Brokay2908:

Why then do we see people have a dream which later come to pass in real life? And if there is no communications through revelations, what other ways is God communicating with His people these days.

Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

mikkyjagga1:
Thanks for this, means alot to me! God bless you

I am very happy to help, brother.

Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.
I've not followed this from the beginning but from your few points, I believe you are saying God don't speak through dreams anymore..

God speaks in diverse ways sir. Until now, HE is still speaking and the ways HE spoke in time past are still ways in which HE is speaking today. HE speaks through some of these ways:
1. From the scriptures
2. That small still voice.
3. Through dreams
4. Through trance
5. Through tongues when the interpreter is there to interpret it.
6. Through word of knowledge
7. Through word of wisdom
8. Through prophecy..

The fact is that GOD is still speaking and if we yield ourselves to hear from God, he will still speak to us today..

Hello lightwhite. I left a message for you on another thread, the one you most recently commented on but perhaps you'll find a message here more easily. Please email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com. I failed to receive your email sent through Nairaland.

Cheers.

Pasqual:
Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.
I've not followed this from the beginning but from your few points, I believe you are saying God don't speak through dreams anymore..

God speaks in diverse ways sir. Until now, HE is still speaking and the ways HE spoke in time past are still ways in which HE is speaking today. HE speaks through some of these ways:
1. From the scriptures
2. That small still voice.
3. Through dreams
4. Through trance
5. Through tongues when the interpreter is there to interpret it.
6. Through word of knowledge
7. Through word of wisdom
8. Through prophecy..

The fact is that GOD is still speaking and if we yield ourselves to hear from God, he will still speak to us today..

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. My reasons are in the post you quoted. I shared two Bible passages to explain.

Though I have many examples of dreams coming true, let me just share this. I have a friend who before was a Muslim. Somewhere, he met someone who preached to him but he still didn't receive the gospel. Finally, he slept and had a vision-like dream which was so real and shook him to his bones. The dream is a kind of illustration of what happened to those that received Christ and those that do not. Immediately waking up from that dream, he sought after this brother who had been preaching to him and was converted. By God's grace he has received a call of God related to evangelism upon his life with gifts of the spirit including speaking in tongues, prophecies, visions, healing...he is now bearing the fruits of the kingdom.

Are we now going to still say this and numerous other things we witness among Christians support the belief that there is no more workings and communications of God like in the Apostolic era?

ihedinobi2:


Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

Brokay2908:
Though I have many examples of dreams coming true, let me just share this. I have a friend who before was a Muslim. Somewhere, he met someone who preached to him but he still didn't receive the gospel. Finally, he slept and had a vision-like dream which was so real and shook him to his bones. The dream is a kind of illustration of what happened to those that received Christ and those that do not. Immediately waking up from that dream, he sought after this brother who had been preaching to him and was converted. By God's grace he has received a call of God related to evangelism upon his life with gifts of the spirit including speaking in tongues, prophecies, visions, healing...he is now bearing the fruits of the kingdom.

Are we now going to still say this and numerous other things we witness among Christians support the belief that there is no more workings and communications of God like in the Apostolic era?

As I said, I cannot be certain what anyone dreamed even if the result of the dream is their salvation and zeal for the Lord. But I am very glad to hear that that is how things worked out in this instance. My conviction is that everything that the person in question had been hearing about the Gospel perhaps coupled with their own experiences of life built together into a dream as our minds are wont to do and that made him take it seriously enough to seek to be saved. Dreams come from the varied activities of each day (Ecclesiastes 5:3).

No doubt, God has used dreams to communicate to mankind in the past and will do so again during the Tribulation but whenever He does, He overrides normal sequence in doing so. Our dreams normally result from the things that occupy our minds everyday.

ihedinobi2:


Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

Sir, do you believe God still calls people into spiritual offices?

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the work of ministry, of edification, of perfection is not yet complete, how will the Holy Spirit retire His works on the body of Christ?

Apostle Paul also exhorted churches about spiritual gifts like, especially the Corinthian church If gifts of the Holy Spirit were meant to just complete the writing of the words and works of Jesus, then it should only be limited to these specific Apostles who were given that work, or at most only the original 12 or 120, not extended to and functioning in the congregations they established. For what purpose will the congregations, even in the absence of the Apostles, be demonstrating the gifts of the spirit. I guess the Apostles themselves gave reasons for the manifestations other spirit in the church.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Brokay2908:


Sir, do you believe God still calls people into spiritual offices?

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the work of ministry, of edification, of perfection is not yet complete, how will the Holy Spirit retire His works on the body of Christ?

Apostle Paul also exhorted churches about spiritual gifts like, especially the Corinthian church If gifts of the Holy Spirit were meant to just complete the writing of the words and works of Jesus, then it should only be limited to these specific Apostles who were given that work, or at most only the original 12 or 120, not extended to and functioning in the congregations they established. For what purpose will the congregations, even in the absence of the Apostles, be demonstrating the gifts of the spirit. I guess the Apostles themselves gave reasons for the manifestations other spirit in the church.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Yes, I do believe that the Lord still calls us into offices in the Church. But I do believe as well that some offices have been retired. The offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired because the foundation of the Church has been laid:

Ephesians 2:20
[20]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone

1 Corinthians 3:10
[10]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.


There are still works to do even as the context of the first verse and the second verse above teach. The foundation may have been laid but we still have to build on it, so, there are still evangelists and pastor-teachers. Then in addition to these, there are still myriad other gifts given to aid them in their work of bringing repentant unbelievers into the Church and feeding and raising them up in the Truth so that we each come to maturity and are able to help others as well.

