gregyboy:



[s]Lets assume its an ooni sculpture bring a recent photo of ooni dressing like that atleast a photo in the contemporary nigeria if they match we will agree its was ooni
Dont mind him davidnazee he is not even aware owo did similar art as the Ife art only god know if its not owo that made the art for ife because even carbon dating records that it has the oldest palace amongst the yoruba people and it is suceeded by a benin stool, probably that artwork came from owo amongst the tribute paid to benin by owo people
The problem i have with you TAO11 you just share links that you feel suit your explanation without having a second thought on the details
That's how you post ryders work to peove a point and the moment i started using it to prove my point you start rejecting it and called it an old error work but you keep posting egharevba old error full works to prove your point
Here is a picture of owo art similar with ife art, we know ife art works are on naturalistic model, am so sure this artwork you claim is ooni of ife was made by benins in owo depicting an owo king and its regalia
Image showing owo art
Image two shows an owo artwork taking semblance with a benin artwork the benin had introduced thier artworks to owo[/s]

I exchange only with people having something upstairs. Go get yourself Queen Primer.

Go away, let your elders talk to me.

TAO11:


I exchange only with people having something upstairs. Go get yourself Queen Primer.

Go away, let your elders talk to me.

Hahaha dont cover up face me woman


What state are you from

The following are some historical information from academics which confirms the existence of this practice:

(1) Dr. R. E. Bradbury (who in his days was the most outstanding authority on Benin in the world) is the noted --- by A. F. C. Ryder --- to have said that the Edo people themselves confirmed that certain messengers do carry an "Oba's remains" to Ife.

To quote the actual words of A. F. C. Ryder:

"In a personal communication, Dr R. E. Bradbury points out that 'the Edo speak of the messengers who carried the Oba's remains to Ife ..."

Reference:
A. F. C. Ryder, "A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship", The Journal of African History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1965), footnote 10.


(2) Professor R. C. C. Law writes --- in his "The Heritage of Oduduwa" --- as follows:

"At Benin, parts of the bodies of the deceased kings were sent to Ile-Ife for burial."

R. C. C. Law, (1973), p.211.


(3) Moreover, the illustrious Bini historian, Chief Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba (who also doubles as the earliest indigenous historian of Edo extraction) spells out the specific details of this practice.

He describes, for example, what is specifically meant by "Oba's remains" or "parts" with some quite graphic detail. He writes:

"The head of the royal corpse was subsequently exhumed and taken to the royal ancestral grave at Ile-Ife; but this was only done in every third reign."

Reference:
J. U. Egharevba, Benin Law and Custom, (CMS Niger Press, Port Harcourt 1946), p.72.


In fact, latter archaeological finds in the years 1961-2 came to corroborate the detailed historical data that had been given by Chief Egharevba in the mid-1940s.

Thus did Chief Egharevba become vindicated from the conspiracy jokes against him by his own people who think he uttered all-the-truth unnecessarily.

See the next for the details:

cc: MetaPhysical gomojam

gregyboy:


[s]Hahaha dont cover up face me woman

What state are you from.[/s]

Are you unstable??

Go away, let your parents talk to me.

In the year 1961 the prominent archaeologist, Frank Willett began conducting archaeological excavation of a number of ancient sites in ife.

The relevant one here is his 1961-2 archaeological excavation of the Orun Oba Ado site, where he made some finds which I find to be astoundingly outstanding.

Wait! Did he find skulls?

No, he didn't --- At least not in the parts of Orun Oba Ado which he fully excavated.

What then did he find that I consider to be astounding find, which I also noted to be corroborative of the details given by Chief Egharevba in the 1940s??

Before revealing this, I will allude to a very important statement he made in relation to another excavation quest --- his "excavation of the area around the Opa Oranmiyan":

He indicated that to disprove a local tradition of olden burial, what archaeologists look out for is the absense of burial pits.

In other words, archaeologists themselves understand that the absense of human remains is not the factor for disproof.

In other words, human remains could be put to other 'sacred' use long before present times.

Having clarified this, what then did Frank Willett find during his excavation of the Orun Oba Ado site??

Did he find olden burial pits during the course of his excavation of the site??

And the answer is YES!

In fact, the most astonishing aspect of this find is not simply his discovery of the burial pits, but the number of burial pits he found at the site.

He found eleven (11) circular pits which he himself termed "burial pits".

See below for reference:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, PP.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria.


Now, recall that Chief Egharevba had in the 1940s given the historical data that the practice of sending the heads of Benin kings to Ife for burial was only done in every third reign:

Now let's do an appropriate enumeration of the number of thirds-reign Benin Kings and see if it also come to eleven (11) just like the number of burial pits found at Orun Oba Ado.

