AbdulQaadir:


I propose you accept Islam again.
That's my best wish today.

My Allah bless you abundantly brother AbdulQaadir. You have done what most of us cannot do, you took your time to explain to them. But the problem with atheist and free thinkers is that they quickly and easily use science, psychology and philosophy to explain their thoughts.... all in the bid to prove the non-existence of a Creator or the purposelessness of living, but failing to realize that it is the height of foolishness to see all the complexities of the world around them, and that of themselves and still think everything came about by chance. They can appreciate the beauty of nature but deny the existence of the One behind the so called nature.
An example is the incident that happened with the great Imam- Abu Hanifa: The Atheist scholars challenged him to a debate, and he had to travel to go and meet them, and he tarried on his way. When he got there he apologised to the audience for coming late, and offered to explain what happened on his way saying: "I had to cross a river on my way down here, but when I got to the river bank there was no boat or canoe in sight. so while I was waiting, some parts from the trees on the river bank broke off, split into planks, all by themselves and then formed into a canoe with paddle, and that was what I used to cross over the river" . When he finished his story they got annoyed saying "how do you expect us to believe this false story? it is impossible!", and then he told them that there was no point going into the discussion about the existence of God if they would believe it was not possible to have something as simple as a boat come into existence all by itself or just by chance, but they could believe and even argue that the world with all its complexities, beauties and that of the other creations all came into existence without a creator and purpose. And that was the end of the discussion.

Discussing with atheists sometimes is like moving around in a circle so its good to just say your own and let go... let them enjoy their beliefs .....
“Verily, the Hour is coming __ and I am almost hiding it __that every person may be rewarded for that which he strives” ...Suratul Taha

AbdulQaadir:


Thanks for giving your reply in paragraphs, I would also take my time to analyze them and give each befitting answers.

Firstly, you said and I quote
I checked your profile earlier, then I realized I am also communicating with a Muslim, If I am not mistaken, *"I believe that there is no god/God but Allah and Muhammad is His Prophet."* is what you used as your status, this statement is establishing the fact that you believe in Allah as the only God and Muhammad is His Messenger, that is no body is authorized to say this is lawful and unlawful except Allah through His beloved Messenger, if this is true. This same God mentioned in the Qur'an in affirmation of Hellfire:


And regarding the affirmation of the Heaven, Allah says:


I just brought one evidence for each so as not to lengthen this post, I am sure these evidence are enough unless if you want to prove to me that the words of my Creator is a lie, and I swear by the one who has the total control of my Life that the words of my Creator is haqq.

Secondly, you asked that when Allah knows everything, why does he test us?
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56].

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

i.e., I have only created them so that I might command them to worship Me, not because I am in need of them.

‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (Alone)” means: except that they should affirm their servitude to Me, willingly or unwillingly.

This was the view favoured by Ibn Jareer.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer (4/239).

I know you confused about what is wanted from the slaves of Allaah, which is adhering to His religion which He has chosen for them, and what is wanted for them, which is rewarding the obedient and punishing the disobedient. This is part of Allaah’s decree which will never be altered or changed.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

As for the truth which is the purpose for which He created them – i.e., the heavens and the earth and everything in between them – it is a twofold aim: what is wanted from His slaves and what is wanted for them.

What He wants from us: is that they should know Allaah and the attributes of His perfection, may He be glorified and exalted, and they should worship Him alone and not associate anything with Him, so He alone will be their God, the One Whom they worship and obey and love. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):



He told us that he created the universe so that His slaves might know the perfection of His power, the all-encompassing nature of His knowledge, which requires knowing Him and His names and attributes, and affirming His oneness.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56].

This purpose is what is wanted from His slaves, which is that they should know their Lord and worship Him alone.

As for what is wanted for them, it is recompense on the basis of justice and divine grace, reward and punishment. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And to Allaah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, that He may requite those who do evil with that which they have done (i.e. punish them in Hell), and reward those who do good, with what is best (i.e. Paradise)”

[al-Najm 5 :31]

“Verily, the Hour is coming __ and I am almost hiding it __that every person may be rewarded for that which he strives”

[Ta-Ha 20:15]

“In order that He may make manifest to them the truth of that wherein they differ, and that those who disbelieved (in Resurrection, and in the Oneness of Allaah) may know that they were liars”

[al-Nahl 16:39]

“Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawâ) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His Leave. That is Allaah, your Lord; so worship Him (Alone). Then, will you not remember? 4. To Him is the return of all of you. The Promise of Allaah is true. It is He Who begins the creation and then will repeat it, that He may reward with justice those who believed and did deeds of righteousness. But those who disbelieved will have a drink of boiling fluids and painful torment because they used to disbelieve”

[Yoonus 10:3, 4].

Badaa’i’ al-Fawaa’id (4/971).

I hope this clarifies your doubts,
Thanks for your time.

I'm also a Muslim but what is confusing me is that.God that created us to worship him had already destined some of us will be poor and go to hell even before coming to this world in our destiny.what is the test again.

tintingz:
In as much as I've heard and read this same analogy and excuses from lots of you to make sense out of Allah's action in the Quran you fail to realize the absurdity.

