ayoku777:


I have use all these lines before and preached it before too. So I know the root of this error.

Let me ask you, all the warnings of judgment Jesus gave to the churches in revelation if they don't repent, is it for works of salvation or for sinful lifestyle post-salvation?

Rev 2v5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2v16 - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

You said Christians will not be judged for their sins, yet in all these verses Jesus kept talking to believers about what will happen if they do not repent of their sins and carnality. This is not reward for works of salvation as you're trying to make it look, but judgment against carnality.

If sins are automatically forgiven, should Jesus give this stern warning to unrepentant believers?

And I wrote this reply earlier, which you ignored.



And about that 1Cor 3. You said that scripture is talking about the works of salvation or achievements. That's not true.

1Cor 3v12 - Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

What does it mean to build on Christ with wood, hay and stubble? Wood, hay and stubble refer to iniquity or carnality.

2Tim 2v19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21  If a man therefore purge himself from these (iniquities), he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Can you see from these verse? A vessel of wood and earth, is a vessel of dishonour, one who has not purged himself from iniquities and carnalities by growing in Christlikeness.

So going back to 1Cor 3v12; to build on Christ with wood, hay and stubble is to build on Christ in carnality, to do the work of Christ in unchristlikeness. Wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh or works done in the flesh.

And scripture says those who build on Christ with wood, hay and stubble will have their works burnt at the judgment seat of Christ.

1Cor 3v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Meaning believers who do the work of Christ in unchristlikeness will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

These shows clearly that our Christlikeness or unchristlikeness post-salvation will determine our reward or loss at the jugment seat of Christ. It is not just what we did that will be rewarded but the Christlikeness or carnality in which we did it.

Our Christlikeness does not determine our salvation, but it determines our reward in the age to come. We are not just called to have the life of Christ in our spirit, but also to have the lifestyle of Christ in our soul. Our success or failure in having the lifestyle of Christ determines our glorification in the age to come and our greatness in the kingdom of God.

We will be judged for our lifestyles too as believers and rewarded for our Christlikeness post-salvation. Heaven takes into record our lifestlye, and carnal believers will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ as Paul warned, and as Jesus warned the churches in revelation.

Shalom!

I agree with Ayoku777. There's what the Bible calls canality. What about carnal Christians? There is what the Bible calls hidden sins. These are not for unbelievers, it's for unfruitful believers.
Let's look at John 15: 2. Every branch IN ME, that beareth not fruits, will be cut off.
The branch is attached to the vine, not outside the vine.
But why will that branch be attached to the vine and yet not bear fruits? Vs7 says, if you abide in me, and my words abide you..., here the Lord wasn't addressing unbelievers, he was talking to the Apostles. His followers. If we give our lives to christ, but continue in sin, lying, pride, self righteousness,(unbrokeness), uncleanness. If we don't repent and turn away, that means the Adamic nature in us is not dealt with. And what God will judge on the last day is not basically the sins of fornication or stealing, but the nature of sin in us.
The duty of every Christian should be to deal with the nature of sin. Get it out of you. If that nature doesn't die, you can't be free to live in newness of life. If you die still having that nature, well...

ayoku777:


I have use all these lines before and preached it before too. So I know the root of this error.

Let me ask you, all the warnings of judgment Jesus gave to the churches in revelation if they don't repent, is it for works of salvation or for sinful lifestyle post-salvation?

Rev 2v5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2v16 - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

You said Christians will not be judged for their sins, yet in all these verses Jesus kept talking to believers about what will happen if they do not repent of their sins and carnality. This is not reward for works of salvation as you're trying to make it look, but judgment against carnality.

If sins are automatically forgiven, should Jesus give this stern warning to unrepentant believers?

And I wrote this reply earlier, which you ignored.



And about that 1Cor 3. You said that scripture is talking about the works of salvation or achievements. That's not true.

1Cor 3v12 - Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

What does it mean to build on Christ with wood, hay and stubble? Wood, hay and stubble refer to iniquity or carnality.

2Tim 2v19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21  If a man therefore purge himself from these (iniquities), he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Can you see from these verse? A vessel of wood and earth, is a vessel of dishonour, one who has not purged himself from iniquities and carnalities by growing in Christlikeness.

So going back to 1Cor 3v12; to build on Christ with wood, hay and stubble is to build on Christ in carnality, to do the work of Christ in unchristlikeness. Wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh or works done in the flesh.

And scripture says those who build on Christ with wood, hay and stubble will have their works burnt at the judgment seat of Christ.

