₦airaland Forum

Seun:
You're right. I'm ignorant of a true relationship with God. So are you. And everybody else. A relationship with an imaginary being can't be true.


I believe in evil. To me, evil is any unnecessary and unjust suffering. Bad people are those who cause others to suffer unnecessarily and unjustly. If by evil you mean Satan, demons, witches and wizards, evil mermaids, blood sucking spirits, ghosts, etc, I don't believe in such nonsense.


Factors responsible for the existence of evil include lack of empathy, desperation, ignorance, poor communication, tribalism, and carelessness.


It depends. Is she intelligent, inquisitive, creative, rational, honest, and kind?

Seun:
You're right. I'm ignorant of a true relationship with God. So are you. And everybody else. A relationship with an imaginary being can't be true.


I believe in evil. To me, evil is any unnecessary and unjust suffering. Bad people are those who cause others to suffer unnecessarily and unjustly. If by evil you mean Satan, demons, witches and wizards, evil mermaids, blood sucking spirits, ghosts, etc, I don't believe in such nonsense.


Factors responsible for the existence of evil include lack of empathy, desperation, ignorance, poor communication, tribalism, and carelessness.


It depends. Is she intelligent, inquisitive, creative, rational, honest, and kind?

Mescopaul:
I've always known that when people don't want to serve God, they hide under the guise of claiming to be atheists. It's just laziness that's the problem of these so-called atheists.

Religion indeed has hurt the world (not just Nigeria), but if you consider the good it has done to man in the light of JESUS every other thing grows dim in the light of his glory and grace.

Atheism is a psychological jargon. You can choose to believe, or not. It doesn't change the fact.

"It's better to play safe: You'ld make a good bargain if you believe on JESUS now, and at last discover that he really do exist rather than refusing him now, only to discover that he actually exists and by then it might be too late."

You wont party forever.
You wont have sex forever.
You wont dress naked forever.
Everything would still end someday.

At that time all these pleasures you treasure would be seen as dung in your eyes.

Speak to a dying shrunken old woman.
Can she ever still treasure having sex all the day? Or dressing nude? Or partying? Or dancing about?
No. She dont even know if there's any pleasure in those things.
All she knows is that her end is near.

It's just that our life on earth and what we're exposed to has made us so myopic. We do not know anything outside our nose.
And we think we knew it all.

Remember Plato's Allegory of the cave?
That's just how we are.

Just do something for me Seun,

Lock up yourself in your room oneday.
Take a Bible. Spread it before you and say:

"God if there is a God. They said you exist and you sent Jesus to die for me. I don't believe this crap (That is if you trully don't). And if this is true, I want you to do anything that would make me believe, else I don't believe it."

Have a nice day.

Seun:
"I've always known that when people don't want to serve Allah, they hide under the guise of claiming to be Christians. It's just laziness that's the problem of these so-called Christians."


What good, apart from creating jobs for pastors and other church workers at a great cost to the intellectual development of humanity?


"Christianity is a psychological jargon. You can choose to believe the Quran, or not. It doesn't change the fact."


"It's better to play safe: You'd make a good bargain if you believe on ALLAH now, and at last discover that he really do exist rather than refusing him now, only to discover that he actually exists and by then it might be too late."


"You won't listen to infidel music forever.
"You won't shave your beard like the infidels forever.
"You won't eat infidel pork sausages forever.
"Everything would still end someday
"At that time all these pleasures you treasure would be seen as dung in your eyes."


She also has memories about the life she lived. If she lived a happy and fruitful life, those memories will continue to give her pride and joy.


The religious world view is more myopic because it claims to have the truth about everything. Science admits that it doesn't know everything.