See next comment.

cc: OgboAto MetaPhysical macof

TAO11:
In the year 1961 the prominent archaeologist, Frank Willett began conducting archaeological excavation of a number of ancient sites in ife.

The relevant one here is his 1961-2 archaeological excavation of the Orun Oba Ado site, where he made some finds which I find to be astoundingly outstanding.

Wait! Did he find skulls?

No, he didn't --- At least not in the parts of Orun Oba Ado which he fully excavated.

What then could he have found that I consider to be an astounding find, which I also nlted to be corroborative of the details given by Chief Egharevba in the 1940s??

Before revealing this, I will allude to a very important statement he made in relation to another excavation quest --- his "excavation of the area around the Opa Oranmiyan":

He indicated that to disprove a local tradition of olden burial, what archaeologists look out for is the absense of burial pits.

In other words, archaeologists themselves understand that the absense of human remains is not the factor for disproof.

In other words, human remains could be put to other 'sacred' use long before present times.


Having clarified this, what then did Frank Willett find during his excavation of Orun Oba Ado??

Did he find olden burial pits at the Orun Oba Ado site during the course of his excavation of the site??

And the answer is YES!

In fact, the most important aspect of this find is not simply his discovery of the burial pits, but the number of the burial pits he found at the site.

He found eleven (11) circular pits which he himself termed "burial pits".

See below for reference:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, PP.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria.



Recall that Chief Egharevba had in the 1940s given the historical data that the practice of sending the exhumed heads of Benin kings to Ife for burial was done in every third reign:

Now let's do an appropriate enumeration of the number of thirds-reign Benin Kings and see if it also come to eleven (11).

See next comment.

cc: OgboAto MetaPhysical macof

Please where is the picture of the burial sites or graves and what evidence is there that says it was Benin kings buried there?
Do you know that the same historians you quote also agrees that the institution of kingship in Benin is older than that of Ile-Ife or other Yoruba states.. so how can Ife be older or greater than Benin?
continue your bad work of revisionist, it doesn't change a thing or place Ife above Benin..

The following shows a listing of all the reigns in Benin kingdom starting from Oranmiyan's all the way down to before Ovoranmwen's whose partial reign and imminent deposing marked the beginning of the British colonial take over of Benin's polity.

Refer to https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html for a verification of this listing.

1. Oronmiyan
2. Eweka I
3. Uwakhuanhen ☆
4. Ehenmihen
5. Ewedo
6. Oguola ☆
7. Edoni
8. Udagbedo
9. Ohen ☆
10. Ogbeka
11. Orobiru
12. Uwaifiokun ☆
13. Ewuare I
14. Ezoti
15. Olua ☆
16. Ozolua
17. Esegie
18. Orhogbua ☆
19. Ehengbuda
20. Ohuan
21. Ahenzae ☆
22. Akenzua
23. Akengboi
24. Akenkpaye ☆
25. Akengbodo
26. Oroghene
27. Ewuakpe ☆
28. Ozuere
29. Akenzua I
30. Eresoyen ☆
31. Akengbuda
32. Obanosa
33. Ogbebo ☆
34. Osemwende
35. Adolor
36. Ovoranmwen

(A) Starting with Oronmiyan as the reference point, I have indicated the successive "third-reigns" with a "☆" for ease of following through.

And there are obviously eleven "third-reigns" in total.


(B) If, however, one contends that Oronmiyan was not formally Oba at Benin, and that the enumeration should start with Eweka I as the reference point; then the eventual total number of "third-reigns" would still remain eleven.

(C) Even if one argues that the tradition resulted from an after-thought subsequent to when the "first" Oba Eweka I had already left the scene, then the eventual total number of "third-reigns" --- starting thus with Uwakhuahen as the reference point --- would still remain eleven.


As I have since noted before now, this resulting total number of "third-reigns" (i.e. eleven )
matches precisely the total number of circular "burial pits" (i.e. "eleven" ) which Frank Willett noted that he found at Orun Oba Ado, when he conducted an archaeological excavation of the site.

Refer below for reference to Frank Willett's find:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, pp.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria

Orun Oba Ado --- SEALED! Q. E. D.


Moving on the the OGANE or OGHENE topic while you all struggle for life on this one.

MetaPhysical OgboAto gomojam

davidnazee:


[s]Please where is the picture of the burial sites or graves and what evidence is there that says it was Benin kings buried there?
Do you know that the same historians you quote also agrees that the institution of kingship in Benin is older than that of Ile-Ife or other Yoruba states.. so how can Ife be older or greater than Benin?
continue your bad work of revisionist, it doesn't change a thing or place Ife above Benin..[/s]

Where is the picture of your brain??