1Cor 3v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Meaning believers who do the work of Christ in unchristlikeness will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

These shows clearly that our Christlikeness or unchristlikeness post-salvation will determine our reward or loss at the jugment seat of Christ. It is not just what we did that will be rewarded but the Christlikeness or carnality in which we did it.

Our Christlikeness does not determine our salvation, but it determines our reward in the age to come. We are not just called to have the life of Christ in our spirit, but also to have the lifestyle of Christ in our soul. Our success or failure in having the lifestyle of Christ determines our glorification in the age to come and our greatness in the kingdom of God.

We will be judged for our lifestyles too as believers and rewarded for our Christlikeness post-salvation. Heaven takes into record our lifestlye, and carnal believers will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ as Paul warned, and as Jesus warned the churches in revelation.

Shalom!

The very big problem you have is that the veil of self-righteousness is becoming too much.

If you can allow the veil off your eyes, you will sincerely know that I have dealt with your misunderstanding over 1cor.3:14-15, brutally and SQUARELY. But, just that you can't see what I explained with the veil on your eyes.

And I won't be going back to explain your ignorance over that verse. But may consider to explain the next thing which is the rev. verses you quoted.

promisechuks:

The very big problem you have is that the veil of self-righteousness is becoming too much.

If you can allow the veil off your eyes, you will sincerely know that I have dealt with your misunderstanding over 1cor.3:14-15, brutally and SQUARELY. But, just that you can't see what I explained with the veil on your eyes.

And I won't be going back to explain your ignorance over that verse. But may consider to explain the next thing which is the rev. verses you quoted.

Nawa o. When you tell a christian about mortifying the lust of the flesh, subduing the deeds of the body, and working out the uprightness of imputed righteousness, they claim you're preaching self-righteousness.

Are those not all the things scripture admonish us to do?

Colosians 3v5 - Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1Cor 9v27 - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Romans 8v13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

All these exhortations and admonitions were addressed to believers under grace. Was Paul preaching self-righteousness here too?

Why do you have selective blindness to the entirety of the doctrines of the new covenant? You love the doctrines of grace that talk about imputed righteousness and gift of eternal life, but play denial to the parts that demand mortifying the lusts of the flesh and working out the imputed righteousness. And yet you claim I'm the one with the veil.

The grace of God didn't just bring salvation, it also teaches us to say no to ungodliness?

Titus 2v11 -For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

You don't just get to accept the side of grace that bringeth salvation, and turn away from the side of grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness, as if it is optional or it has no consequence.

Everything that was imputed into our spirit by faith at the point of salvation, God wants us to work them out, and walk in the reality of it. And how well we do that post-salvation will determine our glorification and greatness in the age to come in the kingdom of God.

Carnality will not cost us our salvation if we don't let it degenerate into unbelief. But a christlike christian and a carnal christian will not have the same glorification and greatness in the kingdom of God. Carnality will cost believers dearly and make them suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

This truth is made clear all through scriptures, I'm even shocked you're debating it and saying I'm the one with the veil.

And about the 1Cor 3. You didn't explain anything. You tried to make wood, hay and stubble to mean works of salvation that we will be rewarded for. That is wrong.

Wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh or works done in the flesh. And believers who build on Christ with the works of the flesh or do the work of Christ in unchristlikeness will suffer loss at His judgment seat. And I proved that explanation with scriptures.

That is the correct interpretation of that verse. Not the works of salvation that you try to make it mean. Carnality and unchristlikeness will cost christians great measure of glory and greatness at the judgment seat of Christ. Anyone who denies that is the one with the veil on their eyes.

Shalom

ayoku777:


Nawa o. When you tell a christian about mortifying the lust of the flesh, subduing the deeds of the body, and working out the uprightness of imputed righteousness, they claim you're preaching self-righteousness.

Are those not all the things scripture admonish us to do?

Colosians 3v5 - Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1Cor 9v27 - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Romans 8v13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

All these exhortations and admonitions were addressed to believers under grace. Was Paul preaching self-righteousness here too?

Why do you have selective blindness to the entirety of the doctrines of the new covenant? You love the doctrines of grace that talk about imputed righteousness and gift of eternal life, but play denial to the parts that demand mortifying the lusts of the flesh and working out the imputed righteousness. And yet you claim I'm the one with the veil.

The grace of God didn't just bring salvation, it also teaches us to say no to ungodliness?

Titus 2v11 -For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

You don't just get to accept the side of grace that bringeth salvation, and turn away from the side of grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness, as if it is optional or it has no consequence.