You are right that the miracles and gifts were not limited to the apostles. Acts 6:8 is one of many examples of passages that indicate that many other believers were gifted in like manner. And the succeeding chapter to the one in 1 Corinthians that you quoted made it clear that other believers had an assortment of such sign gifts. The reason for this was that the New Testament was not complete at the time and was not widely distributed. Until it was, the Church needed verification of divine authority for everyone who claimed to speak in God's Name. That was especially what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2:4. But once the New Testament was complete and accessible, there was no further need for signs or even for prophets and apostles. See 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

ihedinobi2:


Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

If the dream was a result of the preaching, then, I guess those that have been preached to will likewise be having such kind of revelational dreams and they too would have been converted. Their salvation will just follow that process in like manner. But you and I know this is not the case. There is no way we can remove God's hand in the conversion of souls.

What does this mean?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We cannot begin to separate the spirit from the word, or else we kill it. Without the Holy Spirit teaching us and convicting sinners, the word is as good as dead.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

ihedinobi2:


As I said, I cannot be certain what anyone dreamed even if the result of the dream is their salvation and zeal for the Lord. But I am very glad to hear that that is how things worked out in this instance. My conviction is that everything that the person in question had been hearing about the Gospel perhaps coupled with their own experiences of life built together into a dream as our minds are wont to do and that made him take it seriously enough to seek to be saved. Dreams come from the varied activities of each day (Ecclesiastes 5:3).

No doubt, God has used dreams to communicate to mankind in the past and will do so again during the Tribulation but whenever He does, He overrides normal sequence in doing so. Our dreams normally result from the things that occupy our minds everyday.

If the dream was a result of the preaching, then, I guess those that have been preached to will likewise be having such kind of revelational dreams and they too would have been converted. Their salvation will just follow that process in like manner. But you and I know this is not the case. There is no way we can remove God's hand in the conversion of souls.

What does this mean?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We cannot begin to separate the spirit from the word, or else we kill it. Without the Holy Spirit teaching us and convicting sinners, the word is as good as dead.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Brokay2908:
If the dream was a result of the preaching, then, I guess those that have been preached to will likewise be having such kind of revelational dreams and they too would have been converted. Their salvation will just follow that process in like manner. But you and I know this is not the case. There is no way we can remove God's hand in the conversion of souls.

What does this mean?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We cannot begin to separate the spirit from the word, or else we kill it. Without the Holy Spirit teaching us and convicting sinners, the word is as good as dead.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

That does not quite follow. Each person has different priorities and concerns. So our dreams are different. I will dream of whatever has most occupied my thoughts and energized my emotions at night and you will dream of whatever has occupied your thoughts and energized your emotions at night. It is entirely possible that someone comes to a crossroads about questions of eternity and hears the Gospel at this critical juncture and that leads to very vivid and troubled dreams about his choices and he as a result accords the Gospel its due respect and is saved. This too is a work of God. It need not be a revelation from the Lord Himself any more than the Lord needs to appear from Heaven for everyone who is saved just because He did it for the apostle Paul. Again, it does not follow that that the Hand of the Lord is removed just because the dream was not a divine revelation.

Of course I agree that the Spirit is the One Who convicts us to repent and turn to the Lord. But it need not be in this manner. His Ways are myriad and varied. I feel sure that you yourself was saved under different circumstances. I personally was saved when I was so young that I don't even remember how it happened. Then several years later, my salvation was confirmed to me under circumstances that were significantly different from your friend's. There need not be a dream or a vision or anything of that sort for the Lord to have been involved.

ihedinobi2:


Yes, I do believe that the Lord still calls us into offices in the Church. But I do believe as well that some offices have been retired. The offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired because the foundation of the Church has been laid:

Ephesians 2:20
[20]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone

1 Corinthians 3:10
[10]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.


There are still works to do even as the context of the first verse and the second verse above teach. The foundation may have been laid but we still have to build on it, so, there are still evangelists and pastor-teachers. Then in addition to these, there are still myriad other gifts given to aid them in their work of bringing repentant unbelievers into the Church and feeding and raising them up in the Truth so that we each come to maturity and are able to help others as well.

You are right that the miracles and gifts were not limited to the apostles. Acts 6:8 is one of many examples of passages that indicate that many other believers were gifted in like manner. And the succeeding chapter to the one in 1 Corinthians that you quoted made it clear that other believers had an assortment of such sign gifts. The reason for this was that the New Testament was not complete at the time and was not widely distributed. Until it was, the Church needed verification of divine authority for everyone who claimed to speak in God's Name. That was especially what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2:4. But once the New Testament was complete and accessible, there was no further need for signs or even for prophets and apostles. See 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says they will be done away with when the perfect comes...but has the perfect comes?
You said in your earlier post that there won't be need for the miracles and signs until tribulation, why then would we need it at the time when the foundation of the church has already been laid, since you said above that He retired some offices - they were only for foundational works. And as a matter of fact, Christ is regarded as the Foundation of the Church on which the Apostles and Prophets built on (Ephesians 2:20).

ihedinobi2:


That does not quite follow. Each person has different priorities and concerns. So our dreams are different. I will dream of whatever has most occupied my thoughts and energized my emotions at night and you will dream of whatever has occupied your thoughts and energized your emotions at night. It is entirely possible that someone comes to a crossroads about questions of eternity and hears the Gospel at this critical juncture and that leads to very vivid and troubled dreams about his choices and he as a result accords the Gospel its due respect and is saved. This too is a work of God. It need not be a revelation from the Lord Himself any more than the Lord needs to appear from Heaven for everyone who is saved just because He did it for the apostle Paul. Again, it does not follow that that the Hand of the Lord is removed just because the dream was not a divine revelation.

