It is true that it is not all scientific truths that are universally accepted but science remains the only things that has truth that are objectively verified and universally accepted. Religion has NONE, and that is why indoctrination remains the only way it gains adherents. Childhood indoctrination remains the greatest weapon religion has in its arsenal.
J.D. Brucker in one of his books that I read talked about childhood indoctrination as thegreatest weaponreligion has in its arsenal. I'll copy and paste a lot of what he wrote down in his book while adding my own thoughts to his own. I'll simply state why childhood indoctrination is the main reason people still stick to Christianity.
Afterall even the bible acknowledges the importance of childhood indoctrination when it says that:
Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. Poverbs 22:6
When you properly indoctrinate a child even when he grows he'll hardly depart from it. That is what christianity and all religions use to increase their numbers and make sure that people still believe. Childhood indoctrination. Without it Christianityand most religions will not be what they are today. If most children are presented with the bible for the first time on their 21st birthday christianity will not ne what it is today. But for christianity to ne what it is children will have to be indoctrinated at an early age so that they will remain in the religion.
From his book J.D. Brucker states it plainly that: "indoctrination means to heavily influence someone into believing a particular set of ideas, whether they are political, cultural, or religious. Most often, this is done when the individual is particularly young, when he or she lack the ability to reasonably conclude whether or not a statement is true. Those who’ve experienced heavy indoctrination may be unaware of competing theories, alternate hypotheses, or even whether the ideas hold any merit at all; those ideas are simply believed and held dear for an unknown period of time".
As a former christian who went through the process of childhood indoctrination I have firsthand knowledge regarding the practices of indoctrination when it comes to Christianity. As children attending Sunday school , bible stories were read to us as facts, prayers were rehashed and taught to us as very good things that we need to carry out always, Christian hymns and songs were taught, and so on. We as children had no choice in the matter. We were being taught by people we believed were authorities that these particular sets of religious beliefs were true, without a chance of error. As we were taught, so were we expected to accept them fully without question as facts. We were not taught about other competing religious beliefs on a level plain field at all.
At the end almost all of us that attended Sunday school would tell anybody that cared that we know God was real, Jesus walked on water, healed the sick, rose from the dead, was resurrected and ascended into heaven on the third day; to us, all of these things were as real as anything.
Never did we entertain the idea these things might not be true and neither were we influenced in amy way to challenge those beliefs. As I said we weren’t taught about other faiths and why other individuals find those faiths to be true. We even refrained from challenging out of fear of being mocked or punished. Most times when you gothough this indoctrination you'll have no choicd bit to indoctrinate yourself into thinking religious beliefs were off the table to debate.
J.D. Brucker says: "Children are typically open to believing almost anything told to them, without question. During early childhood, children are most receptive which is why education is most important during this period of time. Learning comes faster, the memory is crisp, and children are generally open and willing to accept new information without inhibition. The age of reason is typically considered to be around 6 or 7, when the child begins to have the capabilities to weigh options and reach conclusions. This is when we must be vigilant when trying to help them develop the how to think approach.
Most Christian church organizations heavily involve children in many different events. Sunday school, summer Bible camps, wilderness retreats, catechism or confirmation, plays, and musical ceremonies top that particular list. These organizations are quite aware how impressionable children are and it appears as though they’re taking full advantage of that. Some evangelical Christian organizations fully and publicly acknowledge what they’re doing.
From a very early age, children are taught to memorize parts of the bible and dwell so much on its stories and told that the stories are of divine origins as such they are to be accepted totally as true ; sometimes, this often holds importance over studying other more earthly curriculums which are told is of less importance as the biblical narratives. This has two significant disadvantages. Firstly, this has a long lasting effect on the child’s cognitive development, as it’s primarily based on one particular source. Secondly, as a result of that, they will learn to reject other sources of knowledge simply because it deviates from what the bible teaches. This then, as I state previously, creates an “us” versus “them” frame of mind, completely carrying the believer further from other forms of enlightenment ; never questioning and always accepting, brainwashing at its best. The very same can be said for most of the orthodox Jewish population or Muslims for example. Anywhere religious instruction exists, expect indoctrination to take place at an early age"
Proverbs 22:6 never specified anything particular for a child but expects that the parents should know what is best for the child which is why it says TRAIN UP a child.
Also you forgot something. Now that you are no longer a "christian" as it were, this means a different set of indoctrinations pushed out Christianity.
There is absolutely no vacuum in life. Something always replaces another. One form of indoctrination over another.
You talk about science and truths but if I ask you how many of such scientific truths you have PERSONALLY verified I am sure it would be so few.
Like the evolution angle I mentioned earlier. Do you have any personal proof for evolution besides what is found in text books and what you read about online from scientists?
Atheists say man indoctrinated Christians but they forget that scientists are also men and wrote books for the singular purpose of teaching (indoctrinating) a WILLING audience of which most if not all the things found in those books are never actually self verified by their readers.
If you frown at Religion do you also frown at Religion motivated morals? I have seen and read a lot of atheists say they hold religion based morals to high esteem as it is the only kind of morals that actually does make sense for them to use even among their children.
Here is an example of such a confession of atheist indoctrination
Proverbs 22:6 never specified anything particular for a child but expects that the parents should know what is best for the child which is why it says TRAIN UP a child.