Everything that was imputed into our spirit by faith at the point of salvation, God wants us to work them out, and walk in the reality of it. And how well we do that post-salvation will determine our glorification and greatness in the age to come in the kingdom of God.

Carnality will not cost us our salvation if we don't let it degenerate into unbelief. But a christlike christian and a carnal christian will not have the same glorification and greatness in the kingdom of God. Carnality will cost believers dearly and make them suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

This truth is made clear all through scriptures, I'm even shocked you're debating it and saying I'm the one with the veil.

And about the 1Cor 3. You didn't explain anything. You tried to make wood, hay and stubble to mean works of salvation that we will be rewarded for. That is wrong.

Wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh or works done in the flesh. And believers who build on Christ with the works of the flesh or do the work of Christ in unchristlikeness will suffer loss at His judgment seat. And I proved that explanation with scriptures.

That is the correct interpretation of that verse. Not the works of salvation that you try to make it mean. Carnality and unchristlikeness will cost christians great measure of glory and greatness at the judgment seat of Christ. Anyone who denies that is the one with the veil on their eyes.

Shalom

Again I agree.
We can borrow a leaf from Samson the great. The guy had GRACE, the spirit of God was heavy on him. But he went about living his life as he pleased. At one time, I went and slept with a prostitute, God's generated, the custodian of the Ark of the covenant at that time, was sleeping around with whores. When he was told the enemy were coming, he rose up, took the gate of the city of his shoulders and took it far off and threw it there. The grace continued manifesting, until one certain day, the holy spirit departed but he didn't know it.
That's how it will be with carnal Christians who say, "it doesn't matter". When the Lord seeks for fruits but finds none, he will cut you off.

ayoku777:


Nawa o. When you tell a christian about mortifying the lust of the flesh, subduing the deeds of the body, and working out the uprightness of imputed righteousness, they claim you're preaching self-righteousness.

Are those not all the things scripture admonish us to do?

Colosians 3v5 - Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1Cor 9v27 - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Romans 8v13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

All these exhortations and admonitions were addressed to believers under grace. Was Paul preaching self-righteousness here too?

Why do you have selective blindness to the entirety of the doctrines of the new covenant? You love the doctrines of grace that talk about imputed righteousness and gift of eternal life, but play denial to the parts that demand mortifying the lusts of the flesh and working out the imputed righteousness. And yet you claim I'm the one with the veil.

The grace of God didn't just bring salvation, it also teaches us to say no to ungodliness?

Titus 2v11 -For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

You don't just get to accept the side of grace that bringeth salvation, and turn away from the side of grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness, as if it is optional or it has no consequence.

Everything that was imputed into our spirit by faith at the point of salvation, God wants us to work them out, and walk in the reality of it. And how well we do that post-salvation will determine our glorification and greatness in the age to come in the kingdom of God.

Carnality will not cost us our salvation if we don't let it degenerate into unbelief. But a christlike christian and a carnal christian will not have the same glorification and greatness in the kingdom of God. Carnality will cost believers dearly and make them suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

This truth is made clear all through scriptures, I'm even shocked you're debating it and saying I'm the one with the veil.

And about the 1Cor 3. You didn't explain anything. You tried to make wood, hay and stubble to mean works of salvation that we will be rewarded for. That is wrong.

Wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh or works done in the flesh. And believers who build on Christ with the works of the flesh or do the work of Christ in unchristlikeness will suffer loss at His judgment seat. And I proved that explanation with scriptures.

That is the correct interpretation of that verse. Not the works of salvation that you try to make it mean. Carnality and unchristlikeness will cost christians great measure of glory and greatness at the judgment seat of Christ. Anyone who denies that is the one with the veil on their eyes.

Shalom

Again I agree.
We can borrow a leaf from Samson the great. The guy had GRACE, the spirit of God was heavy on him. But he went about living his life as he pleased. At one time, he went and slept with a prostitute, God's general, the custodian of the Ark of the covenant at that time, was sleeping around with whores. When he was told the enemy were coming, he rose up, took the gate of the city on his shoulders and took it far off and threw it there.
The grace continued manifesting, until one certain day, the holy spirit departed but he didn't know it.
That's how it will be with carnal Christians who say, "it doesn't matter". When the Lord seeks for fruits but finds none, he will cut you off.

[s]

analice107:

As you can see, this is a christian discussion, not Islam, depart in piss to you piss loving section. Piss

[/s]

How Christian of you. You're more then welcome to comment on any question or questions in any section. No one will get mad

promisechuks:

The very big problem you have is that the veil of self-righteousness is becoming too much.