Of course I agree that the Spirit is the One Who convicts us to repent and turn to the Lord. But it need not be in this manner. His Ways are myriad and varied. I feel sure that you yourself was saved under different circumstances. I personally was saved when I was so young that I don't even remember how it happened. Then several years later, my salvation was confirmed to me under circumstances that were significantly different from your friend's. There need not be a dream or a vision or anything of that sort for the Lord to have been involved.

But this doesn't mean we should exclude dreams and visions. God can use any method including dreams and visions

Brokay2908: But why are we asked to be perfect?

Sorry, didn't see this question before.

We are commanded to be perfect because we are supposed to prove our calling and our choice of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Master by striving to be like Him. But we will never be perfect with a body of sin. What counts though is that we demonstrate our desire for perfection by striving moment by moment, day by day to actually be perfect and confessing every sin and every failure so that we maintain fellowship with the Lord in fervent hope of a day when we will exchange this sinful body for a perfect, eternally sinless one.

Brokay2908:
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says they will be done away with when the perfect comes...but has the perfect comes?
You said in your earlier post that there won't be need for the miracles and signs until tribulation, why then would we need it at the time when the foundation of the church has already been laid, since you said above that He retired some offices - they were only for foundational works. And as a matter of fact, Christ is regarded as the Foundation of the Church on which the Apostles and Prophets built on (Ephesians 2:20).

"The perfect" here is the complete Bible. And obviously it has come. There is no doubt that that verse referred to more than just the complete Bible. We are also looking forward to the Return Of The Lord and the restoration of all things to its original perfect state before Adam sinned and also to the New Heavens and New Earth where there will be no sin at all. In each of these instances, when the perfect comes, the imperfect will give way. When the Lord returns, the current evil world that lies in the evil one (1 John 5:19) will be destroyed (not the whole physical world, just the spiritual system) and replaced with a renewed world where the curse of Genesis 3 will be lifted and an Eden-like state will be restored.

Then also, after His 1000-year reign, the entire physical universe will be destroyed and a completely new creation made to replace it where all of God's Family will live forever with Him without any more unrighteousness.

But, primarily, the context was about the Scriptures. Once they were completed, the need for verification of divine authority would no longer exist. Therefore the proofs of divine authority, namely, the signs - miracles etc -, would be retired. That is what happened.

The Tribulation is a special period when the Lord will focus almost exclusively on Israel's spiritual Salvation. Since we the Gentiles have already responded to the Gospel over the last nearly 2000 years in such overwhelming numbers while Israel has been partially hardened with a small minority believing in the Lord Jesus over the same time, it will be their turn to listen to men who have been specially ordained by the Lord to bring the Gospel to them. These men will actually recreate the Jewish religious system in a manner that properly communicates the Gospel to them. Because this will all be a very novel affair, their authority will need to be verified and it will be with miraculous signs such as have never been seen since the days of the apostles and prophets.

So, it is still about laying the foundation but for the Jews, not for everybody. And it is necessary for the Jews because unlike the Gentiles, they have a unique system of worship commanded by God which sets them apart in the world as God's firstborn among the nations.

Finally, yes indeed, the Lord Jesus is the Foundation of the Church. That Foundation is the whole New Testament which was a revelation hidden from the Old Testament Prophets although they all prophesied about it. The New Testament is the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the Foundation of the Church. Once that testimony was completed, everything we believers have done since is to build upon it.

Brokay2908:
But this doesn't mean we should exclude dreams and visions. God can use any method including dreams and visions

It does mean that.

You are right that God can. His Ability is never in question. But His Choice can be. Does He still use divinely sent dreams and visions or does He not? Scriptures say not. Doesn't mean He can't. Only means that He chooses not to.

Ihedinobi2, you have a shallow understanding of the Bible and a vague spiritual perception.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THESE ARE FACT.
1. No position or spiritual office has been retired.
2. Dreams and visions as well as those numerous ways I mentioned are still used as means of God communicating with us.

Our problem is dat we don't argue to know! We claim we know everything and we can never change our belief even though our stand is not right. If we can change that, then we can argue right and learn new things which will be useful to our lives!!!

FACT: GOD STILL SPEAK TO MEN TODAY

Pasqual:
Ihedinobi2, you have a shallow understanding of the Bible and a vague spiritual perception.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THESE ARE FACT.
1. No position or spiritual office has been retired.
2. Dreams and visions as well as those numerous ways I mentioned are still used as means of God communicating with us.

Our problem is dat we don't argue to know! We claim we know everything and we can never change our belief even though our stand is not right. If we can change that, then we can argue right and learn new things which will be useful to our lives!!!

FACT: GOD STILL SPEAK TO MEN TODAY

Perhaps I am. Perhaps I am not. That is for God and the man reading the Bible to judge.

As for what is fact, I always prefer to stand by the Bible. I don't mind disagreeing with what you prefer to call facts. If the Scriptures say that the offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired, then that is what I accept as fact, not what you insist to the contrary.

As for arguments, well, I could say the same to you. But it matters little. The Bible is the Judge here and I have shown you how I read it. If you disagree, then you disagree. I am quite convinced of the correctness of what I have said.

ihedinobi2:


I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. My reasons are in the post you quoted. I shared two Bible passages to explain.

You interpreted wrongly!! Where was it written there that God don't speak to men anymore?

After His Son died, how did we get Revelation since His Son has come and gone?
Apostle Paul told the Galatians that He wasn't taught the gospel by man but He received it directly from God. Remember He was not a direct disciple of Jesus! Hê did even see Jesus face to face!!

If those in the early church received messages from God through Angels, Visions, dreams, trance, direct word from The Holy Spirit and so on, and we can't receive that anymore then we should not be referred to as those who are part of the church. Understand spiritual things erh!

