aadoiza:

Oh my word. Gravity!!! The imaginary force pulling you to the Earth"s surface , please don't even go there for that's one sick delusion I try to avoid.
Now I'm happy , as we're not so different after all. You believe in NASA's CGI, I believe in Allah's revelations; so that makes us both believers.

Flat earther conspiracy.

So NASA videos, images of earth are CGI? Wow!!

CGI and Photoshop must be very good in those days, I wonder where NASA got the advanced graphics in those days, maybe from Aliens.

Your fairytale book must have answers to all these.

The most important rule of ball-Earth theory: discard your senses of reason, touch, and seeing for speculations I.e. whatever that's reasonable, that you feel or see are actually not what they are, just believe what we tell you. For example: on the spinning ball-Earth the Moon allegedly moves from West to East but anyone with a quarter functional brain could see the Moon moves in the opposite direction. The Earth is motionless; no, it is spinning with a great speed but you can't feel the slightest air displacement as a result . We can't see any curvature: aah!! Of course you can't because it's spiritual . The Earth is, after all, small in circumference, so the physical spiritual curvature should not be that hidden

Who told you there is no curvature? You must be watching too much conspiracy theories.

Why does sunset looks like it is going down the ocean?

The earth rotation is something that has been observed, calculated and measured. Maybe I should ask how winds travel?

Again, tell me how days, night and seasons work in your world.

The thing is you need to use more of common sense than looking for what's not to see the world in actuality.

The Earth is definitely and certainly not a ball, it does appear to be a plane with different elevations though. I'm sure as eggs is eggs that the Earth is not moving and not a ball. Shikena

Can you state the shape of the earth?

tintingz:
Flat earther conspiracy.

So NASA videos, images of earth are CGI? Wow!!

CGI and Photoshop must be very good in those days, I wonder where NASA got the advanced graphics in those days, maybe from Aliens.

Your fairytale book must have answers to all these.

Who told you there is no curvature? You must be watching too much conspiracy theories.

Why does sunset looks like it is going down the ocean?

The earth rotation is something that has been observed, calculated and measured. Maybe I should ask how winds travel?

Again, tell me how days, night and seasons work in your world.

Can you state the shape of the earth?

This is taking a predictably typecasting turn.
Believing Osama was not responsible for 9/11 was also called a conspiracy theory by people like you who were been fed bullshit; I wonder what you would call the belief now that he's been cleared.
Let's end it once and for all. You will show me the Earth's curvature in real life, no CGI, no doctored videos, agreed?

aadoiza:

This is taking a predictably typecasting turn.
Believing Osama was not responsible for 9/11 was also called a conspiracy theory by people like you who were been fed bullshit; I wonder what you would call the belief now that he's been cleared.

If you don't have evidence to your claims then you're just a conspiracy theorist.

Let's end it once and for all. You will show me the Earth's curvature in real life, no CGI, no doctored videos, agreed?

Yes very simple. We can get a telescope and go to where there is ocean and where sun set.

I would like you hear your explanation why the sun goes down when setting and even ships seems to disappear from distance and when zoomed.

tintingz:
If you don't have evidence to your claims then you're just a conspiracy theorist.


Yes very simple. We can get a telescope and go to where there is ocean and where sun set.

I would like you hear your explanation why the sun goes down when setting and even ships seems to disappear from distance and when zoomed.

So if the mainstream evidence is a big fat lie you will still believe it. It clearly shows one thing: all of you claiming logic and reason are believers. They present you with false evidence and tell how to go about verifying it and and you call yourselves knowledgeable
On Osama, there were numerous proofs all around but all of you were blind with western propaganda just as you all are now on the real Earth .

Why do you need the sun to set before seeing an obvious curvature? And na you go buy the telescope not me

If we're doing this, we won't go where there is ocean, nah. We will do it from a high elevation, like a mountain, and establish mathematically the amount of curve we should see after a few miles in two opposite directions.

Oga Ade, Sun no dey go down and ship no dey disappear, those are fairy tales. With the help of the telescope, the ship that you think disappear and the Sun that goes down the alleged curvature will all be brought back into view.

aadoiza:

So if the mainstream evidence is a big fat lie you will still believe it. It clearly shows one thing: all of you claiming logic and reason are believers. They present you with false evidence and tell how to go about verifying it and and you call yourselves knowledgeable

The evidence about the earth is all agreed by the scientific consensus. There are evidences that can't be denied. If you are still doubting, visit NASA for evidence and not only NASA, there are other organizations too.

You're just believing in conspiracies and being delusional.

On Osama, there were numerous proofs all around but all of you were blind with western propaganda just as you all are now on the real Earth .

Osama the al-qaeda leader was responsible for 9/11 attack, I didn't deny this.

Why do you need the sun to set before seeing an obvious curvature? And na you go buy the telescope not me

Lol, the earth is too big to just see curvature from anywhere.

