IAmSabrina:

Exactly.

I do not "believe that there is an indestructible immortal rainbow coloured elephant eternally hibernating in the centre of planet Neptune". What's the point? What are you exacting with him for?

Martinez39:
Why don't you believe it?

Because personally, I don't do "believe". But if I did, why would I believe the nonsense you just make up in your head, 39! Is it a third party description?

Evidence so I don't have to believe please. Buda would rather know!

IAmSabrina:

Apparently

A person who has no belief in deities is an atheist.

Is that correct? Or does it have to include 'existence'?

budaatum:

I do not "believe that there is an indestructible immortal rainbow coloured elephant eternally hibernating in the centre of planet Neptune". What's the point? What are you exacting with him for?

You lack belief in an indestructible immortal rainbow coloured elephant eternally hibernating in the centre of planet Neptune

I lack belief in a personal diety watching over mankind, punishing and rewarding them for their deeds

Hence, I'm exacting with you actually, not him....

budaatum:

A person who has no belief in deities is an atheist.

Is that correct? Or does it have to include 'existence'?

I think it has to include 'existence'

budaatum:

Because personally, I don't do "believe". But if I did, why would I believe the nonsense you just make up in your head, 39! Is it a third party description?

Evidence so I don't have to believe please. Buda would rather know!

SMH. Gotcha!

Atheists lack belief in god because, personally, they don't do "believe". But if they did why would they believe the nonsense called god and religion which people made up in their head and spread to others? Is it a third party description?

Evidence so atheists don't have to believe please. Atheists would rather know.

As long as there is no evidence or any sound logical basis for god and religion, you lack belief in those things. . When atheists say "god doesn't exist," they say it in much the way they would say "werewolves, leprechauns and unicorns don't exist." You, budaatum, lack belief in the existence of unicorns.
BY THE WAY, WHY DO THINK IT IS NONSENSE, CAN YOU DISPROVE THAT THE ELEPHANT I DESCRIBED IS NOT IN THE CENTRE OF NEPTUNE?

Cc. IAmSabrina

IAmSabrina:

I think it has to include 'existence'

I think so too. Didn't sound right without it. Like deities are there but atheist refuse to acknowledge their existence. Ridiculous!

A person who has no belief in the existence of deities is an atheist.

Why do atheist define themselves by what is missing in them about something they do not believe exists?

seyi371:
why don't you take one prayer from the Quran and play with, since you are so sensible.
Is Christianity the only religion in the whole earth ?
You shouldn't because of some persons start insulting the whole of Christianity.
Why don't you create a thread and start dissing Muslims ?
How many times do you see Bill Gates dissing other people's belief ?

Is insulting Christianity the only way to be atheist?

@ iamsabrina, you should learn to respect other people's belief, whatever they believe in, is non of your business,
it is their life.

Gone through the post the umpteenth time and yet to discover where Christianity or prayer was insulted,when you find one please do alert me...
It could be my eyes are failing me...

Hahn, lordreed, hardmirror,martinez39,jesusjnr, CAPSLOCKED,happypagan,jesusjnr

budaatum:

I think so too. Didn't sound right without it. Like deities are there but atheist refuse to acknowledge their existence. Ridiculous!

A person who has no belief in the existence of deities is an atheist.

Why do atheist define themselves by what is missing in them about something they do not believe exists?

Define "existence" please

IAmSabrina:

You lack belief in an indestructible immortal rainbow coloured elephant eternally hibernating in the centre of planet Neptune

I lack belief in a personal diety watching over mankind, punishing and rewarding them for their deeds

Hence, I'm exacting with you actually, not him....

I too lack belief in a personal diety watching over mankind, punishing and rewarding them for their deeds.

Am I missing something here why are both of you making things up just so you can claim you don't believe it then define yourselves by what you've made up but don't believe? I don't get that!

