As an atheist that doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

What would it take to make you believe in God's existence?

A logical proof? An empirical proof?

You want God to come down and reveal himself to you?

What exactly will quench your disbelief?

I wonder why atheists avoided this thread.

African Atheists aren't to be called Atheists , give them jobs and they tank Jesus , holyspirit for answering their prayers

SisterFire:
African Atheists aren't to be called Atheists , give them jobs and they tank Jesus , holyspirit for answering their prayers

So they should thank you who claims to be a 5 billion-year-old lesbian goddesses that's stronger than God but lives for cheap attention on Nairaland?

Please don't make me laugh I'm not felling well.

MrColdsweat:
As an atheist that doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

What would it take to make you believe in God's existence?

A logical proof? An empirical proof?

You want God to come down and reveal himself to you?

What exactly will quench your disbelief?

Depends on the god. For gods like the Christian god that can take bodily shape and do things that defy the laws of the universe, they may have to come in visible form and perform feats that defy the laws of the universe as we know them. That will at least convince me that the claims of Christianity have merit.

SisterFire:
African Atheists aren't to be called Atheists , give them jobs and they tank Jesus , holyspirit for answering their prayers

You must be confusing Christians for Atheists.

MrColdsweat:
As an atheist that doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

What would it take to make you believe in God's existence?

A logical proof? An empirical proof?

You want God to come down and reveal himself to you?

What exactly will quench your disbelief?

Good question. If God exists and he/she/it (for the purpose of this discussion I'd use "He" from now on) wants me to know him then he KNOWS what he would do to convince me. he created me from scratch, knows all my strengths and weaknesses, knows me more than I even know myself so only he knows what would convince me of his existence

MrColdsweat:
As an atheist that doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

What is a supreme being? Supreme means the highest in degree or quality, rank or authority. i.e Ultimate. A being known as a diety means one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful i.e god
Which god is the Ultimate? Which god is the owner of the title “God”? Is God supreme relative to humans or relative to other gods?
Virtually all cultures have created gods to explain nature, natural occurrences, and the “cause” of existence itself. We have enough historical knowledge of how man transitioned from animism to idols and sky gods, from sky gods to the invincible god that is beyond space and time.
How do we know men created these gods?
Because we have contemporary examples of how religion/gods/doctrine are created (Scientology, Mormonism, and any New Age belief). Because we recognize myths and legends including the farfetched characters that are the protagonists and antagonists of these stories. Because we recognize the actions in these stories go against physical laws. Because these stories appeal to ignorance. Because some people readily dismiss stories and beliefs that are similar to theirs while ignoring the hypocrisy of such action. Because gods have the same attributes as men.
Let’s have a roll call.
Chukwu
Olodumare
Ubangiji
Ptah
Osiris
Serapis
Ra
Amun
Jupiter
Zeus
El
Minerva
Brahma
Ahura Mazda
Vishnu
Shiva
Nut
Gutt
Baal
Gudan
Oangu
Ukko
Rod
Yahweh
Allah
Jove
Ngewo
Ganesa
Amma
Quetzalcoatl
Wotan (Odin)
Tian
Anu
Marduk
Which of these gods is the ultimate one? What makes it ultimate?
Included in our list above are various national or patron dieities such as Marduk of ancient Babylon, Zeus of ancient Greece, Jove of ancient Rome, Yahweh of ancient Israel, Wotan of the Norse, Quezalcoatl of the ancient Aztecs etc. Which people have a claim of worshipping the ultimate god?
Why does the OP consider the patron god of ancient Israel to be the supreme being?
Zeus is considered Greek mythology. Odin is Norse/Germanic mythology. Olodumare is Yoruba mythology. Marduk is Babylonian mythology. Ptah is Egyptian mythology.
So, why is Yahweh exempt?

MrColdsweat:
What would it take to make you believe in God's existence?

