₦airaland Forum

typographical errors pls; 'motive' 'atheist'

@Ayomivic

We are arguing with atheists thinking they can come to their senses but it seems they are in control by the evil spirits and these make it difficult for them to accept the truth

sorry to interrupt pls,i slightly dissagree with the above quote, my own motite is to expose the inteligibility of what they believe personally to on lookers or others reading through the tread, so if someone choose to be affected by 'a virus' causing a large deposit of brain in him compare to animal's small capacity not to function effectively through use,then you wonder that the larger part of his brain left and not used through learning of inteligent creations by an intelligent designer is a waste, so an aetheit has created 'a limit' for himself, forcing himself not to reason beyond the nose,and not different from an animal,and so be it, thanks.

DemDem
Down to a bloodsucking leader that told me not to panic when there are bomb blasts since terrorist attack happens worldwide.
Down to a glutonnous leader that eats approx a billion naira worth of food within a year in the midst of abject poverty.
Down to a liar of a leader who promises to curtail govt spendings but instead still enjoys travelling all over the world with battalions.
Down to a heartless leader who told me pointblank on a live program that he doesnt give a damn about any citizen's criticsm.
Down to a evil leader who has in his disposal the list of evil boko sponsors and has refused to act on them therby allowing my innocent countrymen to die in vain.
Down to a deceptive leader who preffers to jollificate with brazillian models while lying to us that he is in an earth summit when his coutrymen are being bombed to death
Down to a deceptive leader who feels having murderers, killers and bunkerers like Asari, Tompolo, Boyloaf and their kinds has non-portfolio advisers is the right way to go.
Down to a leader that sees IBB as his father
Down to the leader of the killer party.etc

[size=14pt]Great article! but what pastor bakare needs now is only for you to send your tithe and offering to his church,to support his trips worldwide,u know that he'd just returned from ukraine, oya oya oya, send it, thats the only way to appreciate that man of God,you can double or triple it, not only words bou cash.[/size]

tunnytox:

You're the one that should get checked mentally, how can you separate politics from religion? How can you detach yourself from the reality of the world you live in?

[size=14pt]oh, christianity has turned to dog eat dog? oh, thats a good example to others, oya ride on,go on sounnnnnnnnnnn.[/size]

@rhymZ,

@Ishilove,
good job, you finnally got the atheists defending, aaah!, they hate being exposed inteligibly,but love sitting on the fence only to realise that most of them are not even well informed in their belief or defence, rather they enjoy that you are the one defending.

@zodiac61,

To lawan now,he believes that he is being persecuted,while up till now he has not released the money after he realised that it was 'marked',

[size=14pt]well he urged nigerians to be calm,as he will be vindicated,its an act of God/Allah.....a story that almajiiris will believe,one way soldier almajiiris will not think twice believing this,
[/size]
im sobbered in my heart because ive lived in the north before and see that these people have rendered a whole generation of people without education unless,they are dressed in white agbada but will at will molest a 12 yr old girls,impregnates them,and a child that result from that will join the multitudes of almajiiris on street,to use them as a tools on innocents , now they are exploding into our society now in the name of boko haram.

where is the money lawan admitedly receive or took since april,2 months ago,...they fund boko haram with it thats it.

i dont know how long we deceive ourselves that we belong to one nigeria,some fools in the south will because of what they eat support these people, [size=14pt]'we are unevenly yoked'[/size] with these people,and do not share the same goal,..they claimed to be born to rule, now when that looks as if it has changed now at least for now,they resolve to 'STEAL' and farouk telling us its an act of God?

ehn,i rest my case.

may not be surprised if he turns to insults as very with atheists.

i mean 'very common with atheists'.

maybe cyrexx has ran out of gas expecially when he lied about crediting a statement below to me without a proof;

[size=14pt]you are the one who claim bible is the only authentic word of god.[/size] so you are the one who has to prove that it is the word of god and dispel all reasonable doubts

about the muslim's beliefs that quran is the word of god, i'm not a muslim, so i dont have to prove anything islamic for you or quote any quranic verses. some muslims have done that. if you cant isit those links i posted earlier, there is nothing i can do further about. it is the muslims who have to convince you, not me.

maybe he is still searching for where i said in on this forum or realised that he has just mistakenly force a statement on me.

any way im still waiting for the proof and may not be surprised if he turns to insults as very with atheists.

