chinese8107:
For a 155 howitzer ,Why buy G-5 or similar thing like pic 1?
I would rather use the pic 2 for loe cost solution

Why buy the inferior product. Any case I think it more of a deal with Denel since they sent some SANDF G5 as a sale to some medi east buyer and are just going to replace them. Some one in the Army was like why don't we pay for a upgrade



All so buy a G5 is the cheaper deal since we operate and make them so it helps with spare parts.

chinese8107:


I would choose weight. Air transportablity.

The G7 is still in the work for a light weight 105mm than is air mobil. the 155mm are there for full on conventional where we will need the best of the best.

andrewza:



Why buy the inferior product. Any case I think it more of a deal with Denel since they sent some SANDF G5 as a sale to some medi east buyer and are just going to replace them. Some one in the Army was like why don't we pay for a upgrade



All so buy a G5 is the cheaper deal since we operate and make them so it helps with spare parts.

ok a low cost solution just to make numbers.nothing more

chinese8107:


I would choose weight. Air transportablity.

The days when customers choose cheap over quality are fast coming to an end.

andrewza:


The G7 is still in the work for a light weight 105mm than is air mobil. the 155mm are there for full on conventional where we will need the best of the best.

but there are a bunch of 155mm light weight air mobi howitzer. like m777 not bad quality US and UK choice

frumentius:


Buying 10 platforms hardly sounds like a field test. I also supported it, but at the time(2014) I thought Nigeria had different needs.

Nigerian requirements still remain the same. FOB defence and offensive operations. To deal with these, the Nigerian army would require a system that provides adequate firepower, light & maneuverable, with a decent range. Basically a light Infantry support weapon. I don't see how a cumbersome 40mm mounted on a Samil truck solves this conundrum.


A ZSU-23-2 mounted on a military truck remains the most decent component in a layer of defences.

chinese8107:


but there are a bunch of 155mm light weight air mobi howitzer. like m777 not bad quality US and UK choice

Not cheap inferior Chinese artillery nonsense though.

frumentius:


The days when customers choose cheap over quality are fast coming to an end.

Quality is a loose term. Expensive doesn't mean quality. No matter how you look at it, fielding cost-effective systems in large numbers is a better option for those countries who cannot afford more expensive, sanctions prone equipment.


The Sri-Lankan insurgency which ended a couple years ago is a perfect example where cost-effective wins decisively.

Henry240:


You mean this one? I remember this, and i supported it at the time. However, that's just a field test and nothing heard from it since then. It wasn't practical, the army mounted what looks like a 40mm on a truck.


What i'm actually asking for, is a smaller, litter, more practical solution. A ZSU-23-2 mounted on a vehicle such as a military Sinotruck, with an armoured cabin. Vehicle can be used for FOB defence and offensive operations.


The Russian vehicle sums up my idea.


*I more reason for going for the Sinotruck is, the National Truck Manufacturers (NTM) based in Kano, Northern Nigeria has supplied a decent amount of Sinotrucks to the Nigerian army already.

The Russian 57mm gun in syria

frumentius:


Not cheap inferior Chinese artillery nonsense though.

You'll have a hard time convincing a Sri-Lankan that the Chinese produce in your words "inferior Chinese artillery nonsense".

frumentius:


Not cheap inferior Chinese artillery nonsense though.

I am not selling anything , but Chineses artillery not always inferior and cheap

Saudi use PLZ-45 in yemen and more advanced PLZ-52 developed

Kuwait . Algeria also has it.
.It needs many support vehicles

Henry240:


Quality is a loose term. Expensive doesn't mean quality. No matter how you look at it, fielding cost-effective systems in large numbers is a better option for those countries who cannot afford more expensive, sanctions prone equipment.


The Sri-Lankan insurgency which ended a couple years ago is a perfect example where cost-effective wins decisively.

Yes, to an extent. But for example, Niger fielding 500 of the Chinese Type 83- SPRL Grad is never going to stand up to about Nigeria fielding 100 RM-70.

Not many lessons to be drawn from sri lanka, from a south african perspective at least. they came to us to learn, btw.

chinese8107:


I am not selling anything , but Chineses artillery not always inferior and cheap .It needs many support vehircles

Saudi use PLZ-45 in yemen and more advanced PLZ-52 developed

Kuwait also has PLZ-45

So what? Incompetent militaries buy Chinese goods, so what?
Or do you think I''m also in thrall with China?
Just so you know, I'm South African, and we have a defence industry that your country steals from(proven: I can attach the stories).

frumentius:


So what? Incompetent militaries buy Chinese goods, so what?

Or do you think I''m also in thrall with China?
Just so you know, I'm South African, and we have a defence industry that your country steals from(proven: I can attach the stories).

They compared it with German made PZH-2000,but choose PLZ-45. It's more cost effective.

