PRE4:
Christians are never scared of atheists,and they will never argue for a long time with atheists.The fact that Christians dont argue with them gives them the aura of intellingence and impression that Christianity is built on clueless facts.
Mind you,Religion is different from christianity.It creates sense of division among religious fanatics who can do anything to defend their religion even to the extent of killing termed"Unbelievers".

Christianity means Christ pathway.This is not a religion but a lifestyle that every follow of Christ must exhibits.We dont kill or do any diabolical practice because our father was not ever spotted doing it.
Atheist telling Christians that God does not exists is likened to a person told that his father do not exist.
This atheism should be extincted because they failed to ask themselves"WHO CREATED ME"?.
If they are saying they transformed from apes,then who created those apes?
All those laws they quote were not meant to be if a great designer never initiated it.
THINK WELL.

If humans ask "who created me?" shouldn't God also ask who created him?

We don't need you to be afraid of us, we need you to think before you speak.

Kobojunkie:

Other believers? Did God command us to seek the counsel of these "other believers" before we accept what He commands or says?

I took those verses right from the Easy-to-Read Version of the Bible.

Doing God's will or accepting His commands is different from interpreting the scriptures. These are two different concepts.
And yes ,concerning understanding the scriptures,we learn from faithful witnesses who have come before us so that one day we can teach those who come after us. 2Timothy 2:2
It goes without saying though that ultimately Scripture properly interpreted is the final authority on all matters of faith. Not any body or organisation, hence why I wrote
jamesid29:
If you believe the orthodox reading is wrong(which is a possibility, as we learn everyday with new information), it would be great if you can work me through why you think your novel interpretation is correct..

I took those verses right from the Easy-to-Read Version of the Bible.

Quoting a scripture is different from interpreting it.
E=MC^2 means nothing except you tell me what it means and why it means what it means.
I'm asking you to show me how you arrived at your own interpretation and why it is truer to the Text as compared to the orthodox understanding of it.

jamesid29:

Doing God's will or accepting His commands is different from interpreting the scriptures. These are two different concepts.And yes ,concerning understanding the scriptures,we learn from faithful witnesses who have come before us so that one day we can teach those who come after us. 2Timothy 2:2

The reason I pick to post from the Easy-to-Read Version of the Bible is so as to both bypass and shove the "interpretation" Bull.Piss where it belongs, - simply read and understand what is written as it is written there in English as plain as day.

jamesid29:
It goes without saying though that ultimately Scripture properly interpreted is the final authority on all matters of faith. Not any body or organisation, hence why I wrote
jamesid29:
If you believe the orthodox reading is wrong(which is a possibility, as we learn everyday with new information), it would be great if you can work me through why you think your novel interpretation is correct..

I keep expecting a straightforward answer from you...

Jeremiah 31 vs 31-34
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31. This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah. 32. It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.
33. “In the future, I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34. People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”

...Did God lie when He said, "People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”?

Kobojunkie:
The reason I pick to post from the Easy-to-Read Version of the Bible is so as to both bypass and shove the "interpretation" Bull.Piss where it belongs, - simply read and understand what is written as it is written there in English as plain as day.


I keep expecting a straightforward answer from you...

...Did God lie when He said, "People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”?

It is well... Stay safe out there

GRIMMJOE:
If humans ask "who created me?" shouldn't God also ask who created him?

Well not really. You are assuming that God is constrained in time like the universe and all that is in it.

Ok so, firstly it is established that we live in a universe with a single dimension of time, where time cannot be stopped or be reversed. Any entity constrained in a such a universe must at some ultimate point have a beginning or a creation event. So the word "to create" in this context means: For something (which wasn't in existence before) to appear at some point within this single linear dimension of time. Think of it as time being a straight line that keeps going forward and different things appearing at different points on this line.

The space-time theorem also establishes that time itself has a beginning and was created. This implies that there must be an agent outside of time itself that brought it into existence. The claim the Bible makes repeatedly is, God created the universe which includes both space and time,therefore God himself cannot be subject to linear time and he need not have a beginning or an ending. In that sense, the word "to create" cannot be applied to Him.

Finally, just as a 2d character living in a 2d world would lack the language to express anything that has depth because his entire world is constrained to only "up & down", "front & back" , we also lack the language to express how a being exists outside of linear time.
Questions like who created God?What was God doing before the universe was created? Etc cannot be applied to an entity that brought time itself into existence. And because of our contraints of reference we cannot even begin to think of the right types of questions to ask.

