UyiIredi:


The universe is ordered not chaotic. There is evidence e from fine-tuning about Grand Design and such designer is uncaused.

Fine-tuned, right? Over 99% of it is empty space.

peacesamuel94:


You claim to admit ignorance , but your atheistic stand contradicts this, You do not know how the universe came to be, yet you are so sure that it was not created, even to extent of confidently parading yourselves as atheists.
Your overconfidence in God's inexistence goes to show that you have a better explanation on how the world came to be.

If you're sure it was created then provide proof.

CoolUsername:


If you're sure it was created then provide proof.

That's not the purpose of this thread, meanwhile I've seen theists on this forum going to great lengths to provide proofs, one of which includes, creating countless number of threads to prove God's existence, and at the end of the day, atheists label them as ridiculous claims..... why should mine make any difference?

This thread was created to subject the atheistic stance under scrutiny, If you claim that all the answers provided so far, were fabricated and are lies, then tell us the the Truth, and how you knew it to be the truth.

peacesamuel94:



That's not the purpose of this thread, meanwhile I've seen theists on this forum going to great lengths to provide proofs, one of which includes, creating countless number of threads to prove God's existence, and at the end of the day, atheists label them as ridiculous claims..... why should mine make any difference?

This thread was created to subject the atheistic stance under scrutiny, If you claim that all the answers provided so far, were fabricated and are lies, then tell us the the Truth, and how you knew it to be the truth.

When did I say that I will tell you where the Universe comes from?

Didn't your topic ask why were have laws governing our Universe? Didn't you see where I said that laws are simply descriptive?

Your entire argument has changed now. Why don't you give my first post a good read through one more time?

CoolUsername:


When did I say that I will tell you where the Universe comes from?

Didn't your topic ask why were have laws governing our Universe? Didn't you see where I said that laws are simply descriptive?

Your entire argument has changed now. Why don't you give my first post a good read through one more time?

Nothing has changed about the argument. The summary of the reply you gave was "that you do not know"
That's why I asked why your actions and your claims seem to be contradictory

peacesamuel94:


Nothing has changed about the argument. The summary of the reply you gave was "that you do not know"
That's why I asked why your actions and your claims seem to be contradictory

lol not really
The theistic claims sound ridiculous
Plus there are over a thousand thiestic claims
From Yahweh to oduduwa
So we honestly don't know yet

jonbellion:
lol not really The theistic claims sound ridiculous Plus there are over a thousand thiestic claims From Yahweh to oduduwa So we honestly don't know yet

So does this justify becoming a atheist?

peacesamuel94:


So does this justify becoming a atheist?

lol I'm agnostic

peacesamuel94:


Nothing has changed about the argument. The summary of the reply you gave was "that you do not know"
That's why I asked why your actions and your claims seem to be contradictory

All descriptions of a personal god which is the one perpetrated by most religions are categorically false for various reasons that I won't cover here.

The impersonal First Cause is an unfalsifiable claim. Now, what I asked was, how can you describe an apathetic creative force as a god? Also, I asked why the Universe would need a First Cause if that entity itself is uncaused.

Maybe you should try answering those, first.

CoolUsername:


All descriptions of a personal god which is the one perpetrated by most religions are categorically false for various reasons that I won't cover here.

The impersonal First Cause is an unfalsifiable claim. Now, what I asked was, how can you describe an apathetic creative force as a god? Also, I asked why the Universe would need a First Cause if that entity itself is uncaused.

Maybe you should try answering those, first.

what makes you think that the creative force was apathetic? Are you aware that the force you are referring to as apathetic is also responsible for the creation of life, as well as complex animals with emotions such as humans. How could something "impersonal" as you call it come up with something so organized.

Like I said before God predated time, and does not need to be caused to exist.

peacesamuel94:


what makes you think that the creative force was apathetic? Are you aware that the force you are referring to as apathetic is also responsible for the creation of life, as well as complex animals with emotions such as humans. How could something "impersonal" as you call it come up with something so organized.

Like I said before God predated time, and does not need to be caused to exist.

Because every other description completely misses the mark.

A god with any interest in humanity would not make almost 100% of the Universe uninhabitable for them. The god would not cover 75% of the only known inhabitable planet with undrinkable water. But these are the things that we see around us. That is inconsistent with a personal god and hence, falsifies that assertion.

