₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
You have argued that an Angel can be called God BUT can an angel be called JEHOVAH?

Exodus 23:20,21

" See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. "

What does the highlighted tells you ? When acting as representative. They bear the name

rottennaija:
You submission is not worth a response.

I know Sir, that's why i've been trying to help my brothers reciprocate in the same calm manner that you've been asking your questions.
But i'm not expecting any response from you, I can grasp what is happening right now! Isaiah 54:17 compare to Matthew 22:46

Maximus69:
I know Sir, that's why i've been trying to help my brothers reciprocate in the same calm manner that you've been asking your questions.
But i'm not expecting any response from you, I can grasp what is happening right now! Isaiah 54:17 compare to Matthew 22:46

You grasp nothing Maximus69. And you know nothing Maximus69.

rottennaija:
You grasp nothing Maximus69. And you know nothing Maximus69.

Hmmmmmmmm, i agree with you 100% Sir!
But am i steal permitted to continue typing?

Maximus69:
Hmmmmmmmm, i agree with you 100% Sir!
But am i steal permitted to continue typing?

Sure you are.

rottennaija:
Sure you are.

God bless you Sir!

rottennaija:
Please tell me. I studied engineering. What is anthropomorphism and how does it relate to what John saw. Did John see a horse or a spirit horse or what?

Horse are earthly ... They dont exist until God created them on planet earth.

Anthropomorphism means giving human features to Non human persons. Its humans that ride horse on earth, but such attributes were given to non humans.

I repeat again: the ones called Humans are flesh and Bone's ( Genesis 5:2). So there is nothing like human spirit being. Its an oxymoron

rottennaija:
You still dodge the question, what did John see? what are horses? Are they animals or angel or humans or spirit beings? Do they have skeletal structures that would support sitting on and racing?

What John described is an anthropormophism.

Peacefullove:
What John described is an anthropormophism.

John describes anthropomorphism? Please highlight the anthropomorphism in this verse and the un-anthropomorphism for me my IQ person

Revelation 19:14 ESV
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses

Revelation 19:11-14 ESV
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses

I want to learn from you

Peacefullove:
When Angels act on behalf of the most high, they deliver messages in his name. The point am driving at is anytime Jesus, Angels or anyone else except the Father are called God in capital letters, its because they are acting as Gods representative.

" For us, there is ONE GOD, The Father " 1Cor 8:5,6

True, God even made Moses as God to Pharaoh. Exodus7:1

Peacefullove:
Horse are earthly ... They dont exist until God created them on planet earth.

Anthropomorphism means giving human features to Non human persons. Its humans that ride horse on earth, but such attributes were given to non humans.

I repeat again: the ones called Humans are flesh and Bone's ( Genesis 5:2). So there is nothing like human spirit being. Its an oxymoron

So what are those horses seen by John? Or did John not see it? Or is he also giving non animal things animal attributes?

rottennaija:
John describes anthropomorphism? Please highlight the anthropomorphism in this verse and the un-anthropomorphism for me my IQ person

Revelation 19:14 ESV
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses

Revelation 19:11-14 ESV
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses

I want to learn from you

Horses there ain't real . Genesis 1:30 says their habitat is earth. ..

"
and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.


You can now tell me Horses die and go to heaven .

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Peacefullove:
Exodus 23:20,21

" See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. "

What does the highlighted tells you ? When acting as representative. They bear the name

So, my name is in him means he now bears my name!? SMH!

To you, it means that the Angel is now Jehovah!? Or that the Angels name can now be called Jehovah!?

My friend, an angel remain an angel and can never be called Jehovah!

2Ths 1:12:
"That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
According to you: Means we are now by nomenclature Jesus Christ!?

Rev 3:12:
"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [/b]which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name."
And so according to you, all who are saved will become by nomenclature Jehovah!?

[b]Rev 14:1:
"And I looked, and, see, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
And so according to you, the 144,000 became by nomenclature Jehovah!?

How come you can't say exactly as the NWT put it?

