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The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland

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The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 7:57pm On Jan 22, 2008
Translations are bound to have very small,sometimes negligible differences that don't alter the main message of the texts.
We have had several muslim apologists boast of the one Al Koran in arabic,un touched and unchanged,just like allah delivered it unto his prophet Muhammad.

Some have gone as far as making claims that the Bible is corrupted since it has various translations even though the various English translations have no contrasting messages.

Now we know the English translations of the Koran differ in style of writing so the Muslims tell us the Koran is basically useless in any other language but arabic and claim there is only one Arabic Koran.

What do you say if I tell you that claim is false
There are different Korans and I have proof.

The five current versions of the Koran are:


The Transmitter Hafs, who is Hafs ibn Suleyman ibn Al-Mugheerah Al-Asadi Al-Kuufi (d. 180H):
His Qiraa'ah named Hafs from 'Aasim is the most popular reading of the Quran in the world today, except for some parts of Africa. Hafs was officially adopted by Egypt in 1924. His chain from 'Aasim:

He heard from 'Aasim ibn Abu Najud Al-Kuufi (d. 128H) who was Taabi'i, i.e, among the generation following the Sahaabah, who heard from Abu Abdur-Rahman Abdullah ibn Habib As-Sulami, who heard from Uthman ibn Affan and Ali ibn Abi Talib and Zayd ibn Thaabit and Ubayy ibn Ka'b, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


The Transmitter Duuri, is Abu 'Amr Hafs ibn Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz ibn Subhan Ad-Duuri Al-Baghdaadi (d. 246H):
His Qiraa'ah named Duuri from Abu 'Amr is popular in parts of Africa like Somalia, Sudan as well as in other parts. His chain of from Abu 'Amr:

He heard from Abu Muhammad Yahya ibn Mubarak ibn Mugheerah Yazidiyy (d. 202H), who heard from Abu 'Amr Zuban ibn 'Ala Maziniyy Al-Busriyy (d. 154H), who heard from the Qiraa'aat from Sahaabis Ali and Uthman and Abu Musa and Umar and Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Zayd ibn Thaabit, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


The Transmitter Warsh, who is Abu Saeed Uthman ibn Saeed Al-Misri, nicknamed Warsh, (d. 197H):
HIs Qiraa'ah named Warsh from Naafi' is popular in North Africa. His chain from Naafi':

He heard from Naafi' ibn Abdur-Rahman ibn Abu Nu'aim Al-Madani (d. 169H), who heard from Abu Ja'far Yazid ibn Al-Qa'qaa' and Abu Dawud Abdur-Rahman ibn Hurmuz Al-A'raj and Shaybah ibn Nisah Al-Qaadhi and Abu Abdullah Muslim ibn Jundub Al-Hudhali and Abu Rawh Yazid ibn Ruman, who heard from Abu Hurairah and Ibn Abbaas and Abdullah ibn 'Ayyaash ibn Abi Rabii'ah, who heard from Ubayy ibn Ka'b, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


The Transmitter Suusi:
His Qiraa'ah named Suusi from Abu 'Amr is also found around the world in small parts.


The Transmitter Qaaluun, who is Imaam Qaaluun:
His Qiraa'ah named Qaaluun from Naafi' is popular in places like Libya in Africa. His chain from Naafi':

He heard from Naafi' ibn Abdur-Rahman ibn Abu Nu'aim Al-Madani (d. 169H), who heard from Abu Ja'far Yazid ibn Al-Qa'qaa', who heard from Abdullah ibn Abbaas and Abu Hurairah, who heard from Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Zayd ibn Thaabit, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


In case Muslim readers should be greatly concerned: The variances between these different versions of the Koran are generally quite small and minor, although there are a substantial number of them. Muhammad Fahd Khaaruun has published a version of the (Hafs) Koran which contains the variant readings from the 10 Accepted Readers in its margins. About 2/3 of the ayat (verses) have some sort of variant reading. The great majority are differences in the vowels inserted in certain words (remembering that the early written kufic texts of the Koran did not include vowels or diacritical marks). There appears to be only one difference that might represent a significant effect on belief, that in surah 2:184. There are many Islamic scholars' discussions about these many differences. As an example of one, in Hafs, surah 2:140 reads taquluna, while in Warsh, that text is in surah 2:139 and reads yaquluna. Another example: Hafs surah 2:214 reads yaquula while Warsh surah 2;212 reads yaquulu. Muslim scholars agree that such variations do not seriously alter the meaning of statements made in the Koran.