IAmSabrina:

Define "existence" please

There. Occupying time or space. In a nutshell.

seyi371:
why don't you take one prayer from the Quran and play with, since you are so sensible.
Is Christianity the only religion in the whole earth ?
You shouldn't because of some persons start insulting the whole of Christianity.
Why don't you create a thread and start dissing Muslims ?
How many times do you see Bill Gates dissing other people's belief ?

Is insulting Christianity the only way to be atheist?

@ iamsabrina, you should learn to respect other people's belief, whatever they believe in, is non of your business,
it is their life.

You have really fallen of the bandwagon of sanity. People can criticise any religion they like. What Bill Gates does with his life has no bearing on IAmSabrina's freedom of speech.

She is under no obligation to respect your beliefs and she has the right to criticise any belief. If you feel she is not criticising Islam enough, why don't you take up the task?

budaatum:

I too lack belief in a personal diety watching over mankind, punishing and rewarding them for their deeds.

Am I missing something here why are both of you making things up just so you can claim you don't believe it then define yourselves but what you've made up but don't believe? I don't get that!

Making up what exactly? Clear my doubts, i could be missing something too...

There. Occupying time or space in a nutshell

Existence is the ontological property of being, with reference to the ability of an entity to, directly or indirectly, interact with the physical or, especially in idealistic worldviews, mental reality. Wikipedia

I lack belief in the existence of gods

budaatum:

I too lack belief in a personal diety watching over mankind, punishing and rewarding them for their deeds .

Am I missing something here why are both of you making things up just so you can claim you don't believe it then define yourselves but what you've made up but don't believe? I don't get that!

Why don't you believe in this deity?

I am trying to establish an analogy to explain what it means to lack belief in a concept/idea. Beside, how do you know I made it up? Can you prove the elephant I described isn't at the centre of Neptune? If no, are you inconclusive of it's existence and location? or you lack belief in it because it's supposed existence has to basis in reality?

Please answer all questions so we can make progress.

Martinez39:
SMH. Gotcha!

Atheists lack belief in god because, personally, they don't do "believe". But if they did why would they believe the nonsense called god and religion which people made up in their head and spread to others? Is it a third party description?

First, I'm not asking you to believe anything. In fact, the two beliefs here are ones you made up in your own head. I do not believe any of them!

Second, and please take note of this, 39, buda does "not believe in nonsense called god and religion which people made up in their head and spread to others". Like you, 39, I got my own head I can make things up in, and know I made it up!

Martinez39:
Evidence so atheists don't have to believe please. Atheists would rather know.

Actually, atheists have a disbelieve in deities because something that is lacking in them - Sabrina and I cleared that up, though she didn't expect me to whack her with this I bet. Get on page!

You cannot know, 39. Sorry, but its the truth. You cannot know because you lie about wanting to know. I mean, listen to yourself: You do not "believe the nonsense called god and religion which people made up in their head and spread to others". But question. I thought atheists wanted to know!

Martinez39:
As long as there is no evidence or any sound logical basis for god and religion, you lack belief in those things.

Interesting! Things I don't find "evidence or any sound logical basis for" , I treat like I treated your elephant!

Martinez39:
When atheists say "god doesn't exist," they say it in much the way they would say "werewolves, leprechauns and unicorns don't exist." You, budaatum, lack belief in the existence of unicorns.


Cc. IAmSabrina

Like you disbelieve feminist muslims exist right? You cover your eyes and deny it does?

IAmSabrina:

Making up what exactly? Clear my doubts, i could be missing something too...


Existence is the ontological property of being, with reference to the ability of an entity to, directly or indirectly, interact with the physical or, especially in idealistic worldviews, mental reality. Wikipedia

I lack belief in the existence of gods

Thats ok. I get you. When I was an atheist though, I never lacked belief in the existence of gods. I just knew they didn't exist in my own mind. They very definitely did exist in the minds of those in whom they existed however. Amazing what one can cook up in ones own mind. I do resent 39 cooking up of stuff in his own head, claiming he does not believe it then making out I do! You trying to spread your crap to my head, 39?