It would have been nice if you had answered the questions below rather than struggling like a drowning man

shadeyinka:
Of course two of the three personalities were Angels. These were the ones that went to Sodom and rescued Lot.
Gen 18:22 NWT
22 Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham.

Please according to NTW, who remained with Abraham?

Gen 18:22 NWT
33 When Jehovah finished speaking to Abraham, he went his way and Abraham returned to his place

According to NWT, who went his way after speaking with Abraham?

Your argument holds no water!

Let's look at your NWT together and answer the attending question

Gen18:1 NWT
1 Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹreb while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during thehottest part of the day.

According to NWT, who appeared to Abraham?

Gen18:2-3 NWT
2 He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. 3 Then he said: " Jehovah , if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant

According to NWT what name did Abraham call one of the three men?

Gen18:13 NWT
13 Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Am I really going to give birth even though I am old?’

According to NWT, who asked the question "why did Sarah laugh...?"


Compare your rhetorics with:
Is42:8 NWT
8 I am Jehovah . That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.

And you think your argument doesn't contradict

Is42:8 NWT
8 I am Jehovah . That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.

rottennaija:
So what are those horses seen by John? Or did John not see it? Or is he also giving non animal things animal attributes?

Horse riding is an human attribute. This is why I ask you to study anthropomorphism . so when animals die, they go to heaven?

shadeyinka:
To you, it means that the Angel is now Jehovah!? Or that the Angels name can now be called Jehovah!?

My friend, an angel remain an angel is an angel and can never be called Jehovah!

2Ths 1:12:
"That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
According to you: Means we are now by nomenclature Jesus Christ!?

Rev 3:12:
"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [/b]which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name."
And so according to you, all who are saved will become by nomenclature Jehovah!?

[b]Rev 14:1:
"And I looked, and, see, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
And so according to you, the 144,000 became by nomenclature Jehovah!?

How come you can't say exactly as the NWT put it?

It would have been nice if you had answered the questions below rather than struggling like a drowning man


And you think your argument doesn't contradict

Is42:8 NWT
8 I am Jehovah . That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.

Moses at the burning bush.

Who was called Jehovah?

Three men came to Abram. We later saw that two (or the three according to JW doctrine) of these men were Angels.
JW interpretations:
Therefore, the Angels are actually Human Beings
Christian interpretation
Therefore, the men are actually Angels

I know that you will scream foul: but aren't you using the same argument in the question you posted.

Peacefullove:
Moses at the burning bush.

Who was called Jehovah?

Unlike you who would rather dodge scriptural questions. Your NWT actually clarifies it for you.


Exodus3:1-22 NWT
3 Moses became a shepherd of the flock of his father-in-law Jethʹro,a the priest of Midʹi·an. While he was leading the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he eventually came to the mountain of the true God, to Horʹeb.
2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, he saw that the thornbush was on fire, and yet the thornbush was not consumed.
3 So Moses said: “I will go over to inspect this unusual sight to see why the thornbush does not burn up.”
4 When Jehovah saw that he went over to look, God called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.”
5 Then he said: “Do not come any nearer. Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 He went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the true God.
7 Jehovah added: “I have certainly seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry because of those who force them to work; I well know the pains they suffer.

I think you have been answered. Moses was afraid to look at the true God. Is an Angel the true God?

Why do you think the bible didn't say:
And the Angel spoke to Moses....?

Now, according to NWTwho spoke to Moses?
Was it the Angel or was it Jehovah?

Peacefullove:
Horse riding is an human attribute. This is why I ask you to study anthropomorphism . so when animals die, they go to heaven?

Lol... Suddenly, the almighty IQ Peacefullove is dumb. Arguing from human attributes of riding horses to animal dying and going to heaven. I know your problem, it's not just problem but that of all JWs.

My dear, what are horses? Are the spirit being? Animals? Humans? What are horses? I understand the difficulties in simply saying horses are animals because they will destroy the superstructure of the arguments you built since.

Please my knowledgeable IQ Peacefullove, is apostle John lying that on what he saw so that he would use anthropomorphism to describe it? Or can we just say he describes fictions which doesn't exist?