.

http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txo/koran.htm
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 8:28pm On Jan 22, 2008
@babyosis


There is one thing I want you to do for me, try giving me all the verses you want us to talk about in full and show the contradictions therein.

You  may still contact your deluded authors to give the full translation of all the translators and let us have a look at the contradictions.

Lastly, are you ready for a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?

Are you ready for the challenge?

Back to the topic, can I have some verses from the Quran existing in some Quran but missing in some or verses from different translators going against each other?

Thanks cool
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 8:39pm On Jan 22, 2008
are you disputing the above or you just want to play games?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 8:41pm On Jan 22, 2008
babs787:

@babyosis


There is one thing I want you to do for me, try giving me all the verses you want us to talk about in full and show the contradictions therein.

You may still contact your deluded authors to give the full translation of all the translators and let us have a look at the contradictions.

Lastly, are you ready for a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?

Are you ready for the challenge?

Back to the topic, can I have some verses from the Quran existing in some Quran but missing in some or verses from different translators going against each other?

Thanks cool

don't give yourself a self inflicted heart attack
There are various Korans,do you doubt it?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 8:47pm On Jan 22, 2008
@Babyosis

are you disputing the above or you just want to play games?

My post was very straight forward and understandable only if you are honest to yourself.


don't give yourself a self inflicted heart attack
There are various Korans,do you doubt it?

In case you missed my earlier post, this is it again

There is one thing I want you to do for me, try giving me all the verses you want us to talk about in full and show the contradictions therein.

You  may still contact your deluded authors to give the full translation of all the translators and let us have a look at the contradictions.

So please give me verses in full please

cool

Babyosis, do you care if I create a thread probably for you on:

a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?


Thanks for your cooperation
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 8:50pm On Jan 22, 2008
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#history
babs,allow me to lay a foundation first.
cool down,the thread just began. grin


N.J. Dawood is an Arabic scholar who has translated the Qur'an, he writes:

, owing to the fact that the kufic script in which the Koran was originally written contained no indication of vowels or diacritical points, variant readings are recognized by Muslims as of equal authority. (N.J. Dawood, The Koran, Middlesex, England: Penguin Books, 1983, p. 10, bold added)
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 8:56pm On Jan 22, 2008
Still laying my foundation.
Mohammed allowed variations.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61

Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."

Bukhuri: vol. 4, hadith 682, book 56

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) Verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same Verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "Both of you are correct, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed."
The above hadiths clearly shows that Muhammad allowed some variation regarding the reciting of the Qur'an.

Now don't tell us recitation means just prononciations,we have heard that altaquiyyah before
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:00pm On Jan 22, 2008
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60

Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:

'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:01pm On Jan 22, 2008
The next question that we need to ask is, "Did Uthman and his team do any editing or selecting when they made their version of the Qu'ran?" The next three hadiths [/color][color=#990000][color=#990000][/color]show us that there was editing and selecting
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 9:02pm On Jan 22, 2008
@babyosis

Insert Quote
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#history
babs,allow me to lay a foundation first.
cool down,the thread just began.



I know you dont have any other website part from the one above.

In order to enjoy the drama, will you kindly serve the verses in full and start from there?


Babyosis, stop pretending that you did not see my request and want you and I to dog deep into the bible so that as I am replying you here, you will also be doing same in similar thread for the bible.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 9:04pm On Jan 22, 2008
@babyosis


The next question that we need to ask is, "Did Uthman and his team do any editing or selecting when they made their version of the Qu'ran?" The next three hadiths show us that there was editing and selecting



You saw my question quite right and if you did not, please supply the verses in full from the translators going against each other. Very simple!!


Babyosis, stop pretending that you did not see my request and want you and I to dog deep into the bible so that as I am replying you here, you will also be doing same in similar thread for the bible.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:05pm On Jan 22, 2008
babs787:

@babyosis



I know you don't have any other website part from the one above.