What is God?
Science has enabled knowledge of universe to increase while exposing just how ignorant we are about the very nature of existence. Absent of hubris, one would realize that humans may lack the cognitive ability to ever comprehend the nature of existence. So, if we are currently ignorant of what the universe is and may never know, how can you possibly fathom an entity that could have created it (if that’s your worldview)?
The Sun is said to be 1.8million kilometres in diameter and it fuses 620 metric tons of hydrogen each second. What makes you think you can fathom an entity capable of creating that?

MrColdsweat:
A logical proof? An empirical proof?

You can’t prove God with logic.
You say, “God exists”. Your statement is either true or false.
I negate your statement, “God does not exist”. My statement is either true or false.
If your statement is true, mine is necessarily false, and vice versa.
I don’t have to do anything but negate your statement and wait for you to prove your statement. Since you can NEVER prove the existence of God, my statement is true.
You can trot out arguments such as Kalam Cosmologial Argument or the Ontological Argument but these arguments are fallacious and do not prove God. Even if we allow the premises to be true, they can support Magical Pixies, The Great Spark, or God.
Empirical proof would put God in the realm of science and you wouldn’t need faith.

MrColdsweat:
You want God to come down and reveal himself to you?

Your God must be the patron diety of the Flat Earth Society. If the earth were flat and covered by a dome, then your God can come down and reveal himself. However, reality does not jive with your faith.
It seems your God has a gender. I prefer female Gods and I wouldn’t want your God revealing himself to me. That’s some kinky shit!

MrColdsweat:
What exactly will quench your disbelief?

The abstract idea that is God does not fit anywhere in my worldview. If it,or they, exist, we will discover it through the study of the natural world or it make itself known.

LordReed:


Depends on the god. For gods like the Christian god that can take bodily shape and do things that defy the laws of the universe, they may have to come in visible form and perform feats that defy the laws of the universe as we know them. That will at least convince me that the claims of Christianity have merit.

But the ones that saw and heard Him didn't believe, neither was He happy with them. Why do you foolishly think you will be convinced by manifestation?

hopefulLandlord:


Good question. If God exists and he/she/it (for the purpose of this discussion I'd use "He" from now on) wants me to know him then he KNOWS what he would do to convince me. he created me from scratch, knows all my strengths and weaknesses, knows me more than I even know myself so only he knows what would convince me of his existence

Good answer.

Image123:

But the ones that saw and heard Him didn't believe, neither was He happy with them. Why do you foolishly think you will be convinced by manifestation?

Can he He appear to the whole world at the same time?
The OP said he can come "down"? A good manifestation would be him "coming down" simultaneously in Sydney, Lagos, Rome, Dharka, Dakar, Tokyo etc. With the ubiquitous camera phone, his His existence would no longer be in doubt. Is that foolish?

TimeIllusion:


Can he He appear to the whole world at the same time?
The OP said he can come "down"? A good manifestation would be him "coming down" simultaneously in Sydney, Lagos, Rome, Dharka, Dakar, Tokyo etc. With the ubiquitous camera phone, his His existence would no longer be in doubt. Is that foolish?

Covid 19 is here with us, there are people who don't believe. Don't be fooled by your brain. Like someone said, if God who knows you more than you know yourself has done what you need to believe. It is not by force, the way remains narrow.

Image123:


Covid 19 is here with us, there are people who don't believe. Don't be fooled by your brain.

Such a poor analogy. The venn diagram of people who don't accept the the existence of COVID and those who believe in the same god as you is a perfect circle. Examples abound on this site.

Image123:
Like someone said, if God who knows you more than you know yourself has done what you need to believe.

The patron diety of Israel that you call God has done as much as Zeus.

Image123:
It is not by force, the way remains narrow.

It's not by force? That's rich coming from an adherent of a religion that includes "hell" in it's doctrine and mythology.

TimeIllusion:


Such a poor analogy. The venn diagram of people who don't accept the the existence of COVID and those who believe in the same god as you is a perfect circle. Examples abound on this site.



The patron diety of Israel that you call God has done as much as Zeus.



It's not by force? That's rich coming from an adherent of a religion that includes "hell" in it's doctrine and mythology.

In addition to what you have said, I believe it is impossible for God(s ) to exist .
I also believe it is impossible for nothing to exist as there is no limit to the things that exist.
The universe is just one of those things.

