded part was all that I wanted you to clarify. I wasn't trying to disassociate anything. You don't really know my position and if you did that would be the last thing you'd say about me.

Its an illogical question . I thought you might have understood by now . Asking if God did not create consciousness is like disassociating that attribute from Him . All his attributes - power , intelligence , consciousness are what makes Him who He is . Will you also ask me if God did not create intelligence and emotions too ?

Did I say that? Or did I say that Buddhism says that? In either case how does it beat the/my proposition.

God is not a product of consciousness .



Let us refresh on the meaning of the english word claim:

A claim is a claim is a claim. It is something that you've stated. A claim that is true is irrefutable. A claim that is false, as yours most likely is, will have the claimant running about foaming at the mouth and making barbed comments to anyone that asks any questions.

I don't suppose you know what a perspective is otherwise you wouldn't have used it for what I think you're trying to say.

You've made claims. Live with it. All your desperation and denying blatant reality is becoming very irritating. I actually started off taking you a little seriously. "there were no claims made here"? 'There were no claims made here"? "THERE WERE NO CLAIMS MADE HERE"? The only thing that can save you is if you admit that you did not know what the word meant. Then you won't be dismissed as an abysmal liar.

You need to understand that I'm a jovial person . Ad hominems for me , are to lighten things if they become too serious .

Brother , its a perspective thing - I still stand by this . The atheists' "There is no God" is also a claim .

By my reasoning , they see it as a fact and I see it as an opinion or claim . I've experienced God , though impalpable no matter how I try to explain .

So last last , "There is no God" and whatever said about it are claims to me and facts to them

Do you now understand ?

KingEbukaNaija:


Oh what he is trying to say is that while others did not answer correctly or evaded the question circumlocutorily yours was not worth paying attention to

You're like the spokesperson for your infinity infinity Jewish god as well as a pro bono mouthpiece on NL.

I would go talk to my god if I were you. Instead of arguing with mortals. Go to your infinity google and talk to it.

Weah96:


You're like the spokesperson for your infinity infinity Jewish god as well as a pro bono mouthpiece on NL.

I would go talk to my god if I were you. Instead of arguing with mortals. Go to your infinity google and talk to it.

...and PastorAIO turns a blind eye to this - such puerile derision . He may have been the one that liked this comment

Pathetic hypocrisy

KingEbukaNaija:


...and PastorAIO turns a blind eye to this - such puerile derision . He may have been the one that liked this comment

Pathetic hypocrisy

Sharrap dia!!! Na me like am...

KingEbukaNaija:


That was a joke .

Bros, it seems that the entire body of your contributions have been a series of jokes.

KingEbukaNaija:

...and PastorAIO turns a blind eye to this - such puerile derision . He may have been the one that liked this comment
Pathetic hypocrisy

Oh, so you weren't joking anymore.

KingEbukaNaija:

Its an illogical question . I thought you might have understood by now . Asking if God did not create consciousness is like disassociating that attribute from Him . All his attributes - power , intelligence , consciousness are what makes Him who He is . Will you also ask me if God did not create intelligence and emotions too ?

So I take it that God did not create power neither, nor intelligence, etc. They are just his attributes. I was going to ask you, some where done the line but I'd have needed some definitions first and it seems you don't think deeply enough about what you say to even bother to define your terms. Maybe I'll come back to it.

KingEbukaNaija:

[b]God is not a product of consciousness .
[/b]Let us refresh on the meaning of the english word claim:

There you have a big fat baseless claim. Just a statement without any argument to back it up. I hope you know the meaning of a claim now.

KingEbukaNaija:


You need to understand that I'm a jovial person . Ad hominems for me , are to lighten things if they become too serious .
Brother , its a perspective thing - I still stand by this . The atheists' "There is no God" is also a claim .
By my reasoning , they see it as a fact and I see it as an opinion or claim . I've experienced God , though impalpable no matter how I try to explain .
So last last , "There is no God" and whatever said about it are claims to me and facts to them
Do you now understand ?

You're a jovial person? When did you last make anybody laugh?

Anyway, so it's a perspective thing. Do you know what a perspective is?

A perspective is a point of view. No point of view can be absolute. There's a philosophy based on this.

Perspectivism (German: Perspektivismus) is the term coined by Friedrich Nietzsche in developing the philosophical view (touched upon as far back as Plato's rendition of Protagoras) that all ideations take place from particular perspectives. This means that there are many possible conceptual schemes, or perspectives in which judgment of truth or value can be made. This is often taken to imply that no way of seeing the world can be taken as definitively "true", but does not necessarily entail that all perspectives are equally valid.