@zodiac61
just listen to yourself below,(bolded)

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. U dig
This is just making excuses for a being who,[size=14pt] if he exists, is the greatest murderer ever seen[/size].
It is obvious that have not read your bible.
If you have, you would not come up with tripe like you have above.

As for the topic itself, who does the poster think is responsible for evil/pain/loss?
I am an atheist so I do not attribute anything to a non existent being.
However, if you are a christian, god has to be responsible for everything that happens. Afterall, according to your beliefs, he is omnipotent and every thing that happens, happens because he wills it to happen.
Do not blame satan for your god's inadequacies.

you found yourself existing as a human being with inteligent features but not ready to give the credit to an inteligent being behind it,you are not there when you are formed to determine the kind of being you do like or the exact way you want to appear, it would have been better that you appear as a goat,and ripped of all human right you are enjoying right now undeservedly,

you lived in the only planet that living things exist,in which the distance of the earth from the sun is so programmed in such a way that the earth is neither too cold nor too hot for living things,or the fact that as the earth and other planets revolves round the sum,they never jam,but

then you dismiss that as not a proof of an inteligent being.what else

just look at the planet earth alone, are you not too infinitestimal in it?,now you are not ready to learn about God,but (if) you are a responsible person, and you are being critisized by someone that you provide for,you will demand respect from such a person.
how much more God who provide inteligent creatures and made human their king,cant we wait and study his ways?
maybe God thought that maybe someone might come from you or your family to serve him that is why he spare you as a human because he gives his creatures time to decide.

if inteligent creation exist by accident you cant prove it, but one thing stands out;
GARBAGE IN,GARBAGE OUT.that is if datas are not inteligently organised,it will never give inteligent result,never.your cloth fabrics was inteligently hewn together forming a pattern,before it was sewn to exact size of yours, you admire the color and the size,hence you buy it,but have you ever being to a cloth factory before? there you will see hundred of millons of piecces of tiny pieces of fabrics separeted by several units and rotates round the industrial machine forming cloth,with awe you wonder who sat down to design these,and wonder if what you pay to buy your cloth really worth it,..anyway that is if you ever have the appreciating faculty or you have rendered it dead and unresponsive and thats why you are not better than a goat in that state that you have put yourself.

it is pure waste of time debating with self-made-goats, anyway im not going to be surprised if you insult,go ooooon.

@cyrexx,

@cyrexx,
your claim below shows that you are so sure of what quaran contains(bolded),

[size=14pt]a muslim can look at his quran and do exactly what you are doing and claim that his holy book is the word of god.[/size]
he can purposely read some meaning that the author did not mean into his quran. e.g.jew looking at and describing galaxies, seeing microscopic organisms, describing DNA etc etc.

now, the onus of proof now lies on you to proove [size=14pt]'in your own words pls not sites'[/size] how genuine your claims are about 'accuracy of events contained in the bible compared to quaran' (note bolded words in blue expecially,and site a corresponding pls,and failure to do that,ah,may expose something anyway) answer below questions to clarify your assertion;

present on this thread evidence that the koran contain scientific facts and not miracles.
Pls. Site the koran evidence in black and white so that those reading can relate to it and benefit, not all readers will want to go to the thread u quoted. And NOTE, NOT MIRACLES BUT SCIENTIFIC FACTS.
Or[size=14pt] verifiable prophesies. Note, eg. the extinction of Babylon = 50miles from Iran. Site ur reference clearly[/size].

we onlookers on the tread are following claims and counter claims if they are genuine.thanks,waiting pls.

@cyrexx

1. are you saying the only prayer that god can answer is prayer for god's kingdom to come?

not only that,but he can answer meaningfull prayers if he chooses to do so,expecially if it works with his purpose

2. are you saying that he cant answer other prayers too for the benefit of humans now now, or he is just in the futuristic coming kingdom?

he can answer the prayer of the righteous ones by providing for their basic needs.

so,there is Actually an awesome God, a hearer of prayer.

@kay 17;

Kay 17: there is a fundamental problem here; what is the authority to say the bible is the word of god?

sorry the bible is 'not' the word of your own lesser 'god',so to say, which hereinafter means that this forum may not be the right one for you.and excuse us pls.

