₦airaland Forum

Seun:
Only Matthew reports the presence of Roman soldiers at the tomb, despite it being.a big deal. This suggests that Matthew's writer may have fabricated it to support the notion that the body could not have been stolen. Mark contradicts Matthew directly because it says that the women asked themselves who would open the tomb. If they knew that there were soldiers there, they would not have had that discussion. Even Matthew gives the disciples a day to steal the body without being stopped by Roman soldiers. And the disciples could still have stolen the body by just bribing the Roman soldiers if indeed the soldiers were there.

so you believed that the disciple stole the body of someone u didn't believe exist?

Why did Jesus have to go back to the Father anyway? If he was physically resurrected, he could've just continued his ministry on earth. The whole world would have been converted within a few years. To me, the reason is simple: being dead (sorry), he could not continue his ministry.

Seun:
@kingcity: That's a deliberate misrepresentation of my position, which is that even the biblical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is extremely poor. An allegedly empty grave and a bunch of alleged hallucinations does not prove that a rotten corpse came back to life.

Why did Jesus have to go back to the Father anyway? If he was physically ressurected, he could have just continued his ministry on earth. The whole world would have been converted within a few years. To me, the reason is simple: being dead, he could not continue his ministry on earth.

hmmmmmmm

Seunn and religion naa 5n6

Seun:
An allegedly empty grave and a bunch of alleged private visitations, which are hallucinations at best, do not prove that a rotting corpse came back to life.

Why did Jesus have to go back to the Father anyway? If he was physically ressurected, he could have just continued his ministry on earth. The whole world would have been converted within a few years. To me, the reason is simple: being dead, he could not continue his ministry on earth.

like seriously SEUN!

Seun:
Only Matthew reports the presence of Roman soldiers at the tomb, despite it being.a big deal. This suggests that Matthew's writer may have fabricated it to support the notion that the body could not have been stolen. Mark contradicts Matthew directly because it says that the women asked themselves who would open the tomb. If they knew that there were soldiers there, they would not have had that discussion. Even Matthew gives the disciples a day to steal the body without being stopped by Roman soldiers. And the disciples could still have stolen the body by just bribing the Roman soldiers if indeed the soldiers were there.

wow, u talked of bribe!
lets liken this situation to ur early comparison with T.B. Joshua.
first of, d romans hated that Jesus was king so there is no chance they would have collected bribe to let go of christs body as it would have supported d disciples claim
.
second, christ didnt die silently. he had prophesied that he would come back on the third day openly. now if t.b. joshua and/or his followers declare him president/king of nigeria and he is put to death by the government, knowing fully well that he said he will rise if destroyed, dont u think dey will safeguard d tomb to be sure that nothing funny happened?

third, the women wouldnt have known if the soldiers would open the tomb. naturally u dont expect dem to willingly open d tomb so its no coincidence that dey were worried.

Seun:
Why did Jesus have to go back to the Father anyway? If he was physically resurrected, he could've just continued his ministry on earth. The whole world would have been converted within a few years. To me, the reason is simple: being dead, he could not continue his ministry.

if you read your bible well, you will know that he was with the father initially. he only took human body for a purpose (to suffer and die for mankind) and after he had done that, he went back

Seun:
Why did Jesus have to go back to the Father anyway? If he was physically resurrected, he could've just continued his ministry on earth. The whole world would have been converted within a few years. To me, the reason is simple: being dead, he could not continue his ministry.

He's not from here that's why. You forget to realise that He is God, not human. He became us for a while, for a purpose. And the purpose is fulfilled. He said it Himself, "It is finished'.

Harvard13:
If you read your bible well, you will know that he was with the father initially. he only took human body for a purpose (to suffer and die for mankind) and after he had done that, he went back

According to the bible, Jesus was on earth for 33 years before he went to suffer and die for mankind, which you say was his purpose. Spending a few more years preaching openly with his resurrected body to convert the whole world seems like a no-brainer. What has he been doing in heaven for 2000 years that is more important than converting the whole world?