CoolUsername:

Fine-tuned, right? Over 99% of it is empty space.

I'm talking about the material aspect not the empty space.

peacesamuel94:


what makes you think that the creative force was apathetic? Are you aware that the force you are referring to as apathetic is also responsible for the creation of life, as well as complex animals with emotions such as humans. How could something "impersonal" as you call it come up with something so organized.

Like I said before God predated time, and does not need to be caused to exist.

How do you even predate time??

Time started ticking when the Big Bang happened, so why can't the precursor to the Universe also predate time? If that's even possible.

CoolUsername:


How do you even predate time??

Time started ticking when the Big Bang happened, so why can't the precursor to the Universe also predate time? If that's even possible.

You guys never tire repeating this tautology about you God preceding time. Time is inseparable from space, so time began when space ( the universe) began. Without space there can not be time.
It is like saying water preceded hydrogen, without hydrogen there can never be water.

UyiIredi:


I'm talking about the material aspect not the empty space.

The material aspect is not fine tuned to anything. What we have is infinite possibilities or probabilities, and your so called fine tuning is just one of the possibilities.
The material universe is a very chaotic place.

CoolUsername:


Because every other description completely misses the mark.

A god with any interest in humanity would not make almost 100% of the Universe uninhabitable for them. The god would not cover 75% of the only known inhabitable planet with undrinkable water. But these are the things that we see around us. That is inconsistent with a personal god and hence, falsifies that assertion.

I choose to take this as another proof, if other humans were discovered in other planets, then it would have been easy to debunk religion, considering the Fact that the Bible recorded the creation of man on earth alone, so theists believe that existence of human life is exclusive to earth alone.


If earth's ability to support life was as a result of coincidence, then I think it should be a usual occurrence in other planets...
or what do you think?

wirinet:

You guys never tire repeating this tautology about you God preceding time. Time is inseparable from space, so time began when space ( the universe) began. Without space there can not be time.
It is like saying water preceded hydrogen, without hydrogen there can never be water.

If water were to be a human invention,then it would be sensible to say that the Inventor of water predated water.
The Inventor of water is not a component of water and is not subject to the processes that lead to the formation of water.

God is not a component of the universe, He did not only predate time but created it, and hence is not subject to it.

peacesamuel94:



I choose to take this as another proof, if other humans were discovered in other planets, then it would have been easy to debunk religion, considering the Fact that the Bible recorded the creation of man on earth alone, so theists believe that existence of human life is exclusive to earth alone.


If earth's ability to support life was as a result of coincidence, then I think it should be a usual occurrence in other planets...
or what do you think?

The creation of other planets was never recorded in the Bible, either.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue about the Bible.

Time and time again we've seen animals thrive and go extinct from our fossil record. So what makes you so sure that man is at the centre stage? We're not the most recent evolutionary split. A lot of animals outnumber us without the problem of overpopulation. There's no reason to think of ourselves as the 'goal' of our 14 billion year old Universe when we've existed for only about 10,000.

CoolUsername:


Because every other description completely misses the mark.

A god with any interest in humanity would not make almost 100% of the Universe uninhabitable for them. The god would not cover 75% of the only known inhabitable planet with undrinkable water. But these are the things that we see around us. That is inconsistent with a personal god and hence, falsifies that assertion.

If you say 75% of the world is covered by undrinkable watet and seem to think that is proof that God does not exist then you have a problem and are not in any way scientifically inclined.

What do you think is the purpose of the oceans and seas? You think they are just there?

The earth needs to be sustained hence the seas and the water from the sea evaporates and then condenses as rain clouds which fall back to the earth thereby feeding the rivers and streams with drinkable water that go through a filteration process.

This is the order just in case you do not know....Without rain there would be no seas and without the seas the earth would cease to function for all the living things found therein. I think you need to revisit your science books because you missed this memo.

There is a fine tuning of the things we see around us as all of them depend on the other to be relevant. Unless you also want to claim that the oceans and seas also evolved and chose to work with th sun to cause evaporation and condensation and then pour itself down to the earth again as much needed rain.

CoolUsername:


The creation of other planets was never recorded in the Bible, either.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue about the Bible.