The sunset is an evidence of the earth curvature.

If the earth is flat we would be seeing the sun even at night.

We go rent telescope, shebi na you demand for evidence.

If we're doing this, we won't go where there is ocean, nah. We will do it from a high elevation, like a mountain, and establish mathematically the amount of curve we should see after a few miles in two opposite directions.

Yes we will go up to the mountain to see if we will see the sun in the night, if we will see Europe from Nigeria.

Wait, if the earth is flat, we should be seeing the other part of the planet earth.

Oga Ade, Sun no dey go down and ship no dey disappear, those are fairy tales. With the help of the telescope, the ship that you think disappear and the Sun that goes down the alleged curvature will all be brought back into view.

Go to YouTube and see ship disappearing or moving downwards even when zooming.

tintingz:
The evidence about the earth is all agreed by the scientific consensus. There are evidences that can't be denied. If you are still doubting, visit NASA for evidence and not only NASA, there are other organizations too.

You're just believing in conspiracies and being delusional.

Sponsor me na . There is nothing like conspiracy theories about the Earth's shape. They are only trying to denigrate those who see it for what it is.
Check these out:
If you say women football is boring you're called "SEXIST'
Point out some of the evils of the Jews; you are tagged "ANTI-SEMITIC".
Say I want to follow Rasool (SAW) to the letter, then you have become an "EXTREMIST".
Say homosexuality is filth, unnatural; you are called "HOMOPHOBIC"
Say evolution theory is nonsense; you're a "CREATIONIST"
Say the Earth can not be a ball, it's illogical; they say you're "FLAT EARTHER"
Say the US knows who was behind 9/11; you don turn "CONSPIRACY THEORIST". SMH
Oh Gravity is imaginary....to be cont'd
If you believe in all these misnomer as stated above, then you are a mindless, brainwashed conformist.

Osama the al-qaeda leader was responsible for 9/11 attack, I didn't deny this.

So you don't know; the guy has been cleared and his family to be awarded $18million

Lol, the earth is too big to just see curvature from anywhere.

If you know Maths you can determine the extent of the curvature after every few miles, very simple. And the Earth is not that big according to what NASA claims to be the circumference.

The sunset is an evidence of the earth curvature.

If the earth is flat we would be seeing the sun even at night.

We go rent telescope, shebi na you demand for evidence.

Yes we will go up to the mountain to see if we will see the sun in the night, if we will see Europe from Nigeria.

Wait, if the earth is flat, we should be seeing the other part of the planet earth.

Go to YouTube and see ship disappearing or moving downwards even when zooming.

Whatever.
I'm going to die knowing I did not live my life on a spinning ball lost in the middle of nowhere. Period

aadoiza:

Sponsor me na . There is nothing like conspiracy theories about the Earth's shape. They are only trying to denigrate those who see it for what it is.
Check these out:
If you say women football is boring you're called "SEXIST'
Point out some of the evils of the Jews; you are tagged "ANTI-SEMITIC".
Say I want to follow Rasool (SAW) to the letter, then you have become an "EXTREMIST".
Say homosexuality is filth, unnatural; you are called "HOMOPHOBIC"
Say evolution theory is nonsense; you're a "CREATIONIST"
Say the Earth can not be a ball, it's illogical; they say you're "FLAT EARTHER"
Say the US knows who was behind 9/11; you don turn "CONSPIRACY THEORIST". SMH
Oh Gravity is imaginary....to be cont'd
If you believe in all these misnomer as stated above, then you are a mindless, brainwashed conformist.

This is strawman.

You're arguing with fallacy.

Can you define conspiracy theory?

So you don't know; the guy has been cleared and his family to be awarded $18million

Who was cleared?

If you know Maths you can determine the extent of the curvature after every few miles, very simple. And the Earth is not that big according to what NASA claims to be the circumference.

Humans are bigger than the earth?

I was expecting you to provide evidence on what the shape of the earth is, why there is night, day and seasons, instead you're running in circular argument.

Sorry I cannot keep on with this back and forth arguments.

Whatever.
I'm going to die knowing I did not live my life on a spinning ball lost in the middle of nowhere. Period

So you don't care to know the fact?

What will you say to people that believe the earth is rest on the back of a turtle?

tintingz:
This is strawman.

You're arguing with fallacy.

Can you define conspiracy theory?

Who was cleared?



Humans are bigger than the earth?

I was expecting you to provide evidence on what the shape of the earth is, why there is night, day and seasons, instead you're running in circular argument.

Sorry I cannot keep on with this back and forth arguments.




So you don't care to know the fact?

What will you say to people that believe the earth is rest on the back of a turtle?

I don't know what conspiracy theory is.

Whatever anyone believes is not my concern. My concern is modern-day Muslims twisting Qur'anic texts to appeal to science. How many times I go say this? Attempts are being made to smuggle Dadwin's evolution drivel into the Qur'an, make I no talk my own

As far as the Earth's shape is concerned, nobody has the absolute facts. So you people should stop trying to shove ball-Earth down everyone's throat, rather present it as alternative view.