Jesus Christ said THE HOLY SPIRIT will explain to us things written about HIMSELF; hw will the Holy Spirit explain to us if we are not communicating with HIM.. You don't have any option other than to believe GOD still speaks to man

Pasqual:


You interpreted wrongly!! Where was it written there that God don't speak to men anymore?

Perhaps I did but you'll need the Bible to tell you that. So, how do you read it? Why do you believe that God still speaks to men in dreams and visions?

I shouldn't need to tell you that I never said that He doesn't talk to men today. I just said that He doesn't do so in dreams and visions right now.

Pasqual:
After His Son died, how did we get Revelation since His Son has come and gone?

The spiritual task of the apostles and prophets was to complete the Bible so that the Church will walk in the light of the new revelation. The Book of the Revelation was part of that task.

Pasqual:
Apostle Paul told the Galatians that He wasn't taught the gospel by man but He received it directly from God. Remember He was not a direct disciple of Jesus! Hê did even see Jesus face to face!!

Yes indeed. Paul was an apostle. And He did see the Lord Jesus face to face (Acts 9) when he was not only called to the Faith but also called to replace Judas as the 12th apostle of the Lamb.

As an apostle, he was one of the special messengers who were tasked to complete the Bible so that the Church can walk in its light through the ages to follow. So, of course he was going to be receiving revelation straight from the Lord rather than only from the Bible which was incomplete at the time.

Pasqual:
If those in the early church received messages from God through Angels, Visions, dreams, trance, direct word from The Holy Spirit and so on, and we can't receive that anymore then we should not be referred to as those who are part of the church. Understand spiritual things erh!

We are the Church for whom the New Testament was written. Since the Bible has been completed and the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ is complete in the Scriptures, there isn't much of a place left for other means of divine communications anymore. That is the meaning of Hebrews 1:1-2.

Pasqual:
Jesus Christ said THE HOLY SPIRIT will explain to us things written about HIMSELF; hw will the Holy Spirit explain to us if we are not communicating with HIM.. You don't have any option other than to believe GOD still speaks to man

I am not sure that He said exactly that. But if we expect Him to tell us in a dream or a vision the very things that we should be reading since they have been "WRITTEN about [the Lord]", then we have failed to understand what our Lord was saying, have we not? We have the Bible now and we have pastor-teachers, so we ought to read the Bible and listen to qualified pastor-teachers in order to be able to walk in the Spirit. The Bible does say that.

God still speak all you need is your bible and your quiet time to listen to his voice

Was Ananias also an Apostle? Why did God tell him (in a vision) to send to Peter? Acts 10.. These things are rights or special privileges of children of God.

And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh, (Apostles and Prophets or church leaders alone right?); and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit.. Joel 2vs28,29.. Read Acts 2vs17,18..

See!! These privileges are exclusively reserved for God's children and if you ain't 1, you might doubt. You musn't be a prophet or apostle before you get these visions..

Stephen was a deacon (just a worker in the church who served tables) but when he was being martyred; his eyes opened and he saw Jesus in Heaven standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7vs56)

What about another Deacon in the person of Philip? He was miraculously teleported from the Ethiopian Eunuch because he was a son.. Today we are still sons and we have these privileges.

If God can't give us these i.e. God limits His manifestations in our time then He will also limit His demands of Holiness and Righteousness because He is the one that makes it possible..

Our only problem is that we want to use our natural knowledge to understand Spiritual things. These things don't work like that.. Happy Sunday and have a refreshing time in the presence of the ALMIGHTY..

Good morning

Pasqual:
Was Ananias also an Apostle? Why did God tell him (in a vision) to send to Peter? Acts 10.. These things are rights or special privileges of children of God.

And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh, (Apostles and Prophets or church leaders alone right?); and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit.. Joel 2vs28,29.. Read Acts 2vs17,18..

See!! These privileges are exclusively reserved for God's children and if you ain't 1, you might doubt. You musn't be a prophet or apostle before you get these visions..

Stephen was a deacon (just a worker in the church who served tables) but when he was being martyred; his eyes opened and he saw Jesus in Heaven standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7vs56)

What about another Deacon in the person of Philip? He was miraculously teleported from the Ethiopian Eunuch because he was a son.. Today we are still sons and we have these privileges.

If God can't give us these i.e. God limits His manifestations in our time then He will also limit His demands of Holiness and Righteousness because He is the one that makes it possible..

Our only problem is that we want to use our natural knowledge to understand Spiritual things. These things don't work like that.. Happy Sunday and have a refreshing time in the presence of the ALMIGHTY..

Good morning

Good morning to you too.

The following is something I already said in response to a similar objection also stated on this thread:

ihedinobi2:


Yes, I do believe that the Lord still calls us into offices in the Church. But I do believe as well that some offices have been retired. The offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired because the foundation of the Church has been laid:

Ephesians 2:20
[20]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone

1 Corinthians 3:10
[10]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.


There are still works to do even as the context of the first verse and the second verse above teach. The foundation may have been laid but we still have to build on it, so, there are still evangelists and pastor-teachers. Then in addition to these, there are still myriad other gifts given to aid them in their work of bringing repentant unbelievers into the Church and feeding and raising them up in the Truth so that we each come to maturity and are able to help others as well.

You are right that the miracles and gifts were not limited to the apostles. Acts 6:8 is one of many examples of passages that indicate that many other believers were gifted in like manner. And the succeeding chapter to the one in 1 Corinthians that you quoted made it clear that other believers had an assortment of such sign gifts. The reason for this was that the New Testament was not complete at the time and was not widely distributed. Until it was, the Church needed verification of divine authority for everyone who claimed to speak in God's Name. That was especially what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2:4. But once the New Testament was complete and accessible, there was no further need for signs or even for prophets and apostles. See 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

About the passage in Joel, it has multiple fulfillment. It was first fulfilled at the end of the First Advent to celebrate the calling out of the Church and to make it clear that God accepted the Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first time, the Holy Spirit was given to live within sinful men because God no longer counted their sins against them as a result of the Perfect Atonement made by the Lord Jesus Christ. Today, the Spirit is still being poured out on all who believe. But the signs prophesied in Joel did not last in the case of the Church.