How far? I think we should be doing more threads like this. Seriously. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread, especially page one where you were chewed for trying to lie about the definition of "indoctrination".
Both are. We know the religionists have their stand on their various books which they cannot question even if they feel it's wrong. I mean I'm sure Christians sometimes wonder why the god they worship only appeared to primitive men. But there is an obvious answer to that question where you would think the so called "intelligent atheist" would figure out, but they have no clue themselves.
Atheism came about from rebellion to paganism, long before Christianity. They have always been around. But Morden Athiesm came from Europe. The fight against a supposed Christian deity. This is the unfortunate part,because they keep fighting the idea which is obviously false but failed to study and figure out the misinterpretation of the term "God". So far they are going around in circles just like the religionists. And a circle has no end.
On Nairaland,there is only a handful of those who know what I'm taking about. The rest are supposed "intelligent Athiests" who still argue about the Christian misinterpretations of what God is without an end product. Too many unnecessary questions from athiest makes on wonder how similar they are to religionists.
Obviously it is easy to spot different personals referred to as "gods" in the bible. It doesn't necessarily mean they were gods, they were given this label by primitive men....example Yahweh being a god to the Christians and to the Muslims. One being manipulating lots of tribes.
So far it's being uninteresting,unproductive,uneducative discussion on nairaland and yet no end point. The Christians don't know just as the Athiests don't know anything either. Such is the power of indoctrination. Indoctrination is a prison wall everyone must shake off......you must learn to think for yourself 100%
How far? I think we should be doing more threads like this. Seriously. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread, especially page one where you were chewed for trying to lie about the definition of "indoctrination".
What other topic should we debate on?
Unfortunately your lack of INDEPT understanding made you unaware of root sources for word meanings.
ifenes: Both are. We know the religionists have their stand on their various books which they cannot question even if they feel it's wrong. I mean I'm sure Christians sometimes wonder why the god they worship only appeared to primitive men. But there is an obvious answer to that question where you would think the so called "intelligent atheist" would figure out, but they have no clue themselves.
Atheism came about from rebellion to paganism, long before Christianity. They have always been around. But Morden Athiesm came from Europe. The fight against a supposed Christian deity. This is the unfortunate part,because they keep fighting the idea which is obviously false but failed to study and figure out the misinterpretation of the term "God". So far they are going around in circles just like the religionists. And a circle has no end.
On Nairaland,there is only a handful of those who know what I'm taking about. The rest are supposed "intelligent Athiests" who still argue about the Christian misinterpretations of what God is without an end product. Too many unnecessary questions from athiest makes on wonder how similar they are to religionists.
Obviously it is easy to spot different personals referred to as "gods" in the bible. It doesn't necessarily mean they were gods, they were given this label by primitive men....example Yahweh being a god to the Christians and to the Muslims. One being manipulating lots of tribes.
So far it's being uninteresting,unproductive,uneducative discussion on nairaland and yet no end point. The Christians don't know just as the Athiests don't know anything either. Such is the power of indoctrination. Indoctrination is a prison wall everyone must shake off......you must learn to think for yourself 100%
How far? I think we should be doing more threads like this. Seriously. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread, especially page one where you were chewed for trying to lie about the definition of "indoctrination".
What other topic should we debate on?
Even on reddit your fellow atheists admit to indoctrinating their kids
Proverbs 22:6 never specified anything particular for a child but expects that the parents should know what is best for the child which is why it says TRAIN UP a child.
Proverbs 22:6 clearly shows the impact of childhood indoctrination. It says "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from from it".
The part in bold doesn't need more elaboration.
Also you forgot something. Now that you are no longer a "christian" as it were, this means a different set of indoctrinations pushed out Christianity.
False, I was made to accept stories, tales and narratives that have NO evidence as facts, I tried to verify them for myself and discovered they have no substance to them and I discarded them. I now accept them for what they are. Made up stories that have no evidence to support them. That is what they are in reality but in the world of indoctrination I was made to accept them as truths and facts even when they have no evidence to support them at all.
There is absolutely no vacuum in life. Something always replaces another. One form of indoctrination over another.
This remains your own empty claims and opinion.
You talk about science and truths but if I ask you how many of such scientific truths you have PERSONALLY verified I am sure it would be so few.
Even if they are few, I have been able to verify some unlike when I was religious. I was unable to verify even one truth claim of what I was indoctrinated. As a christian there was no truth claim that I was able to verify personally. I was told to accept things only on their stated claims not based o what I have been able yo verify oersonally and was told that it is a virtue and was deceived and told that blessed are those that believe without seeing.
Like the evolution angle I mentioned earlier. Do you have any personal proof for evolution besides what is found in text books and what you read about online from scientists?
And I told you that I believe in evolution when and where?
Atheists say man indoctrinated Christians but they forget that scientists are also men and wrote books for the singular purpose of teaching (indoctrinating) a WILLING audience of which most if not all the things found in those books are never actually self verified by their readers.
Some scientific claims can be verified by all that look into them personally. I can enter the lab and carry out some experiments myself and verify some claims. As a believer I had no means of verifying ANYTHING I was told. No God for example ever appeared to me and told me anything about any claim. Even when I believed in prayers as a means of communication I prayed and no God answered me to verify anythingI put forward to it.
No means of verifing any truth claim. All I had to make do with is accepting the claims based on faith which I know is nothing but believing something b cause you only what it to be true and not because it is actually true.