No picture --- then no brain for yoh!!


Anyways, sane and sensible people know that articles published in journals of archaeology, etc. are authoritative even if they are written only in words.

I have been citing authoritative journals with detailed reference/page numbers, and links to the materials. But you're here dead-scared to open the materials and read.

Get yourself "Queen Primer" if you need pictures to be able to read.

Queen Primer has both text and pictures and Start learning to read from there. In fact, you may ignore the text and focus on the pictures.

I hope you won't comit suicide sha.

Truth is bitter, I understand.

TAO11:


Where is the picture of your brain??

No picture --- then no brain for yoh!!


Anyways, sane and sensible people know that articles published in journals of archaeology, etc. are authoritative even if written in words.

I have been cited authoritative journals with detailed reference and links to the materials with page number. But you're dead-scared to open and read.

Get yourself "Queen Primer" it has pictures and text. Start learning to read from there.

I hope you won't comit suicide sha.

Truth is bitter, I understand.

Which truth is bitter? nobody cares about your idiotic posts.
This your maniacal attempt to change history is coming too late.. Benin don't need to explain or prove the greatness of Benin Kingdom because the impact of Benin is still felt till today even in Yorubalands unlike you Yorubas that will continue to explain and lie and distort history inorder to gain historical relevance which you do not have.

Every evidence you have provided only shows one thing and that is that Yoruba history is filled with myths and speculation.. There is no detailed account of Ife history, not even of Oranmiyan till his sojourn in Benin. The only accounts (even the myths) of Ife is always about its supposed relationship to Benin Kingdom.
Benin (Igodomigodo) predates Ife and is greater than Ife. That is a known fact.

davidnazee:


[s]Which truth is bitter? nobody cares about your idiotic posts.
This your maniacal attempt to change history is coming too late.. Benin don't need to explain or prove the greatness of Benin Kingdom because the impact of Benin is still felt till today even in Yorubalands unlike you Yorubas that will continue to explain and lie and distort history inorder to gain historical relevance which you do not have. Every evidence you have provided only shows one thing and that is that Yoruba history is filled with myths and speculation.. There is no detailed account of Ife history, not even of Oranmiyan till his sojourn in Benin. The only accounts (even the myths) of Ife is always about its supposed relationship to Benin Kingdom.
Benin (Igodomigodo) predates Ife and is greater than Ife. That is a known fact.[/s]

Sha no go commit suicide oo.

Anyways, every sane and stable mind knows that they will rather go with my evidence-based conclusion (which is based simply on the submission of historians with full historical referencing).

Than to even read your gibberish rants which is simply a product of your wild emotional imagination with not even one tiny shred of academic historical referencing.

Indeed, truth is bitter!





Before you go, there is one last one I'm currently typing up oo --- The Ogane.

No go commit suicide oo.

TAO11:


Sha no go commit suicide oo.

Anyways, every sane and stable mind knows that they will rather go with my evidence-based conclusion (which is based simply on the submission of historians with full historical referencing).

Than to even read your gibberish rants which is simply a product of your wild emotional imagination with not even one tiny shred of academic historical referencing.

Indeed, truth is bitter!





Before you go, there is one last one I'm currently typing up oo --- The Ogane.

No go commit suicide oo.

Lol abi Na u Dey sweat for brain from trying to come up with stories that don’t touch.

I wonder what you are trying desperately to prove. If you are talking about Benin kings being buried at Ife, it’s a story everyone already heard and also heard Benin denying such claims overtime so you are doing nothing new.

If you are trying to prove Ife was greater than Benin then don’t waste your time. People you are trying to convince are witnesses to the impact of Benin power and rule over their societies and they will be the first to tell you benin was greater than Ife.

So keep up your charade, at best you are entertaining us.

davidnazee:


[s]Lol abi Na u Dey sweat for brain from trying to come up with stories that don’t touch.
I wonder what you are trying desperately to prove. If you are talking about Benin kings being buried at Ife, it’s a story everyone already heard and also heard Benin denying such claims overtime so you are doing nothing new.
If you are trying to prove Ife was greater than Benin then don’t waste your time. People you are trying to convince are witnesses to the impact of Benin power and rule over their societies and they will be the first to tell you benin was greater than Ife.
So keep up your charade, at best you are entertaining us.[/s]

Why are you making me beleive that you feel very, very pained by something??

If you want me to take you serious going forward, then always cite experts, scholars, historians, academics.

Don't just say things like "its a known fact" and then expect everyone to nod their head in agreement without asking you for evidence and proof.

This is not Benin kingdom where more than 90% of the populace are morons --- of course with the exception of our Ife dynasty there.