What always baffled me about the ball-earth was the elusive curvature, no matter how high you go above the sea level you will never see it. The Earth's surface always appears flat. But if anyone is ready to show me this curvature I haven't been able to see—probably because I have been blinded by conspiracy theories, as implied in your posts, I am ready to learn. In fact, i will wait till I have enough money just so I don't burden the individual. And this is I trying to learn, forget all the nonsense that might have been said . Yes I want to know the facts

As for those who believe the Earth rests on the back of a turtle, perhaps they mean in spiritual sense. I actually don't know what say about that. Provided they don't ridicule what I believe the Earth to be, I got no problem with their belief either. Our beliefs on the shape of the Earth changes nothing, as far as I'm concerned.

aadoiza:

I don't know what conspiracy theory is.

Whatever anyone believes is not my concern. My concern is modern-day Muslims twisting Qur'anic texts to appeal to science. How many times I go say this? Attempts are being made to smuggle Dadwin's evolution drivel into the Qur'an, make I no talk my own

As far as the Earth's shape is concerned, nobody has the absolute facts. So you people should stop trying to shove ball-Earth down everyone's throat, rather present it as alternative view.

What always baffled me about the ball-earth was the elusive curvature, no matter how high you go above the sea level you will never see it. The Earth's surface always appears flat. But if anyone is ready to show me this curvature I haven't been able to see—probably because I have been blinded by conspiracy theories, as implied in your posts, I am ready to learn. In fact, i will wait till I have enough money just so I don't burden the individual. And this is I trying to learn, forget all the nonsense that might have been said . Yes I want to know the facts

As for those who believe the Earth rests on the back of a turtle, perhaps they mean in spiritual sense. I actually don't know what say about that. Provided they don't ridicule what I believe the Earth to be, I got no problem with their belief either. Our beliefs on the shape of the Earth changes nothing, as far as I'm concerned.

Sigh.

sino:

You are welcome.

I believe "all running for a specific term" means what it means, after all, at a point everything created would perish, except the Creator! (Qur'an). Secondly, the Arabic used is plural, if it was just for the Sun and Moon, then the word would be in dual form (You see why I had advised you learn the language of the Qur'an?!)

Also, as I have pointed out earlier, it is not just until it is explicitly stated that you would come to such conclusions, that is why I alluded to using your thinking skills! When you read, "He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient" does it suggests that it is the movement of the Sun and the Moon doing this wrapping around?! Does the Moon bring about night?!

I didn't say "all running for a specific term" is limited to sun and moon. I said it is limited to sun, moon, night and day. You can't include earth, or you'll have to include heavens. And if you include the heavens then obviously "running for a specific term" is not referring to orbital motion.

But there is nothing in the Qur'an or authentic hadiths that indicates this! If there is none, then it remains your assumptions! I don't deal with such!

Well, I made this assumption apparently because I wanted you to see how a 7th century folk could understand this verse. Just put yourself in the shoes of the 7th century folks. "Resting place for the sun" could remind them of such pre-Islamic myths about the sun. We learn by association.

We all deal with assumptions when reading any document. You also have assumed so far. For instance, you assumed that if resting place is implying the place the sun goes at sunset, then resting place has to be a point that the sun will also rise from, rather than rise from the east or west. I believe this is why you disagree the sahih hadith by Abu Dharr supports my interpretation.

I also do not use unclassified hadiths to form major opinions about my faith! There are important reasons why there is an aspect of Islamic knowledge known as science of hadiths...

Fair enough. Please, note. This unclassified hadith was accepted by earlier Muslims. There is no such thing as classified or unclassified hadith, hadith is hadith, and whether a hadith is classified or authentic vary from Muslim to Muslim, scholar to scholar, era to era.

No! I said the message of the Qur'an is clear to every generation, the advancement in knowledge only helps buttress the understanding of this message, and this doesn't suggest that the message was never understood, but to buttress the message as the truth form Allah (SWT)! Those who were in the time of the Prophet (SAW) saw the Prophet and witness the truth of the message of the Prophet (SAW), they do not need the heliocentric model to believe this truth, neither do they need the the anatomic view of the embryo's developmental stages in the womb!

OK. If that's what you say, then Houston we still have a problem. If the message is clear to every generation, why do scholars differ on numerous verses? The verse we discuss alone, has two differing understanding among the scholars, why?

Also, I don't get how advancement of knowledge buttress the understanding of the message. It basically changes the understanding of the message. On reading the tafsir of earlier scholars on verses pertaining to astronomy, anatomy or embryology, I find that earlier Muslims understood the Qur'an quite differently from modern Muslims.

The question you need to ask yourself is, what is the message of the Qur'an?!

Qur'an is a clarification of everything important on; "Spirituality, Laws and Ethics, History, Afterlife and Natural sciences."

