PastorAIO:


magic without a Magician? How about a Magician without Magic?

Why is he called a magician if he has no magic powers . Magic is an action performed

KingEbukaNaija:

: God's foreknowledge of his creation as an all knowing entity gave him the intelligence to create from nothingness

I have already said it, Merlin,.. Sorry, I mean J.K Rowling's. K for Kingebukasblog.

You are the best author and marketing guru for the Toothfairy.

You should seriously consider a career in writing fairy Tales.

plaetton:

You are the best author and marketing guru for the Toothfairy.

You should seriously consider a career in writing fairy Tales.

Actually , some atheists like Richard Dawkins took your advice

KingEbukaNaija:


Actually , some atheists like Richard Dawkins took your advice

Lol. U should add plaetton, Dawkins na part 1 for im side. With all his nonsense talk of random chaos he takes the cake.

UyiIredia:


Lol. U should add plaetton, Dawkins na part 1 for im side. With all his nonsense talk of random chaos he takes the cake.

Thanks for the compliment, Uyi.

UyiIredia:


Lol. U should add plaetton, Dawkins na part 1 for im side. With all his nonsense talk of random chaos he takes the cake.

chai

KingEbukaNaija:


Yup

And Christians will live eternally with these attributes . Mind births mind . These attributes were passed onto us . For everything to exist an ALL has to be eternal .

Atheists believe nature unconsciously and vacuously (randomness and chaos) produced consciousness and intelligence

I don't believe you can say that is the atheist's position, more like the Materialist's position. For instance, Buddhists and Jains are Atheist but they believe that 'nature' and all phenomena (including deities) are products of consciousness.

But that is by the by. What I really want to get to is…

How are you certain that nature can't produce consciousness (1), Intelligence (2), and Emotions (3)? I'm not disputing your belief, I just want to know how you arrived at it with such certainty.

KingEbukaNaija:


Why is he called a magician if he has no magic powers . Magic is an action performed

It doesn't matter what he is called. I presumed that The magician existed before he even began performing any acts of magic.

Can we argue that God only came into being when he started to create the universe? ie. He is defined by his creative act, but not only that but His whole existence depends on his being a creator.

PastorAIO:


It doesn't matter what he is called. I presumed that The magician existed before he even began performing any acts of magic.

Can we argue that God only came into being when he started to create the universe? ie. He is defined by his creative act, but not only that but His whole existence depends on his being a creator.

No , God has always been around even before the genesis of the universe - He is eternal . God is not only defined by his creative acts . He is a Judge , Father , Protector , Avenger etc .

KingEbukaNaija:


Atheists believe nature unconsciously and vacuously (randomness and chaos) produced consciousness and intelligence

Lol. Unbelievable. You still have no idea what atheism is.

KingEbukaNaija:


No , God has always been around even before the genesis of the universe - He is eternal . God is not only defined by his creative acts . He is a Judge , Father , Protector , Avenger etc .

He is Superman. He is my hero. And one day, he will come and rescue me from this evil world to Universe called heaven.

I know it's true. My favorite fairy tale told me so.

PastorAIO:


I don't believe you can say that is the atheist's position, more like the Materialist's position. For instance, Buddhists and Jains are Atheist but they believe that 'nature' and all phenomena (including deities) are products of consciousness.

Well an atheist is a non believer in the existence of gods (including creator gods ) , so if the universe wasn't created by someone ( a conscious creator ) then everything made itself - which is impossible and unprovable .

Consciousness is basically about self awareness . Self then awareness , so its an erroneous belief that everything is a product of self awareness . An entity (self ) then awareness . Since God is eternal , He has always been aware of Himself .

But that is by the by. What I really want to get to is…

How are you certain that nature can't produce consciousness (1), Intelligence (2), and Emotions (3)? I'm not disputing your belief, I just want to know how you arrived at it with such certainty.

1. Actually , its simple for me . Since God exists (through my experience ) then nature can't bring produce any of the above .

2. But logically , mind births mind like I said . How is this so ?

An ALL who has always known what it means to be intelligent , conscious , and have emotions - his response to good and evil - should pass down these attributes.

This is best explained in robotics , we have humanoid robots who are not conscious . And how do we know they are not conscious because they do not exhibit it , how do we know they are intelligent , it is given to them by us and is exhibited by these robots and then agreed that they are intelligent e. g Turin Test . Same with emotions .

