MuttleyLaff:
Yep, it was different. The difference is that Satan was in heaven and Adam was on earth
That is not true. Eating of the fruit is what brought sin into Adam's world, the world system

Different my ass. Please, when Satan was cast out for claiming equality with Yahweh, where did it go? The moon?!

Or when Satan said, "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14%3A12-15&version=NIV]I will! I will! I will![/url] and it was said of it [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28%3A13-19&version=NKJV]"till iniquity was found in thee"[/url], sin just started floating around until Adam, who was created on the earth, what, caught it, created it, or ate it?!?

This was you:

MuttleyLaff:
Sin was, before the existence of Adam. Adam is the product of the saying: "necessity is the mother of invention"

MuttleyLaff:
Sin entered the world, entered the system because of what Adam did.

It is what you're trying to square with your, "Adam's world, the world system" and in the process you just muttley yourself!

You may want to see Adam's world as the entire world unless you want to limit God's creation to your own understanding.

MuttleyLaff:
Oh you're done, going off on a rant and rave, right?

You know buda throw her toys out her pram and breaks eggs when she pisses, muttley. It's a buda thing.

MuttleyLaff:
God does not tempt. You might have to correct your question and/or rephrase it

I guess its a matter of perspective. I'm not obedient like you. If a god tells me to tend all the things in a garden "but this single tree its fruit do not eat", that god will have tempted me. My question stands as stated!

MuttleyLaff:

There are rhetorical questions budaatum, besides, you seem to always harp on about this being naked malarkey and not understanding that he had the clothe of righteousness on before but ruined and lost it after eating the fruit. Check this out, I went to work, without my y-fronts on, I felt naked.

Muttley, "aja ti o san nu ki gbo fere ode". Emi buda wi, "ti aja mi ba so nu, ma fun fere mi si ni" because, I paid money for the bitch! And my money is in its belly!

If you went to work without your righteousness is it your god that took them off you? Unprofitable gods are demons. A god that makes clothe of righteousness so easily ruined by fruit juice is a lousy god and should leave your bits alone!

budaatum:

Different my ass. Please, when Satan was cast out for claiming equality with Yahweh, where did it go? The moon?!

Or when Satan said, "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14%3A12-15&version=NIV]I will! I will! I will![/url] and it was said of it [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28%3A13-19&version=NKJV]"till iniquity was found in thee"[/url], sin just started floating around until Adam, who was created on the earth, what, caught it, created it, or ate it?!?

This was you:


It is what you're trying to square with your, "Adam's world, the world system" and in the process you just muttley yourself!

You may want to see Adam's world as the entire world unless you want to limit God's creation to your own understanding.


You know buda throw her toys out her pram and breaks eggs when she pisses, muttley. It's a buda thing.


I guess its a matter of perspective. I'm not obedient like you. If a god tells me to tend all the things in a garden "but this single tree its fruit do not eat", that god will have tempted me. My question stands as stated!


Muttley, "aja ti o san nu ki gbo fere ode". Emi buda wi, "ti aja mi ba so nu, ma fun fere mi si ni" because, I paid money for the bitch! And my money is in its belly!

If you went to work without your righteousness is it your god that took them off you? Unprofitable gods are demons. A god that makes clothe of righteousness so easily ruined by fruit juice is a lousy god and should leave your bits alone!

Ever thought of doing stand up? LMFAO!

LordReed:


LoL so with no way to confirm if what they say is true we should just accept their word for it? LMFAO! No wonder all these pastors are driving Rolls Royce upanddan. LMFAO!

You dey make me laugh. I wasn't referring to Pastors or Alfas but to those whom God sent to us with guidance i.e Muhammad SAW, Jesus, Abraham, et al.

aadoiza:

You dey make me laugh. I wasn't referring to Pastors or Alfas but to those whom God sent to us with guidance i.e Muhammad SAW, Jesus, Abraham, et al.

And who tells you of these people?

LordReed:


And who tells you of these people?

The books of God, of course.

aadoiza:

The books of God, of course.

Who wrote the books?

LordReed:


Who wrote the books?

The some of the books were revealed to God's messengers. Others were handed down.

aadoiza:

The some of the books were revealed to God's messengers. Others were handed down.

LoL! Ok

LordReed:


Ever thought of doing stand up? LMFAO!

Yeah. And I believe they would deserve it too.

LordReed:


LoL! Ok

Lol!

Ihedinobi3:

Why would it imply such a thing?



What? I am afraid I don't follow. What exactly are you saying here?