"Just do something for me, Mesco Paul,

"Lock up yourself in your room one day.
"Take a Quran. Spread it before you and say:
" "Allah if there is Allah. They said you exist and you sent Prophet Muhammad to me. I don't believe this crap (That is if you truly don't). And if this is true, I want you to do anything that would make me believe, else I don't believe it." "

[color=#003300]Note: I wrote this before seeing the above post by idris4r83. My aim is show Mescopaul that he wouldn't be convinced by his own arguments.[/color]

Mescopaul:
Needless to say I couldn't bring you to be convinced as much as I would have done myself.

You might be right.
It doesn't mean that I don't know what and WHO I believe, but my arguements might not have been really indepth enough to convince you.


I do wish you'ld come across one who can actually convince you.

I'm happy I tried.

Seun:
Fair enough. I'm curious about why you wouldn't take a Quran before you, pray to Allah, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you if He exists.

idris4r83:
Seun have u tried reading the Holy qur'an with a clean, unbiased and open mind? If no? Which I guess, pls try and get a copy. Read it and digest it and ponder over it. Am sure Almighty Allah will show you the way cos anybody that strives towards knowing God will surely know God.

Qur'an itself is a miracle, it is unique, it is a guidance to the humanity, no any book on the face of earth has stood the of time like the Holy qur'an. It is the only book on the face of the earth where if u remove a single alphabet it will be detected easily cos God Himself protects it. Tell me pls if there's a book as bulky as qur'an that can be memorized by even a boy of 10years of age if not the Holy qur'an.

Allahu Akbar, I thank God for being a Muslim and may Allah make me die as a muslim. I want you to feel the piece of mind and happiness the soul is constantly yearning for which is to praise it's creator.

It depends. Is she intelligent, inquisitive, creative, rational, honest, and kind?

gaelllic:
@ Seun

Precisely how certain are you that there is no God?

In percentage terms, please.

Seun:
I'm 100% certain that there is no good evidence for the existence of any God or supernatural phenomenon. That's the only claim I feel comfortable making. It's easy to rule out the existence of any all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent God. But a shy, detached God who started the big bang and has done nothing since can't be ruled out 100%. Nor can we completely rule out the existence of an evil God who claims to be benevolent but is only lying. I'm certain enough to live my life without being worried about the possibility. If a God existed and wanted to be worshipped by all mankind, he would provide good evidence. I can say that I am 0% certain that God exists, but that's not what you asked for.

gaelllic:
It's easy to rule out the existence of any all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent God. Briefly do so please. Just the bullet points'll be fine.

Seun:
Such a God could have created a universe without evil (suffering). Being all-knowing, he knows how to do it. Being all-powerful, he has the power to do it. Being benevolent, he wants to do it. Yet we have a world filled with awful suffering. So no such God exists. The problem of evil.

Seun:
Such a God could have created a universe without evil (suffering). Being all-knowing, he knows how to do it. Being all-powerful, he has the power to do it. Being benevolent, he wants to do it. Yet we have a world filled with awful suffering. So no such God exists. The problem of evil.

chisco82:
Stop all these ur rubish talk, know it that God exist. And for creating world full of evil be never did.
He created a perfect universe not untill man Man disobeyed(Genesis 1~3) and lost his authority to the devil who only came but to kill, steal and destroy(John 10:10) . Know This "God does not tamper with our WILL" Deutronomy 30:15~20. He set before us life and death....You are allowed to make ur own choice just as you have been blindfolded with unbelieve and has choosen to believe that there is no God.

Seun:
Owning a Quran is a potential death sentence. One could be murdered by a righteous mob for damaging it by mistake. It's not worth the risk!


Dude, you really need to read The History of the Quran. Some of the facts there will shock you if you truly believe the above.


Thanks, but what you said about the soul's yearning to praise it's creator reminds me of this video by an American atheist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE

gaelllic:
Alright.

PREAMBLE

Look. You sound a reasonably bright dude. But, not uncommonly among this type, your mind is mostly an accounting machine gathering numbers. No depth, no shade, no real sophistication, no colour. Just processor speed. So we'll have to do this slowly. I don't quite mean to offend, it's just what it is. Preamble done.