A professor of a study is limited and not perfect, there's no eternal cruel purnishment for people who fail exams, you should also know that people cheat in exams and pass. But in the case of Allah who is said to be all-powerful, all-knowing, he's the beginning and end, he foreknows every single step we take, he knows our end and predestine it but he fail to prevent what could be eternal cruel purnishment for his creation, such thing as evil, hell fire shouldn't exist in the first place if Allah is actually omini-benevolent (all kind, good, merciful) and ominiscience(all-knowing).

The paradox and absurdity here is so obvious that it beg many questions.

You are indeed divergent!
But, ALLAH's ways never change. So is HIS Might. Our similitude is the same as those who have lived on this planet earth and were forewarned and admonished upon goodnesd by HIS messagers .

Largely, some things ALLAH does are beyond compression.

May ALLAH grant us goodness and beautiful ending. Aameen

hadjipapiey:




You are indeed divergent!
But, ALLAH's ways never change. So is HIS Might. Our similitude is the same as those who have lived on this planet earth and were forewarned and admonished upon goodnesd by HIS messagers .

Largely, some things ALLAH does are beyond compression.

May ALLAH grant us goodness and beautiful ending. Aameen

Wow, lmao... Ok then.

nice one op,jazakhumllahu akhiran

tintingz:
What does an almighty all-knowing creator wants to gain in testing his creation, What is so special in it when he already knows the end of everyone. If he's omini-benevolent why does he allow evil to exist?

The knowledge is with him..

abdullahi45:


The knowledge is with him..

Yeah, when things doesn't make sense about God, the statement pop out "God work in mysterious ways" "the knowledge is with him" just to excuse the absurdity of God.

It seems God work well with the ignorance of the people.

tintingz:
Yeah, when things doesn't make sense about God, the statement pop out "God work in mysterious ways" "the knowledge is with him" just to excuse the absurdity of God.

It seems God work well with the ignorance of the people.

Your ignorance is really of high-standard. May God safeguard you. Aameen

Doesnt make sense you say? Then i am not sure you see a reason for your existence...

You better seat down, learn about Islam afterwards, you will see a reason for your existence and a reason to be happy.

Goodluck to you.

abdullahi45:


Your ignorance is really of high-standard. May God safeguard you. Aameen

Doesnt make sense you say? Then i am not sure you see a reason for your existence...

You better seat down, learn about Islam afterwards, you will see a reason for your existence and a reason to be happy.

Goodluck to you.

Lol, before you go.

Can you tell me reason for your existence and a reason to be happy?

tintingz:
Lol, before you go.

Can you tell me reason for your existence and a reason to be happy?

There is a reason why I personally chose to believe there is God.

A simple Google search of what is the most complete thing in the universe shows that human brain (even if not) is considered by many as the most complex thing.

A look at this complex thing in a complete structure (human body) side by side with the computer CPU in a computer system gave an hint (which I haven't found to be proven wrong yet) that complex systems do not build up randomly without intelligence (the reverse is not always true).

In other words, I believe it took something of higher intelligence to build our own.

Ps.
System: units of complex structures working as a single structure.

ypeace:


There is a reason why I personally chose to believe there is God.

A simple Google search of what is the most complete thing in the universe shows that human brain (even if not) is considered by many as the most complex thing.

A look at this complex thing in a complete structure (human body) side by side with the computer CPU in a computer system gave an hint (which I haven't found to be proven wrong yet) that complex systems do not build up randomly without intelligence (the reverse is not always true).

In other words, I believe it took something of higher intelligence to build our own.

Ps.
System: units of complex structures working as a single structure.

Even though this reply was not what I asked.

So by your logic(for believing there is a God), since the brain is complex there must be an intelligent design as the creator, so with this the intelligent design must also be complex, so in this case, this intelligent design must also have a higher complex intelligent design as creator and it goes on like that.

Let me reverse it, how do you suppose the brain should be without an intelligent design?

tintingz:
Lol, before you go.

Can you tell me reason for your existence and a reason to be happy?

I sent you pm already, we can chat more.

tintingz:
What does an almighty all-knowing creator wants to gain in testing his creation, What is so special in it when he already knows the end of everyone. If he's omini-benevolent why does he allow evil to exist?

The Almighty, The all-knowing Creator, who created the universe and all that is in it, that which you know and that which you are ignorant of, in your mind would the creator want to gain in testing His creation?! When you think about it properly, comparing the universe and yourself, then you should normally come to the conclusion that you are insignificant, and anything you do or will do, cannot possibly be required in activities of the divine...So, you are the one to ask yourself, what is to gain and what is to lose at the end of the day...

To your second question, same as the above, but with a twist, the creator made you intelligent, to make decisions for yourself. The creator knows the end of all, but gave you the chance and opportunity to make your choice! There are two ends for all, good or bad, so it is up to you, no one is forcing you not to do what you want, so do not complain when the creator does whatever he wants with you at the end of the day! It is as simple as that!

And the last, the evil in the world! So if there is no evil, you would believe?! Or would you find another reason not to believe? So what is evil? As an atheist, what do you believe is evil?!

sino:


The Almighty, The all-knowing Creator, who created the universe and all that is in it, that which you know and that which you are ignorant of, in your mind would the creator want to gain in testing His creation?! When you think about it properly, comparing the universe and yourself, then you should normally come to the conclusion that you are insignificant, and anything you do or will do, cannot possibly be required in activities of the divine...So, you are the one to ask yourself, what is to gain and what is to lose at the end of the day...