Rozz:
So JW is an organization meant for married people only,i didn't know before,but I do see young people who are JW

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I said you must be Happily married i mean there is no room for bearing children out of wedlock and expecting JWs to give the person any regard!

Our kingdom hall is open to everyone but the truth is there is stigmatism against some kind of people.

So to feel free in our midst you must be fully prepared to live by the standard that's why you're seeing all these criticism, they don't want the standard so they can just walk in, worship with God's people and get recognized then take their leave anytime they feel like to go and worship elsewhere.

In that setting they can marry from our midst and do whatever they like only to run and join another Church after they've committed serious blunders. But with the way Jehovah's Organization is arranged, they can't be recognized as worshipers of our God if they're not totally submissive to the standard!

rottennaija:
So what are those horses seen by John? Or did John not see it? Or is he also giving non animal things animal attributes?

Visions are meant to be INTERPRETED!

The creatures doesn't literally mean that's what Jesus was revealing to us through John!

@ Act 10:9-16 Peter saw the heavens open and animals that God warned Israelites in the law not to eat were placed before him to kill and eat, but Peter kept saying "NO" until the sheet was taken away from him!

Please what was the outcome?

Nobody brought any unclean animal for Peter to kill for food, rather it was Cornelius that was brought before Peter! Act 10:30-35

God bless you!

shadeyinka:
Three men came to Abram. We later saw that two (or the three according to JW doctrine) of these men were Angels.
JW interpretations:
Therefore, the Angels are actually Human Beings
Christian interpretation
Therefore, the men are actually Angels

This is what often cause amusement!
See the way you grouped over 41,000 different religions under one umbrella as if they're all in agreement over what you're saying!
As if we should quote this verse to all the church leaders in your streets they will all agree with your interpretation!

Meanwhile you got it wrong Sir, JWs believe the three are angels, i said so in the last post!

I think you have been answered. Moses was afraid to look at the true God. Is an Angel the true God?

Jehovah's name is upon his representative so whatever you do to Jehovah's angel, you are doing it to Jehovah. Jesus (God's son) applied this same concept, remember that the group name Christian means "little Christ" so we know what we are saying! Matthew 25:31-46

Why do you think the bible didn't say:
And the Angel spoke to Moses....?

Because the Bible is our book so we fully grasp the concept! Daniel 12:10

Now, according to NWTwho spoke to Moses?
Was it the Angel or was it Jehovah

It's Jehovah's angel Sir!
If it's about the fact that Moses couldn't look into the eyes of Jehovah's representative, remember that the Israelites also couldn't look at Moses's face at a point in time! Exodus 34:30

So anyone representating Jehovah to serve as the means by which Jehovah's will is to be carried out will also emit the same kind of powerful rays of light.

Jesus is the one Jehovah will use to resurrected the dead, for James Peter and John to realize this, Jesus' face and body began emitting rays of light during the transfiguration! Matthew 17:2

God bless you!

shadeyinka:
Three men came to Abram. We later saw that two (or the three according to JW doctrine) of these men were Angels.
JW interpretations:
Therefore, the Angels are actually Human Beings
Christian interpretation
Therefore, the men are actually Angels

I know that you will scream foul: but aren't you using the same argument in the question you posted.


Unlike you who would rather dodge scriptural questions. Your NWT actually clarifies it for you.


Exodus3:1-22 NWT
3 Moses became a shepherd of the flock of his father-in-law Jethʹro,a the priest of Midʹi·an. While he was leading the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he eventually came to the mountain of the true God, to Horʹeb.
2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, he saw that the thornbush was on fire, and yet the thornbush was not consumed.
3 So Moses said: “I will go over to inspect this unusual sight to see why the thornbush does not burn up.”
4 When Jehovah saw that he went over to look, God called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.”
5 Then he said: “Do not come any nearer. Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 He went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the true God.
7 Jehovah added: “I have certainly seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry because of those who force them to work; I well know the pains they suffer.

I think you have been answered. Moses was afraid to look at the true God. Is an Angel the true God?