If you can allow the veil off your eyes, you will sincerely know that I have dealt with your misunderstanding over 1cor.3:14-15, brutally and SQUARELY. But, just that you can't see what I explained with the veil on your eyes.

And I won't be going back to explain your ignorance over that verse. But may consider to explain the next thing which is the rev. verses you quoted.

Such arrogance from a believer!

Goshen360:
I was listening to a known popular Television evangelist by the name of Joseph Prince and guess what, he said "Heaven does not record the sins of believers even though you sin" Am like WHAT! This is a Grace perverted Gospel.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4, Kjv

Jude 1:4
Contemporary English Version (CEV)

4 Some godless people have sneaked in among us and are saying, “God treats us much better than we deserve, and so it is all right to be immoral.” They even deny that we must obey Jesus Christ as our only Master and Lord. But long ago the Scriptures warned that these godless people were doomed.

Jude 1:4
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

4 Some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. Not long ago they were condemned in writing for the following reason: They are people to whom God means nothing. They use God’s kindness as an excuse for sexual freedom and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Romans 6:1 Kjv

I can imagine how u felt writing this and how you're feeling now

grevotech:

I can imagine how u felt writing this and how you're feeling now

....now with a better understanding. ..still not a license to immoral lifestyle. ...

Goshen360:


....now with a better understanding. ..still not a license to immoral lifestyle. ...

Just going through your profile and you've done quite a lot of Job on this...

grevotech:

Just going through your profile and you've done quite a lot of Job on this...

You know when revelation hits a man, he's turned loosed and free from all chains and shackles. ....lol.

Goshen360:


You know when revelation hits a man, he's turned loosed and free from all chains and shackles. ....lol.

Lol I get it. He starts behaving like a mad man... The whole world must hear this bro. More Grace

ayoku777:


Did I tell you that salvation is by works, or that what we do right or wrong is what determines our righteousness.

You said all our sins, past, present and future have being paid for and forgiven by Christ. And I showed you statements made by Jesus Himself, outlining what will happen to believers who don't repent.

Does that not show you that there is no automatic forgiveness for sins we don't repent of? Or can someone suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ for a sin that that has been "automatically" forgiven.

Salvation is by faith alone, and we don't lose it unless we depart from the faith. But even so, heaven takes our sins into account and if we don't repent of them, we will suffer loss for them in the judgment of Christ, even though it won't cost us salvation and eternal life, if we don't depart from the faith.

You are wrong that heaven does not take record of the sins of believers. The warning of Jesus to the churches in Revelation proved you wrong.

I'm not saying carnality can cost us our salvation. A carnal christian is called a "babe IN CHRIST" -meaning he is still in Christ. The only sin that can cost a believer his salvation is unbelief or departure from the faith.

But carnality has consequences in this age and in the age to come. Carnality will cost us our crown and demote us in the kingdom of God, among other losses. And if we let it degenerate into unbelief (departure from the faith), it will cost us our salvation too. It is a lie that all our sins are automatically forgiven and written off.

Shalom

@ayoku777, Few points to note, the judgement of sinners is different from that of believers.

Sinners shall be judged unto eternal condemnation (damnation and destruction).

...because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead. - Acts 17:31 (MKJV)
But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. - 2 Peter 3:7 (MKJV)

The believer, through his good works (not his sins), shall be judged unto eternal reward.

Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me. - Matthew 25:34-40 (MKJV)

[b]So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
...each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.

If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. - 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-14 (MKJV)

...knowing that from the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance. For you serve the Lord Christ. - Colossians 3:24 (MKJV)
Now there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that Day; and not to me only, but also to all those who love His appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8 (MKJV)

And the nations were full of wrath, and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.
- Revelation 11:18 (MKJV)[/b]

Thank you.
You're blessed

grevotech:

Lol I get it. He starts behaving like a mad man... The whole world must hear this bro. More Grace

DivineSpp:

@ayoku77, Few points to note, the judgement of sinners is different from that of believers.

Sinners shall be judged unto eternal condemnation (damnation and destruction).

...because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead. - Acts 17:31 (MKJV)
But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. - 2 Peter 3:7 (MKJV)

The believer, through his good works (not his sins), shall be judged unto eternal reward.

Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me. - Matthew 25:34-40 (MKJV)

[b]So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
...each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.