But in the Millennium, after the Victory of our Lord at Armageddon and the removal from the Earth of all His enemies, the Lord will renew the Earth and the Spirit will be poured out like He has never been in all of human history. Even unbelievers still in the Earth will have Him restraining some of their worst impulses in a manner very different than what He has been doing until now since the beginning of human history. This is to celebrate the joining of the Church to the Lord in Resurrection in perpetuity and the Restoration of the Nation of Israel to the Lord and to her place of supremacy over the nations of the Earth.

So, during the Millennium, what we experienced a taste of at Pentecost and shortly afterwards will be given again greatly expanded and will continue until the destruction of the physical universe and the beginning of the Eternal State.

As for using "natural knowledge to understand spiritual things", I'm not sure that I know what you mean. Are you merely objecting to my using reasoned arguments to try to understand what the Bible says by comparing what it says in one place to what it says to another? If you are, then you would be objecting to your own approach as well, would you not?

Pasqual:
If God can't give us these i.e. God limits His manifestations in our time then He will also limit His demands of Holiness and Righteousness because He is the one that makes it possible..

About the above, one thing has nothing to do with the other. God has never conditioned our obedience to Him on His Miracles. We are to obey Him because as God He commands it of us His Creatures and because as our Redeemer He commands it of us His Slaves and because as our Father He commands it of us His Children. As for helping us, that is why He gave us His Word and His Spirit. As we learn His Word, His Spirit within us uses It to change us as we believe It and try to obey It. That way, we grow better and better at obeying Him. This does not require the use of such miracles as you speak of. That was the point of the whole letter of 1 Corinthians.

idowuajenifuja:
God still speak all you need is your bible and your quiet time to listen to his voice

Very true. Of course, through our consciences, the Lord also guides us through myriad decisions that the Scriptures do not address directly. But this is why we need a strong familiarity with and understanding of the Bible which can only come from reading it consistently, thinking about what it says and listening to gifted and prepared teachers of the Bible: our consciences are educated by what we choose to listen to and believe. The better we understand the Bible through these means, the better we will hear the Spirit in our own hearts prompting us in all the right directions.

Hello house,
Couldn't come back online until now

@ihedinobi2

Peter said concerning the outpouring of he spirit at Pentecost that this is a fulfilment of Joel's prophecy concerning the last days. Are we no longer in the last days for the manifestations of the spirit which include dreams and visions to be ceased?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Is there any scriptural reference that states that the manifestations of the spirit will be seized at some point in time during the last days?

Please, read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 again with an open mind, and you will see that the writer is not making any reference to completion of Bible as the perfect which is coming but saying that Love/Charity is the perfect way.

By the way, the Bible as we have it was not compiled until around 400 AD and even up till now, some still don't have access to it. What will now be the suitable time for the Holy Spirit to stop His work

You said the offices of the Apostles and Prophets are no more functioning. Are dreams and visions, gifts of the spirit specifically for these offices for them to be seized along with the offices. Or what gifts are left for the evangelists, pastors, teachers to use. At least teachers will need revelation/understanding of the word of God, not just mere reading and carnal interpretation. The evangelist too will need some signs to witness to unbelievers that they may believe.

Are you sure these gifts are truly not needed anymore? That the Bible is the perfect which is to come? And there is no need for workings of the Holy Spirit which means He is not present or why would the spirit be present, if His workings are no longer needed.

ihedinobi2:


Sorry, didn't see this question before.

We are commanded to be perfect because we are supposed to prove our calling and our choice of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Master by striving to be like Him. But we will never be perfect with a body of sin. What counts though is that we demonstrate our desire for perfection by striving moment by moment, day by day to actually be perfect and confessing every sin and every failure so that we maintain fellowship with the Lord in fervent hope of a day when we will exchange this sinful body for a perfect, eternally sinless one.

There are forms of perfection which definitely do not apply to us while on earth, but to walk perfectly before God is possible.

God said to Abraham:

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


Christ said

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Even, concerning Job, this was recorded about him

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Lastly, the ultimate goal of the church is perfection

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

God won't be saying all these if it is unattainable. We can't strive for it if we don't first believe it is possible. Let's not assume it is impossible, but believe it is possible and then strive for it.

Brokay2908:
Hello house,
Couldn't come back online until now

@ihedinobi2

Peter said concerning the outpouring of he spirit at Pentecost that this is a fulfilment of Joel's prophecy concerning the last days. Are we no longer in the last days for the manifestations of the spirit which include dreams and visions to be ceased?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This is the full quote:

Joel 2:28-32 NIV
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

As you can see, in the context, there is much more involved than what happened at the Pentecost. This is one reason that in my most immediate response to Pasqual, I explained that this prophecy of Joel's, like many others in the Old Testament, had more than one fulfillment planned by the Lord.

Peter correctly taught that the outpouring of the Spirit at the Pentecost was a fulfillment of the Joel prophecy. But that does not mean that that was the only fulfillment planned. Just like John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the prophecy that Elijah would return to prepare Israel for the Messiah's First Advent and yet Elijah is still going to come back during the Tribulation for the preparation of the nation of Israel for the Messiah's Second Advent, in the same manner, the Spirit's outpouring at Pentecost was also just a foretaste of what will happen during the Millennium when the Lord Jesus will take total control of the world and rule over all the nations from Jerusalem.