God created us and then knew we are indeed conscious (though we now exhibit it and know we are ) , intelligent , and have emotions . Emotions must need consciousness , robots are intelligent but are not conscious . The struggle to make robots conscious alone proves that its an attribute that has to be passed on . Produce robots first , then make them conscious

But for humans we need to be conscious to exhibit intelligence and show our emotions - our responses as a result of being self aware .

KingEbukaNaija:

Well an atheist is a non believer in the existence of gods (including creator gods ) , so if the universe wasn't created by someone ( a conscious creator ) then everything made itself - which is impossible and unprovable .

sonOfLucifer:

Assumptions are not proof . Dont get it twisted

KingEbukaNaija:


Assumptions are not proof . Dont get it twisted

I just enjoy reading your strong arguments. Keep posting.

@kingebukanaija

This is best explained in robotics , we have humanoid robots who are not conscious . And how do we know they are not conscious because they do not exhibit it , how do we know they are intelligent , it is given to them by us and is exhibited by these robots and then agreed that they are intelligent e. g Turin Test . Same with emotions .

Are you aware of Qualia?

Kay17:
@kingebukanaija



Are you aware of Qualia?

Nope ... wikipedia's explanation is vague . Can you explain ?

sonOfLucifer:

I just enjoy reading your strong arguments. Keep posting.

Sarcasm off course

KingEbukaNaija:


No , God has always been around even before the genesis of the universe - He is eternal . God is not only defined by his creative acts . He is a Judge , Father , Protector , Avenger etc .

These are all still acts. What is a judge without anything to judge. What is a protector without anything to protect. What is an avenger without anything to avenge. All your descriptions of God are based on the assumption that there are something else to which he bears these relations and attributes. Therefore before he created anything there can be nothing for him to be 'judge, father, protector, avenger' to. Therefore you cannot give him any meaningful description or attributes. To all intents and purposes you cannot say he exists.

KingEbukaNaija:


Well an atheist is a non believer in the existence of gods (including creator gods ) , so if the universe wasn't created by someone ( a conscious creator ) then everything made itself - which is impossible and unprovable .

I see that you statement of 'impossible and unprovable' has already drawn some attention.

If God is self creating then why can't anything else be self creating?

If God is, rather than self creating, eternally existent then why can't anything else be eternally existent?

If proving such things are 'impossible and unprovable' on what do you rest your claims that such is the case with God?

If God, an eternally existent being, why can we not presume that there must be other eternally existent beings besides him?

Consciousness is basically about self awareness . Self then awareness , so its an erroneous belief that everything is a product of self awareness . An entity (self ) then awareness . Since God is eternal , He has always been aware of Himself .

What if the act of consciousness cannot be distinguished from the being of consciousness? Ie. that Pure consciousness is the consciousness of Being conscious.

If you want to separate the self from it's awareness of itself then the question arises, where did the awareness come from and when did it arise? if the awareness is as eternal as the 'self' then where does the distinction come in.

1. Actually , its simple for me . Since God exists (through my experience ) then nature can't bring produce any of the above .

How does God's existence mandate that any of the above cannot happen? After all Nature has produced many things. Man himself has produced Robotics which you yourself have agreed show intelligence.

2. But logically , mind births mind like I said . How is this so ?

An ALL who has always known what it means to be intelligent , conscious , and have emotions - his response to good and evil - should pass down these attributes.

I don't quite follow. Are you saying that our minds are birthed from God's mind and that is how and why we have the attribute of consciousness?

This is best explained in robotics , we have humanoid robots who are not conscious . And how do we know they are not conscious because they do not exhibit it , how do we know they are intelligent , it is given to them by us and is exhibited by these robots and then agreed that they are intelligent e. g Turin Test . Same with emotions .

What are the traits that one should look for if we want to determine if a robot, or anything for that matter, is conscious? I had no idea that it were possible to exhibit consciousness.
Can you also give us an example of where Robots exhibited intelligence? I don't think we birthed the intelligence of Robots from our minds which is what you seem to be saying when you say that 'Mind births mind'.

God created us and then knew we are indeed conscious (though we now exhibit it and know we are ) , intelligent , and have emotions . Emotions must need consciousness , robots are intelligent but are not conscious . The struggle to make robots conscious alone proves that its an attribute that has to be passed on . Produce robots first , then make them conscious

But for humans we need to be conscious to exhibit intelligence and show our emotions - our responses as a result of being self aware .

Again, please how is our consciousness exhibited? What do we do that shows that we are conscious beings, while other parts of creation is not conscious?