Seun:
According to the bible, Jesus was on earth for 30 years doing basically nothing. And he spent another 3 years preaching before he died. Spending a few more years preaching openly with his ressurected body to convert the whole world seems like a no-brainer. What's he been doing doing in heaven for 2000 years that is more important than converting the whole world?

I don't agree with your statement here
that he was doing nothing

check this


Luke 2: 51 - 52
51Then He went down to Nazareth with them and was subject to them. But His mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.


this doesn't sound like doing nothing

Seun:
According to the bible, Jesus was on earth for 30 years doing basically nothing. And he spent another 3 years preaching before he died. Spending a few more years preaching openly with his ressurected body to convert the whole world seems like a no-brainer. What's he been doing doing in heaven for 2000 years that is more important than converting the whole world?

He don't need to convert the whole world, i thought that was the no-brainer.

Image123:
He don't need to convert the whole world, i thought that was the no-brainer.

I thought the bible says that for God so.loved the world that he gave his only son for salvation. Does Jesus want the whole world to hear him or not? If he wants the whole world to hear him why not tell them about his message himself?

dalaman:
I thought the bible says that for God so.loved the world that he gave his only son for salvation. Does Jesus want the whole world to hear him or not? If he wants the whole world to hear him why not tell them about his message himself?

Yes He did and you need to also appreciate the context. You love your sister, you love your mother, you love your father, you love your wife, you love food, you love sports etc. You cannot do everything for each of these. There are things you can do for your wife you cannot do for your sister. There are things you can do for your mum you cannot do for food. It does not negate the fact that you love food.
Jesus told the world about His message Himself for about three years, with mighty signs and wonders even. They ended up hating Him and ultimately crucifying Him. What is that thing, they say about doing the same thing and expecting something different again? Be a good adviser mr man.

Image123:
Yes He did and you need to also appreciate the context. You love your sister, you love your mother, you love your father, you love your wife, you love food, you love sports etc. You cannot do everything for each of these. There are things you can do for your wife you cannot do for your sister. There are things you can do for your mum you cannot do for food. It does not negate the fact that you love food.
Jesus told the world about His message Himself for about three years, with mighty signs and wonders even. They ended up hating Him and ultimately crucifying Him. What is that thing, they say about doing the same thing and expecting something different again? Be a good adviser mr man.

Jesus did not tell the world about his message. He only told a very tiny part of the middle east(Israel ) assuming the things written about him are true. Jesus being God we are told can do all things besides the fact that he wants to be in a personal relationship with humans. If I want to be in a personal relationship with anybody I will go and woo the person myself. I will not send another person.

dalaman:
Jesus did not tell the world about his message. He only told a very tiny part of the middle east(Israel ) assuming the things written about him are true. Jesus being God we are told can do all things besides the fact that he wants to be in a personal relationship with humans. If I want to be in a personal relationship with anybody I will go and woo the person myself. I will not send another person.

The people He told are a part of the world, humans behave the same. Just like you are behaving, it is the same way the folks in the middle east behaved to Him. Jesus came to the world to woo us already. Then He sent the Holy Spirit and His disciples. Millions of people have come to a personal relationship with Jesus through His means. You siddon and be looking for more efficient means.

Seun:
Why did Jesus have to go back to the Father anyway? If he was physically resurrected, he could've just continued his ministry on earth. The whole world would have been converted within a few years. To me, the reason is simple: being dead, he could not continue his ministry.

repent from your blasphemy..and accept JESUS as ur lord and Saviour...carry ur cross with no shame.This is a warning, you wont say u were never told, cause JESUS Has mark today.Your intelligence wuld not save u on the last day if you refuse

Image123:
The people He told are a part of the world, humans behave the same. Just like you are behaving, it is the same way the folks in the middle east behaved to Him. Jesus came to the world to woo us already. Then He sent the Holy Spirit and His disciples. Millions of people have come to a personal relationship with Jesus through His means. You siddon and be looking for more efficient means.