TimeIllusion:


Such a poor analogy. The venn diagram of people who don't accept the the existence of COVID and those who believe in the same god as you is a perfect circle. Examples abound on this site.



The patron diety of Israel that you call God has done as much as Zeus.



It's not by force? That's rich coming from an adherent of a religion that includes "hell" in it's doctrine and mythology.

A poor analogy yet you accept that there are people who don't believe in Covid 19? It seems satan really devours people's brains literally. If God and Zeus did same things, they'd have similar numbers of adherents or you are saying that on faith? If it was by force for you to believe, you would have. You don't believe because it is not by force. Consequences are different. There are consequences for reckless driving, unprotected sex or illiteracy. It doesn't mean it is by force to drive with sense, be responsible or be literate. Mr. man, like i tell your colleagues, think please.

Image123:


A poor analogy yet you accept that there are people who don't believe in Covid 19?

You think a little. Can Yahweh be proven in a lab like COVID-19? People who think there is no COVID-19 have faith it doesn't exist just like they have faith that Yahweh exists. Oyedepo has faith in your God just as he has faith that "COVID is a lie from Hell"

Image123:

It seems satan really devours people's brains literally.

One mythological character at a time. Keep satan away from here for now.

Image123:

If God and Zeus did same things, they'd have similar numbers of adherents or you are saying that on faith?

All gods do the same things regardless of adherents. Absolutely nothing. That's reality, not faith. The number of adherents of your god is due to violence, conquest, subjugation, proselytizing, theft, and consolidation of political power by people.
Tell me what your god did that can't be attributed to Zeus? You make a claim about your god without evidence and somebody else can claim Marduk did it without evidence.

Image123:

If it was by force for you to believe, you would have. You don't believe because it is not by force. Consequences are different. There are consequences for reckless driving, unprotected sex or illiteracy. It doesn't mean it is by force to drive with sense, be responsible or be literate. Mr. man, like i tell your colleagues, think please.

The consequences for reckless driving, unprotected sex, or illiteracy are not equivalent to stated consequences of rejecting your God. Apart from faith in your God being historically spread at the point of a sword, the threat of hell is the equivalent of force.

If I tell you that 10 years from today I will Water Board you everyday for the rest of your life if you don't agree with me about Pixies and their eternal love, it would be force. Granted it is not explicit, but if you know I was capable of it then it would be force. For people who think there is a God, it is force by threat. Pascal's Wager is based on this threat.
Does a military regime have to force you to do things at the point of a gun? No, they'll just tell you the "consequences".

HellVictorinho:

In addition to what you have said, I believe it is impossible for God(s ) to exist .
I also believe it is impossible for nothing to exist as there is no limit to the things that exist.
The universe is just one of those things.

It's not impossible that an entity that approximates "God" exist, it's improbable.
Yes, something has always existed and will always exist. We are just a minuscule part of the eternal rhythm. Before us, after us, and currently, existence persists in "infinite forms".

TimeIllusion:


It's not impossible that an entity that approximates "God" exist, it's improbable.
Yes, something has always existed and will always exist. We are just a minuscule part of the eternal rhythm. Before us, after us, and currently, existence persists in "infinite forms".

Those infinite forms don't make up something.
Something refers to one of them.
In other words,there are things or somethings that always exist.
They neither have a beginning nor an end.

TimeIllusion:


You think a little. Can Yahweh be proven in a lab like COVID-19? People who think there is no COVID-19 have faith it doesn't exist just like they have faith that Yahweh exists. Oyedepo has faith in your God just as he has faith that "COVID is a lie from Hell"



One mythological character at a time. Keep satan away from here for now.



All gods do the same things regardless of adherents. Absolutely nothing. That's reality, not faith. The number of adherents of your god is due to violence, conquest, subjugation, proselytizing, theft, and consolidation of political power by people.
Tell me what your god did that can't be attributed to Zeus? You make a claim about your god without evidence and somebody else can claim Marduk did it without evidence.