@image123

[/b]

[b]@chukwudi44

[b]@chukwudi44

[size=14pt]i want to appreciate your loyalty to your catholic faith, but unfortunately, your own people has disappointed you, how?[/size]
your quote below;

The whole essence of this thread is whether purgatory is scriptural or not.This I have been able to proove with the aforementioned bible passages [size=14pt]it's scriptural basis.I wonder how you arrived at that conclusion[/size] despite having read all these bible passages.

[size=14pt]why i arrived at that conclusion willbe treated below.[/size]
in you previous defination 1and 2,of purgatory,(quoted below)

Purgatory or state of purgation is alluded to in several other bible passages besides the ones I have already mentioned on this thread. 1 cor 3:15 mentions that some people would be saved through fire while others would not suffer any loss based on the quality of their works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

New International Version (NIV)

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

66. chukwudi44: Quote Post

Also in the gospel of mattew 12:32 Jesus made mention of forgiveness "in the age to come" signifying that people could also be forgiven after this present age.

Matthew 12:32

New International Version (NIV)

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[size=14pt]you quoted mattew 12 :32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, in your defination,and it agrees with the catholic encyclopedia's same bible quotes below;
[/size]

[size=14pt]After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”[/size]

but then,when i read the bible verses,they were taken completely out of context,only for me to see that you have deliberatey excluded accompanying quoted maccabbes (2 Maccabees 12:39-45)quoted first,for people to understand the next quoted mattew 12 :32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15,

now,it has been established by catholics themselves that adopted maccabees as a scripture,and included it in its scripture,isnt it?

you claimed that catholic 'purgatory' concept is scriptural, but it contradicts the catholic's basis of 'purgatory,you said that you dont know how i arrived at that,but i believed that you should have dig into the catholic 'fundamental beliefs' before you choose to defend it.but i want you to confirm my findings,and i want others to 'search for my quotes from the catholic encyclopedia 'as my witness' as a confirm proof against your assertion that 'porgatory is scriptural'.

they say that 'you cant be rome,than the pope',We also thank God that technology allows us to have quick access to 'recorded history of the catholics'and the 'catholic encyclopedias',thats why i loved white men,they keep records,so;
[size=16pt]what is the catholic's basis for purgatory?,
lets see what catholic itself admits to be their basis for 'purgatory' quoting from their encyclopedia;
[/size]
[size=14pt](1) the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034)
“In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”


(2)New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XI, p. 1036, 1037.

“Many think that the total suffering of purgatory is identified with the awareness of the temporary postponement of the beatific vision, although the more common view holds that, in addition to this, there is some positive punishment . . . In the Latin Church it has been generally maintained that this pain is imposed through real fire. This is not, however, essential to belief in purgatory. It is not even certain. . . . Even if one chooses, with the theologians of the East, to reject the idea of suffering induced by fire, one should be careful not to exclude all positive suffering from purgatory. There are still real affliction, sorrow, chagrin, shame of conscience, and other spiritual sorrows capable of inflicting true pain on the soul. . . . One should remember, at any rate, that in the midst of their sufferings these souls also experience great joy over the certainty of salvation.”—

(3)“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9.


(4)“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.

confirm these first i dont mind wasting time to proove it from 'catholics own books'
[/size]
search 'the libraries' or go to the'net libraries' if you dont mind i can send you volumes of 'catholic encyclopedia in pdf files, to copy,just give me your mail or i can send you their confirm website,i think you must be aquainted all with these undisputable facts coming out from catholics own books .

now, if purgatory's basis is tradition, then can you say that catholics are not guilty of why jesus condemn the pharisees;

Matthew 15:3-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 He answered and said to them, [size=14pt]“Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? [/size]4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c] [size=14pt]Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition.
[/size]

now,
The written tradition of the pharisee was in loggerhead with the law commandment,and jesus rebuked them.