In order to enjoy the drama, will you kindly serve the verses in full and start from there?
Babyosis, stop pretending that you did not see my request and want you and I to dog deep into the bible so that as I am replying you here, you will also be doing same in similar thread for the bible.

babs,I said cool down.
Igbos say we use slow slow to eat hot soup.
We shall get there.
I'm still laying a foundation, with evidence from the hadiths,I hope you're following
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:06pm On Jan 22, 2008
Oya first hadith


Bukhari: vol. 8, hadith 817, p. 539-540; book 82

Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male and female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse), and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, `By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed.

It is obvious that `Umar was convinced that stoning an adulterer was part of the Qur'an and should not be removed. The modern Qur'an however does not contain these verses. So where have they gone? These verses must have been removed by those who were in charge of the text of the Qur'an. What is clear is that `Umar remembered these verses and did not think that they should be edited out while others obviously did, and so today they are not in the modern Qur'an
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:08pm On Jan 22, 2008
2nd hadith

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 60, p. 46; book 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:

I said to `Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: `Those of you who die and leave wives behind, without turning them out,' has been abrogated by an other Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" `Uthman said, "Leave it (where it is), O son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Qur'an) from its original position."

Here we see that Ibn Az-Zubair and Uthman disagreed over whether or not a particular verse should be included in the Qur'an. Ibn Az-Zubair believed that the verse had been abrogated and therefore should be removed from the Qur'an, while Uthman was insistent that the verse should remain. Uthman had his way and so this verse is in the Qur'an today.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:11pm On Jan 22, 2008
I promised 3 hadiths,now 3 times's the charm

Mishkat Al-Masabih: book 8, ch. 3, last hadith [4]

Ibn Abbas said he asked Uthman[1] what had induced them to deal with al-Anfal[2] which is one of the mathani[3] and with Bara`a[4] which is one with a hundred verses, joining them without writing the line containing "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,"[5] and putting it among the seven long ones. When he asked again what had induced them to do that, Uthman replied, "Over a period suras with numerous verses would come down to God's messenger, and when something came down to him he would call one of those who wrote and tell him to put these verses in the sura in which such and such is mentioned, and when a verse came down he would tell them to put it in the sura in which such and such is mentioned. Now al-Anfal was one of the first to come down in Medina and Bara`a was among the last of the Qur'an to come down, and the subject-matter of the one resembled that of the other, so because God's messenger was taken without having explained to us whether it belonged to it, for that reason I joined them without writing the line containing `In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,' and put it among the long suras."

Footnotes for the above hadith

Uthman, the third successor to Muhammad.
al-Anfal is Sura (chapter) 8 in the Qur'an.
mathani: suras with less than 100 verses.
Bara`a, also called Tawba, is Sura 9.
Every sura in the Qur'an is introduced by "In the name of God, " except Sura 9.

Here we see that Uthman was questioned by other Muslims as to why he did not include the phrase, "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful", at the beginning of sura 9. His answer was that Muhammad had died without explaining where sura 9 belonged and so he (Uthman) joined it to sura 8 because they "resembled" each other. What is obvious is that some Muslims felt the phrase should have been there while Uthman did not. Uthman's decision prevailed and so the phrase is not included in the modern Qur'an.

These three examples from the hadith clearly show that there was some editing involved by those who compiled the Qur'an. It is also clear that the editors' decision was not universally agreed upon; it did not have universal consensus.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:13pm On Jan 22, 2008
In Summary

Muhammad never finalized how the Qur'an was to be recited and allowed variation.

There were real variations in the way the Qur'an was being memorized and recited after Muhammad's death. This caused problems.
Uthman and a team of others did a certain amount of editing to produce a standard text of the Qur'an.

Then Uthman ordered that all other Qur'ans be burnt and his version be made the only standard version for the Muslim world. Oral and written tradition now had to conform to Uthman's standard version.

