₦airaland Forum

[b] @chukwudi44

You are really amazing character!! Trying to disprove my claim on the basis that Noah was not mentioned in chapter 4 while your fallen angel theory was not even mentioned in the entire book of 1 peter how hypocritical!!!

chukwudi,pls lets be real here,i appreciate the fact that you are a christian and also keep the conversation friendly,and im enjoying this discussion,but we cannot jump from 1peter 3:19-21 straight to 1peter 4:6 denying the point of discussion in chapter 4; preeceeding vs6 below;


1 Peter 4:1-6
King James Version (KJV)
1 Peter 4

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



vs 1-3 (in green above)actually highlight what we as christians must be 'dead' to, christians that are living the life highligted in verse 3 above (3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatriesare regarded as 'dead' in christ.

but vs 6 above was only saying that 'for this cause,the gospel was preached 'to them who are dead' (neckros) a figurative 'dead' those living the immoral lives in vs3 are 'figuratively dead' but,that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
living according to God in spirit
romans 8:7-9;
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

chukwudi, you cant deny that the preceeding verses (1-5)before verse 6 is talking about works of the flesh,so how will it now jump to refer to the issue of 'spirits in prison'and did not even mention 'prison in the whole chapter'

chukwudi's quote

I will just take it that you did not understand my comments there and not that you are simply being mischievious

I made that comment to prove to you that spirits were also used to describe humans and not to use it to validate the doctrine of purgatory.That passage has got nothing to do with purgatory even though it is a proof of human communication with the dead.My comments were clear enough to show my intentions for posting that comment as I further explained thus;

i understood what you are trying to say, 'to prove that spirits were also used to describe humans' but by who? thats it,
let me give an example here;
jesus was described here as casting out devil using the power of 'belzebub', now can we rely on this assertion as a fact,thereby doubting jesus? no, why because we also want to know 'who' make the 'statement' thereby we drop the assertion and treat it as if it was never mentioned.
because we dont also believe the source,or no other person agrees with that.

so since there appears to be no other credible instances except the demonic sorcerers 'spirit' that God himself has warned his people 'not to share the belief'with those people, we do not even need to cite that as the spirit we are talking about.

luke 11:14,15.
14And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

15But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.
[/b]

[b]@chukwudi44

chukudi44's quotes

Spirits and souls are used interchangeably in the bible.Besides spirits were also used to describe human as in the case of samuel when saul consulted the medium at endor

WHOA! WHOA!WHOAAA! incredible, using a claim by a spiritistic medium to prove porgatory!is that what 'the bible teach'? and from the whole bible, the only place you finnally try hold on to 'support your claim was 'what the woman sorcerer of endor said'.
okay, Do i agree that the catholic relies on sorcerers and spiritistic reference to prove porgatory? if you can not support your claim with authentic bible verse then that is the implication of citing a sorcerer as a reference.
let me also pointed out that,your translation does not agree with king james version,which is Generally accepted by christians read below;

The above above passage makes it abundantly clear that the spirits mentioned in the earlier passage refers to souls of humans who perished in Noah's flood

you have not even prove to us or convince us that 'spirit' and 'souls' are same,so until you do that,before we can proceed,

and there was no even 'a mention of noah'in that whole chapter 4,before and after,so how you connect 1pet 4:6 only to 1pet3:19-21 is a mystery,disregarding the whole chapter 4.

but what is clear was that Angels are certified as spirits with evidences, and this spirits sinned during noahs days,taking wives for theirself and bear childrens,their sin was that they left 'their original abode' and were thrown into custudy 'or' prison,awaiting judgement.they do not need to die,because they are spirit already,that certified that since spirit Angels were also reffered to as spirits,and sinned in connection with the people in noahs day,and since it was only spirit that was recorded as being 'spirit in prison,now the burden of proofs now lie on you to proof beyond reasonable doubt that,spirits are also souls,

failure to do that shows that the notion of porgatory has no basis from biblical truth.

Since you asked for bible passages I would now paste some bible passages to back up my case about saul's encounter with the witch of endor which I didn't do in my previous case in order to prove my case that spirits are also used in the bible to describe humans.

1 samuel 28 : 8 so saul disguised himself.He put on differant cloaks and after dark he went with two of his. Men to see the woman.Consult the spirits for me and tell me what is going to happen.

1 sam 28:13

1 see a spirit comming up from the earth she answered.what does it look like he asked?Its an old man comming up she answered he is wearing a cloak.Then saul knew it was samuel. And he bowed down his head in respect

I chalenge you to show us the bible translation that translate both this (1 sam 28:8,13)a single bible translation where verse 8 and 13 both use spirits,but then thats not the issue here,the issue is 'to cite a reliable verse.

now lets compare Your translations to few translations;from your quote above,(1sam 28: 'consult the spirits'for me....,(King james Version);divine unto me by the familiar spirit,....(NIV)..“Consult a spirit for me,”
'consult the spirit',or 'consult a spirit'or'divine to me a failiar spirit' like the yorubas spiritualists in Nigeria,they do 'consult what they call ifa orunmila spirit' or 'sango spirit',its not different from what the soccerer that saul met consult,they are unclean spirits,demons,if i may say, all shows unscriptural means that are not reliable quotes for christian.

1 Samuel 28:8
King James Version (KJV)
8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

1 Samuel 28:13
King James Version (KJV)
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1 Samuel 28:8

New International Version (NIV)
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

1 Samuel 28:13
New Living Translation (NLT)
13 “Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?”

I see a god[a] coming up out of the earth,”“ she said.