The consequences for reckless driving, unprotected sex, or illiteracy are not equivalent to stated consequences of rejecting your God. Apart from faith in your God being historically spread at the point of a sword, the threat of hell is the equivalent of force.

If I tell you that 10 years from today I will Water Board you everyday for the rest of your life if you don't agree with me about Pixies and their eternal love, it would be force. Granted it is not explicit, but if you know I was capable of it then it would be force. For people who think there is a God, it is force by threat. Pascal's Wager is based on this threat.
Does a military regime have to force you to do things at the point of a gun? No, they'll just tell you the "consequences".

You have finished him and the God in his head.
Such God will also be buried along with his brain.

Why don't you give an example of logical and empirical 'proofs'.

I'm sure these proofs have already been responded to.

If the creator is omni-powerful, shouldn't s/he be able to come down and reveal themselves to us?

MrColdsweat:
As an atheist that doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

What would it take to make you believe in God's existence?

A logical proof? An empirical proof?

You want God to come down and reveal himself to you?

What exactly will quench your disbelief?

TimeIllusion:


It's not impossible that an entity that approximates "God" exist, it's improbable.
Yes, something has always existed and will always exist. We are just a minuscule part of the eternal rhythm. Before us, after us, and currently, existence persists in "infinite forms".

You could have just left it at the emboldened. What makes it improbable?
What do you mean by existence? The observable universe?

Atheists have a habit of arguing about the nature of God, instead of sticking to the main point which is “Was the universe created or not?”

For now, logic (I don’t want to argue about faith) says that we were created. But the paradox is that whatever created us is outside the laws of our creation. I am willing to shift in my belief if you atheists provide evidence of your own belief (yes, atheism is a belief, because you also cannot prove your assertions).

There is nothing like "christian God, my God, your God". There is just one creator of the universe. It's the concept or understanding of God that varies from one religion to the other. There can only be one creator of the universe..

TimeIllusion:






You can’t prove God with logic.
You say, “God exists”. Your statement is either true or false.
I negate your statement, “God does not exist”. My statement is either true or false.
If your statement is true, mine is necessarily false, and vice versa.
I don’t have to do anything but negate your statement and wait for you to prove your statement. Since you can NEVER prove the existence of God, my statement is true.


.

This is a facallcy
It's an appeal from ignorance (Argumentum ad ignorantiam)

You need proof from Theists to accept that your statement "God does not exist" is false but don't you think Theists also need proof from you to accept their claim "God exists" is also false.

You said you don't have to do anything but negate the statement "God exist" that seems very convenient
Now let's have it the other way now.
Claim "God doesn't exist" and let theists not do anything and wait for you to proof God does not exist which you can NEVER do otherwise, God exists

[The fact no one HAS or HAS NOT come up with proof or the evidence of the existence of God may amount to ignorance, since there's no evidence adequate to establish both assertions]

So you don't just get to say since theists can't prove the existence of God, you are right. Since Theists can also say since atheists can't prove the non existence of God, then they are right

PilotOne:


You could have just left it at the emboldened. What makes it improbable?

Improbable because it's idea based on a very limited understanding of the universe and often given human attributes. Improbable means I could be wrong and something that approximates how various people describe god could very well be true, but it's highly unlikely given the mythological nature of gods. But "God(s)" could be real.

PilotOne:
What do you mean by existence? The observable universe?

Observable and unobservable.
Existence meaning what's real and not just an abstract idea.
e.g.
Snow White does not exist because it's just a fairy tale character.
Snow White exists as an intellectual property of Walt Disney

God exists as an abstract idea. But is the idea based on something that is an actual entity, object, being or is it based solely on the human intellect like Snow White?

PilotOne:
Atheists have a habit of arguing about the nature of God, instead of sticking to the main point which is “Was the universe created or not?”

This thread is not about whether the universe was created or not. However, if you think it was created, tell us how. Tell us about the nature of God too.

PilotOne:
For now, logic (I don’t want to argue about faith) says that we were created. But the paradox is that whatever created us is outside the laws of our creation.