Wow!

Can't you read how absurd you sound?

Your God is claim to be self sufficient, he's almighty but he's very interested in his creation affairs that he even get angry. An almighty God who's so interested in humans living in a tiny dust in milky way galaxy?

So much for a self sufficient God.

To your second question, same as the above, but with a twist, the creator made you intelligent, to make decisions for yourself. The creator knows the end of all, but gave you the chance and opportunity to make your choice! There are two ends for all, good or bad, so it is up to you, no one is forcing you not to do what you want, so do not complain when the creator does whatever he wants with you at the end of the day! It is as simple as that!

You're contradicting yourself and making the creator looks unreasonable.

The creator knows our end and predestined it and yet he test us for what purpose? You know someone end and you're still testing the person with threats and hardship, does that make any sense? It's either you don't know someone's end or you know but test for no reason.

Actually your God is forcing his creation to do want he want with fear and threats. There are over billions of people not believing in your God and we have good people among them, your God will actually purnish good people for eternity.

And the last, the evil in the world! So if there is no evil, you would believe?! Or would you find another reason not to believe? So what is evil? As an atheist, what do you believe is evil?!

Your God already has a perfect place where evil doesn't exist which is paradise, he wants his creation in it but then he wants to test people when he knows all, when he can do the right thing. God is the primary source of evil, since he's the creator of all, he created Satan.

Evil is all negative things which is associated to Satan, which was created by your God who's all knowing.
God hate evil because he's omini-benevolent but then he made it(evil) exist.

It seems God is bored that he doesn't know what he's doing, he has no reason for he's doing or he knows but he's not all powerful as claim!

This is where the ominipotence paradox comes in.

tintingz:
Wow!

Can't you read how absurd you sound?

Your God is claim to be self sufficient, he's almighty but he's very interested in his creation affairs that he even get angry. An almighty God who's so interested in humans living in a tiny dust in milky way galaxy?

So much for a self sufficient God.

It is quite simple, and you would have to prove beyond your complains here that my God needs you! What does my God wants from you to think you are special?! My God says worship me so you can live a fulfilled life and have endless bliss afterlife! He sends down guidance and prophets to guide, so that you wouldn't have excuses that you didn't know, but you have rejected all these, and that does not diminish my God even by anything!

tintingz:

You're contradicting yourself and making the creator looks unreasonable.

The creator knows our end and predestined it and yet he test us for what purpose? You know someone end and you're still testing the person with threats and hardship, does that make any sense? It's either you don't know someone's end or you know but test for no reason.

Actually your God is forcing his creation to do want he want with fear and threats. There are over billions of people not believing in your God and we have good people among them, your God will actually purnish good people for eternity.

Lol! You are a good example of the facts that I have posted, you were once a Muslim, you believed in Allah (SWT) and now you have decided not to believe in Him anymore, no one forced you, or is it not your choice?! Let me now shock you, I know your end too, and it is either good or bad, but your actions, your decisions, your choices would ultimately determine this, and this is up to you! You are shown the right way and the wrong way, and are told of the consequences and yet you want to run away from your responsibilities?! Na God force you to choose wrongly?!

My God does not purnish without evidence against an individual that deserves it, for a random individual who is good and didn't here properly about my God, such perosn would not be punished! My God is the Just on judgement day, every individual shall get what s/he deserves. But for you, I'm afraid, as they say, your case is different! You rejected after you had believed, so you shouldn't complain about the consequences of your action, but can only wish them away, yeah, as you say, "my God does not exist" well, time would definitely tell...

tintingz:

Your God already has a perfect place where evil doesn't exist which is paradise, he wants his creation in it but then he wants to test people when he knows all, when he can do the right thing. God is the primary source of evil, since he's the creator of all, he created Satan.

Evil is all negative things existing which is associated to Satan, which was created by your God who's all knowing.
God hate evil because he's omini-benevolent but then he made it(evil) exist.

It seems God is bored that he doesn't know what he's doing, he has no reason for he's doing or he knows but he's not all powerful as claim!

This is where the ominipotence paradox comes in.

I'm going to skip the satan part, obviously, just like my God, you do not believe he exist, but I'll agree with you on the fact that God is the creator of everything. But you have not answered my question, and I'll repeat, as an atheist, what is evil?!

FYI, God does whatever He wants or Wills, and so many times, you think (in your small mind) something is evil but there is good in it, and if you are willing to answer my question above, then we can explore this my statement further...

abdullahi45:


I sent you pm already, we can chat more.

Sorry, not interested.

Let's talk here.

tintingz:
Sorry, not interested.

Let's talk here.

Your choice then. I dont have all day to be talking here. Sorry

sino:

It is quite simple, and you would have to prove beyond your complains here that my God needs you! What does my God wants from you to think you are special?! My God says worship me so you can live a fulfilled life and have endless bliss afterlife! He sends down guidance and prophets to guide, so that you wouldn't have excuses that you didn't know, but you have rejected all these, and that does not diminish my God even by anything!

Someone command you to worship him five times daily and you said he doesn't need anything!

So God did all these for people to enjoy eternally, God is all-powerful, self sufficient, all good and all knowing, yet he's struggling to make people believe he exist.

God sent down guidance against evil he created?

"Can God create a stone so heavy he could not lift it?"

