Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / NewStats: 3,194,698 members, 7,955,638 topics. Date: Sunday, 22 September 2024 at 11:39 AM |
Nairaland Forum / SilverSniper's Profile / SilverSniper's Posts
(1) (2) (of 2 pages)
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:53am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: My statement was about possible political bias in their accounts. Once again, I don't think they were just repeating myth and legend in their accounts. But I have demonstrated how this weak contention was in fact rendered void considering the historical fact that Oya reigned supreme over Benin during some course of history. It just eclipsed Benin in power at one point, but "reigned supreme over" is quite unlikely. Our digression to "rather than Ajaka" is counterintuitive. The reason for leaving Eweka according to the account is that only a son with some Edo heritage will be the best fit --- or something along that line. The point was about the account that makes Oranmiyan the first Alafin (rather than Ajaka). I had read accounts in the past which portrayed Oranmiyan leaving Oyo and Ajaka becoming the first Alaafin, but I guess those accounts are less accepted. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:44am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: Oh okay, just a typo. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:43am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: Actually, I just said that it wasn't relevant to the initial point I made and in the later post I said that he doesn't say where he got that account from. That's all. I didn't he say he was not credible about being told that account about descent. I'm sure somebody told him; it's just not clear who. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:36am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: 1842? No, slightly earlier though I get your point. But anyway, the situation is, if anything, the contrary. Lots of European written sources on Oyo are very much second or third hand and a few are even clearly just rumor and hearsay. Some of these sources, despite being not being based on direct European visits to Oyo are often plausible, informative or useful to historians despite that. There were lots of biased accounts against Benin in the decades leading up to, and immediately following the 1897 conquest by the British so I don't know what you mean by "enjoying partiality". Multiple colonial sources are explicit in their condemnation of and criticisms of Benin, so I don't see that angle at all. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:29am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: It's not inadmissible. I never said it was, it's just not clear what the source is for that information, whereas the other information is attributed to an Alaafin. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:27am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: This is going in circles. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:26am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: The reference to "legend or myth" was strictly in reference to the whole story of Oranmiyan leaving Eweka in Benin then becoming the first Alafin (rather than Ajaka, and not returning to Ife) that you referenced in your first post that I initially quoted, and the inferences you were drawing from that about how ranking might have worked. You misinterpreted what I said there but I could have been clearer. As for Crowther or Johnson, I simply said there was a possible issue of bias resulting in incorporation of partial accounts or political angles, that's all. I wasn't saying they were mere myth-makers. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:21am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: No, I saw the reference to Willett, but Willett was providing an alternative explanation for why remains might not be found (and hence not finding remains would not disprove the idea) and not asserting that he believed the idea about burials of the Benin kings there as being fact. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:15am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: Sure, it also says that, but I highlighted it in the context of what an Alaafin himself said to a British official about the past relations simply as a response to that particular statement from TAO (in the post I quoted) about the two kings. The British official doesn't say what his source is for that part of his account about descent anyway, whereas his source for his other statement is an Alaafin. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:11am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: There is no contradiction - I never said that there was not a point when Oyo was more powerful. I questioned this idea of basing "ranking" at a point in time merely on legends and myths (or variations of myths) in the past rather than what the reality was on the ground as far as power. That said, that does not preclude the possibility of partiality or bias being present in some accounts like those of Johnson and Crowther. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:01am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: The Alaafin in 1911 seems to have provided his own idea of the power the kings of Benin had once held, from an African (Oyo Yoruba) perspective. Olfert Dapper is not the only account (whether European or African) from centuries ago describing the king of Benin as very powerful, so nothing unique about Dapper's perspective - it lines up fairly well with African and European views from the past. Anyway, the statement from Clapperton: "In the evening we had a visit from the king, to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war." - Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 5:48am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I think you misread the post. Asibong Okon was merely citing a British article, from the United Empire book, and he repeated what was stated in that sentence almost word for word. So he couldn't have lied about that. Maybe you think the British governor lied about what he was told, but that would be a different issue entirely (how reliable are colonial authorities, or Europeans generally, in their accounts of what they were told by African rulers). My point about Johnson is that his pro-Oyo bias is significant enough that multiple historians have commented on it - significant enough that he promotes the idea in his book The History of the Yorubas that the Ooni of Ife was a descendant of a mere shrine keeper, rather than real royalty (a myth which had actually been prevalent in other parts of Yorubaland even before Johnson wrote his book; the historian Robin Law cites other instances of this myth about the Ooni of Ife being some kind of shrine keeper or non-royalty existing in other parts of Yorubaland dating from before and after Johnson's book was published). So Johnson was someone who could - and apparently did - incorporate myths or legends that had a sort of political angle to them into his historical account. As for Crowther I was merely speculating or alluding to how he may not have been an impartial source since he may have simply been repeating a pro-Oyo account which was prevalent in his time. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 5:40am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: That is quoting Akinola though, not Willett. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 5:25am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I am familiar with what Crowther asserted and what Johnson claimed as well (though neither of them might be completely impartial sources). That's not new to me but my point with that quote is that one monarchy being "above" another politically in the past can't simply be determined by recollections of popular myths, legends, etc. if practical reality on the ground pointed to something different. My own view is that at one point Benin was more powerful than Oyo, then Benin's power declined (due to civil war), then Oyo was more powerful than Benin, then Oyo's power declined (due to a civil war - an Alafin of Oyo in the early 1800s told a British explorer, Hugh Clapperton, that "he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him" in his attempt to defeat the rebels) and then Benin was again more powerful (though not as relatively powerful as it had been in the past), then not long after Nigeria was eventually conquered and annexed by the British. I don't think a story like that one (in which Oranmiyan doesn't return to Ife after establishing his son Ajaka as the first Alafin - so it is actually different from variations on it that I have read in the past) that can be used to determine historical power relations. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:40am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I read Willett's articles and books years ago, including his article about the excavations and I don't recall the statement he makes affirming that the site was definitely used for burials of the kings of Benin, hence my question to you. I am just asking where he affirms or upheld that the site really was used to bury the kings of Benin. I am aware that he does not "rule it out" and stated that the absence of finds of human remains doesn't disprove a tradition but that is not the same thing as him as upholding the idea as true. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:32am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: "The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36 Asibong Okon was referring to this: "This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620 https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute Forgot the British governor's name (I looked through the United Empire book years ago, but didn't make any notes), but that 1911 quote is authentic. You can make what you want out of the quote. From my own perspective, power relations in a political context are usually based on realpolitik and determined by the practical facts on the ground, not necessarily myths or legends.