If you frown at Religion do you also frown at Religion motivated morals? I have seen and read a lot of atheists say they hold religion based morals to high esteem as it is the only kind of morals that actually does make sense for them to use even among their children.
What has religious indoctrination got to do with morality? Morality is a human invention and it exist with or without religion. Before christianity was invented for example people were living moral lives. There are good and bad religious morals just as there are good and bad secular morals in my opinion.
Here is an example of such a confession of atheist indoctrination
What am I to do with the opinion of these people? It means nothing to me because it is not universal unlike christianity where kids MUST be indoctrinated at early age for it to make sense to them and also remain and practice the religion. I am an atheist an I do not indoctrinate my children with anything. Their mum is indoctrinating them with the christian stories and belief system.
It is true that it is not all scientific truths that are universally accepted but science remains the only things that has truth that are objectively verified and universally accepted. Religion has NONE, and that is why indoctrination remains the only way it gains adherents. Childhood indoctrination remains the greatest weapon religion has in its arsenal.
J.D. Brucker in one of his books that I read talked about childhood indoctrination as thegreatest weaponreligion has in its arsenal. I'll copy and paste a lot of what he wrote down in his book while adding my own thoughts to his own. I'll simply state why childhood indoctrination is the main reason people still stick to Christianity.
Afterall even the bible acknowledges the importance of childhood indoctrination when it says that:
Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. Poverbs 22:6
When you properly indoctrinate a child even when he grows he'll hardly depart from it. That is what christianity and all religions use to increase their numbers and make sure that people still believe. Childhood indoctrination. Without it Christianityand most religions will not be what they are today. If most children are presented with the bible for the first time on their 21st birthday christianity will not ne what it is today. But for christianity to ne what it is children will have to be indoctrinated at an early age so that they will remain in the religion.
From his book J.D. Brucker states it plainly that: "indoctrination means to heavily influence someone into believing a particular set of ideas, whether they are political, cultural, or religious. Most often, this is done when the individual is particularly young, when he or she lack the ability to reasonably conclude whether or not a statement is true. Those who’ve experienced heavy indoctrination may be unaware of competing theories, alternate hypotheses, or even whether the ideas hold any merit at all; those ideas are simply believed and held dear for an unknown period of time".
As a former christian who went through the process of childhood indoctrination I have firsthand knowledge regarding the practices of indoctrination when it comes to Christianity. As children attending Sunday school , bible stories were read to us as facts, prayers were rehashed and taught to us as very good things that we need to carry out always, Christian hymns and songs were taught, and so on. We as children had no choice in the matter. We were being taught by people we believed were authorities that these particular sets of religious beliefs were true, without a chance of error. As we were taught, so were we expected to accept them fully without question as facts. We were not taught about other competing religious beliefs on a level plain field at all.
At the end almost all of us that attended Sunday school would tell anybody that cared that we know God was real, Jesus walked on water, healed the sick, rose from the dead, was resurrected and ascended into heaven on the third day; to us, all of these things were as real as anything.
Never did we entertain the idea these things might not be true and neither were we influenced in amy way to challenge those beliefs. As I said we weren’t taught about other faiths and why other individuals find those faiths to be true. We even refrained from challenging out of fear of being mocked or punished. Most times when you gothough this indoctrination you'll have no choicd bit to indoctrinate yourself into thinking religious beliefs were off the table to debate.
J.D. Brucker says: "Children are typically open to believing almost anything told to them, without question. During early childhood, children are most receptive which is why education is most important during this period of time. Learning comes faster, the memory is crisp, and children are generally open and willing to accept new information without inhibition. The age of reason is typically considered to be around 6 or 7, when the child begins to have the capabilities to weigh options and reach conclusions. This is when we must be vigilant when trying to help them develop the how to think approach.
Most Christian church organizations heavily involve children in many different events. Sunday school, summer Bible camps, wilderness retreats, catechism or confirmation, plays, and musical ceremonies top that particular list. These organizations are quite aware how impressionable children are and it appears as though they’re taking full advantage of that. Some evangelical Christian organizations fully and publicly acknowledge what they’re doing.
From a very early age, children are taught to memorize parts of the bible and dwell so much on its stories and told that the stories are of divine origins as such they are to be accepted totally as true ; sometimes, this often holds importance over studying other more earthly curriculums which are told is of less importance as the biblical narratives. This has two significant disadvantages. Firstly, this has a long lasting effect on the child’s cognitive development, as it’s primarily based on one particular source. Secondly, as a result of that, they will learn to reject other sources of knowledge simply because it deviates from what the bible teaches. This then, as I state previously, creates an “us” versus “them” frame of mind, completely carrying the believer further from other forms of enlightenment ; never questioning and always accepting, brainwashing at its best. The very same can be said for most of the orthodox Jewish population or Muslims for example. Anywhere religious instruction exists, expect indoctrination to take place at an early age"
Q.E.D. Beautifully written and concludes the whole thread.
This thread was going nowhere as even the definition of indoctrination was not agreed upon. It is impossible to debate a subject that means different things to the debaters. Imagine someone defining indoctrination as "simply to teach", it means the word brainwashing also means to teach.
The key to all religions as you rightly pointed out is early childhood indoctrination, that is why straight from birth children are vigorously indoctrinated with religious dogma of their patents, and before they get to the age that they are capable of independent thinking ( sometimes around the age of 7), they have accepted the religious dogmas as truths.