Now.

You do understand that, concerning any given system, one cannot pronounce on what is (wholly) good or (wholly) evil without a total knowledge of that system's workings?

E.g. If we eradicated flies for their nuisance, we'd inflict damage on the earth's biosystem. Damage that would occur as an eventual surprise if we did this prior to our current knowledge of bio-dependence.

You do understand, therefore, that one would require total knowledge of the universe to pronounce definitively on the (whole) good or (whole) evil of any event at all?

Thus you do understand that Omniscience alone can even rule on the matter of whether this or that thing is good or evil to begin with?

The case is mere logic, you understand?

Seun:
Owning a Quran is a potential death sentence. One could be murdered by a righteous mob for damaging it by mistake. It's not worth the risk!


Dude, you really need to read The History of the Quran. Some of the facts there will shock you if you truly believe the above.


Thanks, but what you said about the soul's yearning to praise it's creator reminds me of this video by an American atheist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE

idris4r83:
u find it hard to read the contents of the qur'an, ... Before you condemn a book, try and read it.

And again on the concept of God, if I ask you who created nairaland, what would be your answer? If your answer is Seun Osewa, then think again. How would Seun Osewa be the god of nairaland? Nairaland just sprung up spontaneously by accident, doesn't it sound ridiculous. If nairaland cannot originates itself by accident, if planes, cars, houses have their manufacturers how comes man's own is different?

Seun:
I have been trying to read it from this website: www.clearquran.com. It's just so boring. At least the bible is funny, if nothing else.


Some facts sound ridiculous to people who lack scientific knowledge. For example, the fact that the earth is round, and the fact that the earth moves round the sun, used to seem ridiculous. It's time for you to learn about evolution from the best explainer in the world, Richard Dawkins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNhtbmXzIaM (it's mostly a question and answer session and the students include Christians and Muslims)

Seun:
Religious People Are Suffering & They Need Our Help

People often ask outspoken atheists why they like to argue with religious people. "If you don't believe in God", they ask, "why do you spend so much time attacking people's religious beliefs?" They often respond by saying, "religious people keep trying to impose their religious beliefs on us through evangelism and politics, so we have to defend ourselves." Atheists who don't feel threatened usually choose to remain silent. I used to be a pretty quiet atheist myself, until I noticed something about religious people that I hadn't noticed before. Religious people are suffering!

Religion is not a harmless delusion. It's not a benign folly that merely wastes people's time. It's a malignant malady that systematically robs the majority of humanity of their freedom, pleasure, joy, comfort, knowledge, intelligence, health, money, lives, and much more. It would be selfish of us as atheists who are free from religion not to make every effort to free people from religion so that they can have much better lives.

Many religious people are not allowed to have blood transfusions. This means thousands of religious men, women and children have died from treatable medical conditions, such as pregnancies with any kind of complications, non-fatal car accidents, treatable gunshot wounds, etc. simply because they are not allowed to accept blood transfusions. So many children have become orphans needlessly; so many men and women became widows and widowers; so many fathers and mothers lost their children. All because of a religious rule that make no sense at all.

Many religious people are forbidden by their religions from enjoying most of the good things in life. Things like secular or instrumental music, fine art, poetry, sculpture, owning dogs, wearing make-up, friendship with the opposite sex, eating ram meat, eating sausages, pleasuring yourself or the opposite sex, watching fantasy movies or reading fantasy novels like harry potter, making friends outside the religion, dancing, tattoos, playing ludo because it relies on luck, barbie dolls, sexy clothes etc. Can you imagine what your life would be like if you had to forgo most of these wonderful things? Horribly boring. You'd probably kill yourself. I guess that's why many religious people are violent.

Most religious people believe in the afterlife. As a result, instead of focusing on the current life and making it as enjoyable as possible for themselves, their friends, and family members, they often endure miserable lives in the hope that they'll be rewarded after they die. An extreme case of this is the case of suicide bombers and religious fighters who embrace violent deaths for the sake of an imaginary paradise.