Not Incompetent military
South Africa has fairly good industry. Many western country do not saction on them.The got many support from the west.I am not a spokeman not nececery arguing with you anything.I think China is more willing cooperate with South Africa.There have been examples like CS/VP3 is bought TOT from South Africa (MLS)

I apologise to the regulars here for my out of character outburst. I just can't stand some of the rubbish.

frumentius:


Yes, to an extent. But for example, Niger fielding 500 of the Chinese Type 83- SPRL Grad is never going to stand up to about Nigeria fielding 100 RM-70.

They don't need to field 500 Type-83, there probably could be better cost-effective options available to them, that can mount a better challenge or could even be better than the RM-70. Say the 105mm Chadian tank destroyer against the ERC-90 from Nigeria.

frumentius:

Not many lessons to be drawn from sri lanka, from a south african perspective at least. they came to us to learn, btw.

Again weapons, we are referring to equipment used. They used primarily Chinese weapons, say 67% of their equipment are Chinese origin.


...Enough of the vitriol.

chinese8107:


I would choose weight. Air transportablity.

By "Air transportabilty" you mean transportable in helicopters or C-130 sized aircraft?

If it is by helicopters then the requirement should be scaled down to 105mm.

The G7 105mm howitzer's IGALA ammunition range pre-fragmented shells can match 155mm shells available on the market in terms of performance[lethality and accuracy(CEP)] and still outrange many.

The weight will also be low compared to 155mm systems.

Less weight and size! Both the gun and projectiles. Enabling you to bring high tonnage of ammunition.

Henry240:
They don't need to field 500 Type-83, there probably could be better cost-effective options available to do that can mount a better challenge or could even be better than the RM-70. Say the 105mm Chadian tank destroyer against the Sagie from Nigeria.





Again weapons, we are referring to equipment used. The used primarily Chinese weapons, say 67% of their equipment are Chinese origin.

Henry, you're agreeing with me. In the first example, regardless of quantity, Niger could never withstand Nigeria. Neither could that matter Tchad or any any other country in West Africa regardless of their assets.

Sri Lanka "won" its war by completely obliterating its enemy, civilians notwithstanding. There's a political price to pay for that, which neither Nigeria nor any other country in Africa could pay.

MikeCZA:
By "Air transportabilty" you mean transportable in helicopters or C-130 sized aircraft?

If it is by helicopters then the requirement should be scaled down to 105mm.

The G7 105mm howitzer's IGALA ammunition range pre-fragmented shells can match 155mm shells available on the market in terms of performance[lethality and accuracy(CEP)] and still outrange many.

The weight will also be low compared to 155mm systems.

Less weight and size! Both the gun and projectiles. Enabling you to bring high tonnage of ammunition.

UK.BAE m777 (XM777) 155mm howitzer helicopter air tranportable. only 4086kg CEP 10m range 30～40km .I think also C-130 tranportable.

Maybe G7 is even lighter more tranportable or more cost effetive. G7 only 3800 kg or lighter some saying ～2500kg. That means with the same weight more ammunition.

-Nigerian Army Airbone soldier posing with a regular Infantry man.



- Nigerian Army Airborne soldier posing with a soldier in a ceremonial outfit

chinese8107:


I am not selling anything , but Chineses artillery not always inferior and cheap

Saudi use PLZ-45 in yemen and more advanced PLZ-52 developed

Kuwait . Algeria also has it.
.It needs many support vehicles

I hear you. But please don't use the incompetent Saudis in Yemen as an example. China sells low quality weapons to most countries. That doesn't mean China cant produce high quality. We - South Africa - since 2010 have been selling low-quality stuff to Africa since 2010.

frumentius:


Henry, you're agreeing with me. In the first example, regardless of quantity, Niger could never withstand Nigeria. Neither could that matter Tchad or any any other country in West Africa regardless of their assets.

Sri Lanka "won" its war by completely obliterating its enemy, civilians notwithstanding. There's a political price to pay for that, which neither Nigeria nor any other country in Africa could pay.

Mr HENRY
(agree)
Let me say to a certain extent I agree and disagree with you at the same time
Case in point in the Battle to recapture Dambo the D- 30? were used ( very good) also in SAMBISA We had the Recently acquired MRL used effectively ( very good) I agree quality has to matter over quantity
disagree
Mandara Mountains and Gwoza ( hilly portions)
The Nigerian Army needs a High quality but light enough arty system that can be easily transported but packs a powerful punch
that has a good enough power to travel at least 20- 30 km - but by the same token can be transported easily at a moment's notice by a select helicopter crew that can winch it with it's crates of either 105mm or 155 mm shells .What we have now are heavy, heavy we cannot transport them except by road or train and I think a complete dismantle would have to take place to fit into our C-130s.

frumentius:


Henry, you're agreeing with me. In the first example, regardless of quantity, Niger could never withstand Nigeria. Neither could that matter Tchad or any any other country in West Africa regardless of their assets.

Sri Lanka "won" its war by completely obliterating its enemy, civilians notwithstanding. There's a political price to pay for that, which neither Nigeria nor any other country in Africa could pay.