Why can't God just make everything right instead of the ridiculous things you just mention up there.

Lol! You are a good example of the facts that I have posted, you were once a Muslim, you believed in Allah (SWT) and now you have decided not to believe in Him anymore, no one forced you, or is it not your choice?! Let me now shock you, I know your end too, and it is either good or bad, but your actions, your decisions, your choices would ultimately determine this, and this is up to you! You are shown the right way and the wrong way, and are told of the consequences and yet you want to run away from your responsibilities?! Na God force you to choose wrongly?!

Your reason here is the same way chriatians, jews etc reason. The right-way-wrong-way argument. Conflicting and absurd!

I left the religion I was indoctrinated with, I have seen the ridiculous things believing in a fairy anthropomorphic being in the sky.

We're talking about your God threats and anger on his creation, if your God actually knows my end and everyones end, if your God is omini-benevolent (all good), if your God is absolute source of morality, if your God actually exist, such thing as hell, evil, purnishment, disbelievers shouldn't exist.

The Quran said Allah has written everything down in a book.

Again, what's the purpose of your God in all these, when he knows the right thing to do, even humans have sense of morality and reasoning than your God.

My God does not purnish without evidence against an individual that deserves it, for a random individual who is good and didn't here properly about my God, such perosn would not be punished! My God is the Just on judgement day, every individual shall get what s/he deserves. But for you, I'm afraid, as they say, your case is different! You rejected after you had believed, so you shouldn't complain about the consequences of your action, but can only wish them away, yeah, as you say, "my God does not exist" well, time would definitely tell...

Oga, I'm talking about good, kind people but disbelieve in your God, will your God purnish them eternally?

Your case is also different in front of Yahweh, Odin, Ra, Ukulunkulu, Olorun, Brahma.

I'm going to skip the satan part, obviously, just like my God, you do not believe he exist, but I'll agree with you on the fact that God is the creator of everything. But you have not answered my question, and I'll repeat, as an atheist, what is evil?!

FYI, God does whatever He wants or Wills, and so many times, you think (in your small mind) something is evil but there is good in it, and if you are willing to answer my question above, then we can explore this my statement further...

I don't believe they exist does not mean I can't talk about thier absurdity (argumentum ad absurdum), don't try to excuse yourself out, good you agree God is also the source of evil.

Have I not answer that? Evil is negative things, immorality.

The bolded part, is like saying God do/does unreasonable things.

Your God is all-good, absolute source of morality, why or how then evil exist, if you claim it's freewill, why then God wants/allow evil to exist when he's absolute moral?

tintingz:
Even though this reply was not what I asked.

So by your logic(for believing there is a God), since the brain is complex there must be an intelligent design as the creator, so with this the intelligent design must also be complex, so in this case, this intelligent design must also have a higher complex intelligent design as creator and it goes on like that.

Let me reverse it, how do you suppose the brain should be without an intelligent design?

Replying your explanation, it goes on like that to infinity (God).

Reply to your question, the similitude of this question is asking me that how will human survive if there is nothing like food. Well, I simply do not know. Do you?

uthlaw:
I'm also a Muslim but what is confusing me is that.God that created us to worship him had already destined some of us will be poor and go to hell even before coming to this world in our destiny.what is the test again.

Lmao, Sino... Even your fellow Muslim is confused about your God absurd actions.

ypeace:


Replying your explanation, it goes on like that to infinity (God).

Reply to your question, the similitude of this question is asking me that how will human survive if there is nothing like food. Well, I simply do not know. Do you?

Food is tangible thing we eat when hungry, it's far unrelated to your imaginary being in the sky.

Just accept that even without the idea of an intelligent design, the brain would still be a complex thing, accident can be a complex thing.

Meaning it's better to just be agnostic(I don't know), than claiming what you have no clue of it existence exist, in the future the brain might not be complex to us.

abdullahi45:


Your choice then. I dont have all day to be talking here. Sorry

Ok

tintingz:
Food is tangible thing we eat when hungry, it's far unrelated to your imaginary being in the sky.

Just accept that even without the idea of an intelligent design, the brain would still be a complex thing, accident can be a complex thing.

Meaning it's better to just be agnostic(I don't know), than claiming what you have no clue of it existence exist, in the future the brain might not be complex to us.

Accident 'can' be a complex thing (but not a complex working system), the brain 'is' a complex thing (and a working system in another complex system)....

And my base point is, systems (whether complex or simple) do not build up without an intelligent design.

Ok, I accept food is a tangible thing and I used food because I thought you could put them in the same context.

I will rephrase, the similitude of the question you asked me is like asking how will this world be without love (the one humans feel for themselves). I simply do not know, do you?

Modified:
Or even better, how do you suppose a cellphone should be without an intelligent design?

tintingz:
Someone command you to worship him five times daily and you said he doesn't need anything!

So God did all these for people to enjoy eternally, God is all-powerful, self sufficient, all good and all knowing, yet he's struggling to make people believe he exist.

God sent down guidance against evil he created?

"Can God create a stone so heavy he could not lift it?"

Why can't God just make everything right instead of the ridiculous things you just mention up there.

You see, if you cannot prove what God would gain from worshipping Him, then you have no point! And the easiest way for human intellect to know that an act is of benefit to another is to show the opposite result when such act is stopped! If we all stop paying taxes to government, the government would fail in its responsibilities.