Time and time again we've seen animals thrive and go extinct from our fossil record. So what makes you so sure that man is at the centre stage? We're not the most recent evolutionary split. A lot of animals outnumber us without the problem of overpopulation. There's no reason to think of ourselves as the 'goal' of our 14 billion year old Universe when we've existed for only about 10,000.

Simply because other planets were not mentioned in the Bible should let you know that they are not the focus of God. The Earth which habours life is His focus.

Why should he be bothered about empty planets whom many scientists initially thought had no purpose initially but have now started to discover their roles.

e.g Jupiter...this huge planet acts as a body guard to earth as it receives mega hits from meteors which break them down to smaller chunks and these smaller chunks combust and fizzle out when they encounter our atmosphere hence preserving earth otherwise if one of the huge chunks of rocks that hit Jupiter should hit earth then its goodbye to you.

So if the you say the earth is billions of years old how do you think it was preserved and not obliterated for this long? You need to read up on Jupiters role and how it had saved earth loads of times from imminent obliteration.

wirinet:

The material aspect is not fine tuned to anything. What we have is infinite possibilities or probabilities, and your so called fine tuning is just one of the possibilities.
The material universe is a very chaotic place.

We have evidence of fine-tuning given parameters such as the nuclear forces required for the universe to exist. What is the evidence of these infinite probabilities ?

peacesamuel94:


If water were to be a human invention,then it would be sensible to say that the Inventor of water predated water.
The Inventor of water is not a component of water and is not subject to the processes that lead to the formation of water.

God is not a component of the universe, He did not only predate time but created it, and hence is not subject to it.

If water were a human invention, it would be senseless to believe that the components of water that is hydrogen and oxygen predated the inventor. Your God cannot predate the components of the universe because your God cannot first create the materials for inventing the universe and then the actual universe.

In digressing a little, it seems your God Yahweh is a fugitive from mankind, he is always running when man attempts to find him. When the mountains were his abode, Moses and other mounbtain climbers went looking for him in the mountains, after a brief encounter he ran away from the mountains and relocated to the heavens beyond the mountains and beyond the clouds. When men then buillt a tower at Babel to reach his abode, he got scared and destroyed the tower and scattered their languages, so they cannot attempt to build a tower again. He then ran away and relocated to outerspace. When Yuri Gagarin and other defied earth's gravity and ventured into outer space, Yahweh got scared again and relocated beyond the solar system. Now that NASA has put the Hubble Space Telescope in space that is capaple of seeing beyond the solar system and in fact capable of seeing the edge of space and time, Yahweh has hereby ran away again and relocated beyond space and time.

Na Wa o, why is Yahweh always on the run?

UyiIredi:


We have evidence of fine-tuning given parameters such as the nuclear forces required for the universe to exist. What is the evidence of these infinite probabilities ?

If you are talking about the material universe, only one of those infinie parameter can be fine tune to produce matter. The other infinite parameters would not produce matter but the universe would remain in its infinite energy state.
It is more like life, out of the infinite number of chemical reactions - both organic and inorganic, only one combination is capable of producing the DNA (life), it did not mean infinite other combinations did not take place before the fine tuned one for life.

wirinet:


If water were a human invention, it would be senseless to believe that the components of water that is hydrogen and oxygen predated the inventor. Your God cannot predate the components of the universe because your God cannot first create the materials for inventing the universe and then the actual universe.

In digressing a little, it seems your God Yahweh is a fugitive from mankind, he is always running when man attempts to find him. When the mountains were his abode, Moses and other mounbtain climbers went looking for him in the mountains, after a brief encounter he ran away from the mountains and relocated to the heavens beyond the mountains and beyond the clouds. When men then buillt a tower at Babel to reach his abode, he got scared and destroyed the tower and scattered their languages, so they cannot attempt to build a tower again. He then ran away and relocated to outerspace. When Yuri Gagarin and other defied earth's gravity and ventured into outer space, Yahweh got scared again and relocated beyond the solar system. Now that NASA has put the Hubble Space Telescope in space that is capaple of seeing beyond the solar system and in fact capable of seeing the edge of space and time, Yahweh has hereby ran away again and relocated beyond space and time.