PRE4:
Christians are never scared of atheists,and they will never argue for a long time with atheists.The fact that Christians dont argue with them gives them the aura of intellingence and impression that Christianity is built on clueless facts.
Mind you,Religion is different from christianity.It creates sense of division among religious fanatics who can do anything to defend their religion even to the extent of killing termed"Unbelievers".

Christianity means Christ pathway.This is not a religion but a lifestyle that every follow of Christ must exhibits.We dont kill or do any diabolical practice because our father was not ever spotted doing it.
Atheist telling Christians that God does not exists is likened to a person told that his father do not exist.
This atheism should be extincted because they failed to ask themselves"WHO CREATED ME"?.
If they are saying they transformed from apes,then who created those apes?
All those laws they quote were not meant to be if a great designer never initiated it.
THINK WELL.

I've noticed a new Christian apologetic emerging in recent years. Rather than attempt the hopeless project of finding evidence to support the existence of God, Jesus, heaven, hell and all the rest of it and excuses for the contradictions and embarrassing nonsense, these new kids on the block simply say we misunderstand it all--Christianity is not a religion, it's just a way of life.
Really? So Christianity has no god, no prophets, no holy scripture, no dogma, no priests, no worship, no life-after-death and Christians don't pray? OK, it's not a religion then.
It's just a lifestyle. A lifestyle that happens to believe in a god, prophets, holy scripture, dogma, priests, worship, life-after-death and prayer.
What an amazing coincidence--it's a lifestyle that looks just like a religion!

odinson1:

I've noticed a new Christian apologetic emerging in recent years. Rather than attempt the hopeless project of finding evidence to support the existence of God, Jesus, heaven, hell and all the rest of it and excuses for the contradictions and embarrassing nonsense, these new kids on the block simply say we misunderstand it all--Christianity is not a religion, it's just a way of life.
Really? So Christianity has no god, no prophets, no holy scripture, no dogma, no priests, no worship, no life-after-death and Christians don't pray? OK, it's not a religion then.
It's just a lifestyle. A lifestyle that happens to believe in a god, prophets, holy scripture, dogma, priests, worship, life-after-death and prayer.
What an amazing coincidence--it's a lifestyle that looks just like a religion!

So what are you trying to say?

PRE4:


So what are you trying to say?

...That christainity is a religion

jamesid29:

Well not really. You are assuming that God is constrained in time like the universe and all that is in it.

Ok so, firstly it is established that we live in a universe with a single dimension of time, where time cannot be stopped or be reversed. Any entity constrained in a such a universe must at some ultimate point have a beginning or a creation event. So the word "to create" in this context means: For something (which wasn't in existence before) to appear at some point within this single linear dimension of time. Think of it as time being a straight line that keeps going forward and different things appearing at different points on this line.

The space-time theorem also establishes that time itself has a beginning and was created. This implies that there must be an agent outside of time itself that brought it into existence. The claim the Bible makes repeatedly is, God created the universe which includes both space and time,therefore God himself cannot be subject to linear time and he need not have a beginning or an ending. In that sense, the word "to create" cannot be applied to Him.

Finally, just as a 2d character living in a 2d world would lack the language to express anything that has depth because his entire world is constrained to only "up & down", "front & back" , we also lack the language to express how a being exists outside of linear time.
Questions like who created God?What was God doing before the universe was created? Etc cannot be applied to an entity that brought time itself into existence. And because of our contraints of reference we cannot even begin to think of the right types of questions to ask.

And how do you know of all this?

Let me guess,you read it in your bible

odinson1:

...That christainity is a religion

Are you aware that Religion is what is causing divisions among humanity?
Christianity is personal to every individual so when every believers believe in the same thing-division is rolled away.

odinson1:
...That christainity is a religion

Of course, it is!

PRE4:
Christians are never scared of atheists,and they will never argue for a long time with atheists.The fact that Christians dont argue with them gives them the aura of intellingence and impression that Christianity is built on clueless facts.
Mind you,Religion is different from christianity.It creates sense of division among religious fanatics who can do anything to defend their religion even to the extent of killing termed"Unbelievers".

Christianity means Christ pathway.This is not a religion but a lifestyle that every follow of Christ must exhibits.We dont kill or do any diabolical practice because our father was not ever spotted doing it.
Atheist telling Christians that God does not exists is likened to a person told that his father do not exist.
This atheism should be extincted because they failed to ask themselves"WHO CREATED ME"?.
If they are saying they transformed from apes,then who created those apes?
All those laws they quote were not meant to be if a great designer never initiated it.
THINK WELL.

Actually it's built on clueless fact

odinson1:


And how do you know of all this?

Let me guess,you read it in your bible

Naa, most of what I wrote comes from standard general relativity and modern cosmology. You can look them up yourself.
The only part that comes from the Bible is the part on what the Bible claims about God.