And where do you see that God is struggling?! For one who claims God does not exist, you sure have so many weird information about this your "imaginary" God o.

What I see in your questions is that you want God to do what you want, and that my friend is the real absurdity and ridiculousness!

tintingz:

Your reason here is the same way chriatians, jews etc reason. The right-way-wrong-way argument. Conflicting and absurd!


I left the religion I was indoctrinated with, I have seen the ridiculous things believing in a fairy anthropomorphic being in the sky.

We're talking about your God threats and anger on his creation, if your God actually knows my end and everyones end, if your God is omini-benevolent (all good), if your God is absolute source of morality, if your God actually exist, such thing as hell, evil, purnishment, disbelievers shouldn't exist.

The Quran said Allah has written everything down in a book.

Again, what's the purpose of your God in all these, when he knows the right thing to do, even humans have sense of morality and reasoning than your God.

Please always try as much as possible to focus on my God and my religion, however, since it is obvious that there happens to be a dichotomy in our reality, good and bad, right and wrong, then it would only be foolhardy to deny this facts about our reality, and this dichotomy serves as the basis of all human endeavours including legislation within and amongst committee of nations.

Yes you left, and the world did not end, and you have not found any enlightenment whatsoever to disprove the existence of my God! Because when I tell you my God is outside of His creation, you have no answers, because you have little or no knowledge of what is even within the universe, talk more of what is outside!

Like I stated don't mix things up, My God is the Merciful and also He (SWT) is swift and severe in His purnishment. You and you alone is responsible for what you get, if you didn't create yourself, and still clueless about how the universe came into existence, then what gives you the right to demand how the world should be?! If you don't like the way it is, what options do you have?! Deny God?! Then what?! Does it change the facts of your reality?!

Since you believe you have more sense of morality than my God, why not change all these things you believe to be immoral?! You should state what you are doing, abi it is just to come online to say you do not believe in God anymore, and the world has become paradise?!

tintingz:

Oga, I'm talking about good, kind people but disbelieve in your God, will your God purnish them eternally?

Your case is also different in front of Yahweh, Odin, Ra, Ukulunkulu, Olorun, Brahma.

And what part of if they were not presented with the religion properly, and that they shall be rewarded according to their deeds do you fail to understand?! My God is the Just, and wouldn't do an atom of injustice to anyone.

What you keep failing to umderstand is that as a Muslim, I believe Yahweh is God, and all other names of calling God in other languages, there is only one God! So I'm not perturbed, because I worship only the one God!

tintingz:

I don't believe they exist does not mean I can't talk about thier absurdity (argumentum ad absurdum), don't try to excuse yourself out, good you agree God is also the source of evil.

Have I not answer that? Evil is negative things, immorality.

The bolded part, is like saying God do/does unreasonable things.

Your God is all-good, absolute source of morality, why or how then evil exist, if you claim it's freewill, why then God wants/allow evil to exist when he's absolute moral?

Yes I know you can argue anything, but hardly would you see a reasonable person arguing about what does not exist all the time, but it's your prerogative, just saying...

Of course God is the source of everything, including evil that exist, which you have defined to be negative things and immorality. How do you come to the conclusion that there are negative things and immoral things?! If for example sake, your wife, who was about to poison you due to her having an affair with another man, was killed in an earthquake, is the earthquake negative to you or immoral to your wife?

tintingz:
Lmao, Sino... Even your fellow Muslim is confused about your God absurd actions.

The young man might be confused perhaps due to lack of proper information about what is destined and what is reward and purnishment for individual's actions here on earth!

Your destiny with regards to hell or paradise is as a result of your actions here on earth! As the saying goes, "as you lay your bed, so you shall lie on it". You can't be playing when you were supposed to be reading and when you fail, claim that it is your destiny! That is not what Islam preaches! Allah ( SWT ) says, everyone shall get whatsoever he strives for! So if you strive for hell you will get it, and if you strive for paradise, you will get it, and that is why there are challenges, difficulties, tests, whatever you want to call it, in the path of whatever you want! So again, it is your choice!

ypeace:

Accident 'can' be a complex thing (but not a complex working system), the brain 'is' a complex thing (and a working system in another complex system)....

And my base point is, systems (whether complex or simple) do not build up without an intelligent design.

My point is a complex system shouldn't a must come from an "intelligent" design, the galaxies, stars is formed as a result of multiple accidents(collapsing and colliding) and its a complex system.

A system accident is also part of complex system.

Hope you what intelligence means?

Ok, I accept food is a tangible thing and I used food because I thought you could put them in the same context.

I will rephrase, the similitude of the question you asked me is like asking how will this world be without love (the one humans feel for themselves). I simply do not know, do you?

That's why I said it's better to be agnostic than concluding some intelligent design in the sky did it(God of the gaps).

It's called aguements from ignorance.

Modified:
Or even better, how do you suppose a cellphone should be without an intelligent design?

A cellphone is not complex, for the fact that we see upgraded phone versions produce daily by manufacturers shows it's not complex, also shows they are not perfectly intelligent.

sino:

You see, if you cannot prove what God would gain from worshipping Him, then you have no point! And the easiest way for human intellect to know that an act is of benefit to another is to show the opposite result when such act is stopped! If we all stop paying taxes to government, the government would fail in its responsibilities.