How does logic support creation?
What do you mean by creation?
What are "laws of creation"
Who promulgated this laws?
What do you mean "outside the laws of creation"

PilotOne:
I am willing to shift in my belief if you atheists provide evidence of your own belief (yes, atheism is a belief, because you also cannot prove your assertions).

The first honest thing you've said, accidentally. You cannot prove God, that's why you have faith. Logically, if you can't prove it, then the atheists assertion, not belief, is true. No faith needed.

If I say TUTUkan is real and fail to provide any proof or even clarify what it is, do you have "belief" that TUTUkan is real or do you reasonably dismiss it due to lack of evidence and lack of clarity? Replace TUTUkan with God or god or diety or supreme being or whatever else the "creator" is called.

TimeIllusion:


You think a little. Can Yahweh be proven in a lab like COVID-19? People who think there is no COVID-19 have faith it doesn't exist just like they have faith that Yahweh exists. Oyedepo has faith in your God just as he has faith that "COVID is a lie from Hell"

You decided to fallaciously miss the point, let's hope it's not deliberate else we are both wasting your time.
Someone said he would be convinced if God appeared physically or manifested Himself. i reminded him how that didn't seem to work out too well in the Bible accounts. You said God should appear in cities for people with camera phones as a solution. i reminded you that Covid 19 is in cities and everywhere on the media, yet there are people who don't believe. In simple words, appearing on phones, videos and cities doesn't mean you will be believed either. You leave this simple straightforward fact and line and start to talk about venn diagrams, laboratories and hell. Are you being rational or emotional?

One mythological character at a time. Keep satan away from here for now.

Someone mentioned Zeus, do you remember or it was devoured?

All gods do the same things regardless of adherents. Absolutely nothing. That's reality, not faith. The number of adherents of your god is due to violence, conquest, subjugation, proselytizing, theft, and consolidation of political power by people.
Tell me what your god did that can't be attributed to Zeus? You make a claim about your god without evidence and somebody else can claim Marduk did it without evidence.

Your definition of evidence being lab science. Good, what is your evidence of love?

The consequences for reckless driving, unprotected sex, or illiteracy are not equivalent to stated consequences of rejecting your God. Apart from faith in your God being historically spread at the point of a sword, the threat of hell is the equivalent of force.

If I tell you that 10 years from today I will Water Board you everyday for the rest of your life if you don't agree with me about Pixies and their eternal love, it would be force. Granted it is not explicit, but if you know I was capable of it then it would be force. For people who think there is a God, it is force by threat. Pascal's Wager is based on this threat.
Does a military regime have to force you to do things at the point of a gun? No, they'll just tell you the "consequences".

Hell is not a threat, just like accident is not a threat, STD and unwanted pregnancy is not a threat. They are consequences of actions that are usually done without force. If you were forced, you would have been saved. That is why you keep glibly referring to some times when people were forced.
So many people who claim to be Christian don't even know about hell, believe in hell or agree about hell. Yet you claim it is by force to believe.

Theguided:


This is a facallcy
It's an appeal from ignorance (Argumentum ad ignorantiam)

You need proof from Theists to accept that your statement "God does not exist" is false but don't you think Theists also need proof from you to accept their claim "God exists" is also false.

It's not an appeal from ignorance. You made the claim without providing evidence or clarifying it. If I call it false, it's not appeal from ignorance. See TUTUkan above.

Theguided:
You said you that have to do anything but negate the statement "God exist" that seems very convenient
Now let's have it the other way now.
Claim "God doesn't exist" and let theists not do anything and wait for you to proof God does not exist which you can NEVER do otherwise, God exists

I'm not going to make the claim God doesn't exist because I don't know what God is.
If I make a claim that Aliens built the pyramids then fail to provide any evidence or reasonable argument your negation of Aliens did not build the pyramids would be true. It would be appeal from ignorance if I said it must be true that aliens built the pyramids because you can't prove that Aliens built the pyramid.
Humans are capable architects, so why I assume more complexity (aliens) when the simple answer is adequate.
It would be appeal from ignorance if you said God exists because I can't prove he doesn't.