Right now, we don't see "blood and fire and billows of smoke" or the sun going completely dark and the moon turning to blood. These are supposed to accompany the outpouring of the Spirit that results in prophecy and prophetic dreams.

In the days of the apostles, the signs were given with the outpouring of the Spirit for the reasons that I have already explained:

>> to ratify the authority of those who proclaimed the Gospel to unbelievers

>> to ratify the authority of those who taught the Church and revealed previously unknown truths about God's Plan, for example, the Book of Revelation and the other writings of the New Testament.

We were called to walk by faith and not by sight. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of the Lord. The signs and miracles were necessary until the Bible was completed and available to Christian assemblies. Once it was, there was no more place for proving through miraculous signs that any given person was truly speaking for God. You only had to read the Bible to know if they were or weren't.

Brokay2908:
Is there any scriptural reference that states that the manifestations of the spirit will be seized at some point in time during the last days?

There are many Scriptural truths that are not stated outright. In fact, there are very few that are stated outright. We have to study closely and follow the leading of a truly gifted and prepared Bible teacher in order to actually begin to see much that is actually in the Bible.

An easy example is the Trinity. Even today, there are Jews who take issue with Christianity because we believe that God is a Trinity. They think that "Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One God" excludes every possibility of a Trinity. But it is a rather obvious teaching from the Scriptures even though it is never obviously spelt out anywhere.

In the same vein, it is rarely a very useful question to ask that anybody show you where things are stated outright in the Bible. Many things are. But the vast majority of Christian beliefs and teachings are hidden from a cursory glance at the Scriptures. Finding them requires work, very hard work.

Brokay2908:
Please, read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 again with an open mind, and you will see that the writer is not making any reference to completion of Bible as the perfect which is coming but saying that Love/Charity is the perfect way.

I encourage you to do the same. Read it with an open mind as well and see if verses eight to ten could really have been saying anything other than the removal of prophecy and speaking in foreign languages miraculously because something perfect comes to replace them.

If you believe that this perfect thing that comes to replace them is Love/Charity, well, again, you would have to agree that they have been replaced.

Love does have a place in this discussion but not in the way you appear to understand it. The sign-gifts gripped the Corinthian believers' imagination with a fever. Just like a lot of believers today are doing, they were measuring themselves against each other in terms of their possession and exercise of sign-gifts like speaking in tongues. This, in fact, was why Paul had to defend his apostleship to them because they had become captivated by smooth-talking, trickish people who presented themselves as "super-apostles" who were superior even to the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So, Paul had to teach them that sign-gifts did not matter as much as they thought it did. What mattered was spiritual growth and production for the Lord. And that can only happen when a believer loves the Lord enough to want to listen to Him, believe Him and obey Him and then also do his best to help his fellow believers to learn to know the Lord, believe Him and obey Him too. This is the work of love in our lives. But you will notice that we can only know the Lord - and therefore believe and obey Him - by being diligent to grow in the Truth of His Word.

So, when Paul says that the sign-gifts will pass away when the perfect comes, he could only be talking - in that context, that is - about the completed Word of Truth through which our love for the Lord and His Church can be demonstrated.

But as I said, that was a Scriptural principle that quite obviously applies to more than the completed canon of the Scriptures.

Brokay2908:
By the way, the Bible as we have it was not compiled until around 400 AD and even up till now, some still don't have access to it. What will now be the suitable time for the Holy Spirit to stop His work

That is actually false. The Bible was completed and known in its full canon by the churches before the last apostle died. There was no confusion about what the canon was by the end of the first century.

What the Roman Catholic Church did was of little moment.

It is true that not everyone has a Bible. But today, the miracle is that there is not a heart that thirsts for the Truth that the Lord does not satisfy. He does not need to use sign-gifts to get the Truth to people when He can use willing believers who want to take the Truth to everyone who is willing to have it to do so. The complete Bible exists. Willing gifted and prepared Bible teachers and evangelists exist as well. These are God's Tools today in addition to mature believers who possess myriad gifts that aid the teachers and evangelists to do their work superbly.

Brokay2908:
You said the offices of the Apostles and Prophets are no more functioning. Are dreams and visions, gifts of the spirit specifically for these offices for them to be seized along with the offices. Or what gifts are left for the evangelists, pastors, teachers to use. At least teachers will need revelation/understanding of the word of God, not just mere reading and carnal interpretation. The evangelist too will need some signs to witness to unbelievers that they may believe.

As I said before, it was not only apostles and prophets who experienced the miraculous. Philip - as Pasqual here pointed out - was an evangelist. Stephen was a deacon (although he was a Bible teacher too). Cornelius was still outside the Church when an angel visited him. So, it isn't because apostles and prophets were removed from the Church that those sign-gifts stopped functioning. The sign-gifts were removed together with the apostles and prophets for the same reason - the Bible is now complete and accessible to anyone who truly hungers for the Truth.

The Bible teacher too learns from other Bible teachers until he comes to spiritual maturity and has learned how to handle the Word of Truth correctly so that he can find truths in the Scriptures that other believers entrusted to him can benefit from. There is no place anymore for sign-gifts in that process. It is partly a test of how much we want the Truth that we have to work hard now to learn it without the benefit of divine dreams and visions.

Brokay2908:
Are you sure these gifts are truly not needed anymore? That the Bible is the perfect which is to come? And there is no need for workings of the Holy Spirit which means He is not present or why would the spirit be present, if His workings are no longer needed.

Per your first question, I am. Per your second, as I said before, the Bible was the immediate issue that Paul was referring to but it was a spiritual principle and applies to more than the perfection of the Canon.