The bible itself was confirmed 66 books 39 OT and 27 NT,with 40 writers ,and see another warning;Revelation 22:18-19;

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


Deuteronomy 4:2

[size=14pt]You shall not add to the word that I command you, [/size]nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him[size=14pt]. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.[/size]


now we have an addition of maccabees,teaching tradition of men against the teaching of the bible.

my point here is that the catholics encyclopedia admitted to this error,far before you(chukwudi) were born
so dont start another topic of when bible was called bible or not,because if we go into that,the page may not contain us and people reading will be bored, all CONFIRMED bibles holy scriptures are 66 books,39 OT and 27 NT,with 40 writers,and God himself the author.

unholy scriptures also exist and that is why christians are warned;

1 John 4:1
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but [size=14pt]test[/size] the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
thess.5:21
21 Test all things; [size=14pt]hold fast what is good.


[/size]"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:44-45).
"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25-26).
"Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).
what do we learn here?

[size=14pt]1# maccabees is not 'part of holy scriptures'
2# catholics admits that based on 'comparing maccabees with other bible verses as in mathew and corinthians above' they admitted that purgatory is not based on 'holy scripture'but tradition.the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) confim pls
[/size][/b]

[b]@chukwudi44

[size=14pt]i want to appreciate your loyalty to your catholic faith, but unfortunately, your own people has disappointed you, how?[/size]
your quote below;

The whole essence of this thread is whether purgatory is scriptural or not.This I have been able to proove with the aforementioned bible passages [size=14pt]it's scriptural basis.I wonder how you arrived at that conclusion[/size] despite having read all these bible passages.

[size=14pt]why i arrived at that conclusion willbe treated below.[/size]
in you previous defination 1and 2,of purgatory,(quoted below)

Purgatory or state of purgation is alluded to in several other bible passages besides the ones I have already mentioned on this thread. 1 cor 3:15 mentions that some people would be saved through fire while others would not suffer any loss based on the quality of their works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

New International Version (NIV)

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

66. chukwudi44: Quote Post

Also in the gospel of mattew 12:32 Jesus made mention of forgiveness "in the age to come" signifying that people could also be forgiven after this present age.

Matthew 12:32

New International Version (NIV)

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[size=14pt]you quoted mattew 12 :32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, in your defination,and it agrees with the catholic encyclopedia's same bible quotes below;
[/size]

[size=14pt]After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”[/size]

but then,when i read the bible verses,they were taken completely out of context,only for me to see that you have deliberatey excluded accompanying quoted maccabbes (2 Maccabees 12:39-45)quoted first,for people to understand the next quoted mattew 12 :32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15,

now,it has been established by catholics themselves that adopted maccabees as a scripture,and included it in its scripture,isnt it?

you claimed that catholic 'purgatory' concept is scriptural, but it contradicts the catholic's basis of 'purgatory,you said that you dont know how i arrived at that,but i believed that you should have dig into the catholic 'fundamental beliefs' before you choose to defend it.but i want you to confirm my findings,and i want others to 'search for my quotes from the catholic encyclopedia 'as my witness' as a confirm proof against your assertion that 'porgatory is scriptural'.

they say that 'you cant be rome,than the pope',We also thank God that technology allows us to have quick access to 'recorded history of the catholics'and the 'catholic encyclopedias',thats why i loved white men,they keep records,so;
[size=16pt]what is the catholic's basis for purgatory?,
lets see what catholic itself admits to be their basis for 'purgatory' quoting from their encyclopedia;
[/size]
[size=14pt](1) the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034)
“In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”


(2)New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XI, p. 1036, 1037.

“Many think that the total suffering of purgatory is identified with the awareness of the temporary postponement of the beatific vision, although the more common view holds that, in addition to this, there is some positive punishment . . . In the Latin Church it has been generally maintained that this pain is imposed through real fire. This is not, however, essential to belief in purgatory. It is not even certain. . . . Even if one chooses, with the theologians of the East, to reject the idea of suffering induced by fire, one should be careful not to exclude all positive suffering from purgatory. There are still real affliction, sorrow, chagrin, shame of conscience, and other spiritual sorrows capable of inflicting true pain on the soul. . . . One should remember, at any rate, that in the midst of their sufferings these souls also experience great joy over the certainty of salvation.”—

(3)“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9.


(4)“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.

confirm these first i dont mind wasting time to proove it from 'catholics own books'
[/size]
search 'the libraries' or go to the'net libraries' if you dont mind i can send you volumes of 'catholic encyclopedia in pdf files, to copy,just give me your mail or i can send you their confirm website,i think you must be aquainted all with these undisputable facts coming out from catholics own books .

now, if purgatory's basis is tradition, then can you say that catholics are not guilty of why jesus condemn the pharisees;

Matthew 15:3-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 He answered and said to them, [size=14pt]“Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? [/size]4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c] [size=14pt]Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition.
[/size]

now,
The written tradition of the pharisee was in loggerhead with the law commandment,and jesus rebuked them.