Some of the Companions, like Ibn Mas'ud, were not happy with Uthman's actions and suffered for it.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:20pm On Jan 22, 2008
So my people we can see from these authentic Muslim hadiths that the Koran has undergone various manipulations,additions and subtractions,contrary to their claims

Having now read many of the hadiths and other sources it is obvious that these Muslim claims are an exaggeration and have no support at all from the authoritative hadiths. In fact the hadiths record the opposite. They say that Muhammad never standardized the Qur'an and allowed variation and that the early Muslims memorized the Qur'an slightly differently. Then Uthman and a team of others edited and standardized one version of the Qur'an and had all others burnt. I have no doubt that the collection of the Qur'an that Uthman made is one good record of what Muhammad recited. However it was not the only good collection that was made, and it was not a collection made by Muhammad.

so next time you hear Muslims tell you this

The text of the Qur'an is entirely reliable. It has been as it is, unaltered, unedited, not tampered with in any way, since the time of its revelation. (M. Fethullah Gulen, Questions this Modern Age Puts to Islam. London: Truestar, 1993. p.58)

It (the Qur'an) was memorised by Mohammed and then dictated to his companions, and written down by scribes, who cross-checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters (suras) have ever been changed over the centuries. (Understanding Islam and the Muslims, The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Inc. (pamphlet) Nov. 1991).

Refer to these hadiths.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:25pm On Jan 22, 2008
Now babs,a snippet at the differences.

Appendix A: Samarqand MSS VS 1924 Egyptian Edition

http://answering-islam.org.uk/PQ/A1.htm#AppendA

remember this exercise is just to prove your claim of the Koran remaining the same even to a dot to be false.
since you cannot understand how there could be slight variations in reporting an incidence without losing the main message and make baseless claims that the Koran is without such slight insignificant variations in transmission.(,some major I might add).
Now you know the Imam has fed you lies all these years. grin
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 9:40pm On Jan 22, 2008
what Muslims claim

No other book in the world can match the Qur'an , The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. , No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable & Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4, bold added)


The truth

Subhii al-Saalih is an Islamic scholar in this area. He summarizes the differences into seven categories [3].

Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).

Differences in consonants.

Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.

Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.

Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.

Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.

Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.

What is clear from this list is that the differences are more than just differences in pronunciation or dialect.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#history
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 3:25am On Jan 23, 2008
Enjoy this post by pilgrim1 from another thread.

Usually, I would simply advise gentlemen like you to carefully make your research and verify issues first before starting out in such outbursts.

Actually, I have seen a few of those different editions for myself when I was personally trying to verify the claims of my former religion - and yes, there are different editions of those translations: all of which are saying very different things.

For now, I'll rather point your attention to something interesting. Please see this article by A.R. Kidwai which lists them out in easy to read annotations. If you have any misgivings and you feel that what I have shared so far is not true, then you need to consult Kidwai to let him know how seriously he's misleading the Muslim ummah on this.

Did I say 85 editions from only FOUR translators? Well, you may have something to say about George Sale's translation of the Qur'an - which has undergone 123 editions already! And that is ONLY ONE version alone O!!

When you settle down, I have another list for you - but it is not about English Qur'ans. It is rather about the diferrent Arabic Qur'ans - as different as the West is from the East.  For now, to whet your appetite, you may want to see Wikipedia on yet another different manuscript of the Arabic Qur'an:


Excerpt:

The Sana'a manuscripts—found in Yemen in 1972—represent the oldest extent version of the Quran, dated to the latter half of the 7th century. In it are textual variations from the standard Quran that is presently read throughout the world.

But, of course, all those are mere sampling of small gists. When you are hungry enough, I will take the time to show you real differences between the DIFFERENT Arabic Qur'ans. Just dress warm, eh?


So babs and co,next time you want to talk of versions of the Bible think of these Koran editions and revisions.

http://www.alhafeez.org/rashid/qtranslate.html
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by Nobody: 9:02am On Jan 23, 2008
+osisi

So babs and co,next time you want to talk of versions of the Bible think of these Koran editions and revisions.

I can now see that you now believe in the different versions of the Bible now ? abi


You can go on and on. Is this the best you can produce?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 9:36am On Jan 23, 2008
@mdsocks,

mdsocks:

+osisi

I can now see that you now believe in the different versions of the Bible now ? abi


You can go on and on. Is this the best you can produce?

