₦airaland Forum

sino:
There isn't any 'Holy Ghost' to help understand the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) had taken care of that for us, Allah (SWT) Says in the Qur'n:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." (Qur'an 3:7 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

You would see for yourself when you do read the Qur'an, the clarity of the verses, and indeed there are verses that are allegorical and some that deals with the unseen, as Muslims, we believe everything as the true words of God, and what we do not understand from it buttresses the fact that our knowledge is indeed limited, and we can only know what is intended for us to know and understand.

The Prophet (SAW) was sent as a guide to bring us the message and also exemplify the this message. The revelation was best understood by the Prophet (SAW) and his immediate followers/students, who were much eager to learn by way of asking questions...So we do go back to the authentic narrations from the Prophet (SAW) and his companions to arrive at better understanding of the Qur'an. Of course, there are those who have dedicated their lives to the path of acquiring these knowledge of the religion, and thus we have scholars, who we can also seek understanding from.

Also, the Qur'an encourages us to reflect and reason while reading the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) wants us to employ critical thinking when we read the Qur'an, and not to be unmindful, for this would help us discover the wisdom and assist our understanding inherent it the verses, and build our confidence in the truth of the message.

Please take a look at the first verse usemane had quoted, he claims that it is unverified, but is the problem the verse or usermane?! I would only quote the remainder verses and you be the judge...

"And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit." (Qur'an 36:38-40 Picthall)

So as not to be confusing for other readers, let me quote another translation:

"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.

It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming." (Qur'an 36:38-40 Sahih International)

Salaam. Here are the problems;

1. We have not verified any 'resting place' for the sun.

Context is important. Note, 'resting place' here most likely has to do with diurnal cycle than end of the world.

036.037
A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness.

036.038
And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

036.039
And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.

036.040
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip/overtake the day. They float each in an orbit.

Also problematic is that these verses do not seem to correlate night and day with earth rotation. For instance, verse 37; "We strip it of the day, and lo they are in darkness." This sounds to you like earth surface rotating from sun light to result in night?

2. Also, using the verb "overtake" for 'night' in verse 40 is problematic since the night is not a physical object, but an occurrence.

3. Dhul Qarnayn traveled till when he reached rising (place) of the sun

The Qur'an narration of Dhul Qarnayn have puzzled many for long. Chapter 18v90 report that Dhul Qarnayn traveled till when he reached the rising (place) of the sun. We have not verified that anyone can travel till when they reach such a destination - rising (place) of the sun.

Over the years, Muslims & their scholars have offered varying interpretations of this verse.

For some, this verse mean Dhul Qarnayn traveled till he reached a place during sunrise. Such interpretation would've been more credible if the verse reads, "So, he followed a way till rising of the sun. He then found .......".

"Till rising of the sun" is different from "Till when he reached rising of the sun", the Qur'anic reading. The phrase, "when he reached", leave the apologists in a very precarious position.

Funny enough some Muslims read further; "he found it rising over a people for whom we have made no cover from her". They say this refer to the midnight sun. And derive a modern interpretation of the entire verse as Dhul Qarnayn travel to North Pole to find the midnight sun.

This of course is unconvincing, because there is no sunrise during midnight sun. The sun never leaves the horizon. Whereas, Dhul Qarnayn saw the sun rising in the verse.

This re-interpretation bias on the Muslim's part is clear when we return to the interpretation of the scholars of antiquity. Here is what Tafsir Al Jalalayn has on the issue. The commentary is underlined to distinguish from the verse itself;

Until, when he reached the rising of the sun, the place where it rises, he found it rising on a folk, namely Negroes, for whom we have not provided against it, that is the sun, any cover, in the way of clothing or roofing, as their land could not support any structures; [u]they had underground tunnels into which they would disappear at the rising of the sun and out of which they would emerge when the sun was at its highest point in the sky.

Ibn Kathir agrees as well. They both understood this verse to mean Dhul Qarnayn reached the specific place where the sun literally rises, ascends the horizon. As you can read, the people living at this place felt the heat as the sun rose in proximity than when the sun is at its zenith. https://quranx.com/Tafsirs/18.90

4. Summer heat & Winter cold are due to breathing of the hell fire.

"The (Hell) Fire complained to its Lord saying, 'O my Lord! My different parts eat up each other.' So, He allowed it to take two breaths, one in the winter and the other in summer, and this is the reason for the severe heat and the bitter cold you find.

Another unverified hadith. Seasons are caused by earth revolution and tilt around the sun.

usermane:
As far as Qur'an is concerned, it is a self explained book. Ideally, every man is his own interpreter of the Qur'an. No clergy.