Why do you think the bible didn't say:
And the Angel spoke to Moses....?

Now, according to NWTwho spoke to Moses?
Was it the Angel or was it Jehovah?

Who told you that?

JWs believe Abraham entertained angels!

TATIME:
Who told you that?

JWs believe Abraham entertained angels!

I know, but your arguments have been very similar. That Jehovah cannot manifest as a man nor angel to His savants yet you easily believe that the reverse is possible an Angel can play God!

TATIME:
Who told you that?

JWs believe Abraham entertained angels!

I know, but your arguments have been very similar. That Jehovah cannot manifest as a man nor angel to His savants yet you easily believe that the reverse is possible an Angel can play God!

I showed you what the NWT says but your indoctrination is too deep for you to see that no being (not man and not any angel) can assume the name of Jehovah other than Himself.

Maximus69:
This is what often cause amusement!
See the way you grouped over 41,000 different religions under one umbrella as if they're all in agreement over what you're saying!
As if we should quote this verse to all the church leaders in your streets they will all agree with your interpretation!

Meanwhile you got it wrong Sir, JWs believe the three are angels, i said so in the last post!


Jehovah's name is upon his representative so whatever you do to Jehovah's angel, you are doing it to Jehovah. Jesus (God's son) applied this same concept, remember that the group name Christian means "little Christ" so we know what we are saying! Matthew 25:31-46


Because the Bible is our book so we fully grasp the concept! Daniel 12:10


It's Jehovah's angel Sir!
If it's about the fact that Moses couldn't look into the eyes of Jehovah's representative, remember that the Israelites also couldn't look at Moses's face at a point in time! Exodus 34:30

So anyone representating Jehovah to serve as the means by which Jehovah's will is to be carried out will also emit the same kind of powerful rays of light.

Jesus is the one Jehovah will use to resurrected the dead, for James Peter and John to realize this, Jesus' face and body began emitting rays of light during the transfiguration! Matthew 17:2

God bless you!

The illustration was used to show exactly how you JWs argue.

shadeyinka:
I know that you will scream foul: but aren't you using the same argument in the question you posted.

Read exactly what the NWT says and not your organisation's coloured interpretation.

Is that why you couldn't answer direct questions from your own NWT?

shadeyinka:
I know, but your arguments have been very similar. That Jehovah cannot manifest as a man nor angel to His savants yet you easily believe that the reverse is possible an Angel can play God!

I showed you what the NWT says but your indoctrination is too deep for you to see that no being (not man and not any angel) can assume the name of Jehovah other than Himself.

It often happens that way because Jehovah sometimes hypnotize the angel and makes a mouthpiece out of the spirit being, so in such cases the angel will speak as if Jehovah is speaking himself. But Jehovah only made use of the angel as his mouthpiece, that's why the arrangement for worship is strictly where and how Jehovah specifically direct us to offer it!
Pure worship:-
© Recipient must be JEHOVAH.
© Offering must be the best Quality.
© Manner must be according to rules.
© Motive must be pure.

All worshipers of Jehovah knows these four futures, so even when people call us Jehovah out there we won't argue with them because we know we are his Representatives, but when they try to worship us (for instance asking us to pray for them, we only teach them how to pray) we will tell them worship must be rendered to Jehovah alone, that's the import of Isaiah 42:8.

TATIME:
It often happens that way because Jehovah sometimes hypnotize the angel and makes a mouthpiece out of the spirit being, so in such cases the angel will speak as if Jehovah is speaking himself. But Jehovah only made use of the angel as his mouthpiece, that's why the arrangement for worship is strictly where and how Jehovah specifically direct us to offer it!
Pure worship:-
© Recipient must be JEHOVAH.
© Offering must be the best Quality.
© Manner must be according to rules.
© Motive must be pure.

All worshipers of Jehovah knows these four futures, so even when people call us Jehovah out there we won't argue with them because we know we are his Representatives, but when they try to worship us (for instance asking us to pray for them, we only teach them how to pray) we will tell them worship must be rendered to Jehovah alone, that's the import of Isaiah 42:8.