You guys sicken common sense. Nobody has ever denied that there are various versions and translations of the Bible. Muslims have tried to give the idea that the Bible cannot be trusted because it has many versions, editions, translations, etc.

What have your folks been arguing all this while but the same thing you complain about? Here:

babs787:

Lastly, are you ready for a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?

Dear mdsocks, if you care to drop your Muslim hypocrisy, you would see the empty apologetics that you are here whining about. When people try to apply the same versions and translations of the Qur'an, you hyperventilate and summersault, claiming that the people that point out the same thing about the false claims of Muslims on this same issue are "deluded". Are there no VERSIONS, EDITIONS and TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an - or are you truly having such a difficulty with plain English? Just what is wrong with your thinking that you guys have no conscience any more for simple truth?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by Nobody: 10:27am On Jan 23, 2008
You guys sicken common sense. Nobody has ever denied that there are various versions and translations of the Bible. Muslims have tried to give the idea that the Bible cannot be trusted because it has many versions, editions, translations, etc.


Not because it got many versions but cause of varying informations given in the different versions which has nullified the logical reasoning that it's consistent and 100% truth.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by Nobody: 10:39am On Jan 23, 2008
@poster

The variations are just pronuonciations and translation error from arabic to other languages.


There are some wordings in arabic language that you need to a wholes entence to explain in another language thereby neccesitating the need to find another suitable word to get larger understanding of the Holy Koran.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by olajidesam(m): 11:05am On Jan 23, 2008
smiley the version must have origin, i care to know the origin
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 11:08am On Jan 23, 2008
@mdsocks,

mdsocks:

Not because it got many versions but cause of varying informations given in the different versions which has nullified the logical reasoning that it's consistent and 100% truth.

I apologise for the tone in my first line; but your kind of argument is one of the reasons why Muslim apologetics actually turns me off.

I do not agree with you that it has not been about the Bible having "many versions" - actually, the Muslim argument has been about VERSIONS of the Bible. Look carefully in almost all (if not all) the Muslim arguments and deliberate castigation against the Bible - they have been based on ideas of VERSIONS, TRANSLATIONS, EDITIONS, etc - and not about the "original" manuscripts of the Bible.

In the same way, if there was going to be ANY genuine or coherent discussion/debate on this subject, Muslims should be willing to acknowledge that there are as MANY EDITIONS, VERSIONS, TRANSLATIONS, etc of the Qur'an!! That is a fact that not even the most insidious Muslim apologist can deny - unless that person has no shame and is actually sick in his conscience!

So why is it that when these things are pointed out, then Muslims begin to unfounded excuses about them? It is easy for Muslims to claim that the Injil and the Torah are LOST (which is a deliberate and shameless lie that strengthens my rejection of Islam); but would the same Muslims be willing to find out if the central Gospel message today in the Bible differed in ANY significant way from what the apostles preached?

Let me give you an example. As a former Muslim, I rejected the idea that the Jewish scriptures actually declared that God was always known as FATHER - Deut. 32:6 and Isaiah 63:16. The arguement was again that this was a "corruption" - and that was the LIE the Ulema and Muslim scholars spoon-fed us all.

However, something happened in my life that made me begin to thirst deeply to know if the Muslim claims I once held were true by any dot. Shocking as it was, I discovered they were all false. NOT ONE TIME have those two verses [Deut. 32:6 and Isaiah 63:16] ever been "altered", "changed", or "corrupted".

I was not angry - I was deeply ashamed!! I desperately wanted to know the truth and was fortunate to be exposed to respected libraries and historical resources - and the more I searched, the more the truth about that fact were even more established. All I got from the several Muslim scholars I contacted was the same excuses - "they have been corrupted" - and my one question was "BY WHO??" I was fed that same excuse again and again - without evidence - until another incident forced me to take a stand: and I took a definite stand to stop reading or listening to the false claims from Muslim (so-called) scholars.

bear with me for just a moment here. The big question is this: if the Jewish scriptures declaring God as FATHER was a known fact that has never been altered or corrupted by anyone through history, can we be bold to state in simple terms that the Qur'an deceived Muslims?

There is no middle ground here: it is either Muhammad's denial that God is FATHER be dropped; or Muslims have to choose the alternative of accusing Moses, Isaiah and other Biblical prophets (such as Jeremiah, David, etc) of falsehood.