I hope you've noticed that all this while I've avoided asking for a definition of what you mean by consciousness, intelligence, and emotions. I've done so in order to not kill the flow because I've noticed that on nairaland nothing kills the thread more than asking people to define what they mean when they use certain terms.

PastorAIO:


These are all still acts. What is a judge without anything to judge. What is a protector without anything to protect. What is an avenger without anything to avenge. All your descriptions of God are based on the assumption that there are something else to which he bears these relations and attributes. Therefore before he created anything there can be nothing for him to be 'judge, father, protector, avenger' to. Therefore you cannot give him any meaningful description or attributes. To all intents and purposes you cannot say he exists.

Those descriptions of judge, avenger, and protector are only relative to his creation.

PastorAIO:

I see that you statement of 'impossible and unprovable' has already drawn some attention.
If God is self creating then why can't anything else be self creating?

God is not self creating.

Your questions are meaningless, because you reject the understanding of the very nature of God or the universe.

God is basically the conscious cause. He is eternal. He is boundless. 'Infinity is contained in Him'.

Me: I mean he is beyond everything and beyond everywhere.

I mean that he is the origin of everything that is, and by everything, i mean everything. space, time, energy, the realms material and immaterial.

I mean he is boundless and limitless and without end and immortal.

PastorAIO:
If God is, rather than self creating, eternally existent then why can't anything else be eternally existent?
If proving such things are 'impossible and unprovable' on what do you rest your claims that such is the case with God?
If God, an eternally existent being, why can we not presume that there must be other eternally existent beings besides him?

Because, eternal existence by its very definition envelopes everything. Eternally existent means/is continually present, and enveloping and filling all parts of reality...actually creation is contained in eternal existence, so more precisely, all parts of reality, all parts of creation, are enveloped and contained in Him. It means your presence and consciousness is everywhere and pervades every place. This does not leave room for anything else. If there was another being that was eternally existent, they wouldn't differ in any way. They would be the same being.

I have logically shown(proved) our propositions. Thank you.

What I have just said is captured in a way in a verse of the bible.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The word is eternally existent. God is eternally existent. The word was with God, The word was God.
Selah

PastorAIO:
What if the act of consciousness cannot be distinguished from the being of consciousness? Ie. that Pure consciousness is the consciousness of Being conscious.
If you want to separate the self from it's awareness of itself then the question arises, where did the awareness come from and when did it arise? if the awareness is as eternal as the 'self' then where does the distinction come in.
How does God's existence mandate that any of the above cannot happen? After all Nature has produced many things. Man himself has produced Robotics which you yourself have agreed show intelligence.
I don't quite follow. Are you saying that our minds are birthed from God's mind and that is how and why we have the attribute of consciousness?
What are the traits that one should look for if we want to determine if a robot, or anything for that matter, is conscious? I had no idea that it were possible to exhibit consciousness.Can you also give us an example of where Robots exhibited intelligence? I don't think we birthed the intelligence of Robots from our minds which is what you seem to be saying when you say that 'Mind births mind'.
Again, please how is our consciousness exhibited? What do we do that shows that we are conscious beings, while other parts of creation is not conscious?

It seems you favor specificity and correlation in the definition of words and details. I do too.

By consciousness, we mean sentience, self awareness in all the depth of feeling and emotion and communication and creativity. Intelligence is only an integrate of this knowledge of existence and living.

It is hard to define what makes us living souls. Although we all know it in our minds, it is difficult to encompass in a few words, because it is bigger than our communication. We can only mostly define the attributes of sentience as sentience.

We are animate and alive, and independent. No other organism has shown our complexity and our emotions and awareness and creativity and the animation of our communication and life, because they are not capable of doing so. We have MIND. Robots do not. animals do not. Mind is not a function of material evolution(do you dispute this?). Mind begets mind. Only an eternal mind is capable of drawing and painting us and bringing us into existence. Our sentience was birthed by one higher than us. And our awareness was once a plan in his own mind before he moved forth to execute.

Our 'aliveness' is not ours, but his. We don't have capacity to give anything mind, because there is and can only be one mind giver. As I have shown in previous explanations.
Robots are only functional material aggregates that run by algorithm. We are much more.

PastorAIO:
I hope you've noticed that all this while I've avoided asking for a definition of what you mean by consciousness, intelligence, and emotions. I've done so in order to not kill the flow because I've noticed that on nairaland nothing kills the thread more than asking people to define what they mean when they use certain terms.

And I hope you realize that your questions are so convoluted that I cannot possibly have addressed them all in this single reply.

plaetton:


Yes.
Plenty.

Cloud formations, movement and dissipations.