Whatever you wish to consider isn't the problem of the Qur'an, afterall, there are those who even take verses of the Qur'an out of context, erroneously (and sometimes on purpose) to justify their hate, terrorism, corruption, etc...The truth is always clear, and with a little bit of open-minded reasoning and reflection coupled with sincerity (or as Buda puts it, diligence and perseverance), you would always see the truth in the Qur'an, a clear book!

Difference of opinions amongst scholars, if not about the fundamentals of the religion, are entertained as part of their intellectual exercises, so, their mistakes are what they are, mistakes! They are humans and not free from making such as I might have made in my responses to you!

When you say a book is clear, everyone should be able to read it without even moderate differences in understanding. This is not the case with Qur'an, unfortunately. For instance, scholars disagree on essential issues;

Abrogated verses of the Qur'an
Permissibility for Offensive jihad
Fasting & Salat timing in the Arctic and Antarctic circles during the periods of midnight sun.
Permissibility of slavery etc.

I believe you understand this disagreements are not trivial.

Here are other areas the Qur'an is not clear;

What are the 7 heavens?
Who was Dhul Qarnayn and where are the walls he built to hold back Gog and Magog till the Armageddon?
Why does the Qur'an sometimes reads like the speech of other than God?

You can see there are issues with Qur'anic text. You can say the Qur'an is clear because it states it is clear, but it doesn't change reality.

usermane:


I didn't say "all running for a specific term" is limited to sun and moon. I said it is limited to sun, moon, night and day. You can't include earth, or you'll have to include heavens. And if you include the heavens then obviously "running for a specific term" is not referring to orbital motion.

Then what would it be referring to?!

usermane:

Well, I made this assumption apparently because I wanted you to see how a 7th century folk could understand this verse. Just put yourself in the shoes of the 7th century folks. "Resting place for the sun" could remind them of such pre-Islamic myths about the sun. We learn by association.

We all deal with assumptions when reading any document. You also have assumed so far. For instance, you assumed that if resting place is implying the place the sun goes at sunset, then resting place has to be a point that the sun will also rise from, rather than rise from the east or west. I believe this is why you disagree the sahih hadith by Abu Dharr supports my interpretation.

First of all, to give you an idea what companions of the Prophet (SAW) understanding looks like, you need to read how they answer questions posed to them by the Prophet(SAW). They would always revert back to the superiority of Allah's (SWT) knowledge and that of the Prophet (SAW). So when an aspect of knowledge isn't made plain to them, and they didn't ask, they would always subject their understanding to the fact that only Allah (SWT) knows best, after they might have exercised their "ijtihad" They are not arrogant lots who arrogate knowledge to themselves, and hence they seek accurate and authentic evidences to back up any opinion or claim!

I do not deal with assumptions on issues of my beliefs! I don't hold assumptions as facts, and would not base my interpretations on assumptions. You are the one that came up with the assumption of "verifying" the resting place for the Sun!

usermane:

Fair enough. Please, note. This unclassified hadith was accepted by earlier Muslims. There is no such thing as classified or unclassified hadith, hadith is hadith, and whether a hadith is classified or authentic vary from Muslim to Muslim, scholar to scholar, era to era.

Nah, the science of hadith had been traced to the earliest generation of companions after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), so i do not know what you are talking about.

usermane:

OK. If that's what you say, then Houston we still have a problem. If the message is clear to every generation, why do scholars differ on numerous verses? The verse we discuss alone, has two differing understanding among the scholars, why?

I have pointed that out already bro.

usermane:

Also, I don't get how advancement of knowledge buttress the understanding of the message. It basically changes the understanding of the message. On reading the tafsir of earlier scholars on verses pertaining to astronomy, anatomy or embryology, I find that earlier Muslims understood the Qur'an quite differently from modern Muslims.

Let's take the verses in question as an example, so some scholars held the opinion of geocentric model, while others held to the heliocentric model, but are these models the basis of faith in Islam?! The answer is NO! I can summarize what the verses in question states thus:

1. The Sun, Moon, Earth, Heavens, Night and Day are all signs by the Creator of the Universe for us to reflect, think, reason!
2. All are running for a specific time, as it has been decreed
3. The Sun and Moon have separate orbits they move within
4. The earth is being wrapped by night and day...

Due to advancement in knowledge, evidences suggests that the earth is spherical (...hence my 4 above suggests the earth's rotation) and the heliocentric model is more accurate. So tell me where the Qur'an is in error?!

usermane:

Qur'an is a clarification of everything important on; "Spirituality, Laws and Ethics, History, Afterlife and Natural sciences."

Well, aforementioned verses are clear, and what are important to Muslims are also clear! The Qur'an is a book of guidance, to guide the sincere heart to acknowledging the truth!

usermane:

When you say a book is clear, everyone should be able to read it without even moderate differences in understanding. This is not the case with Qur'an, unfortunately. For instance, scholars disagree on essential issues;

Abrogated verses of the Qur'an
Permissibility for Offensive jihad
Fasting & Salat timing in the Arctic and Antarctic circles during the periods of midnight sun.
Permissibility of slavery etc.