Many religious people are pressured to give a sizable proportion of their income to the religious establishments they worship with. Poor people are taught that the best way to get rich is not to save their money and invest in education and entrepreneurship, but to "sow" it by giving it to their rich religious leaders who will use it to live flamboyantly, and build religious monuments to attract more cash cows. When this stupid idea of "sowing"doesn't make the poor people rich, they are told that it's because they don't have faith, have sin in their lives, etc.

Many religious people are made to believe that the secret to good health and healing is prayer, having been brainwashed by dishonest sermons and misleading testimonies. When they have health problems, instead of going to good hospitals, they embark on prayer and fasting. When their friends slump due to heart attacks or strokes or seizures, they start praying on them instead of rushing them to good hospitals where they can get competent medical help. People have died of curable diseases like malaria because they didn't accept treatment until it was too late.

Many religious people are tolerant and liberal by nature, but due to certain verses in their holy scriptures, they feel that they must be intolerant of various groups of people that God supposedly doesn't like, such as lesbians and transexuals. They are against abortion, which they think is murder, but also against sex education, which reduces abortion rates dramatically, because they think it may encourage premarital safe sex. As a result their daughters end up getting pregnant outside wedlock, having illegal abortions, and dying despite their opposition to abortion.

Many religious people are women, and it sucks to be them because the scriptures of the major religions are clearly sexist. One scripture claims that women must be quiet and submit to men because man were created first and woman came from man, which is rather suspicious because in real life it's women who give birth to men. Another scripture proudly asserts that woman are deficient in intelligence and piety. There are almost no female prophets, apostles or disciples. The few famous women in major scriptures are famous not for personal exploits but for giving birth to important men, marrying them, or leading them astray (Eve, Jezebel). Religious women can't live up to their full potential.

And don't even get me started on the horrible treatment of "demon-possessed" people (the mentally ill) and "child witches".

Clearly, religious people are suffering. Our parents, siblings, and children. Our friends, crushes, and admirers. Our colleague, bosses, and employees. To save them, we who are atheists must come out of our closets and start speaking out; challenging them and educating them.

Seun:
Religious People Are Suffering & They Need Our Help

People often ask outspoken atheists why they like to argue with religious people. "If you don't believe in God", they ask, "why do you spend so much time attacking people's religious beliefs?" They often respond by saying, "religious people keep trying to impose their religious beliefs on us through evangelism and politics, so we have to defend ourselves." Atheists who don't feel threatened usually choose to remain silent. I used to be a pretty quiet atheist myself, until I noticed something about religious people that I hadn't noticed before. Religious people are suffering!

Religion is not a harmless delusion. It's not a benign folly that merely wastes people's time. It's a malignant malady that systematically robs the majority of humanity of their freedom, pleasure, joy, comfort, knowledge, intelligence, health, money, lives, and much more. It would be selfish of us as atheists who are free from religion not to make every effort to free people from religion so that they can have much better lives.

Many religious people are not allowed to have blood transfusions. This means thousands of religious men, women and children have died from treatable medical conditions, such as pregnancies with any kind of complications, non-fatal car accidents, treatable gunshot wounds, etc. simply because they are not allowed to accept blood transfusions. So many children have become orphans needlessly; so many men and women became widows and widowers; so many fathers and mothers lost their children. All because of a religious rule that make no sense at all.

Many religious people are forbidden by their religions from enjoying most of the good things in life. Things like secular or instrumental music, fine art, poetry, sculpture, owning dogs, wearing make-up, friendship with the opposite sex, eating ram meat, eating sausages, pleasuring yourself or the opposite sex, watching fantasy movies or reading fantasy novels like harry potter, making friends outside the religion, dancing, tattoos, playing ludo because it relies on luck, barbie dolls, sexy clothes etc. Can you imagine what your life would be like if you had to forgo most of these wonderful things? Horribly boring. You'd probably kill yourself. I guess that's why many religious people are violent.