Because Jesus did not send the message himself christianity has over 33,000 sects today in a free for all fight for who is right and who is wrong. Right beside me here is a seven day adventist publication saying that the Catholic Church is the mother of all Satan. If Jesus preached his message himself all these things will not be happening assuming Jesus is real and not another mythical God men invented.

opineflu:
repent from your blasphemy..and accept JESUS as ur lord and Saviour...carry ur cross with no shame.This is a warning, you wont say u were never told, cause JESUS Has mark today.Your intelligence wuld not save u on the last day if you refuse

Stop warning people with imaginary and mythical punishment. It only makes you look like a wannabe terrorist.

Excellent suggestion! I'm currently reading the book and I'm almost done.

spacyzuma:
You're smart. +1000
If you can, please find and read this amazing book: Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari. You'd learn a lot about humans and how we believe the things we do.

Seun:
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is probably the most important event in Christianity. Apostle Paul said, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (I Cor 15:14). He also said, "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins". Did it really happen, though? Let's look at the evidence.

1. The Empty Tomb And The Men In White

Mark, which was the first gospel to be written, describes the incident in chapter 16:

Is it reasonable to accept this as evidence that Jesus rose from the dead? Let's see.

Jesus was the T B Joshua of his time. He came from a humble background, was loved by the masses because of his miracle ministry, and was hated by the religious establishment which didn't accept him as a true man of God and felt that his teachings were unscriptural.

Now lets imagine that T. B Joshua died, and then 3 days later the 3 women who were closest to him when he was alive in his ministry came to you with this story: That they went to T B Joshua's grave to pray and lay flowers, but when they got there, they saw that the grave had been opened, the body missing and a young guy in a white suit was sitting there. And the guy told them that T B Joshua had risen from the dead.

Would it be reasonable to believe that T B Joshua had risen from the dead on the basis of this testimony? Wouldn't you be suspicious that T B Joshua's body had been stolen by his top pastors to make it appear that he had risen? That the man in white was just an accomplice of the thieves? That maybe the women were hallucinating due to their grief, or simply lying to hype their hero and crush?

Luke's Gospel, written about 10 years later, describes the same incident thus:

Notice how the story has been altered to solve the issues with the first one, and spiced up?

Imagine if, in the hypothetical case of TB Joshua's alleged resurrection, the women who told you about his empty grave came back 10 years later to tell the same story. But this time, instead of a young man in a white suit who was sitting by the grave when they arrived, they claim that there was no one at T B joshua's grave initially and then suddenly, two men in glowing suits as bright as the sun (implying angels) appeared before them and gave them a scriptural lesson. Would those changes make the story more believable to you, or less so?

2. Appearing To His Closest Followers

According to Mark's Gospel,

In short, Jesus' closest followers claimed that he appeared to them at various times after his body went missing. Jesus closest followers had everything to lose by his death, and everything to gain by getting people to believe the resurrection story. They had sold all their posessions and left their families and professions to join Jesus' ministry. With his death, that ministry was finished, but the ressurection story brought it back to life. Knowing about this serious conflict of interest, it reasonable to accept their testimony as evidence that the resurrection actually happened?

If TB Joshua died and the top pastors in his church said he appeared to them, would you believe it for one moment?

3. His Appearance To 500 Believers

According to 1 Corinthians 15:6,

This would seem like the least weak evidence for the resurrection, due to the sheer number of potential witnesses, until you start to wonder why none of the Gospels mentioned it. Not even imaginative Luke of the robes as white as lightening. Why would all the Gospel writers have choosen to leave out what would have been their strongest evidence? 500 witnesses! Because it didn't happen? Because it was too early to tell such a big lie and get away with it? I don't know.

And even if we want to at issume that it happened, we must not forget that it would be quite easy for any illusionist to stage the appearance of Jesus to people who strongly want to believe that he is still alive. Benny Hinn tells a story about Jesus appearing during one of his crusades, and people believe it.