I was very lucky to escape early childhood indoctrination, due to the strange circumstances of my birth, I was born not my dads house or town but my grandfather's village that is over 4 hours away by speed boat from the nearest town. It was not until I was six did I go back to my father's house. My grandfather who was a fisherman was highly irreligious ( I did'nt know if he was an atheist though), so by the age of 6, I had not had any religious indoctrination.
It was at my Father's family house that the indoctrination started. My mame was changed to a Christan name, and I was baptized into the Anglican church ( my family church) at the age of 7. The problem was that, by then it was too late. I really could not understand what the whole issue was about, I did not understand why I needed salvation and it was a white man hung on a cross that would provide it. Even though the whole thing did not make sense to me, I tagged along, I joined the choir and rose to become the lead tenor by age 15, I was even training to be an organist. I was also one of the cross bearer that follows the Reverend father when entering and exiting the church. By the age of 16 I was tired of the whole thing and I wanted out, but my family would have non of it. It caused problems between me and my family, i would skip choir practice on Saturdays and would be severely punished. As soon as I left home for A/levels, I became free. It was at the university that the cosmological and existential questions started plaguing my mind, so I started reading on science, philosophy, comparative religion and occultism. At the end of the day I settle with the sciences as the best answers to our cosmological and existential origins.
How did you come to the conclusion that the bible is inerrant? Which research did you personally undertake that showed you that everything inside the bible is true and that the bible is competely without any error?
We can take one story from the bible that has a universal implications and use it to measure your claim about inerrancy and indoctrination.
Accordingto the bible about 4500 years ago there was a flood that covered and destroyed the entire earth killing all humans and land animals except the family of Noah and some animals that were taking into the Ark by Noah.
Is this actually history? Why or why not? If this is true then it means that 4500 years ago there were no people living in China, Egypt, India, Japan, Sudan, North America etc.
Which historical document did you study that showed you that there were NO people living in China 4500 years ago because China was competely destroyed by a flood that left everybody dead about 4500 years ago?
Can you point to any historical narrative from the Indians that says that 4500 years ago the entire India was destroyed or that nobody was living in India 4500 years ago?
Do you believe the Noah's story because you studied it and have hard facts to support the narrative or simply because you were indoctrinated and you accept it because you feel the bile is inerrant?
If the bible is inerrant then those christians you mentioned that believe in its inerrancy are wrong. If that is the case then why are you wasting our time with their position?
Bible inerrancy does not mean that whatever happened in the bible happened literally. . They've been discussions about Noah's ark story and many have pointed out that the story can be found in other cultures outside the Jewish one.
Q.E.D. Beautifully written and concludes the whole thread.
This thread was going nowhere as even the definition of indoctrination was not agreed upon. It is impossible to debate a subject that means different things to the debaters. Imagine someone defining indoctrination as "simply to teach", it means the word brainwashing also means to teach.
The key to all religions as you rightly pointed out is early childhood indoctrination, that is why straight from birth children are vigorously indoctrinated with religious dogma of their patents, and before they get to the age that they are capable of independent thinking ( sometimes around the age of 7), they have accepted the religious dogmas as truths.
I was very lucky to escape early childhood indoctrination, due to the strange circumstances of my birth, I was born not my dads house or town but my grandfather's village that is over 4 hours away by speed boat from the nearest town. It was not until I was six did I go back to my father's house. My grandfather who was a fisherman was highly irreligious ( I did'nt know if he was an atheist though), so by the age of 6, I had not had any religious indoctrination.
It was at my Father's family house that the indoctrination started. My mame was changed to a Christan name, and I was baptized into the Anglican church ( my family church) at the age of 7. The problem was that, by then it was too late. I really could not understand what the whole issue was about, I did not understand why I needed salvation and it was a white man hung on a cross that would provide it. Even though the whole thing did not make sense to me, I tagged along, I joined the choir and rose to become the lead tenor by age 15, I was even training to be an organist. I was also one of the cross bearer that follows the Reverend father when entering and exiting the church. By the age of 16 I was tired of the whole thing and I wanted out, but my family would have non of it. It caused problems between me and my family, i would skip choir practice on Saturdays and would be severely punished. As soon as I left home for A/levels, I became free. It was at the university that the cosmological and existential questions started plaguing my mind, so I started reading on science, philosophy, comparative religion and occultism. At the end of the day I settle with the sciences as the best answers to our cosmological and existential origins.
Did you think we will not go though the link to see it for ourselves or what? Why do you tell lies openly like this? Where do this he atheist admit that they indoctrinate their kids? Here are the comments from there that show that you lie shamelessly.
/NarhenDec 10, 2015, 7:18 AM I've had trouble with this. I firmly hold atheism or non-affiliation to be the true way of life. I know i'm right. And I want my children to live the same life. But isn't that one of the things that we as atheists despise of religion? If I were to do this, am I no better? What do you think?
u/OldWolf2642 • Dec 10, 2015, 7:33 AM Just to be 'that' guy: there is no such thing as atheist indoctrination. We have no dogma or 'holy text', no centralised forum or governing body.
What we do, what ANY person should do, is educate and nurture our children. Not force our own views and opinions on them.