You want me to prove what God would gain from worshiping him? Did you actually ask that?

You're the one worshiping God five times daily, freaking five times daily!, why not tell me what a self sufficient God what to gain in it? The burden is on you.

The government is not self sufficient that's why it depends on the citizens.

And where do you see that God is struggling?! For one who claims God does not exist, you sure have so many weird information about this your "imaginary" God o.

You just claim your God sent guidance and prophets to make people believe he exist, if an almighty God exist why does he need people to be his mouth piece?

At least we read the fictions in the mythical books how God is displaying left and right when camera never exist.

What I see in your questions is that you want God to do what you want, and that my friend is the real absurdity and ridiculousness!

And what's wrong for God to do what I want, to prove he exist.

Is that so much for God to do?

Please always try as much as possible to focus on my God and my religion, however, since it is obvious that there happens to be a dichotomy in our reality, good and bad, right and wrong, then it would only be foolhardy to deny this facts about our reality, and this dichotomy serves as the basis of all human endeavours including legislation within and amongst committee of nations.

This here agree with me your God is not absolute moral.

Yes you left, and the world did not end, and you have not found any enlightenment whatsoever to disprove the existence of my God! Because when I tell you my God is outside of His creation, you have no answers, because you have little or no knowledge of what is even within the universe, talk more of what is outside!

I just disprove the existence of your perfect God by pointing out it paradox and you just agree with me above.

Did I want the world to end when I left your Religion.

Your God is outside his creation because he's imaginary and only visit his creation in the mythical book.

Like I stated don't mix things up, My God is the Merciful and also He (SWT) is swift and severe in His purnishment. You and you alone is responsible for what you get, if you didn't create yourself, and still clueless about how the universe came into existence, then what gives you the right to demand how the world should be?! If you don't like the way it is, what options do you have?! Deny God?! Then what?! Does it change the facts of your reality?!

Argument from ignorance!

What gives the Quran right to state how the world should be when it's filled with humans intellects? That's how you sound up there.

Since you believe you have more sense of morality than my God, why not change all these things you believe to be immoral?! You should state what you are doing, abi it is just to come online to say you do not believe in God anymore, and the world has become paradise?!

What are you even saying here.

And what part of if they were not presented with the religion properly, and that they shall be rewarded according to their deeds do you fail to understand?! My God is the Just, and wouldn't do an atom of injustice to anyone.

If a traditionalist is good, kind, give charity but reject your God, will God purnish him/her eternally?

Answer and stop dodging.

What you keep failing to umderstand is that as a Muslim, I believe Yahweh is God, and all other names of calling God in other languages, there is only one God! So I'm not perturbed, because I worship only the one God!

Yahweh, Brahma, Ra is God?

Hope you know these Gods are different from Allah.

Yes I know you can argue anything, but hardly would you see a reasonable person arguing about what does not exist all the time, but it's your prerogative, just saying...

We have seen intelligent people arguing about comic characters that doesn't exist, philosophers debating imaginary entities.

It's not that I come here all the time to argue, I have things doing for myself.

Of course God is the source of everything, including evil that exist, which you have defined to be negative things and immorality. How do you come to the conclusion that there are negative things and immoral things?! If for example sake, your wife, who was about to poison you due to her having an affair with another man, was killed in an earthquake, is the earthquake negative to you or immoral to your wife?

God is the source of evil, then he's not all good. I will bookmark this part for future reference. I wonder why you spent your days rebuking Satan.

I know when something is immoral by using my empathy, while each societies define what should be moral and immoral. It's just subjective in reality.

As for your example, The earthquake is negative not because it killed my wife but because of the thousands people it will kill including children, it's chaotic in nature

sino:

The young man might be confused perhaps due to lack of proper information about what is destined and what is reward and purnishment for individual's actions here on earth!

Your destiny with regards to hell or paradise is as a result of your actions here on earth! As the saying goes, "as you lay your bed, so you shall lie on it". You can't be playing when you were supposed to be reading and when you fail, claim that it is your destiny! That is not what Islam preaches! Allah ( SWT ) says, everyone shall get whatsoever he strives for! So if you strive for hell you will get it, and if you strive for paradise, you will get it, and that is why there are challenges, difficulties, tests, whatever you want to call it, in the path of whatever you want! So again, it is your choice!

Did God foreknow and predestined my actions and foreknows my end before I exist?

tintingz:
You want me to prove what God would gain from worshiping him? Did you actually ask that?

You're the one worshiping God five times daily, freaking five times daily!, why not tell me what a self sufficient God what to gain in it? The burden is on you.

The government is not self sufficient that's why it depends on the citizens.

I have shown to you how insignificant you are, and further tried to enlighten you that you are the one gaining or losing as the case may be. And using you as an example, you and so many others have become disbelievers after they had believed, and still you ask what is God to gain? Have those like you from time immemorial who have disbelieved affected God?! If yes, how, if no, then you have no point! Simple!

tintingz:

You just claim your God sent guidance and prophets to make people believe he exist, if an almighty God exist why does he need people to be his mouth piece?

At least we read the fictions in the mythical books how God is displaying left and right when camera never exist.

And what's wrong for God to do what I want, to prove he exist.

Is that so much for God to do?