Most religious people believe in the afterlife. As a result, instead of focusing on the current life and making it as enjoyable as possible for themselves, their friends, and family members, they often endure miserable lives in the hope that they'll be rewarded after they die. An extreme case of this is the case of suicide bombers and religious fighters who embrace violent deaths for the sake of an imaginary paradise.

Many religious people are pressured to give a sizable proportion of their income to the religious establishments they worship with. Poor people are taught that the best way to get rich is not to save their money and invest in education and entrepreneurship, but to "sow" it by giving it to their rich religious leaders who will use it to live flamboyantly, and build religious monuments to attract more cash cows. When this stupid idea of "sowing"doesn't make the poor people rich, they are told that it's because they don't have faith, have sin in their lives, etc.

Many religious people are made to believe that the secret to good health and healing is prayer, having been brainwashed by dishonest sermons and misleading testimonies. When they have health problems, instead of going to good hospitals, they embark on prayer and fasting. When their friends slump due to heart attacks or strokes or seizures, they start praying on them instead of rushing them to good hospitals where they can get competent medical help. People have died of curable diseases like malaria because they didn't accept treatment until it was too late.

Many religious people are tolerant and liberal by nature, but due to certain verses in their holy scriptures, they feel that they must be intolerant of various groups of people that God supposedly doesn't like, such as lesbians and transexuals. They are against abortion, which they think is murder, but also against sex education, which reduces abortion rates dramatically, because they think it may encourage premarital safe sex. As a result their daughters end up getting pregnant outside wedlock, having illegal abortions, and dying despite their opposition to abortion.

Many religious people are women, and it sucks to be them because the scriptures of the major religions are clearly sexist. One scripture claims that women must be quiet and submit to men because man were created first and woman came from man, which is rather suspicious because in real life it's women who give birth to men. Another scripture proudly asserts that woman are deficient in intelligence and piety. There are almost no female prophets, apostles or disciples. The few famous women in major scriptures are famous not for personal exploits but for giving birth to important men, marrying them, or leading them astray (Eve, Jezebel). Religious women can't live up to their full potential.

And don't even get me started on the horrible treatment of "demon-possessed" people (the mentally ill) and "child witches".

Clearly, religious people are suffering. Our parents, siblings, and children. Our friends, crushes, and admirers. Our colleague, bosses, and employees. To save them, we who are atheists must come out of our closets and start speaking out; challenging them and educating them.

Seun:
I have been trying to read it from this website: www.clearquran.com. It's just so boring. At least the bible is funny, if nothing else.


Some facts sound ridiculous to people who lack scientific knowledge. For example, the fact that the earth is round, and the fact that the earth moves round the sun, used to seem ridiculous. It's time for you to learn about evolution from the best explainer in the world, Richard Dawkins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNhtbmXzIaM (it's mostly a question and answer session and the students include Christians and Muslims)

idris4r83:
what I came to understand is that there's no proof in evolution because of the obviously missing links. It has to be believed, therefore it is a faith, therefore it is a religion! Think again Mr Seun.

What makes Islam perfect is that the qur'an is enough proof to show us that it is the religion of truth and nothing but the truth.

Seun:
It's just science. The same science that is the foundation of all the technology we rely on and the medical knowledge that keeps us healthy.

If the Quran was perfect, it would be more interesting than Game of Thrones and Harry Potter. More scientifically accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica. More humanitarian than the universal declaration of human rights. It wouldn't inspire people to do evil in God's name.

Seun:
Religious People Are Suffering & They Need Our Help

People often ask outspoken atheists why they like to argue with religious people. "If you don't believe in God", they ask, "why do you spend so much time attacking people's religious beliefs?" They often respond by saying, "religious people keep trying to impose their religious beliefs on us through evangelism and politics, so we have to defend ourselves." Atheists who don't feel threatened usually choose to remain silent. I used to be a pretty quiet atheist myself, until I noticed something about religious people that I hadn't noticed before. Religious people are suffering!