The bible itself was confirmed 66 books 39 OT and 27 NT,with 40 writers ,and see another warning;Revelation 22:18-19;

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


Deuteronomy 4:2

[size=14pt]You shall not add to the word that I command you, [/size]nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him[size=14pt]. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.[/size]


now we have an addition of maccabees,teaching tradition of men against the teaching of the bible.

my point here is that the catholics encyclopedia admitted to this error,far before you(chukwudi) were born
so dont start another topic of when bible was called bible or not,because if we go into that,the page may not contain us and people reading will be bored, all CONFIRMED bibles holy scriptures are 66 books,39 OT and 27 NT,with 40 writers,and God himself the author.

unholy scriptures also exist and that is why christians are warned;

1 John 4:1
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but [size=14pt]test[/size] the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
thess.5:21
21 Test all things; [size=14pt]hold fast what is good.


[/size]"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:44-45).
"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25-26).
"Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).
what do we learn here?

[size=14pt]1# maccabees is not 'part of holy scriptures'
2# catholics admits that based on 'comparing maccabees with other bible verses as in mathew and corinthians above' they admitted that purgatory is not based on 'holy scripture'but tradition.the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) confim pls
[/size][/b]

@chukwudi44,cgift

[size=14pt][i]maybe i should rephrase my question again, is purgatory based 'on tradition'? since it is not mentioned in the bible[/i][/size]

[b] @Cgift

So, [size=14pt]that Purgatory is not mentioned should not be an issue [/size]because even Rapture for instance is never mentioned in the Bible but we have given it the name to describe an event described in Thessalonians concerning being caught up in the air with Christ in his 2nd Coming. In the same way, Purgatory i guess, is inferential and is the name chosen to describe the events / scenes Catholics are trying to paint with the scriptures Chukwudi has been meting out since.

cant you see that if we continue to compare and contrast bible verses without 'solid bases' from the bible,the argument will continue and get us nowhere, but providing scriptural bases will 'summarise'our points,
i have not admitted to believe in rapture,so it goes to no issue here, but
[size=14pt]does the fact that someone is a thief (so to say,an example) does it justify you 'to steal'?
[/size]
also,
your point above seem to [size=14pt]undermine warnings in these bible[/size] verse below;

[size=14pt]
Revelation 22:18-19;

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


Deuteronomy 4:2

You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.[/size][/b]

[b][size=14pt]FABRICATING AN ISSUE OUT OF NOTHING!,[/size]

ADVOCATES OF TITHES HAVE OUT OF GREEDINESS SEEK A WAY TO ESTABLISH TITHING AS LEGITIMATE, BECAUSE THE LEVITICAL TITHING THAT ENDS ON THE CROSS SEEMS TO BE A WEAK DEFENCE TO PROVE THEIR CASE,THEY MAKE AN UNPROVED ASSERTION FIRSTLY THAT THE 'PRE-LAW' ABRAHAM TENTH PART 'TRIBUTE OFFERING'TO MELCHI GIVES THEM THE AUTHORITY TO STILL RECEIVE TITHES,AND THAT EVEN END TO THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD DOES NOT AFFECT TITHING,BASED ON THE TENTH PART TRIBUTE OFFERING RECEIVED BY MELCHI FROM ABRAHAM, THEY HOLD ON TO UNPROVED AND UNEXISTING 'PRIESTHOOD ORDER OF MELCHZEDECK' WHICH ORIGINALLY THEY DERIVED FROM 'AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHIDECK'
IN BOOK OF PSALM 110:4, AND HEBREWS. OUTSIDE THESE CHAPTERS,THE ONUS OF PROOF UPON THEM TO PROOF WHERE 'PRIESTHOOD ORDER OF MELCHIZEDECK' INSTEAD OF PRIESTHOOD 'SIMILAR' OR 'LIKE FOR LIKE' TO JESUS,THEIR CLAIMS OUTSIDE THESE BOOK OF PSALM 110:4 AND HEBREWS PROVED ABORTIVE.THEY HAVE NO SOLID BACKING.