|
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:19am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: There is a difference between saying something could still be possible (not ruling it out) even though the evidence at hand doesn't affirm it, and "upholding" (believing) something to be true. I don't think that is so confusing. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:06am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: Yes, I know he didn't "rule it out", but I don't recall where he affirmed or upheld that it was demonstrated by the burial pits. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:04am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: Could you direct me to where Willett said he upheld (i.e. believed) the idea that that was what the site was really used for before or after the excavation? Or did he just acknowledge that there was some tradition about that? From what I remember from my reading of Willet's articles, books, he doesn't seem to just accept Nigerian traditions as necessarily being factual just because they exist. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:58am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I think I wasn't as clear as I should have been about what I was really saying. I wasn't saying that they weren't necessarily burial pits, but instead saying they were probably for (burying) someone or something else, before they were reinterpreted as having to do with burying Benin kings, since their dates don't fit at all. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:54am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: Charcoal samples from the pits were dated though. Yes, a site could be put to a different use over the course of time, but of course those burial pits aren't evidence of that, given the discrepancy in date for them. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:41am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: How does it change anything? The burial pits, and the whole site, are from a completely different time (several centuries earlier) from when they could be used for what they supposedly were used for. The place is most likely something that has been reinterpreted to something different from whatever its actual historical function was. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:35am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I never said human remains have to be found, but I think you might be missing the point that the whole site is centuries too early. That's all I was pointing out. You can conclude what you want from that. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:33am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I was just directing you to an academic source which had a different idea about the story, not saying I "trust it" as some sort of confirmed truth. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:30am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: lol, no nobody "went to hire me". The entire site is way too early. I've read the actual archaeological report years ago. There's nothing there that suggests that it was being used as some burial site for Benin Obas. It was most likely used for something else. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:25am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: Actually, in the article, Eisenhofer provides a suggestion of a much earlier antecedent himself, in a note on p. 159. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:23am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: The archaeological excavations of the "Orun Oba Ado" site established that the burial pits there date to several centuries before they could possibly have been used to bury any Obas of Benin. They are dated from about 560 AD (mid-6th century) to around 900 AD at the latest. The dates don't work at all. Probably it was used for something else for centuries then someone with an active imagination decided to portray it as a burial site of kings and the idea stuck or became some sort of tradition. It's not uncommon for traditions to arise out of myths of course. |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 3:11am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: It may not be that simple. Stefan Eisenhofer (an academic, and a historian affiliated with the University of Munich and the Museum für Völkerkunde in Munich), suggested the story as possibly having earlier antecedents. Reference: Stefan Eisenhofer - "The Origins of the Benin Kingship in the Works of Jacob Egharevba", History in Africa, Vol. 22 (1995) |
Culture / Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 2:55am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: Whether the Ekaladerhan story is true or not, Dmitri Bondarenko was wrong when he stated that "However, a student of ancient Benin might feel obliged to reject the apocryphal versions without hesitation as deliberately unauthentic. There are no their records made before the early 1970s ..." R.E. Bradbury actually documented the story in the 1950s. It is in the archive of his field notes. "They went on to discredit the palace’s assertions that the last known Ogiso-era prince, the exiled Ekaladerhan, was identical to the Ifẹ dynasty’s founder Oduduwa, a viewpoint they attributed to the late Ọba Erediauwa. While the Ọba did publicize this historical version, he was not its originator, for it had already been recorded at least as early as the 1950s, when R. E. Bradbury was researching in Benin..." "Although Bradbury’s archives are publicly available at the Birmingham University Library, they are not digitized and therefore authors such as Bondarenko (“Advent of the Second [Oba] Dynasty, 2003, 68 and Akinola (“The Origin of the Eweka Dynasty of Benin, 1976) attribute the Ekaladerhan story to shifting political goals in the 1970s. This alternative story, however, existed at least two decades before. Reference: Kathy Curnow - "Sensemaking in Benin Kingdom Oral Traditions: Repetitive Recall of Actual and Traditional Enmity between the Ọba and the Ogiamiẹn", Umẹwaẹn: Journal of Benin and Ẹdo Studies, Vol. 2, 2017, pp. 37 - 38 Bondarenko is on the editorial advisory board of the Umewaen journal so he most likely has already read the 2017 article by Curnow by now, and is probably aware that his statement about the story not appearing before the 1970s is not correct. |
(1) (2) (of 2 pages)
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 84 |