PRE4:
Christians are never scared of atheists,and they will never argue for a long time with atheists.The fact that Christians dont argue with them gives them the aura of intellingence and impression that Christianity is built on clueless facts.
Mind you,Religion is different from christianity.It creates sense of division among religious fanatics who can do anything to defend their religion even to the extent of killing termed"Unbelievers".

Christianity means Christ pathway.This is not a religion but a lifestyle that every follow of Christ must exhibits.We dont kill or do any diabolical practice because our father was not ever spotted doing it.
Atheist telling Christians that God does not exists is likened to a person told that his father do not exist.
This atheism should be extincted because they failed to ask themselves"WHO CREATED ME"?.
If they are saying they transformed from apes,then who created those apes?
All those laws they quote were not meant to be if a great designer never initiated it.
THINK WELL.

Christ is to Christianity what Mohammed is to Islam and Abraham is to Judaism.
It's important to know that all are religions simply trying to make sense of life and trying to create a fictitious ideal world.

Myer:


Christ is to Christianity what Mohammed is to Islam and Abraham is to Judaism.
It's important to know that all are religions simply trying to make sense of life and trying to create a fictitious ideal world.

Well, there is kind of a big difference.
You see, Muslims see Muhammad as a prophet but Christains see Christ as God. That's a huge difference in outlook.
With that said, I do understand your point of view. I do not agree with it, but I get it.

jamesid29:

Naa, most of what I wrote comes from standard general relativity and modern cosmology. You can look them up yourself.
The only part that comes from the Bible is the part on what the Bible claims about God.

That's what i asked you,how are you sure God is the all in all of the Universe, pls dont quote bible verses for me as proof
.

odinson1:

That's what i asked you,how are you sure God is the all in all of the Universe, pls dont quote bible verses for me as proof
.

I really don't understand your question, but I'm guessing it has something to do with proving the existence of God and that He created the universe?

If I got you right, what would qualify as proof to you?

Myer:
Christ is to Christianity what Mohammed is to Islam and Abraham is to Judaism.
It's important to know that all are religions simply trying to make sense of life and trying to create a fictitious ideal world.

jamesid29:
Well, there is kind of a big difference.
You see, Muslims see Muhammad as a prophet but Christains see Christ as God. That's a huge difference in outlook.
With that said, I do understand your point of view. I do not agree with it, but I get it.

"⁵⁶Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.”
⁵⁷Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
⁵⁸“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
⁵⁹At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple area"
- John 8:56-59

Myer, fyi, Judaism is a precursor to the Gospel. It was the prospect of the Gospel that Abram/Abraham saw in the future, bought and believed in, that among other things made him obey God's prompt that he should get out of his country, from his family and from his father's house, to a land that God said He will show him (i.e. Genesis 12:1 and Acts 7:3)

The name Jesus Christ, is a game changer, (i.e. Philippians 2:9-10, Matthew 28:18) that can't be compared with any other names like the mentioned prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) Praise God. Alleluia.

PS: After going through the thread, I'll say, its a case of what the elders see while sitting, the young ones standing on their toes, don't see. When tree near tree, monkey fit do stunts, but when trees far apart, monkey must trek first before hin fit climb next tree. jamesid29, well done.

MuttleyLaff:


"⁵⁶Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.”
⁵⁷Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
⁵⁸“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
⁵⁹At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple area"
- John 8:56-59

Myer, fyi, Judaism is a precursor to the Gospel. It was the prospect of the Gospel that Abram/Abraham saw in future, bought and believed in, that among other things made him obey God's prompt that he should get out of his country, from his family and from his father's house, to a land that God said He will show him (i.e. Genesis 12:1 and Acts 7:3)

The name Jesus Christ, is a game changer, (i.e. Philippians 2:9-10, Matthew 28:18) that can't be compared with any other names like the mentioned prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) Praise God. Alleluia.

PS: After going through the thread, I'll say, its a case of what the elders see while sitting, the young ones standing on their toes, don't see. When tree near tree, monkey fit do stunts, but when trees far apart, monkey must trek first before hin fit climb next tree. jamesid29, well done.

Oshey 24 elders.

Myer:
Oshey 24 elders.

That African saying was about the interaction jamesid29 was having with Kobojunkie

jamesid29:

I really don't understand your question, but I'm guessing it has something to do with proving the existence of God and that He created the universe?

If I got you right, what would qualify as proof to you?