King James Version(kjv)...'i see gods ascending out of the earth'(NLT)..I see a god[a] coming up out of the earth,”“ she said.

im sure you will be embarassed if you have to settle for relying 'what a sorcerer saw as a 'god''gods''spirit' it doest agree at all
and to cap it all,see the warning that God gave to isrealites concerning spiritism and consulting sorceres below;

Deutronomy 18:9-12

9 “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.

chukwudi44,quote

Also were I to apply your definition of "death" to 1 John 5:16-17,it would make a mess of all your assertions and will further strengthen the catholic doctrine of purgatory how ironic!!!

i start to doubt your understanding of english here,pls pardon me for saying that, because,'dead' is different from 'death' even in application,'dead', so also the hebrew word i earlier quoted,'dead'was reffered to as 'nekros' and 'death' reffered to as than'-at-os,you can check it out for yourself.

#'dead', νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
the hebrew word used here for dead nek_ros' 'was figurative'

while

#'death'was
than'-at-os
; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death
pls dont let us mix things together,

now, there is no way that you can apply 'dead' to 'death' in 1 John 5:16-17,except they did not use death!
so since what was used in 1 peter 4:6 was 'dead' nekros..a figurative 'dead'same use with 'dead' in ephesian 2:5,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ.

in 1peter 4:6,there was no even 'a mention of noah and eight souls'in that whole chapter 4 from vs 1-19 of 1peter4,

so,to support your evident even from the verse itself(4) is difficult.
cheers. [/b]

[b]@chukwudi44

pls, seem you mix things up a bit,until we are through with 1 peter 3:19-21,before we can steadily go further, but let me make it clearer;

It is obvious from the passage above that there are to wait for the judgement day.The last time I checked we re still expecting the judgement day.

the bible verse (2peter 2:4)did not neccesarily mention 'the common judgement day' which is meant for the ressurection of the human dead.
but did mention that the 'spirit Angels' were reserved 'unto judjement',not 'judgement day'. where they are kept, that is,the custudy where they are 'awaiting their trial' is the prison.

remember that angels are reffered to as spirits,and not 'souls' see proofs below,


King James Version (KJV)
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
'souls' were used for 'living humans'

you are the only one that has only replace 'spirit in prison' to 'souls' in prison, that is not what bible teach sir.

chukwudi44,quote

If I were to infere from your post you obviously agree in salvation for angels after death but not for humans!!!The last time I checked Jesus died for us humans and not angels

noo,i never agree in salvation for angels after death,because they are 'spirits'already.that is your own assertion.

chukwudi44

If this bible passage was talking about angels and not humans it would also imply that the eight souls that were saved would also be angels abi?

as i have pointed out earlier, you have confused 'spirit' for 'souls' Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:7;7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits)

while souls were used for 'living humans' noah and his household,its clearer now!.

Angels are the disobedience 'spirits in prison' or custudy awaiting 'judgemement,

the other disbedient souls has perished with the flood,and does not exist anywhere,the disobedient souls are dead! confirm it from your bible that soul that sinneth dies Exekiel 18:4,20 it will be strange to you,unfortunately thats what bible says clearly below;
Ezekiel 18:4
King James Version (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

chukwudi44,

1 Peter 4:5-6

New International Version (NIV)

5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

The above above passage makes it abundantly clear that the spirits mentioned in the earlier passage refers to souls of humans who perished in Noah's flood

νεκρός

nekros

nek-ros'
the hebrew word used here for dead nek_ros' unfortunately used is not what you think,it is used differently, ,check the same use of 'dead' nek-ros' below Matthew 8:22
King James Version (KJV)
22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
let me ask, can a dead bury dead? or souls in prison bury theirself? it shows a figurative usage,

you seem to pick this particular bible verse 'out from the point' peter was making to the christian gentiles and jews ,

and to prove this, lets read it from verse one to that verse 6;

1 Peter 4:1-6,

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Peter is talking about those that are spiritually dead – that is, have no understanding of Gods will for what ever reason. They become spiritually alive or active when by the grace of God they accept our Lord Jesus as their saviour by means of the ransom(1 pet.verse 1-3)

Ephesians 2:1-5

“1 And you hath he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 In which in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our manner of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved” (Revised Webster's Version) Before we accepted Jesus ransom we are under the curse of Adams sin and death awaits (verse 1) and Paul was saying that even though they were in the flesh they had been awaken in a spiritual way.

summary,

1#1 peter 4:6 was not reffering to the issue concerning noah and eight souls or the angelic spirits that sinned and kept 'in prison' for judgement.

2#1 peter 4:6 but dead as used in the paragraph agrees with the point made in previous verses 1-3, 'those that are spiritually dead' ephesian 2:5 throws more light, (5 Even when [size=12pt]we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved”
peter was actually reffering to 'preaching to sinners' read the idea from 1 pet 4:1-5.it does not have any connection whatsoever with 1 peter 3:19-21, totally different brother.
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chukwudi44

I would also like you to interpret this bible passages
1 cor 15:29

Now what about those people who are baptised on behalf of the dead. What do they hope to accomplish?if it is true as some claim that the dead are not raised to life,why are those people being baptised for the dead.


1John 5:-16-17

If you see your brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death,you should pray to God who will give them life.This applies to those whoose sins do not lead to death.But there is a sin which lead to death and I do not say you should pray to God about that.ALL WRONGDOINGS IS SIN, BUT THERE IS SIN WHICH DOES NOT LEAD TO DEATH

since this one deals more on baptism,a different issue,i will expound on that but lets reach a conclusion in the above discussion first,dont let us mix things up,at least for people following the tread too.

cheers,[/b]

[b]@chukwudi44,

[b]O.K then;

[b]Matthew 17:24-27



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