Education is critical.
u/teh_mooses • Dec 10, 2015, 7:20 AM I think you should do the "right" thing - which is allow your children to make up their own minds. When they get old enough to ask questions, answer them as best as you can.
Remember that children, no matter how much we as humans want this to be false, are not extensions of yourself. They are their own unique people. I'd no more be disappointed that my son decided to become Christian then I would be disappointed if he were gay.
u/materhern • Dec 10, 2015, 8:03 AM I have kids and this is an easy one. Don't tell them what to believe. Allow them to question your beliefs and develop their own. My kids believed in god or gods in various ways as they were growing up. Getting into their teenage years, they've slowly started questioning why they believe in anything super natural and naturally are giving it up.
But in all reality, your kids look to you for guidance and put more stock in what you say versus other people. It is impossible to not indoctrinate or brainwash kids in some form or fashion. Especially when they are younger and everything you say is gospel truth.
u/LeannaBard • Dec 10, 2015, 9:29 AM The thing is, you don't really have to do anything to influence your kids into an atheistic worldview. It's the default state, and as long as they aren't indoctrinated with religion and they are rational thinkers, the default is probably where they'll stay. Of course, you can indoctrinate a kid against religions, and I don't think this should be done. But whether you're religious or not, you should teach your kids how to think instead of what to think so they are well equipped to make an informed decision of their own accord. I'm sure we all hope our kids turn out to believe the same things we do. Obviously we believe we're right or we wouldn't believe that way! But recognizing that it's okay if that doesn't happen and being tolerant of their differences is what really matters.
u/Dudesan • Dec 10, 2015, 9:45 AM The fun thing about atheism is that it doesn't require any indoctrination, threats, or lies to promote.
If you teach your kids a healthy respect for inquiry, scepticism, curiosity, intellectual honesty, and appreciating the world as it is rather than as they wish it was, they'll probably figure out the whole "atheism" thing on their own.
Non of the people that commented agreed that children should be indoctrinated with atheism. Rather the OP who was honest to state that childhood indoctrination is bad and if he were to do it with his kids will make him look like religious people was advised by all not to do it.
ifenes: Both are. We know the religionists have their stand on their various books which they cannot question even if they feel it's wrong. I mean I'm sure Christians sometimes wonder why the god they worship only appeared to primitive men. But there is an obvious answer to that question where you would think the so called "intelligent atheist" would figure out, but they have no clue themselves.
Atheism came about from rebellion to paganism, long before Christianity. They have always been around. But Morden Athiesm came from Europe. The fight against a supposed Christian deity. This is the unfortunate part,because they keep fighting the idea which is obviously false but failed to study and figure out the misinterpretation of the term "God". So far they are going around in circles just like the religionists. And a circle has no end.
On Nairaland,there is only a handful of those who know what I'm taking about. The rest are supposed "intelligent Athiests" who still argue about the Christian misinterpretations of what God is without an end product. Too many unnecessary questions from athiest makes on wonder how similar they are to religionists.
Obviously it is easy to spot different personals referred to as "gods" in the bible. It doesn't necessarily mean they were gods, they were given this label by primitive men....example Yahweh being a god to the Christians and to the Muslims. One being manipulating lots of tribes.
So far it's being uninteresting,unproductive,uneducative discussion on nairaland and yet no end point. The Christians don't know just as the Athiests don't know anything either. Such is the power of indoctrination. Indoctrination is a prison wall everyone must shake off...... you must learn to think for yourself 100%
The simplest yet the most difficulty thing for most people. Study wide and think for yourselves people!
Proverbs 22:6 clearly shows the impact of childhood indoctrination. It says "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from from it".
The part in bold doesn't need more elaboration.
False, I was made to accept stories, tales and narratives that have NO evidence as facts, I tried to verify them for myself and discovered they have no substance to them and I discarded them. I now accept them for what they are. Made up stories that have no evidence to support them. That is what they are in reality but in the world of indoctrination I was made to accept them as truths and facts even when they have no evidence to support them at all.
This remains your own empty claims and opinion.
Even if they are few, I have been able to verify some unlike when I was religious. I was unable to verify even one truth claim of what I was indoctrinated. As a christian there was no truth claim that I was able to verify personally. I was told to accept things only on their stated claims not based o what I have been able yo verify oersonally and was told that it is a virtue and was deceived and told that blessed are those that believe without seeing.
And I told you that I believe in evolution when and where?
Some scientific claims can be verified by all that look into them personally. I can enter the lab and carry out some experiments myself and verify some claims. As a believer I had no means of verifying ANYTHING I was told. No God for example ever appeared to me and told me anything about any claim. Even when I believed in prayers as a means of communication I prayed and no God answered me to verify anythingI put forward to it.
No means of verifing any truth claim. All I had to make do with is accepting the claims based on faith which I know is nothing but believing something b cause you only what it to be true and not because it is actually true.
What has religious indoctrination got to do with morality? Morality is a human invention and it exist with or without religion. Before christianity was invented for example people were living moral lives. There are good and bad religious morals just as there are good and bad secular morals in my opinion.
What am I to do with the opinion of these people? It means nothing to me because it is not universal unlike christianity where kids MUST be indoctrinated at early age for it to make sense to them and also remain and practice the religion. I am an atheist an I do not indoctrinate my children with anything. Their mum is indoctrinating them with the christian stories and belief system.