Yeah you got it right

Proof to me will be this:
-There should be video or photo evidence
-God must appear to every single person on earth simultaneously at the same time,this way,there would be videos, pictures,news stations would broadcast it... and when more that 50 people see him at the same time with Their clear eyes...that would be proof to me

Thank you

odinson1:


Yeah you got it right

Proof to me will be this:
-There should be video or photo evidence
-God must appear to every single person on earth simultaneously at the same time,this way,there would be videos, pictures,news stations would broadcast it... and when more that 50 people see him at the same time with Their clear eyes...that would be proof to me

Thank you

And who told you people havent seen him.Many have seen God appears to them and even talk to them
Moses in the Bible saw God.
He can appear to you as a proof if you will follow the procedures.

PRE4:




And who told you people havent seen him.Many have seen God appears to them and even talk to them
Moses in the Bible saw God.
He can appear to you as a proof if you will follow the procedures.

Moses in the bible saw God? i told you not to quote scriptures for me,you weren't there when it supposedly happened, it's just a story in a book,and you have not proof for the credibility and authenticity of the bible

who have you seen that has seen God,?
mere claims are nothing,what we need is Proof!

odinson1:


Moses in the bible saw God? i told you not to quote scriptures for me,you weren't there when it supposedly happened, it's just a story in a book,and you have not proof for the credibility and authenticity of the bible

who have you seen that has seen God,?
mere claims are nothing,what we need is Proof!

The only proof like i said is to follow the procedures then you will see him without dem say

odinson1:


Yeah you got it right

Proof to me will be this:
-There should be video or photo evidence
-God must appear to every single person on earth simultaneously at the same time,this way,there would be videos, pictures,news stations would broadcast it... and when more that 50 people see him at the same time with Their clear eyes...that would be proof to me

Thank you

Lol... If that's what proofs mean to you, we might as well throw away alot of the scientific and historical discoveries of the past millennia or so.
If you really want to have a real conversation, you can always mention me

Have a good Sunday.

MuttleyLaff:

My oga, Happy Sunday.
Hope the weekend has been good.

jamesid29:

Well not really. You are assuming that God is constrained in time like the universe and all that is in it.

Ok so, firstly it is established that we live in a universe with a single dimension of time, where time cannot be stopped or be reversed. Any entity constrained in a such a universe must at some ultimate point have a beginning or a creation event. So the word "to create" in this context means: For something (which wasn't in existence before) to appear at some point within this single linear dimension of time. Think of it as time being a straight line that keeps going forward and different things appearing at different points on this line.

The space-time theorem also establishes that time itself has a beginning and was created. This implies that there must be an agent outside of time itself that brought it into existence. The claim the Bible makes repeatedly is, God created the universe which includes both space and time,therefore God himself cannot be subject to linear time and he need not have a beginning or an ending. In that sense, the word "to create" cannot be applied to Him.

Finally, just as a 2d character living in a 2d world would lack the language to express anything that has depth because his entire world is constrained to only "up & down", "front & back" , we also lack the language to express how a being exists outside of linear time.
Questions like who created God?What was God doing before the universe was created? Etc cannot be applied to an entity that brought time itself into existence. And because of our contraints of reference we cannot even begin to think of the right types of questions to ask.

All what you wrote was trashed when God said he's the beginning and the end. For a beginning to exist time must exist, God nevered said he's Omnilock.

Just some education, humans are 3 dimensional being, but what we see are 2 dimensional, that's why you can watch a movie on a flat screen, anything you can see can be painted on a picture.

See why science will always be ahead of religion that shut down peoples brains, also you assume the 4th dimension is time, nobody knows what the fourth dimension is even Einstein.

GRIMMJOE:
All what you wrote was trashed when God said he's the beginning and the end. For a beginning to exist time must exist, God nevered said he's Omnilock.

Ok so, the statement "I am the beginning and the end" is a title used by Jesus in the book of revelations and is usually accompanied with the statements "I am the Alpha and Omega", "the First and the Last". To put things in context, the book of revelations is a apocalyptic book detailing the end of all things(current universe).It's at this time God is going to deal with evil on a cosmic scale and usher in a new universe with new physical laws ,where there's no pain, no death,no suffering etc.
So in Genesis 1, we have "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", John 1:1-3 expands on that with "In the beginning was the Word.....verse3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." and finally the book of revelation reveals to us how the second coming of Christ is bringing everything to an end in this age.
So when we have the statement " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." It means God/Jesus is the beginning of all things and He is also the end of all things. It's not that He has a beginning or an end.

And yea, The Bible does talk about God being transcendent:Psalm 90:2, Genesis 1:1, Genesis 21:33, Colossians 1:16-17, Revelations 10:6 and so on.

Just some education, humans are 3 dimensional being, but what we see are 2 dimensional, that's why you can watch a movie on a flat screen, anything you can see can be painted on a picture.