I believe you understand this disagreements are not trivial.

Here are other areas the Qur'an is not clear;

What are the 7 heavens?
Who was Dhul Qarnayn and where are the walls he built to hold back Gog and Magog till the Armageddon?
Why does the Qur'an sometimes reads like the speech of other than God?

You can see there are issues with Qur'anic text. You can say the Qur'an is clear because it states it is clear, but it doesn't change reality.

All these have been addressed within my responses to you, there are no issues with the text of the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) had made it clear, perhaps I should remind you:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." (Sahih international Q 3: 7)

When there are deviations in the heart, there happens to be little one can do to help, such persons keep seeking that which would justify their deviations, no matter the explanations provided!

Salaam

sino:


Then what would it be referring to?!

Let's go by your interpretation that running for an appointed term mean running on a path or an orbit. Let's also forget about the heavens. And let's turn to 'night and day' which are subjects of the verb "running" in this verse. Now, how can running on an orbit be explained for night and day?

In light of this reasoning, I'm inclined to believe 'running for an appointed term' most likely refers to 'serving their purposes for an appointed term'.

First of all, to give you an idea what companions of the Prophet (SAW) understanding looks like, you need to read how they answer questions posed to them by the Prophet(SAW). They would always revert back to the superiority of Allah's (SWT) knowledge and that of the Prophet (SAW). So when an aspect of knowledge isn't made plain to them, and they didn't ask, they would always subject their understanding to the fact that only Allah (SWT) knows best, after they might have exercised their "ijtihad" They are not arrogant lots who arrogate knowledge to themselves, and hence they seek accurate and authentic evidences to back up any opinion or claim!

I could get into the flaw in this point but I'd risk provoking you more than I already did.

I do not deal with assumptions on issues of my beliefs! I don't hold assumptions as facts, and would not base my interpretations on assumptions. You are the one that came up with the assumption of "verifying" the resting place for the Sun!

Fair enough.

Nah, the science of hadith had been traced to the earliest generation of companions after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), so i do not know what you are talking about.

Yes, but it has always been subjected to individual bias. Even with the science of hadith, one hadith may be accepted by one scholar while at the same time rejected by another scholar. If you reject an hadith for a reason, just understand that other Muslims may accept the same hadith for different reason.

Let's take the verses in question as an example, so some scholars held the opinion of geocentric model, while others held to the heliocentric model, but are these models the basis of faith in Islam?! The answer is NO!

I'm not aware of any Qur'anic scholar of antiquity holding opinion of heliocentric model. There were Muslim scientists about the 10th century opposed to geocentric model, but there is no clear indication that this opposition was borne out of deducing heliocentric model from the Qur'an.

Are these models the basis of faith? Yes. If the Qur'an implies one model and we determine that model is not the model of the solar system, then it is time to question the divinity or infallibility of Qur'an.

I can summarize what the verses in question states thus:

1. The Sun, Moon, Earth, Heavens, Night and Day are all signs by the Creator of the Universe for us to reflect, think, reason!
2. All are running for a specific time, as it has been decreed
3. The Sun and Moon have separate orbits they move within
4. The earth is being wrapped by night and day...

Due to advancement in knowledge, evidences suggests that the earth is spherical (...hence my 4 above suggests the earth's rotation) and the heliocentric model is more accurate. So tell me where the Qur'an is in error?!

Here, the verse 5 of chapter 39 states;

"He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night."

The night and day are wrapping over themselves here, not over the earth. I could say this is problematic as the Qur'an speaks of night and day as if they are tangible objects, capable of wrapping like clothes.

In common language we can say "the night has come", "the day has break", even though "come" and "break" are often used for tangible objects. But to say "the night wraps over the day" or "the day wraps over the night" is uncommon.

Also, I still hold that resting place of the sun according to 36:38, refers to a place the sun goes at sunset. I've explained it cannot mean the place the sun comes to rest at the end of the world because the context of the passage (36:37-40) addresses daily events - day and night(36:37, 40), phases of the moon(36:39).

There are numerous verses in the Qur'an addressing the end time. If resting place of the sun refers to where the sun comes to rest at end time, then the Qur'an would've mentioned the phrase among verses speaking of end times, rather than daily phenomena.

Also, the hadith of Abu Dharr supports my interpretation. I'm really not convinced otherwise. But I chose not to continue to drag it.


Lastly, Quran states night and day float in orbit(36:40) as the sun and moon. This does imply night and day are tangible objects rather than phenomena. You can say this is erroneous, unless of course you chose not to interpret 'falak' as literal orbit.

Well, aforementioned verses are clear, and what are important to Muslims are also clear! The Qur'an is a book of guidance, to guide the sincere heart to acknowledging the truth!