I think the Qur'an advocates personal development through ones own effort because deciphering clues in the Qur'an is arduous work which many may not be in a position to do, as is shown by you on this thread.

budaatum:
I think the Qur'an advocates personal development through ones own effort because deciphering clues in the Qur'an is arduous work which many may not be in a position to do, as is shown by you on this thread.

If a consensus agreement can be achieved on the Quran interpretations by all Muslims in the world, that would be ideal but since it is not achieved and there are lots of diversity and conflicts in the Muslim world then the Quran should be left as it was written. When "run is run then run is run" no sugar-coating no making some allegory and metaphor out of it, no need of some scholars commentary or It originality would diminish which is the case today. If Allah had said Muslims can interpret the Quran as they want that would be another case.

It's either Muslims accept the Quran horrible texts, absurdity, cruelty as it was written or they abandon it completely or better still cherry pick the ones that suit them and agree the Quran is not perfect and move on( I think this is what usermane did).

There is no "consensus agreement [achieved] on the Quran interpretations by all Muslims in the world", and there never will be because everyone is not given to understand the same. Hence can your "run" be "walk fast" for some. Saudi, Iran and Iraq are examples of different Quran understandings, as are the Sunnis and Sufis.

The fact is, regardless of what Allah or anyone else says, Muslims will interpret the Quran as they understand it. That, after all, is what you and op are doing, and you still have not shown me a single Muslim who interprets it the way you do.

A third option would be to try to understand it of course, but that might be too much for some, and is further complicated by the various different translations.

tintingz:
If a consensus agreement can be archived on the Quran interpretations by all Muslims in the world, that would be ideal but since it is not archived and there are lots of diversity and conflicts in the Muslim world then the Quran should be left as it was written. When "run is run then run is run" no sugar-coating no making some allegory and metaphor out of it, no need of some scholars commentary or It originality would diminish which is the case today. If Allah had said Muslims can interpret the Quran as they want that would be another case.

It's either a Muslims accept the Quran horrible texts, absurdity, cruelty as it was written or they abandon it completely or better still cherry pick the ones that suit them and agree the Quran is not perfect and move on( I think this is what usermane did).

budaatum:
There is no "consensus agreement [achieved] on the Quran interpretations by all Muslims in the world", and there never will be because everyone is not given to understand the same. Hence can your "run" be "walk fast" for some. Saudi, Iran and Iraq are examples of different Quran understandings, as are the Sunnis and Sufis.

The fact is, regardless of what Allah or anyone else says, Muslims will interpret the Quran as they understand it. That, after all, is what you and op are doing, and you still have not shown me a single Muslim who interprets it the way you do.

A third option would be to try to understand it of course, but that might be too much for some.

During Muhammad era, the Quran was taken as it was written, today some Muslims are now ashamed of some Quran passage, the scientific errors and many more, they had to start interpreting the Quran to suit modern reasoning especially when they use Science to justify the Quran claims. When science discover something Muslims will quickly find a way to hijack it and twist it to fit in the Qur'an.

Countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE and co are using Sunni interpretations while countries like Iran are using Shia interpretations causing conflicts.

If the Quran say "run then it's run", we all know what "run" is.

I didn't interpret the Quran to any other thing than what the text said, it said "menstruation is harm and impure" then it's according Quran, no need to sugar-coat anything. I would like to see where I interpret it to another thing.

The original language in which the Quran was written still exist, the problem with the translations is what my premises is all about, but then translations is not actually the problem it's the interpretations.

tintingz:
During Muhammad era, the Quran was taken as it was written, today some Muslims are now ashamed of some Quran passage, the scientific errors and many more, they had to start interpreting the Quran to suit modern reasoning especially when they use Science to justify the Quran claims. When science discover something Muslims will quickly find a way to hijack it and twist it to fit in the Qur'an.

It's called evolution. Only the ignorant insist on sticking to 7^th 8^th century thought as you seem to think one should.

budaatum:
It's called evolution. Only the ignorant insist on sticking to 7^th 8^th century thought as you seem to think one should.

Then the Quran is not perfect. That's my point.

tintingz:
Then the Quran is not perfect. That's my point.

Seriously! What do you think I was saying when I educated you from the angel to the Prophet who didn't even know how to write? What do you think I meant when I was explaining to you that the angel told the Prophet to fob you off when it told him what to say to you when you ask about menstruation? Oh, I get it! "God don't like people doubting him and questioning his authorities. The God whose word you claim is the word of God, and now say is "not perfect"!