UNFORTUNATELY, THEY HAVE 'DELVE' USING WORDLY WISDOM TO EVALUATE BIBLE,AND IT IS JUST HOW THE PROPHETS IN THE BIBLE PREDICTS THEM,THEY SEE THE SCRIPTURES AS [size=14pt]'FOOLISHNESS' EVEN CRITISIZING APOSTLE PAULS INSPIRED WRITINGS,TO THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING,[/size]INSTEAD OF ALLOWING THEIRSELVES TO BE TAUGHT BY THE SCRIPTURES,THEY SEEK 'DEAD TECHNICALITIES'AND PHILOSOPHIES TO BACK UP THEIR CLAIMS,DISREGARDING WARNINGS AS TO THE FOOLISHNESS OF WORDLY WISDOM WHICH 'CAUSED THE WISE NOT TO KNOW GOD'.LETS READ BELOW; NEED TO AKNOWLEDGE THESE;

1 Corinthians 1:20-22


20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, [size=14pt]the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
[/size]

2 Corinthians 10:4-5

4, For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5,[size=14pt] casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,[/size]

1 Corinthians 2:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13[size=14pt]Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[/size]

Acts 4:13
King James Version (KJV)
13[size=14pt]Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them[/size], that they had been with Jesus.

NOW,LETS COMPARE THE TWO BIBLE VERSES BELOW;

Hebrews 7:11
King James Version (KJV)
11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there [size=14pt]that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec[/size], and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for [size=14pt]that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, [/size]

[b]Similitude
G3665
ὁμοιότης
homoiotēs
hom-oy-ot'ace

From G3664; resemblance: - like (as), similitude.


GOING FURTHER TO G3664 WHERE IT WAS DERIVED, SEE THE MEANING OF WHAT IS RENDERED IN HEB 7:15 AS

‘’AFTER THE 'SIMILITUDE' OF MELCHISEDEC THERE ARISETH ANOTHER PRIEST’’,


G3664

ὅμοιος

homoios

hom'-oy-os

From the base of G3674 ; similar (in appearance or character): - {like} + manner.




Psa 110:4

The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order (H1700) of Melchizedek.

H1700
דּברה
dibrâh
dib-raw'
Feminine of H1697 ; a {reason} suit or style: - {cause} {end} {estate} {order} regard.

THE WORD RENDERED “ORDER” HERE MEANS PROPERLY A 'WORD' ; 'A THING', 'A MATTER'; HENCE, 'A WAY' OR 'MANNER'. THE MEANING HERE IS,
THAT HE WOULD BE A PRIEST “AFTER THE MANNER” OF MELCHIZEDEK; OR,

SUCH A PRIEST AS HE WAS. HE WOULD NOT BE OF THE TRIBE OF LEVI; HE WOULD NOT BE IN THE REGULAR LINE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, BUT HE WOULD RESEMBLE, IN THE CHARACTERISTICS OF HIS OFFICE, THIS ANCIENT PRIEST-KING, COMBINING IN HIMSELF THE TWO FUNCTIONS OF PRIEST AND KING; AS A PRIEST, STANDING ALONE; NOT DERIVING HIS AUTHORITY FROM ANY LINE OF PREDECESSORS; AND HAVING NO SUCCESSORS.


IM ASKING NOW, WILL THE BIBLE CONTRADICT ITSELF ? IN HEBREW 7:11 AND HEB 7:15? OR PSALM 110:4?

NOW, THE PARTICULAR HEB 7, SUPPLIED US WITH ESTABLISHED PROOFS POINTING TO THE TRUE MEANING OF WHAT IS RENDERED 'ORDER';THAT IS;RESEMBLANCE, OR 'MANNER' OR 'LIKE' FOR 'LIKE',

PLEASE CONSIDER BELOW,WHAT THIS VERSES INCLUDED ARE ALL ABOUT;quoted(in blue)below

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

THAT IS 'HAD IT BEEN THAT' LEVITICUS PRIESTHOOD COULD HAVE ACHIEVE PERFECTION? THERE WOULD BE 'NO FURTHER NEED' FOR 'ANOTHER PRIEST, WHICH MEANS THE ALLEGED 'MELCHIZEDECH ISSUE WOULD HAVE NO BASIS AND RENDERED 'USELESS'

LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD,SAME AS AARONIC OR ALSO KNOWN AS AARONIC PRIESTHOOD, HAS A BASIS THAT ACTUALLY DID NOT PUT US IN THE DARK THAT IS;

(The Aaronic Priesthood is also called the Levitical Priesthood. The word Levitical comes from the name Levi, one of the twelve sons of Israel. Moses and Aaron, who were brothers, were Levites.