All these have been addressed within my responses to you, there are no issues with the text of the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) had made it clear, perhaps I should remind you:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." (Sahih international Q 3: 7)

When there are deviations in the heart, there happens to be little one can do to help, such persons keep seeking that which would justify their deviations, no matter the explanations provided!

No deviation of heart here. The evidence of the differences among scholars on fundamental issues are all there as yardstick to measure the clarity of the Qur'an. Aside the Qur'an claim that it is clear, you have no external evidence to support your position that the Qur'an is clear.

usermane:
Salaam



Let's go by your interpretation that running for an appointed term mean running on a path or an orbit. Let's also forget about the heavens. And let's turn to 'night and day' which are subjects of the verb "running" in this verse. Now, how can running on an orbit be explained for night and day?

In light of this reasoning, I'm inclined to believe 'running for an appointed term' most likely refers to 'serving their purposes for an appointed term'.

This was my statement:
"sino:

You are welcome.

I believe "all running for a specific term" means what it means, after all, at a point everything created would perish, except the Creator! (Qur'an). Secondly, the Arabic used is plural, if it was just for the Sun and Moon, then the word would be in dual form (You see why I had advised you learn the language of the Qur'an?!)

Also, as I have pointed out earlier, it is not just until it is explicitly stated that you would come to such conclusions, that is why I alluded to using your thinking skills! When you read, "He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient" does it suggests that it is the movement of the Sun and the Moon doing this wrapping around?! Does the Moon bring about night?!"

You seem to be the one trying to put words in my mouth so to speak, at this point, you are on your own!

usermane:

I could get into the flaw in this point but I'd risk provoking you more than I already did.

Is it with your pipe bombs?!

usermane:

Fair enough.



Yes, but it has always been subjected to individual bias. Even with the science of hadith, one hadith may be accepted by one scholar while at the same time rejected by another scholar. If you reject an hadith for a reason, just understand that other Muslims may accept the same hadith for different reason.

You bring your evidences not bias, no evidence, no acceptability from the Muslims! There is a reason for it to be called a science bro!

usermane:

I'm not aware of any Qur'anic scholar of antiquity holding opinion of heliocentric model. There were Muslim scientists about the 10th century opposed to geocentric model, but there is no clear indication that this opposition was borne out of deducing heliocentric model from the Qur'an.

Are these models the basis of faith? Yes. If the Qur'an implies one model and we determine that model is not the model of the solar system, then it is time to question the divinity or infallibility of Qur'an.

Lol, if it implies so according to your own interpretations abi?!I have stated what the Qur'an clearly states, you are free to force geocentric model on it!

usermane:

Here, the verse 5 of chapter 39 states;

"He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night."

The night and day are wrapping over themselves here, not over the earth. I could say this is problematic as the Qur'an speaks of night and day as if they are tangible objects, capable of wrapping like clothes.

In common language we can say "the night has come", "the day has break", even though "come" and "break" are often used for tangible objects. But to say "the night wraps over the day" or "the day wraps over the night" is uncommon.

Also, I still hold that resting place of the sun according to 36:38, refers to a place the sun goes at sunset. I've explained it cannot mean the place the sun comes to rest at the end of the world because the context of the passage (36:37-40) addresses daily events - day and night(36:37, 40), phases of the moon(36:39).

There are numerous verses in the Qur'an addressing the end time. If resting place of the sun refers to where the sun comes to rest at end time, then the Qur'an would've mentioned the phrase among verses speaking of end times, rather than daily phenomena.

Also, the hadith of Abu Dharr supports my interpretation. I'm really not convinced otherwise. But I chose not to continue to drag it.


Lastly, Quran states night and day float in orbit(36:40) as the sun and moon. This does imply night and day are tangible objects rather than phenomena. You can say this is erroneous, unless of course you chose not to interpret 'falak' as literal orbit.

When it is clearly stated in the verse[/quote]

And you didn't quote the beginning of the verse which stated the creation of heavens and THE EARTH?! In your own mind, 7th century Muslims thought that night and day were tangible things?! Even as they experienced it as we do?! Haba!, give yourself sense small na...

usermane:

No deviation of heart here. The evidence of the differences among scholars on fundamental issues are all there as yardstick to measure the clarity of the Qur'an. Aside the Qur'an claim that it is clear, you have no external evidence to support your position that the Qur'an is clear.

See, the external evidences would soon come, just wait a while, it is definitely coming!

Sino, where are you? Here is another verse on earth that raises more doubt on the Qur'an authenticity.

79:27 - 30: - Are you a more difficult creation or the heaven? He raised its ceiling and proportioned it. And he darkened its night and brought out its morning/brightness. And the earth after that He spread it?

"He darkened its night". "It" here refers to the heaven - sky.