If the angel had told the Prophet, a trader in the desert, what we know about menstruation today would the Prophet have been able to write anything better than we read in the Quran?

budaatum:
Seriously! What do you think I was saying when I educated you from the angel to the Prophet who didn't even know how to write? What do you think I meant when I was explaining to you that the angel told the Prophet to fob you off when it told him what to say to you when you ask about menstruation? Oh, I get it! "God don't like people doubting him and questioning his authorities. The God whose word you claim is the word of God, and now say is "not perfect"!

If the angel had told the Prophet, a trader in the desert, what we know about menstruation today would the Prophet have been able to write anything better than we read in the Quran?

Wait let me get your point here.

Is it that God is perfect but the Quran is not or the Quran that's believed by Muslims to be the word of God is not word of God?

tintingz:
Wait let me get your point here.

Is it that God is perfect but the Quran is not or the Quran that's believed by Muslims to be the word of God is not word of God?

God is perfect. The Quran is the Word of God

budaatum:
God is perfect. The Quran is the Word of God

But Didn't you say Qur'an is not the Word of God, but the words recited to Muhammad by Jubril?

budaatum:
God is perfect. The Quran is the Word of God

You're confusing yourself.

tintingz:
You're confusing yourself.

No tingz. Be truthful and admit you are confused. When we were teaching you about paradoxes, you refused to learn. You might want to go and repeat the class.

usermane:
But Didn't you say Qur'an is not the Word of God, but the words recited to Muhammad by Jubril?

It's obviously just a book to many, you and tingz being clear examples, but to some, it is indeed perceived as God's Holy True Word.

The Quran has gone through so many hands before it got to you, and it is my own opinion that if satan can enter and dabaru God's Garden of Eden and go on to tempt Jesus Christ, it can most definitely easily enter a book and enter your brain and distort the Word of God. And even if the Quran hadn't been distorted, it might just be distorted in your mind so that you misunderstand. It is for this reason that one must be diligent and persevere in one's study and meditation, just as the Prophet had to do before eventually hearing Iqra.

It is that diligence and perseverance that makes one see the Words as God's. Without it, they are just words in one more book.

usermane:
Salaam. Here are the problems;

1. We have not verified any 'resting place' for the sun.

Context is important. Note, 'resting place' here most likely has to do with diurnal cycle than end of the world.

What are you verifying?! The important context is the verse quoted in red in my post, that the Sun and the Moon each float in their own orbits! The fact that the night and day are distinct as the verses indicated, doesn't mean the 'resting place' should be connected to the diurnal cycle! For starters, the Qur'an here is talking about the Sun and moon moving in their own orbits!

usermane:
Also problematic is that these verses do not seem to correlate night and day with earth rotation. For instance, verse 37; "We strip it of the day, and lo they are in darkness." This sounds to you like earth surface rotating from sun light to result in night?

2. Also, using the verb "overtake" for 'night' in verse 40 is problematic since the night is not a physical object, but an occurrence.

That is what I was saying up there, it is about the Sun and Moon's movements, and not that of the earth, and thus shouldn't be conflicted with the alternation of night and day!

If you have even just elementary knowledge about the language of the Qur'an, the Arabic language and its nuances as well as its grammatical and literary prowess, you wouldn't be asking your number 2 question or even the first! My advice, please check out the Bayyinah institute/TV on youtube, and perhaps learn a little bit about the language of the Qur'an!

sino:
What are you verifying?! The important context is the verse quoted in red in my post, that the Sun and the Moon each float in their own orbits! The fact that the night and day are distinct as the verses indicated, doesn't mean the 'resting place' should be connected to the diurnal cycle! For starters, the Qur'an here is talking about the Sun and moon moving in their own orbits!

OK. Here is Hadith teaching that this verse is connected to diurnal cycle;
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/59/10

I always thought we agreed that the best way to grasp a verse with multiple possible meanings is to consider the subject of the neighboring verses.

That is what I was saying up there, it is about the Sun and Moon's movements, and not that of the earth, and thus shouldn't be conflicted with the alternation of night and day!

How can you speak on how day transitions into night without reference to earth rotation?

What is being 'strip of the day', when the night comes?

If you have even just elementary knowledge about the language of the Qur'an, the Arabic language and its nuances as well as its grammatical and literary prowess, you wouldn't be asking your number 2 question or even the first! My advice, please check out the Bayyinah institute/TV on youtube, and perhaps learn a little bit about the language of the Qur'an!

Then what is the purpose of translation? It is the responsibility of the translators to translate to reflect the Arabic text. Even if I master Arabic, I'll basically be translating Qur'an for myself.

tintingz:
The original language in which the Quran was written still exist, the problem with the translations is what my premises is all about, but then translations is not actually the problem it's the interpretations.

You seriously need to go and educate yourself!