Theguided:
[The fact no one HAS or HAS NOT come up with proof or the evidence of the existence of God may amount to ignorance, since there's no evidence adequate to establish both assertions]

Which is why I said to the OP that you can't prove God with logic. However, that negation can work for any extraordinary claim that lack evidence or even clarity.

TimeIllusion:


Improbable because it's idea based on a very limited understanding of the universe and often given human attributes. Improbable means I could be wrong and something that approximates how various people describe god could very well be true, but it's highly unlikely given the mythological nature of gfods. But "God(s)" could be real.

The mythological nature many have ascribed to God should not have any bearing on the likelihood of God‘s existence.

Observable and unobservable.
Existence meaning what's real and not just an abstract idea.
e.g.
Snow White does not exist because it's just a fairy tale character.
Snow White exists as an intellectual property of Walt Disney

God exists as an abstract idea. But is the idea based on something that is an actual entity, object, being or is it based solely on the human intellect like Snow White?



This thread is not about whether the universe was created or not. However, if you think it was created, tell us how. Tell us about the nature of God too.


How does logic support creation?
What do you mean by creation?
What are "laws of creation"
Who promulgated this laws?
What do you mean "outside the laws of creation"



The first honest thing you've said, accidentally. You cannot prove God, that's why you have faith. Logically, if you can't prove it, then the atheists assertion, not belief, is true. No faith needed.

If I say TUTUkan is real and fail to provide any proof or even clarify what it is, do you have "belief" that TUTUkan is real or do you reasonably dismiss it due to lack of evidence and lack of clarity? Replace TUTUkan with God or god or diety or supreme being or whatever else the "creator" is called.

The Science we know today shows that the Big Bang started everything. There is currently no understanding of what happened before the Big Bang. My logic is based on that. The universe was designed to come into existence because the current laws of the universe break down at that point.

However your argument is based on hope(belief), that one day we will understand how the Universe came about.

So logic, based on what we can prove at this moment is that we were created.
Wisdom, says we really don’t know.

However the weakest argument is yours, which states that the universe is just existing. You should provide proof to back that up.

Image123:


You decided to fallaciously miss the point, let's hope it's not deliberate else we are both wasting your time.
Someone said he would be convinced if God appeared physically or manifested Himself. i reminded him how that didn't seem to work out too well in the Bible accounts.

Biblical accounts cannot serve as evidence or example of "God". Stories about Yahweh are are valid as Stories about Zeus when it comes to God. Saying Yahweh manifested in the Bible is like saying Ahura Mazda manifested in the Avesta. I'm sure you wouldn't accept the use of the Avesta so you shouldn't present your bible as evidence.

Image123:

You said God should appear in cities for people with camera phones as a solution. i reminded you that Covid 19 is in cities and everywhere on the media, yet there are people who don't believe. In simple words, appearing on phones, videos and cities doesn't mean you will be believed either. You leave this simple straightforward fact and line and start to talk about venn diagrams, laboratories and hell. Are you being rational or emotional?

If recordings are not enough, I'm sure it can do other things to prove itself.
COVID-19 remains a poor example because it can be proven even if people refuse to accept it without personal experience. And some refuse to accept it as they are dying from it. Nevertheless, its existence does not depend on faith.
Another thing, the reasons for believing in COVID-19 are not sensible and mostly based on faith, similar to the reasons for believing in Yahweh.

Image123:
Someone mentioned Zeus, do you remember or it was devoured?

Zeus is the equivalent of Yahweh while satan is one Yahweh's underlings in jewish mythology.

Image123:
Your definition of evidence being lab science. Good, what is your evidence of love?

Mapping can reveal the activation in the reward and motivation systems of the brain, which means certain chemical/neurological reaction to stimuli is what's called "love". A dead brain can't express love. No?

Image123:

Hell is not a threat, just like accident is not a threat, STD and unwanted pregnancy is not a threat. They are consequences of actions that are usually done without force.