Now, there is no night or day for the heaven, the space above the earth. The heaven is not an opaque solid receiving sunlight. Night is a phenomenon only applicable to the earth because of the earth opacity and rotation.

Also, what is meant by "darkened its night"? Sound like the night was clear or bright, then it was darkened. I can't make sense of it.

Plus, what is meant by "brought out its morning/brightness"?

^^

And someone still think this dude is muslim?. Think again. His case has worsened over the past 4 years. He was fair then. Now it is no longer hadith he has problems with. It is now Qur'an he claimed to defend. This I knew all along.

You know his "scholars" already... The so called "philosophers" who are pretty much anti-muslims and always make attempt to reinterpret Quran

usermane:
Sino, where are you? Here is another verse on earth that raises more doubt on the Qur'an authenticity.



"He darkened its night". "It" here refers to the heaven - sky.

Now, there is no night or day for the heaven, the space above the earth. The heaven is not an opaque solid receiving sunlight. Night is a phenomenon only applicable to the earth because of the earth opacity and rotation.

Also, what is meant by "darkened its night"? Sound like the night was clear or bright, then it was darkened. I can't make sense of it.

Plus, what is meant by "brought out its morning/brightness"?

Let me assist you with a 'proper' interpretation for your likes, "He darkened its night" is like adjusting the contrast on your flat screen TV!

You've clearly pointed out that heaven refers to sky, and we do not need special studying to know that the 'earth' faces the sky!

You know at night, the sky isn't dark, You would likely say that the earth is dark rather than saying the earth is facing the dark sky at night, and when light comes, by the 'rising of the sun', you would also likely say, the sky is still dark rather than say the earth is facing the brightened sky, which is brought about by the sun! The sky is made to be dark at night and brought out its light (sun) in the day for the benefit of those dwelling on earth! The Qur'an stated it in such a way to encapsulate the night and day so vividly you wouldn't need to have studied astronomy to understand this phenomenon!

Furthermore, the verses leading to this was actually stating the greatness of the creation of Allah (SWT) far and above the creation of man...Allah talks about the creation of the heavens and its significance for night and day, and the creation of the earth and how He made it inhabitable, when you reflect on how these creations are greater than man, you wouldn't be here arguing about rotation and resting place for the sun, you would submit in humility to the Creator of the universe!

A very interesting excerpt from NASA:

Why is the sky dark at night?

That question is not as simple as it may sound. You might think that space appears dark at night because that is when our side of Earth faces away from the Sun as our planet rotates on its axis every 24 hours. But what about all those other far away suns that appear as stars in the night sky? Our own Milky Way galaxy contains over 200 billion stars, and the entire universe probably contains over 100 billion galaxies. You might suppose that that many stars would light up the night like daytime!

Until the 20th century, astronomers didn't think it was even possible to count all the stars in the universe. They thought the universe went on forever. In other words, they thought the universe was infinite.

Besides being very hard to imagine, the trouble with an infinite universe is that no matter where you look in the night sky, you should see a star. Stars should overlap each other in the sky like tree trunks in the middle of a very thick forest. But, if this were the case, the sky would be blazing with light. This problem greatly troubled astronomers and became known as "Olbers' Paradox." A paradox is a statement that seems to disagree with itself.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-space/dark-sky.html

Empiree:
^^

And someone still think this dude is muslim?. Think again. His case has worsened over the past 4 years. He was fair then. Now it is no longer hadith he has problems with. It is now Qur'an he claimed to defend. This I knew all along.

You know hid "scholars" already... The so called "philosophers" who are pretty much anti-muslims and always make attempt to reinterpret Quran

He himself isn't claiming to be one any more, except I'm missing something...

sino:


Let me assist you with a 'proper' interpretation for your likes, "He darkened its night" is like adjusting the contrast on your flat screen TV!

Yes, but unlike the screen, night is not a physical object emitting light rays. The verse would make more sense if we assume night is a tangible object. For now, at best we can just hope there is an alternative non-literal meaning to the verse.

You've clearly pointed out that heaven refers to sky, and we do not need special studying to know that the 'earth' faces the sky!

You know at night, the sky isn't dark, You would likely say that the earth is dark rather than saying the earth is facing the dark sky at night, and when light comes, by the 'rising of the sun', you would also likely say, the sky is still dark rather than say the earth is facing the brightened sky, which is brought about by the sun! The sky is made to be dark at night and brought out its light (sun) in the day for the benefit of those dwelling on earth! The Qur'an stated it in such a way to encapsulate the night and day so vividly you wouldn't need to have studied astronomy to understand this phenomenon!

OK, I get your point, that the sky is made dark at night. Problem is, what the verse states is "He darkened its night". We've dealt with darkening of the night, earlier. But what is the night of the sky? How can the sky have night? Remember, the sky is everything above us. Perhaps from the upper troposphere, further away from us.