I cannot see how this in any way derives from my argument. I don't see anything about God's Plan that involves robots. Quite the opposite. I also don't see anything at all in His Plan that suggests that Adam and Eve were immoral or inclined to sin in any way. Quite the opposite in fact.

Ok.

TheArranger:
Just to clarify, I am not debating free will in general, as that is a completely different topic.

God's plan, put simply, is that we would be tested on Earth, and those of us who were good would go to heaven. I have always been told that this includes us having free will. However, God is said to be omnipotent. If God can see the future, than it is predetermined, and therefore, we can't have free will. If we don't have free will, God is knowingly sending people towards damnation, is he not?

In my opinion God's omnipotence contradicts the requirement for free will in God's plan.

Cc. Ranchhoddas, budaatum, OtemAtum, LordReed, jesusjnr, Michellekabod1, luvmijeje, finalboss, TATIME, MuttleyLaff, JMAN05, HellVictorinho, HardMirror, Akin1212, XxSabrinaxX, vaxx, ihedinobi3, Dantedasz, Rebekkah

1. Gods purpose is that we fill the earth as perfect humans and become caretakers as it were. Gen 1:27-28. His original purpose is for humans to stay here FOREVER. Psalm 37:9, 29.

2. Just like some may have said, there is a difference between having the ABILITY to foresee the future, and predestining individual creatures on earth. Had God pre-knew what Adam and Eve would do before creating them, then He would be responsible for what there action brought to the human family. It is only a wicked person who would see that his product is sure to fail, and he goes on bringing the product to life. Especially, if that person has the capacity of bringing about a product that can't fail.

God was creating free moral agents, He has no need to start foreseeing there future choice. Why will He do such a thing? Why create free moral agents if you are afraid of what there choice will be? Why not rather create those there actions has been written to obey you? So God made Adam and Eve as free moral agents without preknowing what there future choice would be.

He made them, gave them a choice to prove whether they would obey Him as there ruler, and they made there choice to be rather independent of God. That's their choice. Gods words at Gen 6:5,6, shows he would not have knowingly set a world of doom. And still regret. The problem we see would have been His will.

3. Belief in predestination is accusing God of cruelty. It is another way of saying that all badness we have ever witnessed was put in motion by God.

JMAN05:


1. Gods purpose is that we fill the earth as perfect humans and become caretakers as it were. Gen 1:27-28. His original purpose is for humans to stay here FOREVER. Psalm 37:9, 29.

2. Just like some may have said, there is a difference between having the ABILITY to foresee the future, and predestining individual creatures on earth. Had God pre-knew what Adam and Eve would do before creating them, then He would be responsible for what there action brought to the human family. It is only a wicked person who would see that his product is sure to fail, and he goes on bringing the product to life. Especially, if that person has the capacity of bringing about a product that can't fail.

Those who have said there's a difference between ability to see the future and pre-destining the future are fools who don't think at all before they post. There is not one single difference.

Had God pre-knew? Are you implying that God didn't pre-know what Adam and Eve would do before he created them? If yes, then that's one of our positions too if the legend of Adam and Eve is true. It's either this God didn't know or he knew and allowed it. Both positions still faults the concept of a God.

JMAN05:


God was creating free moral agents, He has no need to start foreseeing there future choice. Why will He do such a thing? Why create free moral agents if you are afraid of what there choice will be? Why not rather create those there actions has been written to obey you? So God made Adam and Eve as free moral agents without preknowing what there future choice would be.

He made them, gave them a choice to prove whether they would obey Him as there ruler, and they made there choice to be rather independent of God. That's their choice. Gods words at Gen 6:5,6, shows he would not have knowingly set a world of doom. And still regret. The problem we see would have been His will.

Exactly, God didn't need to foresee what actions his free moral agents would take, their future choice and the actions they would partake in. So he didn't foresee what Adam and Eve would do, hence he didn't know their future, hence he is not omniscient. Isn't it clear to you what we are saying here?

I don't need to continue on the other things you said, I have proved my points.

JMAN05:


3. Belief in predestination is accusing God of cruelty. It is another way of saying that all badness we have ever witnessed was put in motion by God.

Are you saying God doesn't know our destinies? We have heard that no one knows tomorrow except God. Are you saying that's false now? Are you saying that even God does not know tomorrow? Lol, this is new.
Then, why call him God?

Disclaimer : my arguments are hypothetical positions, assuming God exists.

Akin1212:


Those who have said there's a difference between ability to see the future and pre-destining the future are fools who don't think at all before they post. There is not one single difference.

Had God pre-knew? Are you implying that God didn't pre-know what Adam and Eve would do before he created them? If yes, then that's one of our positions too if the legend of Adam and Eve is true. It's either this God didn't know or he knew and allowed it. Both positions still faults the concept of a God.