Can things exist in my mind alone and nowhere else and still exist? Or do things not exist in my mind?

budaatum:

First, I'm not asking you to believe anything. In fact, the two beliefs here are ones you made up in your own head. I do not believe any of them!

I never said you were. How do you know I made the elephant up? Can you prove I made it up? Can you prove that the elephant I described doesn't exist in the centre of planet Neptune? Even though you can't disprove the existence of the elephant, you still don't believe in it because, to you, there is no evidence to support it's existence. Therefore you lack belief in it due to lack of evidence.

Perhaps you are not sure if the elephant exists or not because you can't prove or disprove it's existence? *yimu*

Second, and please take note of this, 39, buda does "not believe in nonsense called god and religion which people made up in their head and spread to others". Like you, 39, I got my own head I can make things up in, and know I made it up!

Hmmmmm. I don't get.

Actually, atheists have a disbelieve in deities because something that is lacking in them - Sabrina and I cleared that up, though she didn't expect me to whack her with this I bet. Get on page!

Nah! Atheist have a disbelieve in god because the existence of god has no evidences or sound basis in reality. You don't believe in unicorns for the same reason. However, if evidence for unicorns emerges (eg. seeing one), you will acknowledge the existence of unicorns. Same with god and deities for atheists.

You cannot know, 39. Sorry, but its the truth. You cannot know because you lie about wanting to know.

What can I not know? What can I not know because I lie about wanting to know?

I mean, listen to yourself: You do not believe the nonsense you just make up in your head, 39

How do you know I made it up in my head? What if the elephant exists at the said location? Can you disprove that?

As long as there is no evidence or any sound logical basis for god and religion, you lack belief in those things. . When atheists say "god doesn't exist," they say it in much the way they would say "werewolves, leprechauns and unicorns don't exist." You, budaatum, lack belief in the existence of unicorns.
BY THE WAY, WHY DO THINK IT IS NONSENSE, CAN YOU DISPROVE THAT THE ELEPHANT I DESCRIBED IS NOT IN THE CENTRE OF NEPTUNE?

Cc. IAmSabrina

You haven't answered a single question I have asked so far. Check my previous post to you and answer all my questions so we can make progress.

Martinez39:
Why don't you believe in this deity?

I am trying to establish an analogy to explain what it means to lack belief in a concept/idea. Beside, how do you know I made it up? Can you prove the elephant I described isn't at the centre of Neptune? If no, are you inconclusive of it's existence and location? or you lack belief in it because it's supposed existence has to basis in reality?

Please answer all questions so we can make progress.

I don't believe period! When I don't know something I don't know. I do not have to make up reality inside my own head. I see no profit in so doing.

Why do I not "believe that there is an indestructible immortal rainbow coloured elephant eternally hibernating in the centre of planet Neptune", do I really need to answer that?!

I don't believe it because I don't do belief and its crap you made up in your head, 39!

Martinez39:
How do you know I made the elephant up? Can you prove I made it up? Can you prove that the elephant I described doesn't exist in the centre of planet Neptune? Even though you can't disprove the existence of the elephant, you still don't believe in it because, to you, there is no evidence to support it's existence. Therefore you lack belief in it due to lack of evidence.

I don't lack belief in it, 39, that would be giving it way more consideration than it deserves! And I don't have to prove to you whether it exists or not. The words I used to convey exactly how I felt about it, in English Language, was, "the crap you made up in your head"! And for proof, no airline flies elephants to Neptune! But don't believe me. Just third party google so you can know!

budaatum:

I don't believe period! When I don't know something I don't know. I do not have to make up reality inside my own head. I see no profit in so doing.

You didn't answer the question. WHY, I repeat WHY, don't you believe in that deity?

Why do I not "believe that there is an indestructible immortal rainbow coloured elephant eternally hibernating in the centre of planet Neptune", do I really need to answer that?!