WHICH is WHICH, mdsocks? undecided
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 11:10am On Jan 23, 2008
@mdsocks,

mdsocks:

@poster

The variations are just pronuonciations and translation error from arabic to other languages.

That's not true. There are TEXTUAL VARIATIONS - and that is what Muslim scholars do not want you to find out. QED.

Further to what I just posted above, the issue for me stood like this:

[list]Question: Was God known as FATHER?

Answer:

(a) The Biblical prophets (Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, David)
ALL say YES!!


or


(b) MUHAMMAD denied the revelations of the Biblical prophets
- he denied that God was known as FATHER.

The dilemma: a time came for pilgrim.1 to choose between the Biblical REVELATIONS and the Muslim DENIALS.[/list]

I chose the Bible and left Islam.

Even when you go through the various English translations in use in Biblical Christianity, you will not find anyone denying that God was known as "FATHER" - OT and NT. It is not just about the versions, editions, translations of the Bible that are of deep concerns here. Rather, a mature attitude to this discussion is: what exactly is the message of the Bible?

God is the FATHER.

If you deny that FACT, what are you left with?
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by Aliyasimam: 11:14am On Jan 23, 2008
That person who brought this argument i dont think he know even a single thing about qur'an and entire Islamic religion. Please i have a single and simple question to ask any Christian or anybody who said that there are 5 Version of Qur'an. (1) Can someone tell me a single verse that can be found in Qur'an here in Nigeria that can't be found in Qur'an in America, Saudi Arabia and other countries around the world. (2) Have you ever come across Old Qur'an and New Qur'an version, as of the case of Bible that we can have Old, and New Testament? (3) Please if you have even a single verse of Qur'an that you saw before which cannot be found, or altered in other version of Qur'an please kindly post it to this forum.
(4) Why Old and New Testament?

CONDITIONS FOR ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS

1) That Qur'an must be recognize and acceptable amont all muslims around the world (Since we have only one Qur'an) , as the Old and New Testament is acceptable among Christian.

2) There shall be no Internet references, reference shall be from Qur'an and Bible and other recognizeable books from well known scholars both from Islam and Christian.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 11:28am On Jan 23, 2008
@Aliyasimam,

Aliyasimam:

That person who brought this argument i don't think he know even a single thing about qur'an and entire Islamic religion. Please i have a single and simple question to ask any Christian or anybody who said that there are 5 Version of Qur'an.

But here are 5 questions already you asked! Are you that desperate?

Aliyasimam:

(1) Can someone tell me a single verse that can be found in Qur'an here in Nigeria that can't be found in Qur'an in America, Saudi Arabia and other countries around the world.

Depends on what Qur'an you are dealing with. We have been discussing this topic in stages - and until you Muslims drop your hypocrisy of attacking the Bible based on VERSIONS, EDITIONS and TRANSLATIONS, then we have a clear basis to bring you the real issues that you really have been excusing all this while.

Are there no VERSIONS, EDITIONS and TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an?

In the same way that Muslims like to run to the versions and translations of the Bible, can we apply the same rule of thumb to the Qur'an? Are you willing to face up to that?

Aliyasimam:

(2) Have you ever come across Old Qur'an and New Qur'an version, as of the case of Bible that we can have Old, and New Testament?

If you are still on the VERSIONS of the Bible, then YES - I have personally come across the VERSIONS of the Qur'an.

Aliyasimam:

(3) Please if you have even a single verse of Qur'an that you saw before which cannot be found, or altered in other version of Qur'an please kindly post it to this forum.

We don't like to recycle arguments - and this has been already posted on the Forum. Consult the "miracle of 19" by Rashad Khalifa who dropped TWO verses from his VERSION of the the QUR'AN!

Aliyasimam:

(4) Why Old and New Testament?

You should really be asking for another thread - where we can ask 'Allah' that question! Did he not claim that he sent down and confirmed the "former" scriptures? What scriptures was he referring to?

As to "why" the Old and New Testament, in simple terms: the OT points to the prohecies fulfilled in the NT.