Conclusion:
The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is a bunch of testimonies attributed to people who had every reason to lie during a period when people were far more superstitious and gullible than we are today because they didn't have science. It's not sufficient to convince an objective modern person that a 3 day old corpse whose brain and heart would have decayed considerably actually came back to life, held meetings in person with various people, and then ascended into outer space. Or ... What do you think?

Criticism is in other but outright disingenuousness is sickening. You just displayed that.

JMAN05:
Criticism is in order but outright disingenuousness is sickening. You just displayed that.

Where did I go wrong, in your view? I honestly do believe everything I've said here. The evidence for the resurrection is objectively very weak.

opineflu:
repent from your blasphemy..and accept JESUS as ur lord and Saviour...carry ur cross with no shame.This is a warning, you wont say u were never told, cause JESUS Has mark today.Your intelligence would not save u on the last day if you refuse

Apologies for offending you. I'd rather not offend people if I can help it. But not at the expense of telling the truth.

Image123:
Jesus told the world about His message Himself for about three years, with mighty signs and wonders even. They ended up hating Him and ultimately crucifying Him. What is that thing, they say about doing the same thing and expecting something different again? Be a good adviser mr man.

Do you honestly believe that Jesus in his revived body wouldn't have preached the gospel far more effectively than his disciples with their tale?

robosky02:
I don't agree with your statement here
that he was doing nothing
check this
Luke 2: 51 - 52
51Then He went down to Nazareth with them and was subject to them. But His mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
this doesn't sound like doing nothing

"Growing in stature" and wisdom when you are supposed to be the Eternal Son of God who knows all things is very close to doing nothing.

favouryemmy:
Seun, I understand that you may have gone through some things that made you not to want to believe in God any longer. What many of us do sometimes when things we expect don't happen is that we are fast to blame God. I used to do that before but I realized God is never to blame and I stopped doing so. Jesus will reveal Himself to you again. Even if I don't say it, it will happen. Just remember, you once believed and you can believe again. Just have an open mind when He comes back to do so. Jesus loves you even in your current unbelief.

I know this is meant as a message of goodwill, and I accept it, but believing something that is not true is likely to have bad consequences.

Harvard13:
d romans hated that Jesus was king so there is no chance they would have collected bribe to let go of christs body as it would have supported d disciples claim

The Romans didn't hate Jesus. They thought he was crazy.

third, the women wouldnt have known if the soldiers would open the tomb. naturally u dont expect dem to willingly open d tomb so its no coincidence that dey were worried.

If that was the case, Mark would have said, "the women were worried that the soldiers might not help them to roll away the stone".

kingcity:
so you believed that the disciple stole the body of someone u didn't believe exist?

If we assume that the biblical Jesus was based on a real person, it's far more likely that the body was stolen than that he rose from the dead.

favouryemmy:
Seun, you said no one has refuted your claims. Read this with an open mind http://www.bible.ca/d-resurrection-evidence-Josh-McDowell.htm

Why open mind and not critical mind? I was entirely unconvinced by that. It's not objective at all. Explaining how would take too long.

4everGod1:
Yes! He cannot be termed a proud Atheist if even his name is in contradiction.

Atheists are not obligated to have secular names.

Seun:
Do you honestly believe that Jesus in his revived body wouldn't have preached the gospel far more effectively than his disciples with their tale?

Yep, i believe so. Jesus did many miracles and raised the dead also, yet they did not believe Him. Many would give excuses like you do. They may say He did not die on calvary, or He is not the One or whatever other lazy excuse. With all Jesus' miracles and preaching for three years thereabout, not many people followed Him, yet with His disciples taking over, over 3000 people were added to His followers in a day and continued following. Millions of people have joined the train ever since. Your suggestions are noted,
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

dalaman:
Because Jesus did not send the message himself christianity has over 33,000 sects today in a free for all fight for who is right and who is wrong. Right beside me here is a seven day adventist publication saying that the Catholic Church is the mother of all Satan. If Jesus preached his message himself all these things will not be happening assuming Jesus is real and not another mythical God men invented.

You make this assertion based on assumption as usual. When Jesus gave the message Himself, there were still sects. There were pharisees, sadducees, herodians. There were those that believe He was Elijah etc.