Religion is not a harmless delusion. It's not a benign folly that merely wastes people's time. It's a malignant malady that systematically robs the majority of humanity of their freedom, pleasure, joy, comfort, knowledge, intelligence, health, money, lives, and much more. It would be selfish of us as atheists who are free from religion not to make every effort to free people from religion so that they can have much better lives.

Many religious people are not allowed to have blood transfusions. This means thousands of religious men, women and children have died from treatable medical conditions, such as pregnancies with any kind of complications, non-fatal car accidents, treatable gunshot wounds, etc. simply because they are not allowed to accept blood transfusions. So many children have become orphans needlessly; so many men and women became widows and widowers; so many fathers and mothers lost their children. All because of a religious rule that make no sense at all.

Many religious people are forbidden by their religions from enjoying most of the good things in life. Things like secular or instrumental music, fine art, poetry, sculpture, owning dogs, wearing make-up, friendship with the opposite sex, eating ram meat, eating sausages, pleasuring yourself or the opposite sex, watching fantasy movies or reading fantasy novels like harry potter, making friends outside the religion, dancing, tattoos, playing ludo because it relies on luck, barbie dolls, sexy clothes etc. Can you imagine what your life would be like if you had to forgo most of these wonderful things? Horribly boring. You'd probably kill yourself. I guess that's why many religious people are violent.

Most religious people believe in the afterlife. As a result, instead of focusing on the current life and making it as enjoyable as possible for themselves, their friends, and family members, they often endure miserable lives in the hope that they'll be rewarded after they die. An extreme case of this is the case of suicide bombers and religious fighters who embrace violent deaths for the sake of an imaginary paradise.

Many religious people are pressured to give a sizable proportion of their income to the religious establishments they worship with. Poor people are taught that the best way to get rich is not to save their money and invest in education and entrepreneurship, but to "sow" it by giving it to their rich religious leaders who will use it to live flamboyantly, and build religious monuments to attract more cash cows. When this stupid idea of "sowing"doesn't make the poor people rich, they are told that it's because they don't have faith, have sin in their lives, etc.

Many religious people are made to believe that the secret to good health and healing is prayer, having been brainwashed by dishonest sermons and misleading testimonies. When they have health problems, instead of going to good hospitals, they embark on prayer and fasting. When their friends slump due to heart attacks or strokes or seizures, they start praying on them instead of rushing them to good hospitals where they can get competent medical help. People have died of curable diseases like malaria because they didn't accept treatment until it was too late.

Many religious people are tolerant and liberal by nature, but due to certain verses in their holy scriptures, they feel that they must be intolerant of various groups of people that God supposedly doesn't like, such as lesbians and transexuals. They are against abortion, which they think is murder, but also against sex education, which reduces abortion rates dramatically, because they think it may encourage premarital safe sex. As a result their daughters end up getting pregnant outside wedlock, having illegal abortions, and dying despite their opposition to abortion.

Many religious people are women, and it sucks to be them because the scriptures of the major religions are clearly sexist. One scripture claims that women must be quiet and submit to men because man were created first and woman came from man, which is rather suspicious because in real life it's women who give birth to men. Another scripture proudly asserts that woman are deficient in intelligence and piety. There are almost no female prophets, apostles or disciples. The few famous women in major scriptures are famous not for personal exploits but for giving birth to important men, marrying them, or leading them astray (Eve, Jezebel). Religious women can't live up to their full potential.

And don't even get me started on the horrible treatment of "demon-possessed" people (the mentally ill) and "child witches".

Clearly, religious people are suffering. Our parents, siblings, and children. Our friends, crushes, and admirers. Our colleague, bosses, and employees. To save them, we who are atheists must come out of our closets and start speaking out; challenging them and educating them.