I may be forced to ask you to go away and let your elders talk to me if you don't comply with the request above.


Peace!

According to d'Aveiros (c.1480) in the recenssion of de Barros (1552), the Ogane was "the most powerful MONARCH".

From the Portuguese account, it is clear that no amount of paid Benin propaganda can twist anything to mean priest.

It clearly says "monarch" --- that is, king.

Moving on --- The account says the following about this "most powerful monarch":

(1) He is known (at least) in Benin kingdom as the Ogane.

(2) His kingdom is to the east of Benin kingdom.

(3) His kingdom is some 20 'months'' journey away "because of the slow pace" travel.

(4) He sends (to Benin kingdom) a small shiny brass cross, a shiny brass helmet, among other things, as a confirmation of the new incoming Oba of Benin.


(a) Who then is the Ogane of the Portuguese text?

(b) Have historians ever attempted identifying who he actually is?

(c) Or have they simply left the issue untouched for Nairalanders to figure out?

The answers to the questions (b) and (c) appear to be the most obvious.

And the answers are Yes and No respectively.

In fact, historians have long debated each other on the identity of the Ogane.

For example, Ryder (1965) opined that the kingdom of the Ogane is "most probably" in the Niger-Benue confluence --- a location in the eastern side of Benin.

He himself quickly noted the setback in his own probabilistic conclusion by stating that: "Many objections may be raised against such an argument, the most cogent being those which demostrate the well known links between Benin and Ife."
--- Ryder, (1965), p.35.

Fast forward from the 1960s to our present time:

Have historians now settled this debate and come to a conclusion on the identity of this Ogane?

And this answer is yes!

Th historian, Adam Knobler (2016) points out this contemporary scholarly consensus as shown in the attachments below:

Having seen the contemporary scholarly submission (in our present time) on the identity of the Ogane in the Portuguese text, one may be then be curious to know how scholars came to resolve the dilema points (1) to (4) --- especially point (2) which talks about "east".

See next comment.

cc: OgboAto MetaPhysical

As has been shown, scholars in our present times have established definitively that the Ogane is none other than the Ooni of Ife.

But for the sake of curiosity, I will be examining how the puzzles from (1) to (4) (especially (2) which says the Ogane lives to the east of Benin kingdom) was resolved.

For (1):
Ogané is the Portuguese rendering of the actual indigenous Benin word to describe this "most powerful monarch."

In other words a certain name in Edo language ("??" ) became rendered in Portuguese as "Ogane".

Another example of European rendering is a Latin rendering of this same indigenous Benin word as Orguene, as seen on a 1525 map of Africa.

So what actually is the indigenous Benin word which is rendered in Portuguese and Latin as Ogane and Orguene??

By paying a special careful attention to the sounds, the Bini word Oghene seems to be the most plausible original Bini word which the Europeans attempted to render in their own tongues.

But did the ancient Binis ever use the word "Oghene" in relation to the "Ooni of Ife"??

The answer is a loud YES.

Starting with the most recent of the two evidences I will cite to prove this foregoing claim:

(a) In his "May 2004 The Benin-Ife Comnection", Omo N'Oba Erediauwa I noted emphatically that Oduduwa (who was the Ooni of Ife during his days) was known by the Benin people as Oghene n'Uhe.

Refer to the link below for "Oghene n'Uhe" in Oba Erediauwa II's May 2004 work: https://www.edo-nation.net/erediauwa1.htm

(b) Citing different instances of Ife's political influence as exercised through the Ifa cult, Robin Horton alludes to a Benin tradition in his 1979 "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment" as follows:

"Yet another tradition, this time from Benin, tells how the oracle of the Oghene of Uhe ("Oni of Ife" ) forewarned the Oba of Benin of impending calamity a few years before the disastrous encounter with the British."

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol 9. No. 4 (June 1979), p.124.


It therefore becomes clear at this point that the "Ooni of Ife" was known in ancient Benin as "Oghene" --- a 'name' which in European rendering became Ogane, Orguene, etc.


What about other three dilemas?? See next comments.

cc: OgboAto MetaPhysical

I'm reserving point (2) till the end for deliberate reasons.

For (4):
Is there any surviving evidence anywhere today (in Ife or Benin) which shows (or even indicate) that ancient Ife did indeed send brass crosses or brass helmet to Benin kingom??

And the answer is YES!

In as recent as the 1920s, Ward-Price visiting Oba Eweka II documented about a small piece of brass cross which this Oba uses in a special daily sacred devotion in connection with the Ooni of Ife (and Yoruba land more generally).

Ward-Price noted that the Oba took him into a narrow room in the palace. He noted that the room has a tall window at an end.