Well, if you do understand what "ability" is, you will note that someone can have a certain ability, but might not use it ALWAYS. Evidence shows that God do not always use this ability. For eg, assuming you have a visit from your friends, you have the ability to see all they wore, but the truth is that you mght not give attention to all they are wearing. at times, it is only when someone tells you, "do you see that belt your friend had on", you might say, "well, didnt see it or i didnt give attention to what belt he is wearing, ok, let me go and check".

So, that someone has a certain ability, does not mean the person will always use it.

Yes, God evidently did not use that ability after creating Adam and Eve nor before. He was creating free moral agents. No need to peer into what choice they will make. Adam and Eve wear perfect, so they have greater possibility of choosing to do right than to do wrong.

- Does it go against the concept of a God? That question i think will elicit different answers depending on anybody's perception of what a God should be. I dont see it as going against the concept of a God. I only see it as evidence of a creator who is loving. Had he made me in a way that my default decision will always be to obey and follow him. He would have overridden my intelligence and free will. of course, there wouldn't be atheists, nor sinners. I see it as loving for each of us to decide his or her own fate.

Exactly, God didn't need to foresee what actions his free moral agents would take, their future choice and the actions they would partake in. So he didn't foresee what Adam and Eve would do, hence he didn't know their future, hence he is not omniscient. Isn't it clear to you what we are saying here?

I don't need to continue on the other things you said, I have proved my points.

Just to clear things. I am not in the opposing or proposing side on whatever you guys have been discussing. I just replied to the op. My comment should be viewed as distinct from from all others.

Omniscience is either Total or Inherent. In other words, we can say that God is inherently omniscient. He has the ABILITY to foreknow. The scriptures will keep against it if we say that God is Totally omniscient.

Are you saying God doesn't know our destinies? We have heard that no one knows tomorrow except God. Are you saying that's false now? Are you saying that even God does not know tomorrow? Lol, this is new.
Then, why call him God?

Disclaimer : my arguments are hypothetical positions, assuming God exists.

What am saying is that God has the ABILITY to know tomorrow. If he says He knows tomorrow, then it means He has used His ability to foreknow that tomorrow, not that by default, He knows tomorrow.

Predestination is lies against God. You cannot predestine someone and still hold him responsible for his actions. Yes, when I learned that truth, it was new, but I came to see that it is consistent with overall analyses of what we read in the scriptures about God.

JMAN05:


Well, if you do understand what "ability" is, you will note that someone can have a certain ability, but might not use it ALWAYS. Evidence shows that God do not always use this ability. For eg, assuming you have a visit from your friends, you have the ability to see all they wore, but the truth is that you mght not give attention to all they are wearing. at times, it is only when someone tells you, "do you see that belt your friend had on", you might say, "well, didnt see it or i didnt give attention to what belt he is wearing, ok, let me go and check".

So, that someone has a certain ability, does not mean the person will always use it.

Yes, God evidently did not use that ability after creating Adam and Eve nor before. He was creating free moral agents. No need to peer into what choice they will make. Adam and Eve were perfect, so they have greater possibility of choosing to do right than to do wrong.

- Does it go against the concept of a God? That question i think will elicit different answers depending on anybody's perception of what a God should be. I dont see it as going against the concept of a God. I only see it as evidence of a creator who is loving. Had he made me in a way that my default decision will always be to obey and follow him. He would have overridden my intelligence and free will. of course, there wouldn't be atheists, nor sinners. I see it as loving for each of us to decide his or her own fate.

Lots of you theists really fail to see this flaw and it surprises me always. A God who has ability to do something and does not do it to avoid mistakes is tending towards imperfections. And that's why this flaw will continue to linger on your God. A perfect God will not create something or take an action and later regret it. Never! It boils down to perfection. No one is perfect, nobody is. Not even your imaginary God can be.

We are talking about the concept of a God, it is very wrong of you to have used an analogy of the ability of humans. We know humans are not perfect and we dont use our abilities always. But a God? Hell no!

A God before creation cannot ignore using his ability to peep into the future of his creations. A God would already know, he doesn't need to look, he would know inherently that this would happen and that would happen even without looking. It's very ridiculous how you people betray intelligence to defend this God.

If God will need to look if his creations will err in the future as against just knowing, then why call him God? Why not just call him human because that's what a human will do.
If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would have obeyed and not disobeyed. Adam and Eve didn't even know what was right or wrong. They would need to eat the fruit before knowing that. Perfect Adam and Eve, would have just sticked to instructions. Disobeying the instructions given to them was a sign of imperfection. So God not using his ability according to your claims was a mistake on his part, because it changed his plans. That's why this thread was created.