Na Wa o, why is Yahweh always on the run?

God has never been on the run, however your perception of Him makes it seem so,
that's why you are desperately trying to twist the scriptures to paint the wrong picture of who God really is.

No one ever said He lived in the mountains, sky, or even outerspace, The Bible recorded that he existed before the creation of the heavens as well as the heavenly bodies.
.....so tell me where was He living before then?

If you view God as being far away and always on the run he definitely will be.
But it seems this your freethinking of a thing is confined to religion or should I say Christianity alone, You believe there are other planets even when you've not actually seen them except with the aid of telescopes, have you ever wondered if the things your telescope show you are real? .......as long as it sounds scientific then it's true.


God does not need to appear physically to prove his existence, the world He created is enough, and even if He does people will still doubt. People believe what they choose to believe not what you prove to them.

peacesamuel94:



God has never been on the run, however your perception of Him makes it seem so,
that's why you are desperately trying to twist the scriptures to paint the wrong picture of who God really is.

No one ever said He lived in the mountains, sky, or even outerspace, The Bible recorded that he existed before the creation of the heavens as well as the heavenly bodies.
.....so tell me where was He living before then?

During the exodus Yahweh lived in mount Sinai, that was why moses needed to go up the mountains anytime he wanted to consult with him and when he received the tablets containing the commandments.

Exodus 15 - 18
15 Then Moses went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.16Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. 17The sight of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel. 18So Moses went into the midst of the cloud and went up into the mountain. And Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights

Yahweh like other tribal Gods like Allah, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl etc like in the mountains before men climbed the mountains looking for them.

If you view God as being far away and always on the run he definitely will be.
But it seems this your freethinking of a thing is confined to religion or should I say Christianity alone, You believe there are other planets even when you've not actually seen them except with the aid of telescopes, have you ever wondered if the things your telescope show you are real? .......as long as it sounds scientific then it's true.

You people can turn logic on its head. I see Mars, Jupiter, Venus through a telescope and you still insist i should doubt their existence because i used an optical aid and not my naked eyes. In the same vain, i should not believe all i see because i use glasses. I should also not believe in bacteria or amoeba because i can only see them with the aid of a microscope. Besides, i can see Venus and mercury with my naked eyes.

If you believe science is false, why use things created with the same scientific principles you hate so much? Why watch TV? why surf the internet? why take vaccines? You should reject all things science and remain frozen in first century palestine (jesus's period).

God does not need to appear physically to prove his existence, the world He created is enough, and even if He does people will still doubt. People believe what they choose to believe not what you prove to them.

If your God can appear to thousands of israelites in the mountains to prove his existence, why is afraid to appear to Nigerians physically to prove his existence? If he should give us the same spectacle the purportedly gave the israelites, who will doubt his existence;

Exodus 19
9 The Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the Lord what the people had said.

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain[b] trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

wirinet:


During the exodus Yahweh lived in mount Sinai, that was why moses needed to go up the mountains anytime he wanted to consult with him and when he received the tablets containing the commandments.

Yahweh like other tribal Gods like Allah, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl etc like in the mountains before men climbed the mountains looking for them.

His constant appearance to Moses at mount Sinai does not in any way suggest that He lived there, then how do you envision his appearance to him in the form of a burning bush? I sincerely hope you are kidding.









ou people can turn logic on its head. I see Mars, Jupiter, Venus through a telescope and you still insist i should doubt their existence because i used an optical aid and not my naked eyes. In the same vain, i should not believe all i see because i use glasses. I should also not believe in bacteria or amoeba because i can only see them with the aid of a microscope. Besides, i can see Venus and mercury with my naked eyes.

f you believe science is false, why use things created with the same scientific principles you hate so much? Why watch TV? why surf the internet? why take vaccines? You should reject all things science and remain frozen in first century palestine (jesus's period).



No one said science is false, I only asked if you question every discovery made in science, do you always ask for physical proofs of assertions made in science before you believe?



If your God can appear to thousands of israelites in the mountains to prove his existence, why is afraid to appear to Nigerians physically to prove his existence? If he should give us the same spectacle the purportedly gave the israelites, who will doubt his existence;

Despite all the appearances He made to them, those that wanted to sin still sinned, there was a time they even resorted to serving other gods, defeating the purpose of his appearances in the first place. Like I said before, people select what they choose to believe not what you try prove to them.