@Bolded will violate the fact that Angels are free beings (like humans).

Doesn't your argument not also violate.
Angels are separate beings and personalities from God. An angel cannot be called JEHOVAH.

Exodus20:1-26 NWT
1 Then God spoke all these words:
2 “I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 You must not have any other gods besides me.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form * like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion , bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Note the phrase:
Don't you think that God will not teach humans a special form of idolatry where an Angel is made to assume Jehovah to men?

ANYTHING that is in the heavens or on the earth...
Please note the Highlight.
Jehovah requires EXCLUSIVE (NWT) devotion from men.

Exclusive doesn't mean an angel is inclusive, does it?

shadeyinka:
The illustration was used to show exactly how you JWs argue.
Read exactly what the NWT says and not your organisation's coloured interpretation.
Is that why you couldn't answer direct questions from your own NWT?

It's a spiritual language that's fully understood by all those who come to learn it, so no matter how much you try to get the sense of it on your own you will only continue to agitate and agitate when those involved are worshiping together shoulder to shoulder as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers!

Please it's the patience to explain that may differ in each JW but one thing is certain, we all believe there must be one form of worship for one God!

Maximus69:
It's a spiritual language that's fully understood by all those who come to learn it, so no matter how much you try to get the sense of it on your own you will only continue to agitate and agitate when those involved are worshiping together shoulder to shoulder as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers!

Please it's the patience to explain that may differ in each JW but one thing is certain, we all believe there must be one form of worship for one God!

English language has become a spiritual language!?
Your spiritual language is one that rejects the written word (even from your NWT) in favour of your organisation's doctrine!?

No wonder, it is full of confusions and any word can be ignored as far as it isn't part of your indoctrination!?

shadeyinka:
@Bolded will violate the fact that Angels are free beings (like humans).

Doesn't your argument not also violate.
Angels are separate beings and personalities from God. An angel cannot be called JEHOVAH.

Exodus20:1-26 NWT
1 Then God spoke all these words:
2 “I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 You must not have any other gods besides me.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form * like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion , bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Note the phrase:
Don't you think that God will not teach humans a special form of idolatry where an Angel is made to assume Jehovah to men?

ANYTHING that is in the heavens or on the earth...
Please note the Highlight.
Jehovah requires EXCLUSIVE (NWT) devotion from men.

Exclusive doesn't mean an angel is inclusive, does it?

It's the worship that matters.

Jehovah's representatives only avail themselves so he could empower them to act in his behalf!

The angels speaking like Jehovah are his children as well so he use his power to make them speak in his behalf.

But nobody should WORSHIP them, only Jehovah is to be worshiped! Rev 4:11

shadeyinka:
English language has become a spiritual language!?
Your spiritual language is one that rejects the written word (even from your NWT) in favour of your organisation's doctrine!?

No wonder, it is full of confusions and any word can be ignored as far as it isn't part of your indoctrination!?

My friend, why are you so worried about this issue when those involved are united in FAITH globally? John 17:21-23

FULL OF CONFUSION you say, but that's the most ORGANIZED and ORDERLY group on this planet! Micah 4:1-3

Perhaps the English need to change the meaning of that word 'CONFUSION' to soothe your narrative Sir!

shadeyinka:
English language has become a spiritual language!?
Your spiritual language is one that rejects the written word (even from your NWT) in favour of your organisation's doctrine!?

No wonder, it is full of confusions and any word can be ignored as far as it isn't part of your indoctrination!?

Confusion connotes Misunderstanding!

Please if you find a group of people orderly and well organized but you can't grasp what they're saying, or why they're doing something in a way that seems strange, do you run to conclusion that they're actually confused?
Even when you can't find another orderly and organised group elsewhere!

TATIME:
Confusion connotes Misunderstanding!

Please if you find a group of people orderly and well organized but you can't grasp what they're saying, or why they're doing something in a way that seems strange, do you run to conclusion that they're actually confused?
Even when you can't find another orderly and organised group elsewhere!

I believe the English need to redefine the word "CONFUSION" to please Shadeyinka o!