JMAN05:


Just to clear things. I am not in the opposing or proposing side on whatever you guys have been discussing. I just replied to the op. My comment should be viewed as distinct from from all others.

Noted!

JMAN05:


Omniscience is either Total or Inherent. In other words, we can say that God is inherently omniscient. He has the ABILITY to foreknow. The scriptures will keep against it if we say that God is Totally omniscient.

Omniscient is very Total. Very very total. If God is inherently omniscient, then he doesn't even need to look to know. The scriptures are lies. Don't bank on them.

JMAN05:


What am saying is that God has the ABILITY to know tomorrow. If he says He knows tomorrow, then it means He has used His ability to foreknow that tomorrow, not that by default, He knows tomorrow.

Predestination is lies against God. You cannot predestine someone and still hold him responsible for his actions. Yes, when I learned that truth, it was new, but I came to see that it is consistent with overall analyses of what we read in the scriptures about God.

Well, that is a limitation that God does not know tomorrow by default. Then he does not have total knowledge of tomorrow.

If God has to decide to use his ability, or as a result of not using his ability he does not know some things, then why call him God? According to you, if God has not used his ability for a particular purpose, then he can be naive on the thing. For example, if God has not looked into my tomorrow, then he does not know my tomorrow. Then why is he called God? Because of his ability? Lmao.

I also have the ability to know economics but I dont know it because I have not read it. Am I also God?

If I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, I can confidently tell you, you don't have freewill!

tintingz:
If I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, I can confidently tell you, you don't have freewill!

True. Another problem is if there was such a thing as truly free will it would be next to impossible to provide any meaningful prophecy. Checkmate religionists!

LordReed:


True. Another problem is if there was such a thing as truly free will it would be next to impossible to provide any meaningful prophecy. Checkmate religionists!

Freewill is an absurd concept.
Genetics summarizes Man's fate.
He is bound to lead a life that constantly prepares him for his death which occurs like the decay of mere substances.
This involves all activities in his body,by his body and upon his body.
Geography confirms Man's punishment.
He resides in a prison called Earth which supports complex life and simple death.
Once again, Freewill is nothing but pure nonsense.

LordReed:


True. Another problem is if there was such a thing as truly free will it would be next to impossible to provide any meaningful prophecy. Checkmate religionists!

Yes. Destiny and Freewill are two opposite thing. They can't work together.

HellVictorinho:

Freewill is an absurd concept.
Genetics summarizes Man's fate.
He is bound to lead a life that constantly prepares him for his death which occurs like the decay of mere substances.
This involves all activities in his body,by his body and upon his body.
Geography confirms Man's punishment.
He resides in a prison called Earth which supports complex life and simple death.
Once again, Freewill is nothing but pure nonsense.

All these things are just human ideas.

I think determinism and indeterminism both ideas kinda make some sense tho.

tintingz:
All these things are just human ideas.

I think determinism and indeterminism both ideas kinda make some sense tho.

You are ageing-fact.
And this can be deduced from the post.

tintingz:
If I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, I can confidently tell you, you don't have freewill!

You are getting it twisted tintinz because it isn't if I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, then you definitely don't have freewill, but it is, I know about your every actions, choices you made exercising your freewill, and this is from Me being omniscient, Me knowing the end from the beginning. Me confident to allow you make your choices, your action that are detrimental to me, yourself and possibly others through you using your freewill because I am still in control of the whole situation, there is nothing happening that is not what I am working on to ultimately get resolved and once for all fixed.

I know about every choice and actions of my computer beforehand. Now the difference between you and the computer, is that you have freewill, but the computer doesnt. The computer is a robot, you are not because of your freewill

MuttleyLaff:
You are getting it twisted tintinz because it isn't if I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, then you definitely don't have freewill, but it is, I know about your every actions, choices you made exercising your freewill, and this is from Me being omniscient, Me knowing the end from the beginning. Me confident to allow you make your choices, your action that are detrimental to me, yourself and possibly others through you using your freewill because I am still in control of the whole situation, there is nothing happening that is not what I am working on to ultimately get resolved and once for all fixed.

If I can tell all your next moves, your choices, won't you feel you're being controlled? Won't you feel I'm kind of a god?

Freewill means to act without constraint necessities or fate, if you can follow the fate I presented to you then you don't have freewill, you're just following what your destiny has programmed for you.