Mountain ranges and Rifft valleys.

Rivers and their Tributaries.

Forestations.

Continental drift.


These are all complex functional systems whose origins are underpinned by random chaotic events.

Urine and faeces are also complex functional systems whose origins are underpinned by random chaotic events

Is Joshthefirst the same as KingEbukasblog. I wasn't aware. Okay, I'll come back and proceed as if they were the same person and respond to this later this evening.

Joshthefirst:
Those descriptions of judge, avenger, and protector are only relative to his creation.

God is not self creating.

Your questions are meaningless, because you reject the understanding of the very nature of God or the universe.

God is basically the conscious cause. He is eternal. He is boundless. 'Infinity is contained in Him'.



Because, eternal existence by its very definition envelopes everything. Eternally existent means/is continually present, and enveloping and filling all parts of reality...actually creation is contained in eternal existence, so more precisely, all parts of reality, all parts of creation, are enveloped and contained in Him. It means your presence and consciousness is everywhere and pervades every place. This does not leave room for anything else. If there was another being that was eternally existent, they wouldn't differ in any way. They would be the same being.

I have logically shown(proved) our propositions. Thank you.

What I have just said is captured in a way in a verse of the bible.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The word is eternally existent. God is eternally existent. The word was with God, The word was God.
Selah

It seems you favor specificity and correlation in the definition of words and details. I do too.

By consciousness, we mean sentience, self awareness in all the depth of feeling and emotion and communication and creativity. Intelligence is only an integrate of this knowledge of existence and living.

It is hard to define what makes us living souls. Although we all know it in our minds, it is difficult to encompass in a few words, because it is bigger than our communication. We can only mostly define the attributes of sentience as sentience.

We are animate and alive, and independent. No other organism has shown our complexity and our emotions and awareness and creativity and the animation of our communication and life, because they are not capable of doing so. We have MIND. Robots do not. animals do not. Mind is not a function of material evolution(do you dispute this?). Mind begets mind. Only an eternal mind is capable of drawing and painting us and bringing us into existence. Our sentience was birthed by one higher than us. And our awareness was once a plan in his own mind before he moved forth to execute.

Our 'aliveness' is not ours, but his. We don't have capacity to give anything mind, because there is and can only be one mind giver. As I have shown in previous explanations.
Robots are only functional material aggregates that run by algorithm. We are much more.


And I hope you realize that your questions are so convoluted that I cannot possibly have addressed them all in this single reply.

Joshthefirst:
Urine and faeces are also complex functional systems whose origins are underpinned by random chaotic events

Why do things that are beyond your understanding vex you so much ?

plaetton:


You make excellent marketing pro for the Toothfairy.

And you remain hypocritical in your perception of nature and the universe

PastorAIO:
Is Joshthefirst the same as KingEbukasblog. I wasn't aware. Okay, I'll come back and proceed as if they were the same person and respond to this later this evening.

We are not the same person. I only gave a reply.

PastorAIO:


I see that you statement of 'impossible and unprovable' has already drawn some attention.

If God is self creating then why can't anything else be self creating?

If God is, rather than self creating, eternally existent then why can't anything else be eternally existent?

If proving such things are 'impossible and unprovable' on what do you rest your claims that such is the case with God?

If God, an eternally existent being, why can we not presume that there must be other eternally existent beings besides him?

You are talking like its a theory or a hypothetical model of a creator . We are talking of an entity who is existing as we discuss now . God is also a Supreme Being anyway . There is none beside Him , no one greater .

What if the act of consciousness cannot be distinguished from the being of consciousness? Ie. that Pure consciousness is the consciousness of Being conscious.

If you want to separate the self from it's awareness of itself then the question arises, where did the awareness come from and when did it arise? if the awareness is as eternal as the 'self' then where does the distinction come in.

Simple . God is eternal , so are His attributes - they have always been , are , will always be existing with Him . Its illogical to ask where the attributes of an eternal being come from . So consciousness - self awareness - comes from God .

How does God's existence mandate that any of the above cannot happen? After all Nature has produced many things. Man himself has produced Robotics which you yourself have agreed show intelligence.

God kicked off things . Nature derived the propensity for or to do anything because he designed it that way

Joshthefirst:
Urine and faeces are also complex functional systems whose origins are underpinned by random chaotic events

PastorAIO:
Is Joshthefirst the same as KingEbukasblog. I wasn't aware. Okay, I'll come back and proceed as if they were the same person and respond to this later this evening.

We are different . I think Joshthefirst addressed your post brilliantly .