Refer to the 1st attachment below for some details of what he was told by the Oba during this sight seeing tour of the palace.

The tradition of brass crosses therefore becomes reasonably established from this daily practice in which Oba Eweka II connects the use of one of such crosses to someone whom he named to Ward-Price as the "Oghene ("Ooni" ) of Ife".

Regarding the shiny brass helmet, a number of such helmet have been recovered in our present times from Benin kingdom by art historians.

Can you guess the names these helmet (recovered from Benin kingdom) are known by till date even by experts too?

They are known as Oduduwa helmets, and many of them date to many centuries ago.

Refer to the 2nd attachment below to see what one of them look like.

Notice the accompanying annotation:

"An Oduduwa helmet mask ... from Benin ..."

Moving on to the next two dilema points.

OgboAto MetaPhysical gomojam macof

TAO,
You have done excellently well on these threads.

Here is Dmitri Bondarenko...

MetaPhysical:
TAO,
You have done excellently well on these threads.

Here is Dmitri Bondarenko...

I didn't even know that he mentioned the Orun Oba Ado topic sha, and I have the work.

Thanks for sharing!

I have started the Ogane issue. And it's the Ooni of Ife (not Igbo or Igala kings) as established by historians.

Read along, bro and share.

TAO11:


I didn't even know that he mentioned the Orun Oba Ado topic sha, and I have the work.

Thanks for sharing!

I have started the Ogane issue. And it's the Ooni of Ife not Igbo kings as established by historians.

Read along, bro and share.

Yes, I know without doubt this was all in reference to Ife.

What is striking is all the writers on Benin agreed the Oba has a superior....whether they associate it to Ife, to Nupe/Igala or to Ibo.

That thread was to highlight East and its possibilities in advantage back to Ife.

Catherine Acholonu emphasized Oduduwa as the Idu of creation, the divine-King, as told by narratives of Great Benin classics.


So even if I point to East and Ibo country as the superior monarch mentioned.....there are classical history there to loop and acknowledge superiority and pre-Eminence of Ife.


I believe even Thornton, or perharps Ryder mentioned that even the Northern Arabs, Ibn Batutta specifically, recognized Nyffe (Iffe/Ife) as most powerful and most recognized King-Priest of the region.

No account has ever said Ooni reported to a superior....unlike Benin which every chronicler indeed said was inferior to another king.
This is key!

For (3):
The Portuguese account says that the Ogane's kingdom is "some 20 moons" walking distance away from Benin kingdom because of "slow pace" travel.

Is Ife actually some 20 moons' walking distance away from Benin kingdom at some olden days "slow pace" ??

Here, there is a natural temptation to attempt determining the walking duration between Benin and Ife using Google maps.

The consequent error from this temptation would result from the fact that walking durations on Google maps are based on assumptions that become less realistic the longer distances get.

For example, Google maps will not factor-in the "slow-pace" which the Portuguese account clearly acknowledges.

It will not consider how many stops were made, and how many days were spent camping or resting for each stop.

It simply assumes a quite rapid constant pace of continous, no pause, non-stop movement, come rain-come shine, come day-come night, without sleep, without rest, through out the entire lenght of the trip.

This is obviously very impracticable. In fact, Google maps always warn, even for very short distances saying: "Use caution --- walking directions may not always reflect real-world conditions."

The blatant error inherent in an attempt to use Google maps to answer the earlier raised question thus becomes very obvious.

To then answer the earlier raised question quite correctly, it is important that one first determines what may have been the pace of long walking trip traditionally in this part of the world.

A piece of data which I find very useful to find this traditional pace is seen in C. Okojie cited in Ryder (1965), p.27.

He noted that it traditionally took from 4months to 6months to complete a walking trip from Uromi (Ishan) to Benin-City --- a distance of some 50miles.

Based on the foregoing highly invaluable piece of data given by Okojie, alongside the well-known distance betwen Benin and Ife (i.e.about 171miles); we can therefore estimate the duration it must have traditionally taken (in months) to journey from Benin to Ife.

Calculation:
--------------------
(a) IF Ishan and Benin which are
about 50miles apart took about 5months long traditionally.

(b) THEN Benin and Ife which are about 171miles apart would have taken about (171÷50)×5months long traditionally.

When evaluated, this walking duration from Benin to Ife, based on the available traditional data came to more than 17months.

In fact, to be very strict with the numbers it can be demostrated that 17months is precisely equivalent to 19moons.

Calculation:
--------------------
(a) Typically, 1month contains 30.417days.

Therefore, 17months have 517.089days in it typically.

How many moons, therefore, are there in 517.089days??

To answer this correctly, the number of days in one moon must first be established.

(b) Typically, 1moon contains 27.322days.