I know about every choice and actions of my computer beforehand. Now the difference between you and the computer, is that you have freewill, but the computer doesnt. The computer is a robot, you are not because of your freewill

is this not supporting my argument?

tintingz:
If I can tell your every actions, choices beforehand, I can confidently tell you, you don't have freewill!

Friend, how does me knowing you will type this, translate to me controlling you to type it?

tintingz:
If I can tell all your next moves, your choices, won't you feel you're being controlled? Won't you feel I'm kind of a god?

Freewill means to act without constraint necessities or fate, if you can follow the fate I presented to you then you don't have freewill, you're just following what your destiny has programmed for you.

No destiny has been programmed anywhere for any one. What exists, is a programme to responds to whatever choices there are available for you to take, pick or make through you exercising freewill. Your destiny, is determined by the choices you made or choices others have made that have a ripple effect on you or your life.

No one has had a gun put to their head by God to do anything, say anything or write anything.

We are already gods, each one of us humans turned into gods, right back from Eden. You know how and in what context, we are gods, don't you tintingz?

tintingz:
is this not supporting my argument?

Not in the least bit is it supporting your argument and an argument it really is, this your viewpoint because I have never entertained the thought that because He beforehand knows my every moves, actions, thought and/deed He controls me, rather I have huge respect to Him for having huge balls of steel, almost literally speaking there, to still go ahead and let me exist, knowing fully well the antics I'll be up to, knowing fully well the extent of how much of a jerk or bitch human beings will go to.

bloodofthelamb:


Friend, how does me knowing you will type this, translate to me controlling you to type it?

Then you shouldn't be proud of your knowledge.

HellVictorinho:

Then you shouldn't be proud of your knowledge.

What's not to be proud of being omniscient?
What is your gripe with being omniscient?

bloodofthelamb:


Friend, how does me knowing you will type this, translate to me controlling you to type it?

Ever heard of predetermination?

MuttleyLaff:
No destiny has been programmed anywhere for any one. What exists, is a programme to responds to whatever choices there are available for you to take, pick or make through you exercising freewill. Your destiny, is determined by the choices you made or choices others have made that have a ripple effect on you or your life.

No one has had a gun put to their head by God to do anything, say anything or write anything.

We are already gods, each one of us humans turned into gods, right back from Eden. You know how and in what context, we are gods, don't you tintingz?

Not in the least bit is it supporting your argument and an argument it really is, this your viewpoint because I have never entertained the thought that because He beforehand knows my every moves, actions, thought and/deed He controls me, rather I have huge respect to Him for having huge balls of steel, almost literally speaking there, to still go ahead and let me exist, knowing fully well the antics I'll be up to, knowing fully well the extent of how much of a jerk or bitch human beings will go to.

Only rappers can "choose not to choose."
I have something like that in one of my written rap songs though I have not been able to get my songs out there for people to choose.
Ultimately, you are also bound to choose.
If you don't do anything, it means you have chosen to remain inactive.
Freewill is against LOGIC as a concept.

HellVictorinho:
Only rappers can "choose not to choose."
I have something like that in one of my written rap songs though I have not been able to get my songs out there for people to choose.
Ultimately, you are also bound to choose.
If you don't do anything, it means you have chosen to remain inactive.
Freewill is against LOGIC as a concept.

Freewill has its time and place
Freewill essentially is carte blanche. It is the power to legally do whatever you wish and thats without flouting the laws of the land, is your fundamental right. You are not refrained from carrying out or doing what you've set your mind to. Your thoughts, actions, deeds and words are not dictated to you

Ultimately, you are also bound to choose you say. Bound to choose what? There are exceptions to that. Do you choose your family? Did you choose your birthdate?

MuttleyLaff:
Freewill has its time and place
Frewill essentially is carte blanche. It is the power to legally do whatever you wish and thats without flouting the laws of the land, is your fundamental right. You are not refrained from carrying out or doing what you've set your mind to. Your thoughts, actions, deeds and words are not dictated to you

Ultimately, you are also bound to choose you say. Bound to choose what? There exceptions to that. Do you choose your family? Did you choose your birthdate?

You are bound to choose as a fully developed human specie!!!!!
How can someone that is not even formed in his or her mother's womb choose?
Apply LOGIC ,dude.
I know there are human rights with limitations to the expression of these rights-old news.

HellVictorinho:
You are bound to choose as a fully developed human specie!!!!!
How can someone that is not even formed in his or her mother's womb choose?
Apply LOGIC, dude.
I know there are human rights with limitations to the expression of these rights-old news.

Do you choose your children
Its interesting how applying false logic fails. Applying false logic humbles and wokes