When the Aaronic Priesthood was given to Israel, Aaron and his sons received the presiding and administrative responsibility. The male members of all other Levite families were put in charge of the ceremonies of the tabernacle, including the Mosaic law of sacrifice).

ALSO WE ARE 'NOT IN THE DARK' CONCERNING THE MANNER OF WHICH CHRIST 'WAS APPOINTED' A PRIEST 'SIMILAR' OR 'LIKE' OR 'IN RESEMBLANCE' OF MELCHIZEDECK THE ACIENT PRIEST, AS A ;PRIEST-KING, COMBINING IN HIMSELF THE TWO FUNCTIONS OF PRIEST AND KING,
AND JESUS 'DECLARED AS KING OF KINGS,AND LORD OF LORDS' WHAT A FITTING AND UNDISPUTABLE SIMILARITIES?


THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT MELCHIZECK THAT WOULD WARRANT 'AN ALLEGED' 'PRISTHOOD 'ORDER', IT DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE THERE IS NO ''PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT TO 'PROVE OR STAND' AS A RECOGNISED AND ACCEPTED PROOF,OUTSIDE HEBREWS, AND PSALM11O:4 EXCEPT MERE SPECULATIONS,

SO WE ARE TOTALLY IN THE DARK NOT FROM THE BIBLE BUT FROM THE AGITATORS OR ADVOCATES OF UNEXISTING 'PRIESTHOOD 'ORDER' ALLEGED TO BE OF MELCHIZEDECK AND THATS THE ONLY PART THAT REMAINED AN ARTIFICIAL MISTERY.

WE ALSO HAVE A KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST 'ASCENTION TO PRIEST' OUTSIDE LEVITICUS ORDER;HEB 7:13,14;

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood

IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT [size=14pt]THOSE WHO SEEK 'UNPROVED PRIESTHOOD ORDER'OUTSIDE THE REAL TEACHING DID NOT EVEN HAVE 'AGREED DEFINATION' TO SUIT THEIR CONCEPT,[/size]BUT THEN GOD IS NOT 'OF CONFUSION' 1COR 14:33, BUT WE DO WELL TO SEEK THE WARNING BELOW;

2 Peter 2
New King James Version (NKJV)

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.


[/b]

[b]@chukwudi44

your definations of purgatory below;

Purgatory or state of purgation is alluded to in several other bible passages besides the ones I have already mentioned on this thread. 1 cor 3:15 mentions that some people would be saved through fire while others would not suffer any loss based on the quality of their works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

New International Version (NIV)

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

66. chukwudi44: Quote Post

Also in the gospel of mattew 12:32 Jesus made mention of forgiveness "in the age to come" signifying that people could also be forgiven after this present age.

Matthew 12:32

New International Version (NIV)

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Purgatory in accordance with catholic teachings is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who after departing this life in God's grace are not entirely free from venial faults.


I must add that the catholic church distinguishes between two classes of sin;
venial sin in which state the person would head to purgatory or purgation preparatory to ascension to heaven.

Mortal sin in which state the sinner will head to hell for enternity

Biblical backing for this can be found in 1John 5:16-17.

While in purgatory,beleivers are enjoined to pray for the souls of the departed so as to accelerate their cleansing and ascention into heaven.