I don't see how this is relevant to our conversation but just a slight adjustment to put what you said in perspective. Yes, our eyes take in information in 2d but our brain recreates those images into 3d by using things like the difference in images from both eyes, motion, relative size etc to determine depth.
It just like how our eyes sees images upside down then our brain turns it the right way up. Again I really don't see how this helps our conversation but I would agree with you that our system is pretty amazing.

See why science will always be ahead of religion that shut down peoples brains, also you assume the 4th dimension is time, nobody knows what the fourth dimension is even Einstein.

@bolded... It's pretty weird you would make this statement. The concept that we live in a universe whose fabrics is 3-dimensions of space and 1-dimension of time connected together(Hence why it's called space-time) is nothing new. Objects with mass don't only move through space but also move through time and the faster you move through space, the slower you move through time. Gravity is not a force that attracts objects together but the warping of space-time itself. That's the basics of the theory of Relativity, which has been around for over a 100yrs.
It's also weird you would say Einstein doesn't know this as he is the one who actually proved it and it's his prove of this particular theory that catapulted him into stardom.

jamesid29:

Ok so, the statement "I am the beginning and the end" is a title used by Jesus in the book of revelations and is usually accompanied with the statements "I am the Alpha and Omega", "the First and the Last". To put things in context, the book of revelations is a apocalyptic book detailing the end of all things(current universe).It's at this time God is going to deal with evil on a cosmic scale and usher in a new universe with new physical laws ,where there's no pain, no death,no suffering etc.
So in Genesis 1, we have "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", John 1:1-3 expands on that with "In the beginning was the Word.....verse3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." and finally the book of revelation reveals to us how the second coming of Christ is bringing everything to an end in this age.
So when we have the statement " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." It means God/Jesus is the beginning of all things and He is also the end of all things. It's not that He has a beginning or an end.

And yea, The Bible does talk about God being transcendent:Psalm 90:2, Genesis 1:1, Genesis 21:33, Colossians 1:16-17, Revelations 10:6 and so on.


I don't see how this is relevant to our conversation but just a slight adjustment to put what you said in perspective. Yes, our eyes take in information in 2d but our brain recreates those images into 3d by using things like the difference in images from both eyes, motion, relative size etc to determine depth.
It just like how our eyes sees images upside down then our brain turns it the right way up. Again I really don't see how this helps our conversation but I would agree with you that our system is pretty amazing.


@bolded... It's pretty weird you would make this statement. The concept that we live in a universe whose fabrics is 3-dimensions of space and 1-dimension of time connected together(Hence why it's called space-time) is nothing new. Objects with mass don't only move through space but also move through time and the faster you move through space, the slower you move through time. Gravity is not a force that attracts objects together but the warping of space-time itself. That's the basics of the theory of Relativity, which has been around for over a 100yrs.
It's also weird you would say Einstein doesn't know this as he is the one who actually proved it and it's his prove of this particular theory that catapulted him into stardom.

Yawns, no one yet knows the truth of this world, Einstein theory is still inconclusive, but it holds more to the rest. (there are more so called theory of how this world came about, not just God and big bang)

About truth, science is willing to research and know more, not religion that shut down peoples brain with God created everything the end.

About inconclusive, the Bible only shows it was written by men with little knowledge of this world when it was written, saying the earth rest on 4 pillars, light being created before sun and so on.

If God truly is Omnipotent, I mean Omnipotent, not neigh Omnipotent, not true Omnipotent, not absolute Omnipotent, but Omnipotent.
He would have succeeded in creating the world he always want to create, but instead he fails miserably, shows the plot holes was as a result of a book written by humans.

GRIMMJOE:
Yawns, no one yet knows the truth of this world, Einstein theory is still inconclusive, but it holds more to the rest. (there are more so called theory of how this world came about, not just God and big bang)

Einstein's theory of Relativity is one of the very few well attested and rigorously tested theories in all of science till date.
You can say you do not agree with it and it would be great if you can give reasons why and maybe present any other theory you believe more accurately describes the physics of the big...as you said, science thrives on questioning. Or you can say you don't know much about it,which is also a totally acceptable answer as no one knows everything. What you can't say is, we don't know anything about anything that describes our physical universe just because there are still things we do not understand well enough. If that's the case, We might as well stop going to school and also believe the technologies man has developed over the centuries that depend on the things we do know are based on magic.( I.e people who say it's oyinbo witchcraft that keeps a plane in the air.)

And sir, our discussion is not about the big bang. Our discussion has been about the property of time and how it relates to existence.

I'll take the other things you wrote as you blowing off steam as they are not directly related to our discussion.