Based on this, the number of moons in 517.089days is equal to (517.089÷27.322)moons --- that is, 19moons.

In other words, 17months is equivalent to 19moons.


In sum, the "traditional" duration of just over 19 moons which it takes to journey from Benin Kingdom to Ife therefore comes to precisely match the some 20 moons' journey of the Portuguese document.


For dilema (2) about "east", see next comment.

OgboAto MetaPhysical gomojam macof

davidnazee:


Please where is the picture of the burial sites or graves and what evidence is there that says it was Benin kings buried there?
Do you know that the same historians you quote also agrees that the institution of kingship in Benin is older than that of Ile-Ife or other Yoruba states.. so how can Ife be older or greater than Benin?
continue your bad work of revisionist, it doesn't change a thing or place Ife above Benin..

Outside of your non-historian king & a few fancy writers from the 70s, no historian has ever pursued any argument along that line. If you knew how research worked then you would know not to make this false statement.

Since the 50s, international & local historians/archeologists have researched Ife [& Bini] at length. And not even those with the hypothesis of Bini's independence from Ife were able to find just one tiny bit of evidence anywhere to support their angle. Have you ever wondered why your Bini Ekaledehan story is never cited by anyone?

And because learning is a continuum, please cite 5 historians that have argued the emboldened in your post.

MetaPhysical:


Yes, I know without doubt this was all in reference to Ife.

What is striking is all the writers on Benin agreed the Oba has a superior....whether they associate it to Ife, to Nupe/Igala or to Ibo.

That thread was to highlight East and its possibilities in advantage back to Ife.

Catherine Acholonu emphasized Oduduwa as the Idu of creation, the divine-King, as told by narratives of Great Benin classics.


So even if I point to East and Ibo country as the superior monarch mentioned.....there are classical history there to loop and acknowledge superiority and pre-Eminence of Ife.


I believe even Thornton, or perharps Ryder mentioned that even the Northern Arabs, Ibn Batutta specifically, recognized Nyffe (Iffe/Ife) as most powerful and most recognized King-Priest of the region.

No account has ever said Ooni reported to a superior....unlike Benin which every chronicler indeed said was inferior to another king.
This is key!

Isn't Nyfe some other name used for Nupe/Tapa?

Regarding dilema (2) which says that the Kingdom of the Ogane is to the "east" of Benin kingdom.

This is about the most puzzling for historians. But it turns out in the end to be the most obvious and the simplest of all.

Ile-Ife is famous and well known in ancient times (and in present times as well) by the epithet --- "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá".

This is the simple and straightforward solution to the "east" dilema in the Portuguese account.

This is especially considering the fact that every other detail in the account regarding the Ogane checks out perfectly only with the Ooni of Ife.

Also, every attempt to find this Ogane in the actual geographical east have proven futile and absurd.

Now what then does this epithet of Ife actually translate to, and how does it resolve the "east" dilema??

In its baisic literal sense, this epithet of Ife namely: "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá" simply describes Ife as: "The place from where daylight shines forth."

Put differently, it translates as: The place from where the sun rises.

Every Yoruba kingdom whether to the eastern side or to the western side of Ife knows Ife by this epithet.

And to be sure that this was not merely made up in recent times --- by historians --- in the course of resolving the "east" dilema, the following piece of historcal informatiom sheds some light:

The first Christian missionary to visit Ife in the 1850s, David Hinderer alludes to this epithet of Ife in his account. He wrote:

"Ife is famous as being the seat of idolatry; all the multiple idols of this part of the country are said to emanate from this town; from there the sun and moon rises where they are buried in the ground, and all people of this country and even white men spring from thks town."

Reference:
David Hinderer, "Diaries," Ibadan, Christian Missionary Society (CMS), quoted in I. A. Akinjogbin, ed., The Cradle of a Race: Ile-Ife from the Beginning to 1980, PortHarcourt, Sunray Publications, 1992, xi.

Although this epithet of Ife is not necessarily scientifically and geographically accurate from all geographical sides of Ife, the local people have a strong and firm belief in it nevertheless.

In fact, I. A. Akinjogbin and others have opined that this unanimous strong belief in an epithet of Ife which is obviously scientifically inaccurate, must have --- in the earliest times --- originally had a functional meaning which is simply to the effect that Ife is the place from where culture and civilization spread to other lands.

The fact that this literal epithet of Ife (as the place from where the sun rises) is also known in ancient Benin kingdom, is quite evident in the earlier cited documentation by Ward-Price.

Oba Eweka II notes that he must wait for the first rays of the sun to shine forth before he proceeds to begin his sacred devotion which he obviously connects back to the "Oghene of Ife."