Wikipedia

you can have a perspective but surely you know it is dumb to believe that your point of view is the absolute truth and other people's is false.

GooseBaba:


Sharrap dia!!! Na me like am...

We can add paranoia to his mental ills.

PastorAIO:


Bros, it seems that the entire body of your contributions have been a series of jokes.

I think you are becoming frustrated with your furtile attempt to get what you want .

Oh, so you weren't joking anymore.

So I take it that God did not create power neither, nor intelligence, etc. They are just his attributes. I was going to ask you, some where done the line [b]but I'd have needed some definitions first and it seems you don't think deeply enough about what you say to even bother to define your term[/b]s. Maybe I'll come back to it.

You have a really short memory

I defined every term I used . What do you think the hyphens are for ?

consciousness - basically safe awareness

emotions - responses as a result of being self aware

Turin Test - a kind of test that examines how intelligent machines are to know if they close are to thinking like humans

I used robotics to explain my propositions . I also explained that for humans , consciousness is needed for intelligence and to exhibit emotions . I also explained that robots don't need consciousness to exhibit intelligence that we can ascertain how intelligent they are e.g Turin Test

From the onset I made two bold statements that y'all have failed egregiously to refute

1. Processes can be designed to be random even chaotic as described and still have the efficacy to produce desired results

2. An observer can see processes as Random or chaotic but not necessarily same to the designer .


I also used robotics to explain how processes can be designed to follow laws . I explained what Nothingness means . I explained how nature was presciently designed . I employed exegesis . I explained that order from randomness can be a design concept with an example .

Aren't all these meaningful contributions ? All you do is sit down and ask unnecessary questions and make blatant non sequiturs

You are the one from your shallow questions that know nothing absolutely nothing about what or who is being discussed here .

God is eternal , a container of infinity , his attributes are what make him who he is . And still you asked me if he didn't create consciousness
Can you imagine

Gerarahia mehn

PastorAIO:




We can add paranoia to his mental ills.

Mental ills ? From someone who does not have the brains to push beyond the Big Bang ? We Christians have pushed farther , two realms away with perspicuous explanations while your puny-minded kind sit and ridicule . Very shallow and odious I must say . Just take a look at Weah96 :"Go ask your infinity google " - even kids on pampers can't babble such

GooseBaba:


Sharrap dia!!! Na me like am...

I believe you na .

KingEbukaNaija:


I believe you na .

You think it's easy to like a post.... And you want to give credit to someone else.... No let natural disaster burst for this thread...

GooseBaba:


You think it's easy to like a post.... And you want to give credit to someone else.... No let natural disaster burst for this thread...

... oya sorry

KingEbukaNaija:


Mental ills ? From someone who does not have the brains to push beyond the Big Bang . We Christians have pushed further two realms away with perspicuous explanations while your puny-minded kind sit and ridicule . Very shallow and odious I must say . Just take a look at Weah96 :"Go ask your infinity google " - even kids on pampers can't babble such

Push further two realms....!!! LMAO!!!

You this guy..... your imagination is clearly high on acute delusion.... I hail ohhh

GooseBaba:


Push further two realms....!!! LMAO!!!

You this guy..... your imagination is clearly high on acute delusion.... I hail ohhh

And he calls it delusion . Do you see why the best descriptions atheists are "shallow" , "puny-minded" , "irrational" , "obtuse" and "close-minded"

PastorAIO:




We can add paranoia to his mental ills.

A man who speaks for something abi nothing that is beyond time and space is a very dangerous somebody and very intelligent in his own mind. Paranoia will be a badge of honor....

KingEbukaNaija 1 of NL... I greet you

@Goosebaba ... you really need to understand the Logic of God and EVERYTHING

EVERYTHING - I hope you'd experience an epiphany when you realise the inherent logical information in that word

KingEbukaNaija:


And he calls it delusion . Did you see why the best descriptions atheists are "shallow" , "puny-minded" , "irrational" , "obtuse" and "close-minded"

Wetin come consign me consign atheism...

Meanwhile, kindly elaborate on your "two realms "...biko

KingEbukaNaija:
@Goosebaba ... you really need to understand the Logic of God and EVERYTHING

EVERYTHING - I hope you'd experience an epiphany when you realise the inherent logical information in that word

The logic...... According to..............?

GooseBaba:


A man who speaks for something abi nothing that is beyond time and space is a very dangerous somebody and very intelligent in his own mind. Paranoia will be a badge of honor....

KingEbukaNaija 1 of NL... I greet you

Close-mindedness

GooseBaba:


Wetin come consign me consign atheism...

Meanwhile, kindly elaborate on your "two realms "...biko

It has been done already on this thread . Find it