"Train up a child in the way he should grow " - trust me every parent religious , theistic , atheistic will train up his child in his own ways . Every child in indoctrinated in accordance to the beliefs of the parents religious or not . Many atheist parents have also revealed they indoctrinate their kids too . Every parent indoctrinates his or her child .
ifenes: Both are. We know the religionists have their stand on their various books which they cannot question even if they feel it's wrong. I mean I'm sure Christians sometimes wonder why the god they worship only appeared to primitive men. But there is an obvious answer to that question where you would think the so called "intelligent atheist" would figure out, but they have no clue themselves.
Atheism came about from rebellion to paganism, long before Christianity. They have always been around. But Morden Athiesm came from Europe. The fight against a supposed Christian deity. This is the unfortunate part,because they keep fighting the idea which is obviously false but failed to study and figure out the misinterpretation of the term "God". So far they are going around in circles just like the religionists. And a circle has no end.
On Nairaland,there is only a handful of those who know what I'm taking about. The rest are supposed "intelligent Athiests" who still argue about the Christian misinterpretations of what God is without an end product. Too many unnecessary questions from athiest makes on wonder how similar they are to religionists.
Obviously it is easy to spot different personals referred to as "gods" in the bible. It doesn't necessarily mean they were gods, they were given this label by primitive men....example Yahweh being a god to the Christians and to the Muslims. One being manipulating lots of tribes.
So far it's being uninteresting,unproductive,uneducative discussion on nairaland and yet no end point. The Christians don't know just as the Athiests don't know anything either. Such is the power of indoctrination. Indoctrination is a prison wall everyone must shake off......you must learn to think for yourself 100%
You didn't mention how atheists are indoctrinated.
It is wrong to use the word "truths". Those that are not acceptable are hypotheses which are yet to be experimented or debunked from peer review. Those that conform to existing theories and have better empirical observations should be what to consider as "truth"(or acceptable). Science is about observation and testing not decree.
Isn't the Law of Causality a scientific truth ? Is it possible for nothingness that has no causal potency to produce something ?
You didn't mention how atheists are indoctrinated.
which is exactly what prompted my question to him, which is for him define indoctrination, my next question after he's given his definition would be for him to refer to his original post and tell us how he's shown atheists are indoctrinated
Bible inerrancy does not mean that whatever happened in the bible happened literally. . They've been discussions about Noah's ark story and many have pointed out that the story can be found in other cultures outside the Jewish one.
Did the Noah's story happen literally or not? Which historical study did you take that showed you that it is true?
"Train up a child in the way he should grow " - trust me every parent religious , theistic , atheistic will train up his child in his own ways . Every child in indoctrinated in accordance to the beliefs of the parents religious or not . Many atheist parents have also revealed they indoctrinate their kids too . Every parent indoctrinates his or her child .
I am an atheist and my children are not atheist. I've never indoctrinated them with anything about atheism so your whole assertion is false.
Q.E.D. Beautifully written and concludes the whole thread.
This thread was going nowhere as even the definition of indoctrination was not agreed upon. It is impossible to debate a subject that means different things to the debaters. Imagine someone defining indoctrination as "simply to teach", it means the word brainwashing also means to teach.
The key to all religions as you rightly pointed out is early childhood indoctrination, that is why straight from birth children are vigorously indoctrinated with religious dogma of their patents, and before they get to the age that they are capable of independent thinking ( sometimes around the age of 7), they have accepted the religious dogmas as truths.
I was very lucky to escape early childhood indoctrination, due to the strange circumstances of my birth, I was born not my dads house or town but my grandfather's village that is over 4 hours away by speed boat from the nearest town. It was not until I was six did I go back to my father's house. My grandfather who was a fisherman was highly irreligious ( I did'nt know if he was an atheist though), so by the age of 6, I had not had any religious indoctrination.
It was at my Father's family house that the indoctrination started. My mame was changed to a Christan name, and I was baptized into the Anglican church ( my family church) at the age of 7. The problem was that, by then it was too late. I really could not understand what the whole issue was about, I did not understand why I needed salvation and it was a white man hung on a cross that would provide it. Even though the whole thing did not make sense to me, I tagged along, I joined the choir and rose to become the lead tenor by age 15, I was even training to be an organist. I was also one of the cross bearer that follows the Reverend father when entering and exiting the church. By the age of 16 I was tired of the whole thing and I wanted out, but my family would have non of it. It caused problems between me and my family, i would skip choir practice on Saturdays and would be severely punished. As soon as I left home for A/levels, I became free. It was at the university that the cosmological and existential questions started plaguing my mind, so I started reading on science, philosophy, comparative religion and occultism. At the end of the day I settle with the sciences as the best answers to our cosmological and existential origins.
Yeah and we who have been Christians since our childhood have no knowledge of science , mathematics , logic , philosophy and other areas where we can find knowledge . We never did well in school and never won accolades for our brilliance in sciences and mathematics simply because we were indoctrinated with religion .
Honestly while studying the lives of great Christian scientists like George Lemaitre , Isaac Newton and Michael Faraday , I can tell you that they were more indoctrinated than I was . What about the childhood of great philosophers like St Augustine , Thomas Aquinas and George Berkeley But they've made indelible discoveries and contributions in science and philosophy . And the world will remember the names of these indoctrinated Christians for years and years to come
Proverbs 22:6 clearly shows the impact of childhood indoctrination. It says "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from from it".