His consistent daily connection of the first rays of the sun with Ife/Yorubaland (despite the geography being opposite) is obviously not unintentional.

It clearly relates to the ancient epithet of Ife as the place from where sunlight shines forth. See the attachment again for a reminder.

In light of the foregoing, it becomes clear where the "east" in d'Aveiros account sprang from in relation to the kingdom of the Oghene or Ogane.

The “East” of the early accounts is clearly in reference to the religious epithets of Ife as the place from where the sun rises.

cc: OgboAto MetaPhysical macof gomojam

OgboAto:


His is not true. Did you know that everything that has formed the basis of historical, art & archeological studies of Bini had origins in Ile-Ife that is Bini indigenous political syst

Outside of your non-historian king & a few fancy writer from the 70s, no historian has ever pursued along that line. If you kew how research worked then you would know not to make this false statement.

Since the 50s, international & local historians/archeologists have researched Ife [& Bini] at length. And not even those with the hypothesis of Bini's superiority were able to find just one tiny bit of evidence anywhere to support their angle. Have you ever wondered why your Bini Ekaledehan story is ever cited by anyone?

And because learning is a continuum, please cite 5 historians that have argued the emboldened in your post.

That boy has no clue what he is talking about oo.

He's just emotionally charged.

If he cites one thing, I will bend.

Metaphysical,

Whilst I don't intend to carry on with the debate but I just came across what you posted below claiming Idu to be Igbo Eri.

Are the Igbos also claiming Benin the way Yorubas are doing.

Are any Igbos in the house to throw more light on this.

You have also suggested that the Oba Benin of was probably under Nupe/Igala king.

So far, you have claimed Benin for Nupe/Igala, Yoruba and now Igbo.

This Benin everyone from the North, East and West are scrambling to have, most be very special.

Please if you have any more reference of Hausa Fulani claiming Benin, also post it here, I don't see why they should be left out of this scrambling.

Benin is the beautiful bride for all to scramble for, it should be a thing of joy to the Benins that so much is being said and written about their history.

The only sad part is instead of all embracing it as a Nigeria achievements, the way Europe embraces Rome and Greek, different tribes are trying to steal it to themselves rather than share it with the Benins as a common Nigeria heritage.

I sometimes wonders what none Nigerians feel when they read all these.

A Benin man says that the Benin Moat is the greatest man made structure on planet earth according to Guinness book of world records, a Yoruba man will reply with, the Yorubas built it, the Nupe/Igala king send his people to build it or maybe it's was the Igbos that built it.

Why is it that the Yorubas didn't build similar structures or any structure that is internationally acclaimed to be the greatest man made structure on the planet, 4 times the great wall of China and greater than the pyramids of Egypt in Yoruba land like the Benin walls?

When the Benins point to their artworks that adores museums across the world from Australia, Canada, Europe, America and other part of the world, the Yorubas will say it's them that taught the Benins how to make them, or maybe it was the Igalas or Igbos.

Why is it that the Ife artworks don't adore museums across the world like Benin artworks?

When the Benins point to the bight of Benin as a mark of it's greatness, the Yorubas will say republic of Benin/Dahomey was an extension of Ife and was ruled by the Oyo empire.

Why is it that republic of Benin is not called republic of Ife or Oyo?

All these, show the division we continue to experience as a country daily.

Why can't we all share Benin achievements and history as one common heritage without trying to fabricate it.

Why can't we all share and enjoy the music of Davido, Timaya, Flavour etc as one Nigeria without bordering on the ethnicities of these artists

Why can't will enjoy Nollywood movie without seeing it as Igbo movies because must of the actors and actresses are of the Igbo tribe.

Why can't we enjoy and share Nigeria comedy without seeing it as a Delta state thing.

We as people have a long way to go, sometimes, I don't blame the Biafrans that want to run out.


Below is the evidence of Igbo claiming Benin, posted by Metaphysical. Read and enjoy.

MetaPhysical:
TAO,
You have done excellently well on these threads.

Here is Dmitri Bondarenko...

Re: Is This Not AROCHUKWU KINGS? Who Is OGANE To The East Of Bini? by MetaPhysical: 2:00am
Here it is in a clearer text -


Linguists and historians agree that the Niger-Benue river valley was the origin of the dispersal of the Kwa language group of the original Niger-Congo linguistic group of West Africa. Since the Bantu group of languages are dispersed from South-Eastern Nigeria, it stands to reason that Bantu was a child of the Kwa language; and that the Niger-Benue was the center of dispersal of the Niger-Congo languages. Ifi Amadiume argues in African Matriarchal Foundations that the Egyptian civilization was an offshoot of this indigeneous West African civilization, and that numerous examples of Igbo cognates in a wide range of Bantu languages support the thesis of an Igbo/South-Eastern Nigerian origin of the Bantu languages. Eri/Idu was the representative of God on Earth.