Lol. Answer. If you think it's obvious that it doesn't exist, an atheist can say it's obvious that god doesn't exist. Besides you where having a problem with what it means to lack belief in something? People disbelieve because there is(are) no good reason(s) to believe.

I don't believe it because I don't do belief and its crap you made up in your head, 39!

How do you know I made it up? Can you prove the elephant I described isn't at the centre of Neptune? If no, are you inconclusive of it's existence and location? or you lack belief in it because it's supposed existence has to basis in reality?

budaatum:

I don't believe period! When I don't know something I don't know. I do not have to make up reality inside my own head. I see no profit in so doing.

You didn't answer the question. WHY, I repeat WHY, don't you believe in that deity?

Why do I not "believe that there is an indestructible immortal rainbow coloured elephant eternally hibernating in the centre of planet Neptune", do I really need to answer that?!

Lol. Answer. If you think it's obvious that it doesn't exist, an atheist can say it's obvious that god doesn't exist. Besides you where having a problem with what it means to lack belief in something? People disbelieve because there is(are) no good reason(s) to believe.

I don't believe it because I don't do belief and its crap you made up in your head, 39!

How do you know I made it up? Can you prove the elephant I described isn't at the centre of Neptune? If no, are you inconclusive of it's existence and location? or you lack belief in it because it's supposed existence has to basis in reality?

I am trying to use an analogy to explain what it means to lack belief in something.

budaatum:

Thats ok. I get you. When I was an atheist though, I never lacked belief in the existence of gods. I just knew they didn't exist in my own mind. They very definitely did exist in the minds of those in whom they existed however. Amazing what one can cook up in ones own mind. I do resent 39 cooking up of stuff in his own head, claiming he does not believe it then making out I do! You trying to spread your crap to my head, 39?

Can things exist in my mind alone and nowhere else and still exist? Or do things not exist in my mind?

I think i get what you're trying to say...

At this stage, we have to define reality: is it the egocentric fables and tales we cook up for ourselves OR the one we're slaves to?

@bold implies subjective reality => everyone has a different view of what reality is because we all have different points of view...
....one thing to note, however, is that objective reality can be verified through independent measurement. Subjective reality cannot.

Two people will perceive "blue" differently, but a photometer will ALWAYS recognize the light's actual wavelength correctly, no matter who measures it or when.

Cc. Martinez39

budaatum:

I don't lack belief in it, 39,

If you don't lack belief then you believe or know then.

that would be giving it way more consideration than it deserves!

There are many things we don't give consideration to and yet we lack belief in them. My elephant is an example. A golden coloured skin werewolf with silver coloured claws is another example.

And I don't have to prove to you whether it exists or not.

of course. I never said you were obliged to. Those questions were to advance our discussion and make it clear, to you, what it means to lack belief in something.

The words I used to convey exactly how I felt about it, in English Language, was, "the crap you made up in your head"!

I know and I am using the English language too. I was simply challenging your claim that I made up the elephant in my head. How do you know I made it up? Can you prove the elephant I described isn't at the centre of Neptune? If no, are you inconclusive of it's existence and location? or you lack belief in it because it's supposed existence has to basis in reality?

And for proof, no airline flies elephants to Neptune! But don't believe me. Just third party google so you can know!

Lol. Quite shallow. Where would we find an immortal rainbow coloured indestructible elephant on earth? Besides didn't you consider that the elephant could have originated from Neptune and got stuck at the centre thanks to a flying unreachable advanced alien? Try something better as proof.

I have to sleep. Good night everyone.

IAmSabrina:

I think i get what you're trying to say...

At this stage, we have to define reality: is it the egocentric fables and tales we cook up for ourselves OR the one we're slaves to?

@bold implies subjective reality => everyone has a different view of what reality is because we all have different points of view...
....one thing to note, however, is that objective reality can be verified through independent measurement. Subjective reality cannot.

Two people will perceive "blue" differently, but a photometer will ALWAYS recognize the light's actual wavelength correctly, no matter who measures it or when.