We actually aren't on same page. I'm not doing a versus argument. All i'm saying is, cost-effective doesn't mean below-par unlike your argument. Now, because of a certain quantity, Niger and Tchad could pose a significant challenge, hypothetically speaking.

Sri Lanka WON it's war deploying primarily Chinese systems. Now the country can REBUILD regardless of the methods it used.

chinese8107:


UK.BAE m777 (XM777) 155mm howitzer helicopter air tranportable. only 4086kg CEP 10m range 30～40km .I think also C-130 tranportable.

Maybe G7 is even lighter more tranportable or more cost effetive. G7 only 3800 kg or lighter some saying ～2500kg

we don't have a heavy lift helicopter so even the m777 is to heavy. The G5 is ok for us and the T5 will be a good buy to. South Africa will not buy foreigner Artillery. It does not make sense to give other courtiers the money when we can do it our self's. We all so unable to field larg batteries of guns we don't have the man power so if we limited to a few guns they better be the best. All so the G5 is not that expensive the cost is all the extra on it that we would still need know matter what we bought only now we will need to integrate our fire control computer to a brand new gun.

chinese8107:


UK.BAE m777 (XM777) 155mm howitzer helicopter air tranportable. only 4086kg CEP 10m range 30～40km .I think also C-130 tranportable.

Maybe G7 is even lighter more tranportable or more cost effetive.

Yes, it is C-130 transportable.

Keep in mind only heavy helicopters such as the Chinook, CH53 and the V22 tiltrotor aircraft can carry. Unavailable or expensive to acquire for many countries. Atleast the M119 105mm howitzer medium transport helicopters such the Super Puma can carry it. Only drawback is range and accuracy.



The M777 has 30km + maximum range with rocket assisted shells.

Lower rate of fire compared to the G7.

Indeed. The CEP will increase with the range.

chinese8107:


I would choose weight. Air transportablity.

i just saw your comments Mr Mike I would say the Pegasus would f it some of Nigeria's needs it is nothing about the Sino Truck or the Samil Truck (Yes we have them) More to do with Mobility , pinning the enemy down, and make them walk/ retreat through a steel curtain of fire within a time frame of 15 minutes. The Base @ Bosso , NIGER comes to mind , So does Baga, Nigeria, High quality with a GPS system that has pinpoint accuracy and Mobility features, the Two essential features are Mobility , and High quality of precision.

So, the SA Special Forces is looking for a vehicle to complement the Hornet RDRV. Currently they operate the Hornet, Gecko, specialised Mambas & Casspirs and of course the Zumlak. Obviously there's a gap between the Hornet and the Mamba. Now, to plug that gap, they've tested the Navistar SOTV-A & B, which personally I think is not a good choice, as there is the local Denel LMT LM8.

A further spanner in the works is that Denel Mechem is currently busy developing a Casspir 4x4 LAV. My personal vehicle fleet preferences, encompassing both existing platforms and wishes,
pics:

1) Rapid Logistic vehicle: Gecko;
2) Rapid deployment: Hornet;
3) Protected mobility: Denel LMT LM8 and Denel RG-32M Scout/ future Casspir 4x4 LAV; and
4) Light to heavy direct action: Casspir and Zumlak.

Nota Bene: all vehicles currently manufactured locally with modular applications.

...sort of LAV Henry likes. Not quite rapid deployment for SF though.

andrewza:


we don't have a heavy lift helicopter so even the m777 is to heavy. The G5 is ok for us and the T5 will be a good buy to. South Africa will not buy foreigner Artillery. It does not make sense to give other courtiers the money when we can do it our self's. We all so unable to field larg batteries of guns we don't have the man power so if we limited to a few guns they better be the best. All so the G5 is not that expensive the cost is all the extra on it that we would still need know matter what we bought only now we will need to integrate our fire control computer to a brand new gun.

The batteries have been reduced to 6 guns per battery.

As a cost effective measure. During the war in Angola they each battery had 8 guns.

and of course, what SA Special Forces, CSIR, and ARMSCOR were testing recently: I'm still opposed.

Navistar SOTV

frumentius:
...sort of LAV Henry likes. Not quite rapid deployment for SF though.

Only less than 8 men can be carried.

The paras may be considered light infantry. Would great if they vehicles like the RG-32M.

Two of these babies can be swallowed in the belly of the C-130.

They'd compliment the SF Hornets well in direct action roles. Using the paras as a support force.

Henry240:


Sri Lanka WON it's war deploying primarily Chinese systems. Now the country can REBUILD regardless of the methods it used.

no sir

i was in jaffna at the end stages of war.
the war was fought by Israeli weapons except for some small arms sourced from east European countries and few from India , sometime in the war they ran out of ammo stocks when pak**tan supplied it pronto( others couldn't due to human rights issue).

large scale usage of barrel bombs perfected in sri lanka, the areas i visited showed entire buildings destroyed by carpet bombing with barrel bombs especially the incendiary ones.