While is pertinent to add that the ord purgatory is not mentioned in the bible so also are such words like"trinity","incarnation" and even the "bible".There are merely used to describe events/conditions mentioned in the scriptures

[size=14pt]your definations of purgatory above when compared with the catholic encyclopedia,s defination below 'it agrees with each other'even the quoted bible passages are same with the encyclopedia in 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034
[/size]
Definition: “According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034)

While is pertinent to add that the ord purgatory is not mentioned in the bible so also are such words like"trinity","incarnation" and even the "bible".There are merely used to describe events/conditions mentioned in the scriptures

[size=14pt]also i aknowledge your assersion above,that purgatory is not mentioned in the bible, my question still remains that,is porgatory a holy bible scriptures teaching? or guessing? or speculation?, because bible as a whole has its own teaching outside other scriptures that distinguishes it from scriptures that are 'not holy',so pls explain,im waiting.[/size][/b]

[b]@chukwudi44,

now lets connect this discussion in 1 pet chapter 4,from vs 1-6;

1 Peter 4:1-6
King James Version (KJV)
1 Peter 4

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


verse 1 aknowledges why christ died for christians;

2[i]That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
[/i]
verse 2-4 widely aknowledges the sins that they are used to and the need to change.

5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


verse 5 aknowledged the repercusions of failure to change,we shall give account to the one with the power to judge.

[color=#000099[i]]6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit[/i].
[/color]

verse 6 continues that,'for this cause' the gospel was preached to those 'dead' (nakros)in sin 'figurative' in 2-4 above,former way of life, but to 'live according to God in the spirit',


[size=14pt]see Gods purpose below;

what is Gospel, meaning "good news" or "glad tidings". meant for the sinners.

1peter 3:19 did not mention 'Gospel preached to the spirits in prison'
[/size]

John 3:17
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,[size=14pt] but that the world through Him might be saved.[/size]

remember that 'Gospel preaching' is for sinners

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

- Mark 1:15
now at this junction,

[size=14pt]pls i want you to give a detailed meaning and defination of 'porgatory' in you next post.[/size]



[/b]

sorry ephesian 2:5 and 1 pet,4:6 shared dead as nakros figurative.

1pet4;6
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that[size=14pt] are dead[/size], that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, [size=14pt]but live [/size]according to God in the spirit.

'dead' and 'live' here in vs 6 were rendered figurative,so these preached to here are 'dead' in christ but were made to [size=14pt]'live[/size] according to God in spirit'

note the error pls,
1pet 4:5

'dead' there is not figurative but literal.its real dead and the living,i just check it out now.

@ chukwudi44

This is not what is contained in 1 Pet 4:5

What that verse actually says is

"Who shallgive account to judge the l LIVING and the dead"

I wonder why you changed LIVING to QUICK?

i dont need to do that, im quoting from king james version

1 Peter 4:5
King James Version (KJV)
5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

pls confirm again king james version.now

@ pastorAIO
I respected you,and if you did not react to my post,i will not have react to yours,see my comment yo your post;

your quote,pastor

so the metaphorical use of the word 'dead' in matthew must now be automatically applied to 2Peter too. Na wa o! All this strengthens my arguments about the lack of rigour in interpretations.

When Jesus says that The God of Abraham Isaac and Esau cannot be the god of the dead, what does that say about the patriarchs?

Now as a pastor,if actually you are,you are the one that wrote the (bolded one above) 'abraham isaac and Esau,
i need a clarification because as a pastor,maybe you must have read something like that which i have not,then i wrote below;

my quote

can you kindly prove the bible verse that mention God of Abraham Isaac and Esau'to support your claim,
its very important because we want to establish 'what the bible teaches' and it can be done by quoting correctly bible verses to support our claims.

i start by saying,'can you kindly, where im i rude here, now see your reply below as a supposed pastor,i ve never discused ever with you,just see what you wrote;

pastorAIO'S quote

This Thread is a brilliant study in the process of biblical interpretations. real_berni, starting with the notion that the dead cannot be saved and that there is nothing that can be done for the dead, must now turn to the bible and read certain passages through a contorting lense. And those passages that cannot be contorted must simply be ignored. And simple arguments must be misunderstood. For instance the issue of 'spirits' being applied to humans in the episode of Endor must be misunderstood as chukwudi's proof of purgatory.

And woe unto the guy who makes a mistake and calls the patriarch Abraham, Isaac and ESAU, rather than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The entire thread will then become a discussion about the mistake, unless the guy is fast enough to realise the ploy and knock it straight on the head.

you now start to cast 'woe' on yourself when you are the one that first added Esau, what kind of human being will cast woe on his self, pls go and pray,no one is fighting here, see chukwudi himself is cool headed and mature.please we peacefull here.