If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. - 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-14 (MKJV)

...knowing that from the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance. For you serve the Lord Christ. - Colossians 3:24 (MKJV)
Now there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that Day; and not to me only, but also to all those who love His appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8 (MKJV)

And the nations were full of wrath, and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.
- Revelation 11:18 (MKJV)[/b]

Thank you.
You're blessed

Christians will be rewarding for their Christlikeness (works done in the Spirit); and they will suffer loss for their unChristlikeness (works of the flesh or works done in the flesh)

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Can you see that? Its not just good works that would be rewarded for christians, carnal works will also result in loss for them.

Then look at more scriptures that show the consequences of unrepented sins in the life of a christian.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

Rev 2v16 - REPENT; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS.

Jesus Himself was the one talking in all these verses by the way, and He was talking to christians -believers. And He makes clear that there is judgment and no automatic forgiveness for sins not repented of.

All these scriptures and the one in 1Cor 3 show that sin and works of the flesh in the life of believers have consequences in this age and will result in loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

The idea that only the good works of christians will be rewarded, while their carnal works are automatically forgiven and have no consequence in this age and in the next is biblically unfounded and many scriptures disprove it.

Shalom

Goshen360:


You know when revelation hits a man, he's turned loosed and free from all chains and shackles. ....lol.

*smiling*

It is all about grace(jesus).

Everything about us is all about him.

ayoku777:


Christians will be rewarding for their Christlikeness (works done in the Spirit); and they will suffer loss for their unChristlikeness (works of the flesh or works done in the flesh)

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Can you see that? Its not just good works that would be rewarded for christians, carnal works will also result in loss for them.

Then look at more scriptures that show the consequences of unrepented sins in the life of a christian.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

Rev 2v16 - REPENT; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS.

Jesus Himself was the one talking in all these verses by the way, and He was talking to christians -believers. And He makes clear that there is judgment and no automatic forgiveness for sins not repented of.

All these scriptures and the one in 1Cor 3 show that sin and works of the flesh in the life of believers have consequences in this age and will result in loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

The idea that only the good works of christians will be rewarded, while their carnal works are automatically forgiven and have no consequence in this age and in the next is biblically unfounded and many scriptures disprove it.

Shalom

While you are too blinded to believe this truth of grace, let me point this out.

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall BE BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

Think about this verse and tell me what you think, before I can relate with you the relevance of the gospel of grace.

promise101:

While you are too blinded to believe this truth of grace, let me point this out.

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall BE BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

Think about this verse and tell me what you think, before I can relate with you the relevance of the gospel of grace.

You mean that part you put in Capital letters?

It means he won't go to hell or the lake of fire but he will suffer loss of reward at the judgment seat of Christ.

The only sin unto spiritual death is unbelief and departure from the faith. Even so, every sin is unto demotion even if not unto death.

So this idea that sins are automatically forgiven and have no consequence is heresis. Every unrepented sin in the life of a believer has consequence in this age and will cause loss at the judgment seat of Christ -but only the sin of unbelief is unto death.

Shalom

Goshen360:
I was listening to a known popular Television evangelist by the name of Joseph Prince and guess what, he said "Heaven does not record the sins of believers even though you sin" Am like WHAT! This is a Grace perverted Gospel

Joseph Prince is teaching hyper-grace and Mother Grace doctrines because he is suffering from 2 Corinthians 11:4
He, Joseph Prince, Kenneth E. Hagin and others of that like, received a different spirit from the one each received

1 John 2:18
Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared.
From this we know that the last hour has come.

QuentinDay:
Joseph Prince is teaching hyper-grace and Mother Grace doctrines because he is suffering from 2 Corinthians 11:4
He, Joseph Prince, Kenneth E. Hagin and others of that like, received a different spirit from the one each received

1 John 2:18
Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared.
From this we know that the last hour has come.

The believer who started this thread has fallen in love with the gospel of grace, and you are here still quoting him.

Please, give this gospel a chance, it saves!

promise101:
The believer who started this thread has fallen in love with the gospel of grace, and you are here still quoting him.

Please, give this gospel a chance, it saves!

Not when it is a distorted grace and perverted gospel peddled by Joseph Prince, as Goshen360 declared it to be on the original post, here in 2012

ayoku777:


You mean that part you put in Capital letters?

It means he won't go to hell or the lake of fire but he will suffer loss of reward at the judgment seat of Christ.

The only sin unto spiritual death is unbelief and departure from the faith. Even so, every sin is unto demotion even if not unto death.

So this idea that sins are automatically forgiven and have no consequence is heresis. Every unrepented sin in the life of a believer has consequence in this age and will cause loss at the judgment seat of Christ -but only the sin of unbelief is unto death.