Per your third, that is your own argument. I do not believe that the cessation of sign-gifts and the offices of the apostle and prophet means that the Holy Spirit is no longer present or that " His workings" are no longer needed. It is still His Work to give the gift of teaching and evangelism and a vast number of other unique gifts that the Church needs to grow itself to maturity. It is still His Work to help each believer learn, remember and apply the truths of the Bible. That He does not use visions and divine dreams anymore does not mean anything like what you have decided to conclude on your own. That is not my argument and even so, it is a false argument. The sign-gifts are not the limits of the Lord's miraculous ability.

Brokay2908:


There are forms of perfection which definitely do not apply to us while on earth, but to walk perfectly before God is possible.

God said to Abraham:

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

But did Abraham succeed at obeying that command? See Genesis 20 for one possible illustration of his own very human imperfection.

Brokay2908:
Christ said

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the Spirit of Christ said through James:

James 3:2
[2]For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well...

Which is why He also says through John

1 John 1:8-10
[8]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
[9]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Brokay2908:
Even, concerning Job, this was recorded about him

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

And the Lord said this to Job too:

Job 38:1-2
[1]Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
[2]"Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?

Brokay2908:
Lastly, the ultimate goal of the church is perfection

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Perfection here means maturity. It is not the same as sinlessness. Even a believer as mature as Paul was stumbled every now and then. Peter too was a very mature believer and was with Paul one of the greatest apostles but he too stumbled every now and then.

We ought to strive for maturity by all means. But sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve while we still live in a body of sin.

Brokay2908:
God won't be saying all these if it is unattainable. We can't strive for it if we don't first believe it is possible. Let's not assume it is impossible, but believe it is possible and then strive for it.

As I began to say above, sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve in this body of sin. We will continue to stumble until we put off this flesh and put on the new body from above. This does not mean that we ought not to resist sin. We must. The more we love the Lord the less we will want to sin against Him. This is true and worthy of all belief. But we cannot reach sinlessness in this body. We must receive a new body to be completely free of sin.

Insisting on believing that we can be completely free of sin in this body will only lead to self-righteousness and hypocrisy worthy of the Pharisees. We will be tempted to start redefining sin to suit ourselves. But if we accept that we live in a body of sin from which we hunger to be delivered, then we will also maintain a running battle for sanctification and continue to maintain a humble hope of Resurrection that glorifies the Lord we love.

My question was not about whether there is more than one fulfilment or not, neither is it about whether blood and fire accompanied it or not, but that if Peter rightly make reference to that statement, what will disqualify our own time now as part of the last days that is supposed to witness the manifestation of the spirit.

Talking of ratifying authority. Do those that proclaim the gospel now have no authority to be ratified? Didn't Jesus give them the authority? Jesus said the signs will follow those that believe, not just the Apostles alone, or is the great commission limited to them alone?

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

"We walk by faith not by sight..."Are the manifestations of the spirit not also meant to produce faith, especially for the unbelievers?

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Are the workings of the spirit not a product of faith? Is it not by faith that the gifts of the spirit are operated?

On 1 Corinthians 13:
Yes you yourself can see the obvious. You can see it all over the chapter even right from the last verse of chapter 12 up to the very conclusion in the last verse of chapter 13. But you show me where in that chapte, the completion of canon scriptures is referred to as that complete thing. And if it is not in that chapter, show me where it is elsewhere in the Bible.

You couldn't even provide references to support your claim that workings of the spirit will be seized in between the establishment of the church and tribulation. You are deliberately putting in what the Bible is not saying and overriding the obvious truth with your assumptions; interpreting the Bible just to support your unfounded doctrine.

I think I don't need to go further anymore. I'm done with the discussion. The truth is there for all to see, as many as desired to see and the evidence too abounds.

ihedinobi2:

This is the full quote:

Joel 2:28-32 NIV
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

As you can see, in the context, there is much more involved than what happened at the Pentecost. This is one reason that in my most immediate response to Pasqual, I explained that this prophecy of Joel's, like many others in the Old Testament, had more than one fulfillment planned by the Lord.

Peter correctly taught that the outpouring of the Spirit at the Pentecost was a fulfillment of the Joel prophecy. But that does not mean that that was the only fulfillment planned. Just like John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the prophecy that Elijah would return to prepare Israel for the Messiah's First Advent and yet Elijah is still going to come back during the Tribulation for the preparation of the nation of Israel for the Messiah's Second Advent, in the same manner, the Spirit's outpouring at Pentecost was also just a foretaste of what will happen during the Millennium when the Lord Jesus will take total control of the world and rule over all the nations from Jerusalem.

Right now, we don't see "blood and fire and billows of smoke" or the sun going completely dark and the moon turning to blood. These are supposed to accompany the outpouring of the Spirit that results in prophecy and prophetic dreams.

In the days of the apostles, the signs were given with the outpouring of the Spirit for the reasons that I have already explained:

>> to ratify the authority of those who proclaimed the Gospel to unbelievers

>> to ratify the authority of those who taught the Church and revealed previously unknown truths about God's Plan, for example, the Book of Revelation and the other writings of the New Testament.

We were called to walk by faith and not by sight. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of the Lord. The signs and miracles were necessary until the Bible was completed and available to Christian assemblies. Once it was, there was no more place for proving through miraculous signs that any given person was truly speaking for God. You only had to read the Bible to know if they were or weren't.




There are many Scriptural truths that are not stated outright. In fact, there are very few that are stated outright. We have to study closely and follow the leading of a truly gifted and prepared Bible teacher in order to actually begin to see much that is actually in the Bible.

An easy example is the Trinity. Even today, there are Jews who take issue with Christianity because we believe that God is a Trinity. They think that "Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One God" excludes every possibility of a Trinity. But it is a rather obvious teaching from the Scriptures even though it is never obviously spelt out anywhere.