The part in bold doesn't need more elaboration.
False, I was made to accept stories, tales and narratives that have NO evidence as facts, I tried to verify them for myself and discovered they have no substance to them and I discarded them. I now accept them for what they are. Made up stories that have no evidence to support them. That is what they are in reality but in the world of indoctrination I was made to accept them as truths and facts even when they have no evidence to support them at all.
This remains your own empty claims and opinion.
Even if they are few, I have been able to verify some unlike when I was religious. I was unable to verify even one truth claim of what I was indoctrinated. As a christian there was no truth claim that I was able to verify personally. I was told to accept things only on their stated claims not based o what I have been able yo verify oersonally and was told that it is a virtue and was deceived and told that blessed are those that believe without seeing.
And I told you that I believe in evolution when and where?
Some scientific claims can be verified by all that look into them personally. I can enter the lab and carry out some experiments myself and verify some claims. As a believer I had no means of verifying ANYTHING I was told. No God for example ever appeared to me and told me anything about any claim. Even when I believed in prayers as a means of communication I prayed and no God answered me to verify anythingI put forward to it.
No means of verifing any truth claim. All I had to make do with is accepting the claims based on faith which I know is nothing but believing something b cause you only what it to be true and not because it is actually true.
What has religious indoctrination got to do with morality? Morality is a human invention and it exist with or without religion. Before christianity was invented for example people were living moral lives. There are good and bad religious morals just as there are good and bad secular morals in my opinion.
What am I to do with the opinion of these people? It means nothing to me because it is not universal unlike christianity where kids MUST be indoctrinated at early age for it to make sense to them and also remain and practice the religion. I am an atheist an I do not indoctrinate my children with anything. Their mum is indoctrinating them with the christian stories and belief system.
Your last comment supports all that has been said on this thread.
Everything you say is strictly Your Own opinion. You are trying to force us to believe that indoctrination is solely a religious thing but that has been shown to be absolutely untrue.
Even atheists on reddit which link I posted encourage the indoctrination of their kids against religion. This they either do suggestively or outrightly through a well tailored curriculum which would ensure they maintain the family atheist position.
Indoctrination is in all shades and colours. Sometimes it is subtle and sometimes it is bold. As long as IDEAS, KNOWLEDGE, OPINIONS are being shared from a higher source to a lower recipient indoctrination is in process.
You say you aren't an evolutionist but if I ask you if you are a creationist you would say you are not but yet are skeptical of a creator God as depicted in the Bible but does your skepticism of Yahweh mean the creation did not occur since its only Yahweh you are agnostic to?
If you are agnostic to a creator God that means you are not pro creation which would mean that there is only one place to lean to which contrasts creation and that is evolution. (hope I did not confuse you).
How many scientific claims have you personally verified in a lab?
I am an atheist and my children are not atheist. I've never indoctrinated them with anything about atheism so your whole assertion is false.
Don't mind him, he claims to know atheists more than atheist themselves, while having never been an atheist.
I am an atheist, my wife a born again Christian. I have never called my children and " indoctrinated " them that there is no God and that Jesus, Yahweh and biblical stories are bullshit. They follow their mother to church.
My only worry is my 3 year old is always talking about hell. If her brothers should offend her, she should scream, you will go to hell and she would start crying if her brothers threaten her will hell fire. I am sure that is the result Sunday school indoctrination. Another thing is she calls all white men with beard Jesus.
Q.E.D. Beautifully written and concludes the whole thread.
This thread was going nowhere as even the definition of indoctrination was not agreed upon. It is impossible to debate a subject that means different things to the debaters. Imagine someone defining indoctrination as "simply to teach", it means the word brainwashing also means to teach.
The key to all religions as you rightly pointed out is early childhood indoctrination, that is why straight from birth children are vigorously indoctrinated with religious dogma of their patents, and before they get to the age that they are capable of independent thinking ( sometimes around the age of 7), they have accepted the religious dogmas as truths.
I was very lucky to escape early childhood indoctrination, due to the strange circumstances of my birth, I was born not my dads house or town but my grandfather's village that is over 4 hours away by speed boat from the nearest town. It was not until I was six did I go back to my father's house. My grandfather who was a fisherman was highly irreligious ( I did'nt know if he was an atheist though), so by the age of 6, I had not had any religious indoctrination.
It was at my Father's family house that the indoctrination started. My mame was changed to a Christan name, and I was baptized into the Anglican church ( my family church) at the age of 7. The problem was that, by then it was too late. I really could not understand what the whole issue was about, I did not understand why I needed salvation and it was a white man hung on a cross that would provide it. Even though the whole thing did not make sense to me, I tagged along, I joined the choir and rose to become the lead tenor by age 15, I was even training to be an organist. I was also one of the cross bearer that follows the Reverend father when entering and exiting the church. By the age of 16 I was tired of the whole thing and I wanted out, but my family would have non of it. It caused problems between me and my family, i would skip choir practice on Saturdays and would be severely punished. As soon as I left home for A/levels, I became free. It was at the university that the cosmological and existential questions started plaguing my mind, so I started reading on science, philosophy, comparative religion and occultism. At the end of the day I settle with the sciences as the best answers to our cosmological and existential origins.
I will make this simple. Nobody is brainwashed in ALL THINGS. brainwashing is carried out on a specific thing and what is used to achieve any form of brainwashing is through teaching and techniques associated with teaching.