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.

In the world today, people have differing views and understandings about people that are alive. Look at sports and politics for instance and see the arguments. Your suggestions remain insignificant. You may as well suggest to God to make the days 25hrs each for productivity, or make the birds fly lower. He remains not just the wiser than the wisest, but the Only Wise God.

Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

So, Mr Seun...what have you achieved?

Image123:
You make this assertion based on assumption as usual. When Jesus gave the message Himself, there were still sects. There were pharisees, sadducees, herodians. There were those that believe He was Elijah etc.

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.

In the world today, people have differing views and understandings about people that are alive. Look at sports and politics for instance and see the arguments. Your suggestions remain insignificant. You may as well suggest to God to make the days 25hrs each for productivity, or make the birds fly lower. He remains not just the wiser than the wisest, but the Only Wise God.

Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Assuming you are the head of a company and your employees have different views about you that seems to be very conflicting which is affecting the company negatively. I believe you will want to clarify it your self so that the conflicting views will end. Does your God revel in inefficiency? Human systems are not perfect. You claim you have this perfect God that runs a system that is even worse that that of the imperfect humans. Unless if your God is a lover of the confusion and madness that is going on in his name among his followers I see no reason why he should allow this system assuming he exist that is.

dalaman:
Assuming you are the head of a company and your employees have different views about you that seems to be very conflicting which is affecting the company negatively. I believe you will want to clarify it your self so that the conflicting views will end. Does your God revel in inefficiency? Human systems are not perfect. You claim you have this perfect God that runs a system that is even worse that that of the imperfect humans. Unless if your God is a lover of the confusion and madness that is going on in his name among his followers I see no reason why he should allow this system assuming he exist that is.

In this case, it is not affecting the company negatively. The church is marching on, and the primary goal of salvation by grace through faith is being achieved daily. If one person thinks blue is Jesus holy color, and the other says it's white. Those are irrelevancies no one should develop headache over.Millions of sinners have been saved through the way of the Cross. You have no excuse.

Image123:
In this case, it is not affecting the company negatively. The church is marching on, and the primary goal of salvation by grace through faith is being achieved daily. If one person thinks blue is Jesus holy color, and the other says it's white. Those are irrelevancies no one should develop headache over.Millions of sinners have been saved through the way of the Cross. You have no excuse.

Which church exactly is marching on? Is it the Catholic Church or the seven day adventist church? Is it Jehova's witness that is marching on or the Anglican church? Is it the baptist church that is marching on or the Greek othordox church? You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

dalaman:
Which church exactly is marching on? Is it the Catholic Church or the seven day adventist church? Is it Jehova's witness that is marching on or the Anglican church? Is it the baptist church that is marching on or the Greek othordox church? You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about, because if you did, you will know that the church is the Body of Christ. The church is not a particular group or denomination, the church is not a particular set of doctrines or beliefs. The church is the Body of believers universally and individually saved by grace through faith in Jesus the Christ.

Image123:
You clearly do not know what you are talking about, because if you did, you will know that the church is the Body of Christ. The church is not a particular group or denomination, the church is not a particular set of doctrines or beliefs. The church is the Body of believers universally and individually saved by grace through faith in Jesus the Christ.

Give me the name or example of that church in Nigeria for example because every where I turn to all I see are various denominations. I am yet to see this elusive church you are talking about.

dalaman:
Give me the name or example of that church in Nigeria for example because every where I turn to all I see are various denominations. I am yet to see this elusive church you are talking about.

It is not a building in the sense, it is people. Denominations or structures are not saved. Individuals are saved. Whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. Those that believe and receive the gift of eternal life are the church.

Image123:
It is not a building in the sense, it is people. Denominations or structures are not saved. Individuals are saved. Whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. Those that believe and receive the gift of eternal life are the church.

Who mentioned building here. All the various opposing sects I see around Nigeria today and the world as a whole all claim they believe in Jesus and have recieved eternal life. So which one body is the correct body or denomination? Cam you give us a specific example?