In the same vein, it is rarely a very useful question to ask that anybody show you where things are stated outright in the Bible. Many things are. But the vast majority of Christian beliefs and teachings are hidden from a cursory glance at the Scriptures. Finding them requires work, very hard work.




I encourage you to do the same. Read it with an open mind as well and see if verses eight to ten could really have been saying anything other than the removal of prophecy and speaking in foreign languages miraculously because something perfect comes to replace them.

If you believe that this perfect thing that comes to replace them is Love/Charity, well, again, you would have to agree that they have been replaced.

Love does have a place in this discussion but not in the way you appear to understand it. The sign-gifts gripped the Corinthian believers' imagination with a fever. Just like a lot of believers today are doing, they were measuring themselves against each other in terms of their possession and exercise of sign-gifts like speaking in tongues. This, in fact, was why Paul had to defend his apostleship to them because they had become captivated by smooth-talking, trickish people who presented themselves as "super-apostles" who were superior even to the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So, Paul had to teach them that sign-gifts did not matter as much as they thought it did. What mattered was spiritual growth and production for the Lord. And that can only happen when a believer loves the Lord enough to want to listen to Him, believe Him and obey Him and then also do his best to help his fellow believers to learn to know the Lord, believe Him and obey Him too. This is the work of love in our lives. But you will notice that we can only know the Lord - and therefore believe and obey Him - by being diligent to grow in the Truth of His Word.

So, when Paul says that the sign-gifts will pass away when the perfect comes, he could only be talking - in that context, that is - about the completed Word of Truth through which our love for the Lord and His Church can be demonstrated.

But as I said, that was a Scriptural principle that quite obviously applies to more than the completed canon of the Scriptures.




That is actually false. The Bible was completed and known in its full canon by the churches before the last apostle died. There was no confusion about what the canon was by the end of the first century.

What the Roman Catholic Church did was of little moment.

It is true that not everyone has a Bible. But today, the miracle is that there is not a heart that thirsts for the Truth that the Lord does not satisfy. He does not need to use sign-gifts to get the Truth to people when He can use willing believers who want to take the Truth to everyone who is willing to have it to do so. The complete Bible exists. Willing gifted and prepared Bible teachers and evangelists exist as well. These are God's Tools today in addition to mature believers who possess myriad gifts that aid the teachers and evangelists to do their work superbly.




As I said before, it was not only apostles and prophets who experienced the miraculous. Philip - as Pasqual here pointed out - was an evangelist. Stephen was a deacon (although he was a Bible teacher too). Cornelius was still outside the Church when an angel visited him. So, it isn't because apostles and prophets were removed from the Church that those sign-gifts stopped functioning. The sign-gifts were removed together with the apostles and prophets for the same reason - the Bible is now complete and accessible to anyone who truly hungers for the Truth.

The Bible teacher too learns from other Bible teachers until he comes to spiritual maturity and has learned how to handle the Word of Truth correctly so that he can find truths in the Scriptures that other believers entrusted to him can benefit from. There is no place anymore for sign-gifts in that process. It is partly a test of how much we want the Truth that we have to work hard now to learn it without the benefit of divine dreams and visions.




Per your first question, I am. Per your second, as I said before, the Bible was the immediate issue that Paul was referring to but it was a spiritual principle and applies to more than the perfection of the Canon.

Per your third, that is your own argument. I do not believe that the cessation of sign-gifts and the offices of the apostle and prophet means that the Holy Spirit is no longer present or that " His workings" are no longer needed. It is still His Work to give the gift of teaching and evangelism and a vast number of other unique gifts that the Church needs to grow itself to maturity. It is still His Work to help each believer learn, remember and apply the truths of the Bible. That He does not use visions and divine dreams anymore does not mean anything like what you have decided to conclude on your own. That is not my argument and even so, it is a false argument. The sign-gifts are not the limits of the Lord's miraculous ability.

To all these I will only say that we may try as we may to rationalize and evaluate from the human perspective, what is possible or not but that will not take us anywhere. Remove the power and grace of God from the equation, and Christianity becomes as dead as any other religion. But with God, all things are possible. Done with the conversation. Have a nice time.

ihedinobi2:

But did Abraham succeed at obeying that command? See Genesis 20 for one possible example of his own very human failures.



And the Spirit of Christ said through James:

James 3:2
[2]For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well...

Which is why He also says through John

1 John 1:8-10
[8]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
[9]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.



And the Lord said this to Job too:

Job 38:1-2
[1]Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
[2]"Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?




Perfection here means maturity. It is not the same as sinlessness. Even a believer as mature as Paul was stumbled every now and then. Peter too was a very mature believer and was with Paul one of the greatest apostles but he too stumbled every now and then.

We ought to strive for maturity by all means. But sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve while we still live in a body of sin.



As I began to say above, sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve in this body of sin. We will continue to stumble until we put off this flesh and put on the new body from above. This does not mean that we ought not to resist sin. We must. The more we love the Lord the less we will want to sin against Him. This is true and worthy of all belief. But we cannot reach sinlessness in this body. We must receive a new body to be completely free of sin.

Insisting on believing that we can be completely free of sin in this body will only lead to self-righteousness and hypocrisy worthy of the Pharisees. We will be tempted to start redefining sin to suit ourselves. But if we accept that we live in a body of sin from which we hunger to be delivered, then we will also maintain a running battle for sanctification and continue to maintain a humble hope of Resurrection that glorifies the Lord we love.

ihedinobi2:
Hello lightwhite. I left a message for you on another thread, the one you most recently commented on but perhaps you'll find a message here more easily. Please email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com. I failed to receive your email sent through Nairaland.

Cheers.

Thanks sir, I've sent you a message.