So in its root form brainwashing is derived through teaching.
One can be taught to be a killer, a doctor, a lawyer, a businessman etc but they all have that one thing in common and that is importation of knowledge via teaching.
If you still think indoctrination is all about brainwashing when it has other synonyms then I am sorry to say you are doing English a great disservice
Indoctrination is in all shades and colours. Sometimes it is subtle and sometimes it is bold. As long as IDEAS, KNOWLEDGE, OPINIONS are being shared from a higher source to a lower recipient indoctrination is in process.
When I was reading through your post and I saw this what came to my mind was our mirror neurons which allow us to mimic or learn by mimicking just anything from behavior to life style . That's why they say surround yourself with the right people because they intend to subtly influence us . Our mirror neurons allow for subtle influence from the outside world . And the mirror neurons in the brains of children are very active , mimicking the behavior of the parents , internalizing their beliefs , ideologies etc subtly .
So this means that one does not necessarily need to be direct about indoctrinating his child , the mirror neurons are there for the subtle or indirect way of doing that .
Atheistic teachings of evolution is also a very good example of indoctrination wouldn't you agree?
Evolution is the central theme of BIOLOGY which is a NATURAL SCIENCE, and Science can be QUESTIONED and CHALLENGED, so therefore, teaching evolution is NOT indoctrination.
By the way, evolution has NOTHING to do with atheism.
You simpletons keep attaching the Big Bang theory and Evolution to atheism, when those are only scientific theories, not atheistic theories, and there are atheists who REJECT them.
Atheism only means disbelief in the existence of Gods.
The secular morality is morality outside religion . The communist , socialist governments had secular morality and over 250 million people lost their lives . People were tortured , burnt alive , buried alive thrown in prison etc because they believed in God - and the communists felt it was good since man not God should create moral standards . My dear friend , your thread has already been destroyed before you opened it .
Did you think we will not go though the link to see it for ourselves or what? Why do you tell lies openly like this? Where do this he atheist admit that they indoctrinate their kids? Here are the comments from there that show that you lie shamelessly.
/NarhenDec 10, 2015, 7:18 AM I've had trouble with this. I firmly hold atheism or non-affiliation to be the true way of life. I know i'm right. And I want my children to live the same life. But isn't that one of the things that we as atheists despise of religion? If I were to do this, am I no better? What do you think?
u/OldWolf2642 • Dec 10, 2015, 7:33 AM Just to be 'that' guy: there is no such thing as atheist indoctrination. We have no dogma or 'holy text', no centralised forum or governing body.
What we do, what ANY person should do, is educate and nurture our children. Not force our own views and opinions on them.
Education is critical.
u/teh_mooses • Dec 10, 2015, 7:20 AM I think you should do the "right" thing - which is allow your children to make up their own minds. When they get old enough to ask questions, answer them as best as you can.
Remember that children, no matter how much we as humans want this to be false, are not extensions of yourself. They are their own unique people. I'd no more be disappointed that my son decided to become Christian then I would be disappointed if he were gay.
u/materhern • Dec 10, 2015, 8:03 AM I have kids and this is an easy one. Don't tell them what to believe. Allow them to question your beliefs and develop their own. My kids believed in god or gods in various ways as they were growing up. Getting into their teenage years, they've slowly started questioning why they believe in anything super natural and naturally are giving it up.
But in all reality, your kids look to you for guidance and put more stock in what you say versus other people. It is impossible to not indoctrinate or brainwash kids in some form or fashion. Especially when they are younger and everything you say is gospel truth.
u/LeannaBard • Dec 10, 2015, 9:29 AM The thing is, you don't really have to do anything to influence your kids into an atheistic worldview. It's the default state, and as long as they aren't indoctrinated with religion and they are rational thinkers, the default is probably where they'll stay. Of course, you can indoctrinate a kid against religions, and I don't think this should be done. But whether you're religious or not, you should teach your kids how to think instead of what to think so they are well equipped to make an informed decision of their own accord. I'm sure we all hope our kids turn out to believe the same things we do. Obviously we believe we're right or we wouldn't believe that way! But recognizing that it's okay if that doesn't happen and being tolerant of their differences is what really matters.
u/Dudesan • Dec 10, 2015, 9:45 AM The fun thing about atheism is that it doesn't require any indoctrination, threats, or lies to promote.
If you teach your kids a healthy respect for inquiry, scepticism, curiosity, intellectual honesty, and appreciating the world as it is rather than as they wish it was, they'll probably figure out the whole "atheism" thing on their own.
Non of the people that commented agreed that children should be indoctrinated with atheism. Rather the OP who was honest to state that childhood indoctrination is bad and if he were to do it with his kids will make him look like religious people was advised by all not to do it.
Their comments show that you are a liar.
Show some dignity when lying.
This is one of such comments from reddit by an atheist.
I would love to post all but dropping the link and anyone who goes through it honestly would see that indoctrination is a core acceptance among atheists.
Anything but religion! Teach them anything but religion
First off, you have no obligation to be objective when raising a child. Raising a child is your responsibility and task, therefore you actually should teach your child is what you think it's best for him. If you think that's atheism, then you should teach atheism. Your child will not grow up in a vacuum therefore he will get exposed to all sorts of ideas, not just yours.