Cc. Martinez39

He is just complicating things. He told me he is using the English language yet he is confusing what objective and subjective realities mean. If something exists in one's head alone then it doesn't exist. Simple English.

IAmSabrina:

I think i get what you're trying to say...

At this stage, we have to define reality: is it the egocentric fables and tales we cook up for ourselves OR the one we're slaves to?

@bold implies subjective reality => everyone has a different view of what reality is because we all have different points of view...
....one thing to note, however, is that objective reality can be verified through independent measurement. Subjective reality cannot.

Two people will perceive "blue" differently, but a photometer will ALWAYS recognize the light's actual wavelength correctly, no matter who measures it or when.

Cc. Martinez39

I don't know many people who go about with a photometer, or even know how to use one, so I would think we do a lot more subjective reality despite all the objective reality surrounding us.

Now, imagine an atheist. Not one like 39 who makes elephants up in his head, but a real no evidence, no believe atheist. On what basis does that atheist argue that whatever reality I make up in my own head is not real in my head!? Then imagine the flip of that. Me arguing there isn't an elephant in 39's head. Should I not call me a fool?

budaatum:

I don't know many people who go about with a photometer, or even know how to use one, so I would think we do a lot more subjective reality despite all the objective reality surrounding us.

Now, imagine an atheist. Not one like 39 who makes elephants up in his head, but a real no evidence, no believe atheist. On what basis does that atheist argue that whatever reality I make up in my own head is not real in my head!? Then imagine the flip of that. Me arguing there isn't an elephant in 39's head. Should I not call me a fool?

I never said whatever is in your head isn't in your head. I never did, where did you get that from? You are fond of playing around with the English language and complicating arguments. I simply asked how you are sure that I made up the elephant. Also, can you prove that the elephant doesn't exist?

I no do again. Make I go sleep.

Martinez39:
He is just complicating things. He told me he is using the English language yet he is confusing what objective and subjective realities mean. If something exists in one's head alone then it doesn't exist. Simple English.

Have you read my thread on subjectivity and objectivity? If not, I strongly suggest you check out the objectively available evidence of my qualifications on the subjects, 39, instead of making up things in your head!

Please tell me if these my English words that I have joined together inside my own head are not at this very moment existing!

budaatum:

I don't know many people who go about with a photometer, or even know how to use one, so I would think we do a lot more subjective reality despite all the objective reality surrounding us.

Now, imagine an atheist. Not one like 39 who makes elephants up in his head, but a real no evidence, no believe atheist. On what basis does that atheist argue that whatever reality I make up in my own head is not real in my head!? Then imagine the flip of that. Me arguing there isn't an elephant in 39's head. Should I not call me a fool?

We live in an Objective Universe, built upon by scientific, observable principles;

We exist in a Subjective Reality, where our thoughts and feelings and memories can be manipulated by the ethereal as well as the concrete, but are also the primary lens through which we experience the world, and therefore one's experience is entirely relative to the individual.

Will you agree with me, Buda, that to distinguish fact from fiction, we eliminate human bias (subjective reality) and gain as much a solid grasp of objective reality as we can?

Martinez39:
I no do again. Make I go sleep.

[img]https://media./images/ba8e438a9b946f71a533e88f45055d80/tenor.gif[/img]

budaatum:

Have you read my thread on subjectivity and objectivity? If not, I strongly suggest you check out the objectively available evidence of my qualifications on the subjects, 39, instead of making up things in your head!

Awualam. How do you know I made it up in my head? You are yet to answer. Chisos o.

Please tell me if these my English words that I have joined together inside my own head are not at this very moment existing!

I am not questioning the existence of anything thing in your head. The existence of anything inside your head is not a subject of our discussion and has never been so why this statement? How did you arrive at the this point. Stop disorganising our argument.

I simply asked the following questions.