And is that the struggle?! That he sent guidance through messengers?! Lol, I guess you feel you deserve some form of special treatment and I ask why?! God has used the medium He wants to prove His existence to you, it is up to you to accept or deny, you have no say in how God should be God! Heck! You do not even have a say to how the cells in your body divides, so what are you really feeling like

tintingz:

This here agree with me your God is not absolute moral.

Read my post you have responded to properly and tell me what has what you typed here got to do with it!

tintingz:

I just disprove the existence of your perfect God by pointing out it paradox and you just agree with me above.

Did I want the world to end when I left your Religion.

Kindly enlighten me, where is the paradox, how did I agree?!

tintingz:

Your God is outside his creation because he's imaginary and only visit his creation in the mythical book.

Nah, you want to believe my God is imaginary, so you insist God must show Himself to you before you believe, but we both know that because we do not see something doesn't mean there is nothing, and still, you are coming short in proving my God is Imaginary since you yourself believe in the possibility of other life forms within our universe e.g. aliens...

tintingz:

Argument from ignorance!

What gives the Quran right to state how the world should be when it's filled with humans intellects? That's how you sound up there.

What are you even saying here.

Qur'an has all the right to state whatever, since we believe it is the word of God. But what right do you have?! What can you do about it?! Did you create yourself?! Can you even demand that your cells responsible for taking oxygen to rather take Nitrogen?! When you lack control of the basic unit of life, how then do you think you have any say to how the world should be?!

tintingz:

If a traditionalist is good, kind, give charity but reject your God, will God purnish him/her eternally?

Answer and stop dodging.

Lol, ask this question 1 million times, it is still the same answer, you want me to tell you he is going to burn in hell forever right?! But sorry to burst your bubble, my God is the Just, he would never do injustice to anyone, you shall reap what you sow! You will get what you deserve at the end of the day!

tintingz:


Yahweh, Brahma, Ra is God?

Hope you know these Gods are different from Allah.

Read and understand my post properly, every culture and people believe in a supreme being, they may call Him by any name in their languages, but that isn't a barrier for a Muslim!

tintingz:

We have seen intelligent people arguing about comic characters that doesn't exist, philosophers debating imaginary entities.

It's not that I come here all the time to argue, I have things doing for myself.

I didn't talk about being intelligent, I said being reasonable! What would be the essence debating about superman or naruto?!

Good you have things doing...

tintingz:

God is the source of evil, then he's not all good. I will bookmark this part for future reference. I wonder why you spent your days rebuking Satan.

Lol, there are purposes for everything created including evil/satan. You can focus on evil/satan and whine all day, or you can see the opportunities, overcoming evil/satan and becoming great and reaching eternal bliss...it is a half full/ half empty glass of water...

tintingz:

I know when something is immoral by using my empathy, while each societies define what should be moral and immoral. It's just subjective in reality.

As for your example, The earthquake is negative not because it killed my wife but because of the thousands people it will kill including children, it's chaotic in nature

And this empathy, where did you find it?! Do we all have it?! If it is subjective how then do you come to the conclusion that evil is negative and immoral? If my empathy doesn't see anything wrong in killing you, I'm I evil? Does your empathy works only for humans or also to other living things?! Why do you not find it evil to kill and eat other animals?!

If you just stated that the earthquake is negative based on your subjective reality, what if the subjective reality of those who were killed was that it was positive, then where does this leave your negativity?! Mind you, I just read earlier today that there happens to be environmental benefits of earthquakes! So, then what is really evil/negative and immoral?!

tintingz:
Did God foreknow and predestined my actions and foreknows my end before I exist?

All the possible actions that you can take are known to Allah SWT as well as all the possible outcome, but it is up to you to choose your actions, which would eventually lead you to your destiny! But God being the Merciful, didn't leave you to just make random choices like a gambler, He SWT sent guidance as well as consequences for your actions so you wouldn't give excuses for making the wrong choices! So it is up to you!

sino:


I have shown to you how insignificant you are, and further tried to enlighten you that you are the one gaining or losing as the case may be. And using you as an example, you and so many others have become disbelievers after they had believed, and still you ask what is God to gain? Have those like you from time immemorial who have disbelieved affected God?! If yes, how, if no, then you have no point! Simple!

What does a self sufficient God wants to gain from worshiping him five times daily, stop dodging and shifting left and right.

If you don't have answers, then we will assume worshiping God is meaningless.

And is that the struggle?! That he sent guidance through messengers?! Lol, I guess you feel you deserve some form of special treatment and I ask why?! God has used the medium He wants to prove His existence to you, it is up to you to accept or deny, you have no say in how God should be God! Heck! You do not even have a say to how the cells in your body divides, so what are you really feeling like

Lol, if God exist we shouldn't be debating his existence just how we don't debate if the sun exist.

You shouldn't be God mouth piece if he exist, you're the one making God exist, God depends on you to exist.

Read my post you have responded to properly and tell me what has what you typed here got to do with it!

You just agree your God is not absolute moral.

Humans have the ability to determine what's wrong and right.

Kindly enlighten me, where is the paradox, how did I agree?!

An absolute Good God is also the source of evil, that's paradox(self contradictions).

An all powerful God need to send guidance against evil he created, that's another paradox.

"Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?"