Shalom

Okay, let's look into what you just said.

You have agreed that, though the person's work was burnt, HE CAN NEVER MISS HEAVEN(eternal life- a gift), rather he will suffer loss of his REWARD(crown of life).
If so, you are right!

And remember, eternal life is not a reward but a GIFT of God
Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus christ our lord"

. A gift is of grace and not of works, which you can NEVER merit, but reward is of works, and they are things you can merit, by labouring towards it.

For you to understand the forgiveness of a believer, you have to understand the REALITY that happened at the cross.

Do not judge the cross with what you think, rather judge it with the scriptures. Take it the way the bible talked about it.

promise101:


Okay, let's look into what you just said.

You have agreed that, though the person's work was burnt, HE CAN NEVER MISS HEAVEN(eternal life- a gift), rather he will suffer loss of his REWARD(crown of life).
If so, you are right!

And remember, eternal life is not a reward but a GIFT of God
Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus christ our lord"

. A gift is of grace and not of works, which you can NEVER merit, but reward is of works, and they are things you can merit, by labouring towards it.

For you to understand the forgiveness of a believer, you have to understand the REALITY that happened at the cross.

Do not judge the cross with what you think, rather judge it with the scriptures. Take it the way the bible talked about it.

Exactly the point! Is it not the scriptures I have been using since? Infact, it is those who say sins we don't repent of are automatically forgive that have no scriptures to clearly defend that ascertion, just implied assumptions.

I have been showing you clearly in the scriptures many verses where Jesus Christ was warning believers of what will happen, if they do not repent of their sins.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

Rev 2v16 - REPENT; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS.

Doesn't all these verses prove to you that there is no automatic forgiveness for sins if we do not repent of them? And that there are consequences for them?

Or show me where scriptures said or even implied that sin in the life of a christian has no consequence in this life or in the age to come, or that they are automatically forgiven, whether they repent of them or not because of the cross.

The bible says some believers will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

1Cor 3v15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What does loss mean? Loss means something you had or that was yours will be taken away. Meaning that what we do or don't do can cause us to lose things and be demoted in the kingdom of God at the judgment.

That's why Jesus warned;

Rev 3v11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

You can lose your crown by reason of what you do or don't do.

And what are the works that will burn and make a christian suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ?

Scripture calls them "Wood, hay and stubble"

1Cor 3v12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh.

2Timothy 2v19 -Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 -But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21  If a man therefore purge himself from these (iniquities), he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So wood represents a person or works done by a person that does not purge himself of iniquities. Wood, hay and stubble represent the works of the flesh or works done in the flesh.

These things will cause a christian to suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ and will result in demotion in the kingdom of God.

There is no automatic forgiveness for sins believers don't repent of. And there are consequences for them in this age and the next.

I am not lifting this points off the back of my head. I have been showing them to you with clear and self-explained scriptures. You will need to ignore a lot of scriptures and blindside a lot of verses to imply otherwise that unrepented sins have automatic forgiveness.

We can't suffer loss for a sin that has been automatically forgiven because of the cross. If we suffer loss because of what we did or didn't do, then it means that thing was not automatically forgiven

Shalom

ayoku777:


Christians will be rewarding for their Christlikeness (works done in the Spirit); and they will suffer loss for their unChristlikeness (works of the flesh or works done in the flesh)

1Cor 3v14 -If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Can you see that? Its not just good works that would be rewarded for christians, carnal works will also result in loss for them.

Then look at more scriptures that show the consequences of unrepented sins in the life of a christian.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

Rev 2v16 - REPENT; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2v22 -Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS.

Jesus Himself was the one talking in all these verses by the way, and He was talking to christians -believers. And He makes clear that there is judgment and no automatic forgiveness for sins not repented of.

All these scriptures and the one in 1Cor 3 show that sin and works of the flesh in the life of believers have consequences in this age and will result in loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

The idea that only the good works of christians will be rewarded, while their carnal works are automatically forgiven and have no consequence in this age and in the next is biblically unfounded and many scriptures disprove it.

Shalom

How you can believe this, especially the last paragraph and still hold that salvation is not of works, beats my imagination.

Goshen360:


....now with a better understanding. ..still not a license to immoral lifestyle. ...

Now I understand.

Wow! Just seeing this thread for the first time and fellow believers in Christ have seriously dealt with some issues. Let me contribute my own too.