Joshthefirst:
Those descriptions of judge, avenger, and protector are only relative to his creation.

Well, what attributes of his do you have that are not related to his creation? pray share.

God is not self creating.

Good to know, from a great authoritative source such as yourself.

Your questions are meaningless, because you reject the understanding of the very nature of God or the universe.

First you have to propose an understanding of the very nature of God or the universe before I can reject it.

I was going by what you said when you said that it was 'impossible and unprovable' to say that the universe was self creating. I then applied that reasoning to the claims for God. Perhaps my direct questions to your statement sounds meaningless because your initial statements are meaningless.

God is basically the conscious cause. He is eternal. He is boundless. 'Infinity is contained in Him'.

Right. Have you got any more attributes or does that sum him up?

Because, eternal existence by its very definition envelopes everything. Eternally existent means/is continually present, and enveloping and filling all parts of reality...actually creation is contained in eternal existence, so more precisely, all parts of reality, all parts of creation, are enveloped and contained in Him. It means your presence and consciousness is everywhere and pervades every place. This does not leave room for anything else. If there was another being that was eternally existent, they wouldn't differ in any way. They would be the same being.

Where did you get your definition of 'eternal existence'? Okay, so Nothingness is eternally existent. Nothing exists everywhere and envelops everything. In that case, since if another being that was eternally existent wouldn't differ in any way, but be the same thing it follows that your God is NOTHING.

I have logically shown(proved) our propositions. Thank you.

Lol! Okay.

What I have just said is captured in a way in a verse of the bible.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The word is eternally existent. God is eternally existent. The word was with God, The word was God.
Selah

Okay!

It seems you favor specificity and correlation in the definition of words and details. I do too.

yes please.

By consciousness, we mean sentience, self awareness in all the depth of feeling and emotion and communication and creativity. Intelligence is only an integrate of this knowledge of existence and living.

Let me get this straight. For you you understand consciousness to be self awareness experienced as feelings, emotion, communication and creativity. Then when you integrate this self knowledge with living then that is intelligence.

Is this correct?

It is hard to define what makes us living souls. Although we all know it in our minds, it is difficult to encompass in a few words, because it is bigger than our communication. We can only mostly define the attributes of sentience as sentience.

So what are the attributes of sentience?

I didn't ask for any definition of what makes us living souls. Just Consciousness will do for now, thank you.

We are animate and alive, and independent. No other organism has shown our complexity and our emotions and awareness and creativity and the animation of our communication and life, because they are not capable of doing so. We have MIND. Robots do not. animals do not. Mind is not a function of material evolution(do you dispute this?). Mind begets mind. Only an eternal mind is capable of drawing and painting us and bringing us into existence. Our sentience was birthed by one higher than us. And our awareness was once a plan in his own mind before he moved forth to execute.

You are making a lot of claims here without any back up. Many other organisms are animate and alive and show emotions and awareness and creativity and communication. Many Many many other organisms.
Why do you say that only humans have MIND and not animals? How do you know that Mind begets mind? Perhaps Mind comes into being spontaneously.

Our 'aliveness' is not ours, but his. We don't have capacity to give anything mind, because there is and can only be one mind giver. As I have shown in previous explanations.
Robots are only functional material aggregates that run by algorithm. We are much more.

I'm not convinced. You're not even bothering to buttress your claims with an argument.

And I hope you realize that your questions are so convoluted that I cannot possibly have addressed them all in this single reply.

I asked my questions according to the convolutedness of your propositions. I'm sorry that you've found yourself so intractable.

KingEbukaNaija:


You are talking like its a theory or a hypothetical model of a creator . We are talking of an entity who is existing as we discuss now . God is also a Supreme Being anyway . There is none beside Him , no one greater .

You have presented him like a theory or an hypothetical model. If he is otherwise then present him in an appropriate manner.

Simple . God is eternal , so are His attributes - they have always been , are , will always be existing with Him . Its illogical to ask where the attributes of an eternal being come from . So consciousness - self awareness - comes from God .

Could you tell us what 3 of these eternal attributes are?

I take it consciousness is one of them. Please, are you saying that God IS Consciousness? Or God HAS consciousness?

I note that you didn't actually respond to what I said, but I'll let it slide.

God kicked off things . Nature derived the propensity for or to do anything because he designed it that way

Again just another claim without any evidence or argument to back it up.

KingEbukasBlog:


We are different . I think Joshthefirst addressed your post brilliantly .

Oh, I see. But you agree with his response, so it's okay to treat it as if it's your position.