Next, it seem you didn't get the issue with "brought out its light". Keep in mind that when the earth rotate, it is rotating into the light. No light is being brought. Relative to earth, the sun is fixed. So the sky above any surface of the earth in the morning is either brought into the light or has been in the light all along. The light is not brought, it is where it has always been.

Furthermore, the verses leading to this was actually stating the greatness of the creation of Allah (SWT) far and above the creation of man...Allah talks about the creation of the heavens and its significance for night and day, and the creation of the earth and how He made it inhabitable, when you reflect on how these creations are greater than man, you wouldn't be here arguing about rotation and resting place for the sun, you would submit in humility to the Creator of the universe!

I will create a thread later today on some 15 contradictions between Qur'an and Facts. It seem you don't get it. The Qur'an has issues.

A very interesting excerpt from NASA:

Why is the sky dark at night?

That question is not as simple as it may sound. You might think that space appears dark at night because that is when our side of Earth faces away from the Sun as our planet rotates on its axis every 24 hours. But what about all those other far away suns that appear as stars in the night sky? Our own Milky Way galaxy contains over 200 billion stars, and the entire universe probably contains over 100 billion galaxies. You might suppose that that many stars would light up the night like daytime!

Until the 20th century, astronomers didn't think it was even possible to count all the stars in the universe. They thought the universe went on forever. In other words, they thought the universe was infinite.

Besides being very hard to imagine, the trouble with an infinite universe is that no matter where you look in the night sky, you should see a star. Stars should overlap each other in the sky like tree trunks in the middle of a very thick forest. But, if this were the case, the sky would be blazing with light. This problem greatly troubled astronomers and became known as "Olbers' Paradox." A paradox is a statement that seems to disagree with itself.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-space/dark-sky.html

Even if this address the issue of darkening of the night, it did not address the issue of the sky or heavens having night. Night is not a concept for space - sky. It is a concept for planets - solids.

EDIT: Olber's Paradox sought to understand why the sky in our view at night is dark. It doesn't explain that all of the sky, the heaven, is dark at night on earth.

Ultramane:


Yes, but unlike the screen, night is not a physical object emitting light rays. The verse would make more sense if we assume night is a tangible object. For now, at best we can just hope there is an alternative non-literal meaning to the verse.

Wow! I was right that my 'proper' interpretation was for your likes....Keep digging harder, you would see where the contrast button is placed in the verse...

Ultramane:

OK, I get your point, that the sky is made dark at night. Problem is, what the verse states is "He darkened its night". We've dealt with darkening of the night, earlier. But what is the night of the sky? How can the sky have night? Remember, the sky is everything above us. Perhaps from the upper troposphere, further away from us.

Bro, you are the one making up your own interpretations and forcing it on the Qur'an! I had told you to learn the language of the Qur'an, but no o, you just want to argue sha! Is the sky not dark at night and bright in the day ni?! So if you read "and the sky wept", you would most likely be asking does the sky have eyes?! Heard of figure of speech?!

Ultramane:

Next, it seem you didn't get the issue with "brought out its light". Keep in mind that when the earth rotate, it is rotating into the light. No light is being brought. Relative to earth, the sun is fixed. So the sky above any surface of the earth in the morning is either brought into the light or has been in the light all along. The light is not brought, it is where it has always been.

But I thought you usually consult tafsirs?! Can you share with us from your favourite tafsir if it tallies with your submissions, or you are the one just finding a line of argument?!

I have tried to explain that the sky that we all look up at, for a person on earth oblivious of whether it is rotating or not, becomes dark at night, and brightens at day. The brightening of the day is brought about by the sun, which is the light of the sky! In other verses of the Qur'an (because you do not base your conclusion on just a single verse), the sun was mentioned as being the source of the brightness, let me help you understand better:


"By the sun and its brightness

And [by] the moon when it follows it

And [by] the day when it displays it (i.e the sun and its brightness)" (Sahih International Qur'an 91:1-3)

I hope you would not make another funny interpretation with the last verse above

in another verse, Allah (SWT) talks about stars (Which the sun is) in the sky/heaven:

"And We have placed within the heaven great stars and have beautified it for the observers." (Sahih International Qur'an 15:16)

Ultramane:

I will create a thread later today on some 15 contradictions between Qur'an and Facts. It seem you don't get it. The Qur'an has issues.

I hope it isn't with the same line of reasoning you have presented here?!

Ultramane:

Even if this address the issue of darkening of the night, it did not address the issue of the sky or heavens having night. Night is not a concept for space - sky. It is a concept for planets - solids.

EDIT: Olber's Paradox sought to understand why the sky in our view at night is dark. It doesn't explain that all of the sky, the heaven, is dark at night on earth.

The heavens having night or day is based on your own construct and interpretation, it isn't difficult to understand what the verse is talking about is the sky at night and at day time as seen by inhabitants of earth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e0hrstSn_I

sino ati ultramane,

please check out my latest thread on atheism and islam

https://www.nairaland.com/5269656/why-islam-afraid-atheism-apostasy