I have seen from scripture that grace has two components. The Unmerited Forgiveness Component and the Unmerited Divine Ability to Perform Component. The two parts are not independent of each other, they are like the two sides of a coin that makes it a legal tender. There will always be an imbalance when one part is emphasised to the detriment of the other. People quote Eph 2:8-9 about being saved by grace but forget to include v.10, "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works..." We are saved so that we can bear good fruits. Of what use is salvation if we live our lives like the rest of the world? Let us reason this. Does it give credit to God's justice system if Mr. Daniel makes heaven while Mr. Pam is condemned simply because he did not accept Jesus, even though they both lived the same lifestyle full of sin? As much as we all aspire to go to heaven, it is shallow to think that the essence of salvation is to make heaven. What then happens after we make heaven? The essence of salvation is to conform into the image and character of Christ. Heaven is the reward for doing God's will on account of our submission to the finished work of Christ (Matthew 7:21). The much bigger picture is becoming like Jesus which proportionally means becoming like God, The Creator. This is what the scriptures meant when it said, God sowed Jesus his Son as a seed to reap a harvest of many sons. Jesus says true worshippers of God will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:24). We are saved to be like Christ. Anyone who claims to be a christian must walk as Jesus did (1 John 2:6). The seed of God (Holy Spirit) keeps him from sinning because he is born of God (1 John 3:9). This is an ability of the Spirit of God given to the believer to live for God (Performance). We are to give diligence to make our calling and election sure (2Pet1:10), and make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with God (2Pet3:14). This is the Divine Ability to Perform Component. God has given us all that is required to live a life of purity and godliness. (2Pet1:3). He supplies grace (ability component) to accomplish all that He requires of us. We did not receive this ability by our efforts. It is because we were forgiven and reconciled to God on account of our Faith in Jesus (Col 1:21). But if we abuse this ability through wilful indiscipline, we grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph4:30). As much as we did not receive the Spirit by our efforts (free gift on account of forgiveness), we are to keep ourselves holy because the Spirit in us is Holy. It is the Holy Spirit in us that guarantees our redemption. Infact, when God sees us, He sees the Holy Spirit. If we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, we are at risk of loosing our salvation (Hebrews 10:26). We lost our position with God when Adam fell from grace. Christ came to restore it. If Adam was deceived by satan which led to his downfall, we should be careful to live in total obedience that we might not fall as Adam did. Even if we do, we still need to ask Him for forgiveness and we will be forgiven. However, because we are in the flesh, we may still fall short. In this case, the finished work of Christ speaks on our behalf (1John2:1-2). This is where the balance is. The truth is once we get saved, we naturally do the things of God. But we are urged to remain attached to the Vine else satan will introduce deceit that could cost one His salvation, similar to Adam's case.

Finally, Jesus did not die solely to give us immunity against punishment. He died so that we could be reconciled back to God; then we can have His Spirit reside in us to live for Him alone.
I did not intend that this write up be this long.

BlackHummer:
Wow! Just seeing this thread for the first time and fellow believers in Christ have seriously dealt with some issues. Let me contribute my own too.

I have seen from scripture that grace has two components. The Unmerited Forgiveness Component and the Unmerited Divine Ability to Perform Component. The two parts are not independent of each other, they are like the two sides of a coin that makes it a legal tender. There will always be an imbalance when once part is emphasised over to the detriment of the other. People quote Eph 2:8-9 about being saved by grace but forget to include v.10, "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works..." We are saved so that we can bear good fruits. Of what use is salvation if we live our lives like the rest of the world? .

Thank you bro...

5solas:

How you can believe this, especially the last paragraph and still hold that salvation is not of works, beats my imagination.

If what I wrote beats your imagination, then ask the Holy Spirit to enlarge your imagination. Because I said nothing that I didn't back up with clear, self-explanatory scriptures.

We are not saved by works, but we are saved unto good works.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And this;

Titus 3v8 -This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.

We are not saved by works but we are saved unto good works. If a christian does not move on to do good works consistent with Christlikeness after salvation, he will not lose his salvation, but he will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

1Cor 3v15 If any man's work shall be burned, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Every sin is not unto spiritual death (except unbelief); but every sin is unto demotion. Carnality in the life a christian will affect his glorification in the age to come and his greatness in the kingdom of God.

Unchristlikeness is not without cost in this age and in the age to come. Carnal works not repented of will make us suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ, even though it won't cost us eternal life. The scriptures are clear on that.

Rev 3v11 -Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

What you do or don't do can demote you in the kingdom of God and make you lose your crown. Works of the flesh in the life of a believer have consequences in the age to come.