Aliyasimam:

CONDITIONS FOR ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS

1) That Qur'an must be recognize and acceptable amont all muslims around the world (Since we have only one Qur'an) , as the Old and New Testament is acceptable among Christian.

I hear. What about the NUMEROUS versions of the Qur'an? Are you willing to drop your Muslim hypocrisy and arguments against the Bible?

Aliyasimam:

2) There shall be no Internet references, reference shall be from Qur'an and Bible and other recognizeable books from well known scholars both from Islam and Christian.

This is hypocrisy undiluted!

What sources have your Muslim brethren been plagiarizing all this while? grin
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 11:43am On Jan 23, 2008
You guys should understand that we are not here to fight anybody - and more than anything, our appeal is that Muslims should drop their endless attacks on the Bible.

If they would not drop that heinous hypocrisy, then for conscience and heaven's sake, they should very carefully apply the very same arguments to their Qur'an on the basis of VERSIONS, TRANSLATIONS and EDITIONS. Afterall, no one can deny that there are numerous versions, translations and editions of the Qur'an - even in English, all are saying very different things in many verses.

At the end of the day, I am still waiting for any Muslim to tell us WHY Muhammad had to deny the clear, unaltered revelations of the Biblical prophets who knew God as FATHER!! WHy did Muhammad deny that Revelation? Can you please share with us on this without the usual Muslim animosity?

Cheers.
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by luvus: 11:51am On Jan 23, 2008
@osisi & pilgrim

wow wow!! i cant help myself be amused at the way this thread has gone. please may God bless and continually guide you all and others in helping us to know the falsehood in Islam. Amin.

@pilgrim
However, i wish to request further please give us reference to sites that discuss this isue

Consult the "miracle of 19" by Rashad Khalifa who dropped TWO verses from his VERSION of the the QUR'AN!

Thanks to you 2, i will invite many to see this thread, oh i believe more in the bible, oh thank you Jesus Christ my spirit is rejoicing,

@all muslim please lets read this again and evaluate it.

@babs

finally, please i want to request just one answer do you acept that there are many versions, translations of the Quran?

thanks babs
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 12:11pm On Jan 23, 2008
Hi @luvus, smiley

luvus:

@osisi & pilgrim

wow wow!! i can't help myself be amused at the way this thread has gone. please may God bless and continually guide you all and others in helping us to know the falsehood in Islam. Amin.

Many blessings to you.

Actually, even if none of us did anything about it, there are millions of others that God Himself is bringing to His love and truth - and I can be grateful that I'm one of such.

luvus:

@pilgrim
However, i wish to request further please give us reference to sites that discuss this isue

Consult the "miracle of 19" by Rashad Khalifa who dropped TWO verses from his VERSION of the the QUR'AN!

On Nairaland, this has been posted a few times in a few thread - and that was why I offered that I do not like to recycle materials. Such recycling is another gimmick well employed by Muslims; and we all know that stale gists and recycled materials are the very things that kill the zest of any discussion (which is why Muslims always try to keep recycling the same old arguements).

Nonetheless, here is the link on Nairaland where it was first posted (click here). A snapshot of the revelant pages of Rashad Khalifa's Qur'an is as below:







Source: (http://www.mostmerciful.com/allah-countervails.htm)


We have asked Muslims who often deliberately enjoy attacking the Bible on the argument of versions, editions and translations to apply that same rule to the Qur'an. You will not see them do so any one time!

That the above case is well known in the Muslim world, please see the Wikipedia corroboration below:

[list]As early as 1976 he became the target of criticism when he made claims that appeared heretical according to traditional Muslims - such as:

Removal of two allegedly fabricated verses from the Qur'an (9:128-129),
on the grounds that they allegedly break word frequency patterns of
multiples of 19, as well as anomalous treatment of them in well-known hadith
regarding the collection of the Qur'an.

Source: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa)[/list]

Against the charge of heresy, Dr. Rashad Khalifa's argument for his persuasions can be found here: (http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix29.html) and several other places.

The hypocrisy in all this is that, while many Muslims (Sunni, Shia or whatever) quote Dr. Rashad in many instances for the "miracle of 19", they still condemn the same man whose article they plagiarize!! undecided

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