Nah, you want to believe my God is imaginary, so you insist God must show Himself to you before you believe, but we both know that because we do not see something doesn't mean there is nothing, and still, you are coming short in proving my God is Imaginary since you yourself believe in the possibility of other life forms within our universe e.g. aliens...

Hope you know possibility means likelihood, chance which is built on assumptions, prediction, imaginations.

Your anthropomorphic God is imaginary, even Aliens. Nothing fact or certain about thier existence.

Qur'an has all the right to state whatever, since we believe it is the word of God. But what right do you have?! What can you do about it?! Did you create yourself?! Can you even demand that your cells responsible for taking oxygen to rather take Nitrogen?! When you lack control of the basic unit of life, how then do you think you have any say to how the world should be?!

The Quran has no right because it was written by an Arab man in an ancient desert in the middle east. You claim I have no right to have a say about the universe then the mythical book has no right also.

You're still arguing from ignorance, using God of the gaps.

I don't know how I came to be therefore Brahma created me or it is Odin or it is Prometheus.

Lol, ask this question 1 million times, it is still the same answer, you want me to tell you he is going to burn in hell forever right?! But sorry to burst your bubble, my God is the Just, he would never do injustice to anyone, you shall reap what you sow! You will get what you deserve at the end of the day!

But the Quran said those who reject Allah will burn in hell forever.

Here's a honest counter response from your fellow Muslim brother in a thread.

AbdelKabir:


You see a fool(the Christian on this thread) among the fools you are trying to flatter? What have you gotten now, an applause? Mtcheeew....

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 72:

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran

This aayah has made takfeer of all Christians and whoever worships other than Allaah, be it Jew or even someone who claims to be Muslim.

Allaah also made takfeer of those that disbelieve in the message sent to Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, be whoever it is, Jew, Christian, sabi'een, as far as you disbelieve in Muhammad you are going to be in hell forever.

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 90:
بِئْسَمَا اشْتَرَوْا بِهِ أَنفُسَهُمْ أَن يَكْفُرُوا بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ بَغْيًا أَن يُنَزِّلَ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ عَلَىٰ مَن يَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ فَبَاءُوا بِغَضَبٍ عَلَىٰ غَضَبٍ وَلِلْكَافِرِينَ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ

How bad is that for which they have sold their ownselves, that they should disbelieve in that which Allah has revealed (the Quran), grudging that Allah should reveal of His Grace unto whom He will of His slaves. So they have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers, there is disgracing torment.
(English - Mohsin Khan)

via iQuran

So from that verse Allaah promises those who disbelieve in Muhammad a disgracing toment and he explicitly called them "kaafiroon".

So whoever denies these verses, has called Allaah a liar and has become a kafir...

https://www.nairaland.com/4614795/why-hell-fire-distributors-close#69362613

Wether the person is good and kind is not Allah's business, as long as they reject Allah, he will burn the good, kind disbelievers in hell forever.

What a God!

Read and understand my post properly, every culture and people believe in a supreme being, they may call Him by any name in their languages, but that isn't a barrier for a Muslim!

Every Religion and cultures have thier Gods with thier stories and they believe it to be true. The story of Hindu supreme God Brahma is different to that of Yoruba supreme God Olodumare, Yahweh is different from Allah.

There's different substituting or replacing a language, nature of God and believing in the God.

E.g Yoruba Muslims replace the supreme diety Olorun as Allah in the Quran. Many don't even know Olorun is a polytheistic deity.

I didn't talk about being intelligent, I said being reasonable! What would be the essence debating about superman or naruto?!

Good you have things doing...

Because it fetch them money and it's entertaining.

Do you know the blockbuster and box office these characters are in the world?

Black Panther box office is $1.347 billion!

These characters have create communities in the world.

Lol, there are purposes for everything created including evil/satan. You can focus on evil/satan and whine all day, or you can see the opportunities, overcoming evil/satan and becoming great and reaching eternal bliss...it is a half full/ half empty glass of water...

It doesn't take away your God is the source of evil, you're wasting your time and it's meaningless rebuking Satan.

Rebuke the source of Evil and you're good.

And this empathy, where did you find it?! Do we all have it?! If it is subjective how then do you come to the conclusion that evil is negative and immoral? If my empathy doesn't see anything wrong in killing you, I'm I evil? Does your empathy works only for humans or also to other living things?! Why do you not find it evil to kill and eat other animals?!

SMH.

The concept of evil is universal, the concept of good and bad is universal, the applications surrounding them is subjective.

If your empathy doesn't see anything wrong killing me then you're evil and lack empathy, infact you will term a psychopath.

Morality is supposed to be objective but it's not in reality.

If you just stated that the earthquake is negative based on your subjective reality, what if the subjective reality of those who were killed was that it was positive, then where does this leave your negativity?! Mind you, I just read earlier today that there happens to be environmental benefits of earthquakes! So, then what is really evil/negative and immoral?!

The earth may benefit from earthquake or may not either of the two the Earth has nothing to loose, nothing is taken away, it benefit can be minuscule(tiny). We're talking about humanity here, earthquake is chaotic to us, it can wipe out a community, it's called natural disaster(negative) for a reason. No one wish for earthquake to happen!

What if People, relatives and children killed in earthquake is positive in thier reality? Are you making sense at all?

Even if we assume it's positive in thier imaginative reality, how does that make it non-disasterous in nature?