The fact that Eri/Idu was the great potentate of the Niger Congo/Niger-Benue civilization that grew out of post-deluge Nigeria, is confirmed by the Benin/Edo records of the deluge as narrated in Osaren Omoregie's Great Benin classics. In Great Benin, the oral traditions of the Edo people of Nigeria claims that a post-deluge civilization established , nurtured and upheld by Idu, the survivor of the deluge was located near the waters of the River Niger, then known as Ohinmwi, or Great River. In this Edo/Benin story, the flood which submerged all habitable lands was called Iso Norho. God (Oghene) after saving Iduu/Idu from the floods piled up sand and ceated a plateau on which he ordered Idu to build a temple with a high tower. Idu did as he was told and subsequently became the great representative of God on earth. Idu was the first high priest of God, king and way-shower all combined. He established the first shrine/temple for the worship of the Supreme Being, and it became the first city - a divine palace of God, the first human habitation. "He chose a place at the crest of the territory and mustered the efforts of the people to build a palace for Oghene there. He himself lived there, and he became known as the people's earthly Oghene. Where the palace was built was called Uduwa and he himself was called Oduduwa. ...Oduduwa, Idu, Oghene of Uhe".

Idu/Eri as the representative of God on earth is in consonance with Thoth being the representative of the Dweller on earth: "Emissary on earth am I of the Dweller". The fact that the Yoruba tribe of the Kwa linguistic group claims that the ancestral founder of their tribe was a person called Oduduwa implies that they too were among the descendants of Iduu/Eri. Not only was Iduu the representative of God on earth, he was also revered as the one who received from God/Oghene the power to rule the world and stabilize it. In the Great Benin myth Idu is also called by the divine title Erinmwidu (equivalent Igbo expression: Eri wu Idu) - "Eri is Idu". This title indicates that Eri is the very person whom the Edo tribe calls Idu.

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TAO11:


Where is the picture of your brain??

No picture --- then no brain for yoh!!


Anyways, sane and sensible people know that articles published in journals of archaeology, etc. are authoritative even if written in words.

I have been cited authoritative journals with detailed reference and links to the materials with page number. But you're dead-scared to open and read.

Get yourself "Queen Primer" it has pictures and text. Start learning to read from there.

I hope you won't comit suicide sha.

Truth is bitter, I understand.

Lol, are truly a female, you look so bitter

I wanna hookup with you i wanna see the face behind this moniker before i can fully understand the reason for your relentlessness even in the face of defeat

gregyboy:

[s]Lol, are truly a female, you look so bitter
I wanna hookup with you i wanna see the face behind this moniker before i can fully understand the reason for your relentlessness even in the face of defeat[/s]

You want to kill me for exposing lies??

Benin never had any relationship with ife

TAO11:

You want to kill me for exposing lies??

Lol, you mean your lies....

You go be fine lady but your heart is dark

gregyboy:



[s]Lol, you mean your lies....
You go be fine lady but your heart is dark[/s]

Benin lies...
My heart is dark for exposing Benin lies??
Is that how it works in Benin kingdom??

gregyboy:



Lol, are truly a female, you look so bitter

I wanna hookup with you i wanna see the face behind this moniker before i can fully understand the reason for your relentlessness even in the face of defeat

Which defeat? Audio defeat?
Ashewo You wanna bribe and shut her up through marriage. Tao11 is a beautiful Yoruba lady who can make even you start publishing the true history ----- YORUBA OVERLORDSHIP OVER BENIN ----- like Egharevba of blessed memory had rightfully done because of her beauty. She is so smart though, you may never get to touch her even with a totem pole.

TAO11:


Sha no go commit suicide oo.

Anyways, every sane and stable mind knows that they will rather go with my evidence-based conclusion (which is based simply on the submission of historians with full historical referencing).

Than to even read your gibberish rants which is simply a product of your wild emotional imagination with not even one tiny shred of academic historical referencing.

Indeed, truth is bitter!





Before you go, there is one last one I'm currently typing up oo --- The Ogane.

No go commit suicide oo.

Damn!

gomojam:
Which defeat? Audio defeat?
Ashewo You wanna bribe and shut her up through marriage. Tao11 is a beautiful Yoruba lady who can make even you start publishing the true history ----- YORUBA OVERLORDSHIP OVER BENIN ----- like Egharevba of blessed memory had rightfully done. She is so smart though, you may never get to touch her even with a totem pole.

Sicko

I bet you are peddling your way into her abode and that's why your are following her sheeplessly