The Sana'a manuscript, is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. It was found, along with many other Quranic and non-Quranic fragments, in Yemen in 1972 during restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a. The manuscript is written on parchment, and comprises two layers of text (see palimpsest). The upper text conforms to the standard 'Uthmanic Quran, whereas the lower text contains many variants to the standard text. An edition of the lower text was published in 2012. A radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment containing the lower text to before 671 AD with a 99% accuracy.


When asked about the experience of revelation, Muhammad reported:

"Sometimes it is revealed like the ringing of a bell. This form of inspiration is the hardest of them all and then it passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."

budaatum:
You seriously need to go and educate yourself!

The Sana'a manuscript, is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. It was found, along with many other Quranic and non-Quranic fragments, in Yemen in 1972 during restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a. The manuscript is written on parchment, and comprises two layers of text (see palimpsest). The upper text conforms to the standard 'Uthmanic Quran, whereas the lower text contains many variants to the standard text. An edition of the lower text was published in 2012. A radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment containing the lower text to before 671 AD with a 99% accuracy.


When asked about the experience of revelation, Muhammad reported:

"Sometimes it is revealed like the ringing of a bell. This form of inspiration is the hardest of them all and then it passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."

What's your point here?

budaatum:
No tingz. Be truthful and admit you are confused. When we were teaching you about paradoxes, you refused to learn. You might want to go and repeat the class.

Can you tell us your point when you said the Quran was revealed by Angel Gabriel?

tintingz:
What's your point here?

My point is, read some more and learn. The original language the Quran was written in is different to the one spoken today!

tintingz:
Can you tell us your point when you said the Quran was revealed by Angel Gabriel?

My point is the Prophet got it from the Angel and not directly from God.

@budaatum, you're difficult to understand. You said earlier on the Qur'an is not the word of God. Then you said it is the word of God, now you say Muhammad heard it from Angel?

budaatum:
My point is the Prophet got it from the Angel and not directly from God.

What then is your argument exactly?

usermane:
@budaatum, you're difficult to understand. You said earlier on the Qur'an is not the word of God. Then you said it is the word of God, now you say Muhammad heard it from Angel?

He has problem following his premises.

He's just grasping at straws.

budaatum:
My point is, read some more and learn. The original language the Quran was written in is different to the one spoken today!

Assuming it was different from todays own, does it change my premise?

usermane:
OK. Here is Hadith teaching that this verse is connected to diurnal cycle;
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/59/10

I always thought we agreed that the best way to grasp a verse with multiple possible meanings is to consider the subject of the neighboring verses.

Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

But the above narration is still not talking about the earth's movement, rather it talks about that of the Sun. Also, it is established in the Qur'an that everything in the heavens and the earth prostrates, but we humans have no clue HOW this is being done, hence, it is a matter beyond the comprehension of man.

Now, the narration talks about how the Sun will not be able to 'prostrate' (I'm I wrong to imagine you understand this to mean sunset?), and it would seek permission to go on its course which would be denied, but will be instructed to return whence it has come and so will rise in the west, one needs to ask, is the Sun not coming from the east?! If the Qur'an/hadith while talking about the movement of the Sun, is referring to the diurnal cycle or talking about the alternation of night and day, shouldn't it have returned to the east?! And how does the Sun sets in the west, only for it to rise in the east?! Where is this 'resting place', and how does this Sun, rise from its resting place from another place entirely?! Of course, at the end of the narration, it clearly states what the verse in question is really referring to, that there is a decreed point in time and space where the Sun's movements will reach and everything will change!

This narration only buttress the fact that your understanding taken from the interpretation of the Qur'an is faulty and parochial, and that the movements of the Sun and the Moon is quite different from the alternations of night and day!

usermane:
How can you speak on how day transitions into night without reference to earth rotation?

What is being 'strip of the day', when the night comes?

Are you the author of the Qur'an?! Is the Qur'an a scientific book that want to teach you in details, geography and astronomy?! Even so, the fact that Allah (SWT) informed us that these celestial bodies do have their own orbits, should easily make you know that earth would definitely also have its own motion and its own orbit!

Let me help you with an appropriate verse:

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? (Sahih International Qur'an 39: 5)

I hope it is getting clearer?! Can you see the distinctions?! Night and day a la earth's rotation, and Sun and Moon, running specific term and being useful for earth and its inhabitants?!

usermane:
Then what is the purpose of translation? It is the responsibility of the translators to translate to reflect the Arabic text. Even if I master Arabic, I'll basically be translating Qur'an for myself.

Bro, it is beyond mastering the Arabic language, the translators would always try their best, but they are also limited by their own knowledge and understanding, not to mention the limitation associated in not making the whole thing too voluminous! Hence, the need for righteous Scholars and a sincere mind to learn and understand the Qur'an.