.

long time.

CoolUsername:
The laws of physics are just a method of describing the way things happen in the universe.

Normal physics is used to describe events on the atomic level and up but it isn't absolute.

Once we get to the subatomic level, the laws of normal physics get broken all willy-nilly and we describe that as quantum mechanics. Here, particles pop in and out is existence for no reason.

The problem with these laws is that they make for an extremely chaotic Universe, there is no rhyme or reason to most events and a lot of phenomena are caused by pure luck. Therefore, there is little evidence pointing towards a Grand Design. But some insist that such a complex Universe cannot be an accident.

By that logic, then a Grand Designer couldn't have occurred by accident too, so wouldn't it require one itself? If it does, we go into an infinite regress. If it doesn't, then what property does it possess to make it so and why isn't that property applicable to the Universe or some precursor?

The only reason why we're here asking whether all this could be a coincidence is because, well... we are here. We cannot know the number of 'failed' outcomes before us if there were even any failed outcomes before us.

But what about a god who started the process but only uses natural process to perform its actions? Well, such a god would be apathetic, impersonal and extremely chaotic, then why call it a God?

Sorry for the long rant but I just wanted to show you I (an agnostic atheist) address all these existential questions. This is purely my logic, different people will come up their own conclusions and that's fine. It is only when people claim to know the answer for certain that I will ask for proof.

This is the simple logic that shows that God is impersonal and without reasoning capabilities. And it's certainly not some crucified jew and his father in the sky ....I call this mother nature. It's just a timeless creative and destructive energy that brings into existence all natural possibilities in accordance to some natural blueprint and laws.
We will never succeed in dating the origin of the universe because the universe is timeless - no beginning and no end.

knowyaself2:

This is the simple logic that shows that God is impersonal and without reasoning capabilities. And it's certainly not some crucified jew and his father in the sky ....I call this mother nature. It's just a timeless creative and destructive energy that brings into existence all natural possibilities in accordance to some natural blueprint and laws.
We will never succeed in dating the origin of the universe because the universe is timeless - no beginning and no end.

An impersonal creative force without reasoning capabilities, gave rise to Living things with reasoning capabilities, so from where did reason originate from?


That the creative force is impersonal suggests, that it had no motive behind its creation, hence reality, earth and universe has no essence. Then why did this creative force set up laws to govern what it has no intention of preserving.

I think the physical laws are descriptions of the structure and behaviour of the universe. For this reason I've always had difficulty understanding your question. It is the same as asking why a given existing universe has a structure. What do you expect it to have?! With or without God, any existing universe must behave in a describable way. The descriptions of how it behaves are what we call physical laws. To get a better idea of what I'm saying, try to imagine a universe with no describable structure or behaviour.

Indescribable, right? How can such a universe possibly exist and what could be keeping it in existence?

Let me mention that I see a distinction between a chaotic or disorderly universe which is simply one where making predictions about its behaviour is extremely difficult or even impossible and a universe without any laws which completely lacks any behaviour or structure. Sometimes people mean to refer to a chaotic universe when they talk about a universe without laws.

So to answer your question as much as is possible, I don't think there is any such thing as a universe without laws, whether caused or uncaused. A universe must have laws.

finofaya:
I think the physical laws are descriptions of the structure and behaviour of the universe. For this reason I've always had difficulty understanding your question. It is the same as asking why a given existing universe has a structure. What do you expect it to have?! With or without God, any existing universe must behave in a describable way. The descriptions of how it behaves are what we call physical laws. To get a better idea of what I'm saying, try to imagine a universe with no describable structure or behaviour.

Indescribable, right? How can such a universe possibly exist and what could be keeping it in existence?

Let me mention that I see a distinction between a chaotic or disorderly universe which is simply one where making predictions about its behaviour is extremely difficult or even impossible and a universe without any laws which completely lacks any behaviour or structure. Sometimes people mean to refer to a chaotic universe when they talk about a universe without laws.

So to answer your question as much as is possible, I don't think there is any such thing as a universe without laws, whether caused or uncaused. A universe must have laws.

Do you believe that the universe came to exist by coincidence?