How do you know I made it up? Can you prove the elephant I described isn't at the centre of Neptune? If no, are you inconclusive of it's existence and location? or you lack belief in it because it's supposed existence has to basis in reality?

Oh my goodness.

IAmSabrina:

We live in an Objective Universe, built upon by scientific, observable principles;

And unobservable things we don't know are there or see yet. Not elephants on Neptune though!

IAmSabrina:
We exist in a Subjective Reality, where our thoughts and feelings and memories can be manipulated by the ethereal as well as the concrete, but are also the primary lens through which we experience the world, and therefore one's experience is entirely relative to the individual.

Ethereal means things that seem not to be of this world, so like what exactly? Venus? Elephants on Neptune? Deities somewhere waiting to save one?

I, a subject, exist in the objective reality which my subjective mind interprets and which I perceives subjectively. Its like I got bad eyesight and I'm looking through two wrong and bad lenses that make the objective reality appear the way it subjectively does to subjective me. It's why I'd need an objective photometer and know how to use it before it can be said that whatever reality I propose is objective. And even then, not until you've verified with your own objective photometer.

IAmSabrina:
Will you agree with me, Buda, that to distinguish fact from fiction, we eliminate human bias (subjective reality) and gain as much a solid grasp of objective reality as we can?

Let me rephrase that, you tell me what I think.

Can I distinguish the subjective elephants on Neptune from the herd of elephants in my mind?

I should think so, easily, in fact. To start with, I should not put nor allow others to put elephants in my Neptune! And I should be honest with myself. If I don't make up imaginary elephants and place them in my Neptune I'd most likely not be blinded by the herd running around in my mind and my subjective reality will not be distorted and would less likely distort the objective reality.

Yes, I do think one can "distinguish subjective reality from objective reality". It only requires honesty and eyes that see.

budaatum:

And unobservable things we don't know are there or see yet. Not elephants on Neptune though!

@bolded is an interesting statement. If certain things are unobservable and can't be known at this time, does it make sense to verify it to be true as a fact. If so, how do we arrive at that conclusion?

Ethereal means things that seem not to be of this world, so like what exactly? Venus? Elephants on Neptune? Deities somewhere waiting to save one?

I, a subject, exist in the objective reality which my subjective mind interprets and which I perceives subjectively. Its like I got bad eyesight and I'm looking through two wrong and bad lenses that make the objective reality appear the way it subjectively does to subjective me. It's why I'd need an objective photometer and know how to use it before it can be said that whatever reality I propose is objective. And even then, not until you've verified with your own objective photometer.

This leads us to the big question: How do we seperate objective reality from subjective experiences?

This is where we talk about patterns & consistency:
a) Ice is very chilled
b) Kittens are fuzzy
c) The sun rises in the east & sets in the west
d) Cars move faster than normal people

You may insist that these are still embedded in your head but ultimately, these incidents are recurring "subjective experiences". Thus, it makes sense to call them "objective".

Then again, I could just ask Martinez & Buda if they're seeing what i'm seeing to confirm objectivity. If Martinez & Buda are seeing what i'm seeing, then their "subjective experiences" matches mine which translates to all three of us subjectively experiencing the same objective thing

Let me rephrase that, you tell me what I think.

Can I distinguish the subjective elephants on Neptune from the herd of elephants in my mind?

I should think so, easily, in fact. To start with, I should not put nor allow others to put elephants in my Neptune! And I should be honest with myself. If I don't make up imaginary elephants and place them in my Neptune I'd most likely not be blinded by the herd running around in my mind and my subjective reality will not be distorted and would less likely distort the objective reality.

Yes, I do think one can "distinguish subjective reality from objective reality". It only requires honesty and eyes that see.

I very much agree with the last sentence.

Does the world even exist, Buda? I think it does. That should explain why people can see things and agree unanimously on it.

However, as an atheist, i'm of the opinion that people's conclusions are less reliable than their experiences. Thus their predictions are less reliable than their conclusions. It would be a huge blunder to accept Buda's experience alone as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.