Stop debunking things with word of mouth. Proof things with the scripture. Show me where it is stated either directly or indirectly in the bible that sins have automatic forgiveness whether they are repented of or not. Or that carnality and unchristlikeness will not cost us at the judgment seat of Christ just because we are born again.

Shalom.

God holds no account of sin. Whatever foolish deed a believer does, there are consequences and these consequences you must witness.

God has dealt with sin once and for all. And a true believer (with the right understanding) ought to be above sin bcoz he liveth no more in the flesh but spirit. Spiritual life is a life far above sinfulness. God loves the world (sinners and believers alike) but hates sin. For this very reason he sent His son that grace may abound only to them that believe what His son's death on the cross meant.

Let me explain a bit with the parable of the talent. All the Master's servants are like men and women, sons and daughters from all tribe and race. The talents given to the servants according to their ability are liken to our potentials, gifts, etc according to our capacity. With these potentials and gifts we ought to be fruitful. And except a man is clinged to Christ, he bears no fruit (The true vine). The lazy and wicked servant was not casted out bcoz of the burying of his talent. Rather, bcoz he was not fruitful. No wonder the Master emphatically stated that,

"So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. Matthew 25:27 NKJV.

We're not going to be judged on account of what we did wrong (sins), rather on account of the good we didn't do haven heard the good news of Christ. As sons of God, we're bound to do good. If we don't, then we were never the true sons of God. This is a sure distinction btwn believers and unbelievers.

My pastor told me a story last month and i'll like to share.

He has a son who then was unruly.So anytime he misbehaved,my Pastor would tell him to bring his head so he could "spank" his head.This went on for sometime.



One day,the son misbehaved.
Without asking the son to bring his head so he could give him the usual dose,the son went to him and surrendered his head for the usual spanking.


My pastor was apalled and conscience -stricken.That day,he decided he would not beat him again no matter how serious his offense was.

But guess what.Since the day he decided not to beat him,the son became well-behaved and stopped being belligerent.



That is the power of grace.

What's more.Just over a year ago,i decided to leave my church of 7 years.This particular church is fond of preaching sin consciousness.The more of this preaching i heard,the more hardened i became as a sinner.My new church is grace personified.Yet i lost all desire for sins.To the glory of God,i ve improved tremendously in my christian walk.



I stopped judging men of God since the Lord told me He gave different assignments and mandates to His servants.No two servants have the same mandate.So if the style or content of pastor A's preaching is different from that of pastor B,it doesnt make Pastor A wrong or invalidate pastor B.All should be judged in light of the finished work of Christ.May the Lord continue to reveal the truth of His word to us because some of us think we know,yet we know nothing.

This doctrine is derived from Calvinism/doctrines of grace....thats where these wrong doctrines come from. otherwise everything else is correct, i dont think they are cults, coz they are saved. Kindly check five doctrines of Calvinism, this one hiz preaching now is the fifth one called perseverance of the saints, all five are linked TULIP is the acronym they use. I hv attached a file examining calvanism.
All of us who do not beliv Calvanism beliv Arminianism.].....THIS IS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM

Charisplus:
As 5solas pointed out the message of "once saved always saved" was the one preached by the Reformers. The question now is "what was the cause of the Reformation by Martin Luther? If we have a good understanding of that it will help us on this issue.
The problem often times is that many of us do not even understand what really happened at the new birth in Christ. It is such a profound spiritual experience. The Bible says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the final redemption of the body. I often wonder at those who say after one is saved and commits any sins he ceases to be saved. The Bible says you are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. The gift of God that is what salvation is. So if you lose salvation over every sin committed then God takes back His gift and gives it back over and over as it is believed by some that when you commit sin you lose salvation but get it back after you confess/ do restitution/penance etc. There is no where in the Bible where this back and forth motion of being saved and losing it is found. If salvation was dependent on whether we commit sin or not and keeping laws/rules, then what was the point of Jesus coming to die? There were enough laws under the Old covenant yet after over a thousand years no man was found able to fully keep that law.
If anyone be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away and all things have become new. If someone who is in Christ cannot be sure he is saved then what is the point of Christianity? Every other religion teaches keeping of laws/rules/doing good deeds to obtain "salvation" and even then you are not very sure you can make it. Christianity is the only "religion" that gives that assurance and the reason is because it is not dependent on you or what you do but on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross. It is either you accept that Jesus' work(He died for your sins - present, past and future sins) on the Cross is enough or He has to come to die again or we need another sacrifice for sins!

Very correct!
We don't move with the fear of God leaving behind the Love of God!