STD and unwanted pregnancy are possible consequences of having sex. You can have sex without contracting an STD or unwanted pregnancy and they are not equivalent to long-term torture (hell).
According to Christianity, hell is the certain consequence of rejecting your doctrine and mythology. For people prone to having faith, hell is an implicit threat.

I repeat, does a military regime have to harm you to force you to comply? All they have to do is tell you the "consequences".

Image123:
If you were forced, you would have been saved. That is why you keep glibly referring to some times when people were forced.

No, I would have been dead.

Image123:
So many people who claim to be Christian don't even know about hell, believe in hell or agree about hell. Yet you claim it is by force to believe.

Of course there are many versions of Christianity, but we are talking about the versions that want to cast everyone to hell. Even your Jesus allegedly talked about hell, so maybe Christians who don't believe in hell are not "true Christians". It's not by force to believe in God, but according to your faith, it's believe or else a.k.a by force

So many who claim to be Christian can even agree about the nature of the diety you call God (or hell), but you're so sure it exists. Where is Maxindahouse, I need him to tell you you're wrong?

PilotOne:

The mythological nature many have ascribed to God should not have any bearing on the likelihood of God‘s existence.

It has bearing on the likelihood of God's existence because "God" is just one of various mythological characters that is elevated above the rest.
Definition of God outside mythology is impossible. However, God(s) could exist, I just say no one is capable of presenting or defining coherently.

PilotOne:
The Science we know today shows that the Big Bang started everything. There is currently no understanding of what happened before the Big Bang. My logic is based on that.

The science doesn't say Big Bang started everything. It says Big Bang was the expansion of what is. The Big Bang is the expansion of the universe from a lower state of entropy (particular configuration compared to now). The science we know says energy is not created or destroyed.

PilotOne:
The universe was designed to come into existence because the current laws of the universe break down at that point.

What current laws of the universe "break down"? Are you aware that so called laws of the universe are descriptive not prescriptive?

PilotOne:
However your argument is based on hope(belief), that one day we will understand how the Universe came about.

It's not based on belief or hope. My argument is based on the possibility that we may be unable to even know what the universe is during our existence. Humans may well go extinct before we accumulate enough knowledge, assuming it's possible to accumulate enough knowledge.

PilotOne:
So logic, based on what we can prove at this moment is that we were created.
Wisdom, says we really don’t know.

Logic doesn't prove that we were created. Wisdom is not insisting we were created.

PilotOne:
However the weakest argument is yours, which states that the universe is just existing. You should provide proof to back that up.

I didn't say just existing. I said it (including matter that makes up your body) has always existed while continuously changing. The Big Bang is about change. To talk about the universe is to talk about change. If science is true that energy is not created or destroyed........

TimeIllusion:



The science doesn't Big Bang started everything. It say Big Bang was the expansion was what is. The Big Bang is the expansion of the universe from a lower state of entropy (particular configuration compared to now). The science we know says energy is not created or destroyed.

What current laws of the universe "break down"? Are you aware that so called laws of the universe are descriptive not prescriptive?

I mentioned the Big Bang because it is a well known phenomenon. However I meant that our understanding of the universe breaks down at that point.
How did the Universe get into that so called lower state of entropy? What was it’s state before that?

It's not based on belief or hope. My argument is based on the possibility that we may be unable to even know what the universe is during our existence. Humans may well go extinct before we accumulate enough knowledge, assuming it's possible to accumulate enough knowledge.

I am happy seeing that word possibility. The problem is atheists giving others a hard time as if their own belief is based on hard evidence. For the sake of science, it’s better to keep pushing for knowledge but you have to have an open mind, if not you become the same thing you criticise.


You have to admit that there is also a possibility that the universe was created.
If I create a game, and give the objects in the game intelligence , their will be a limit to their intelligence because they live in a world I created.

I didn't say just existing. I said it has always existed while continuously changing.

You cannot prove this without explaining how the universe got into the lower state of entropy to begin with.

Theguided:
There is nothing like "christian God, my God, your God". There is just one creator of the universe. It's the concept or understanding of God that varies from one religion to the other. There can only be one creator of the universe..

Why? Do skyscrapers get built by only 1 person?