dolphinheart:


It is a very dangerous thing to do. To use an analogy one can think of to explain a doctrine that the scriptures does not teach about. Following such methods can alter what the. Scriptures is telling us.
in my own case, I see what the website is trying to say as false. They try to use philosophy to tell us who God is, while the scriptures has already done that. They manipulate and analyse statements In the scriptures to mean something else other than what it means. This is wrong. No where in the scriptures did the writers indicate that God is a trinity, either 1 in 3,3 in 1 or 1 divided by 3. Some verses they quoted have been shown to be false words added by those who wanted to perpetuate the trinity doctrine.
Take parts , half or whole, the theme of the bible is about the sovereign authority of God, the father.
I only used part of the translation you believe in to ask you a question. A question you have not answered .
The question was :
* taking from the kjv(which has been shown to be spurious)
"And there are three that bear
witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. .Is the water and blood persons too? Cus here they bear witness.
If not, then the spirit bearing
withness cannot be used as a
basis to call the holy spirit a
person.
Even from these false texts, can you now see how its more of manipulation than analysis?
If you believe that the 3 that bear withness in heaven mean those 3 are equal, do you believe the equality of those that bear withness on earth?
The verses does not mention equality among those that bear withness so why do you use these to support trinity.
Can you see the problems this false doctrine has created.
Does the verse say the 3 are God? No.
Does the verse say the three are equal? No.
Is the verse present in most translations of the scriptures? No
Does using "he" for the holy spirit implies that the holy spirit is a person ? No
The greek word translated to "he" is ekeinos.
ekeinos: that one (or neut.
that thing), often intensified
by the art. preceding
Part of Speech: Demonstrative
Pronoun
Short Definition: that, that one
there, yonder
definition: that, that one there,
yonder.
NASB Translation
once* (3), one (4), other (1),
these (1), this (2), those (35),
those things (1), very (1), what
(1).

#1565: ekeinos
(pronounced ek-i'-nos)
from 1563; that one (or (neuter)
thing); often intensified by the
article prefixed:--he, it, the other
(same), selfsame, that (same,
very), X their, X them, they, this,
those. See also 3778.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
ekeinos
1) he, she it, etc.
Part of Speech: pronoun
Relation: from G1563
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1565/ekeinos.htm
Personification does not prove
personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper” and spoke of such helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving.’ In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the masculine personal pronoun to that “helper” (paraclete).
However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in proverbs chapter 8 and feminine pronominal forms are
used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at
Matt 11: 19 and Luke 7:,35
where it is depicted as having
both “works” and “children.”
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” -rom 5:14,17,21 ; 6:12
He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’- rom 7:8-11.
Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
So, likewise with John’s account of Jesus’ words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the
masculine substantive
pa·raʹkle·tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns.
On the other hand, in the same
context, when the Greek
pneuʹma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneuʹma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa·raʹkle·tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.
The holy spirit lacks personal identification. Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’ It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used
with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit.
But, on the contrary, in a large
number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.
The holy spirit does not have a name.
Texts in the scripture says that people were “filled” with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed” with it.
Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit..
Matt 3:11
"I baptize you with water for
repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..
Acts 10:38
[b]about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was
with him.
These references to holy spirit
definitely do not fit a person.
To understand what the Bible
as a whole teaches, all these
texts must be considered.
What is the reasonable
conclusion? That the first
texts cited here employ a
figure of speech personifying
God’s holy spirit, his active
force, as the Bible also
personifies wisdom, sin,
death, water, and blood.
The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.
Stephen was given a vision of
heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy
spirit.
Read this page:
http://trinity-exposed..co.ke/2006/10/holy-spirit.html?m=1
And after reading all these verses, did you see any that indicated that jesus is the almighty God? No.
Did any of the verse indicate that jesus is equal to the father? No
Did any of the verses indicate that jesus was commanded by someone else? Yes
Did any of the verses indicate that jesus receives inheritance like a child receives inheritance from the older person? Yes.
Did the verses tell us that jesus was the only begotten of the father?
Did the verses tell us that jesus is the most high or majesty on high ? No
What did the scriptures say about that?
Answer: it says jesus sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high.
Did he just sit there by his own will? No, he was instructed to sit there by God .
To be continued...

JMAN05:


You are still dancing dancing and dancing, beating about the bush. Pls my dear, go straight to the point. Which manuscript was kjv written from? and which manuscript was those manuscript copied from? answer that, stop this dance.
which study did you do for months, did you read the bible manuscripts or what? be specific and stop hanging on the air, let me know what you talking about.
You said I should provide my prove of scholarly concensus, yet you are here indicating that you wont accept it as a proof ("link after link". what do you really want?
How did I arrive at? when you view kjv as God's words for you, do you not know tthat it borrowed from a translation? do you think kjv translated from the original?
Now, do you have the original of what the apostles wrote? From where did kjv translate from?
"In 1611 the 54 scholars who produced the King James Bible drew significantly from Tyndale, as well as from translations that descended from his. One estimate suggests the New Testament in the King James Version is 83% Tyndale's and the Old Testament 76%[/color]"
(Tadmor, Naomi (2010), The Social Universe of the English Bible: Scripture, Society, and Culture in Early Modern England, Cambridge UP, p. 16, ISBN 978-0-521-76971-6, citing Nielson, John; Skousen, Royal (1998), "How Much of the King James Bible is William Tyndale's? An Estimation Based on Sampling", Reformation 3: 49–74)
Where is God's original found, in kjv? Did the apostles write there original in kjv, and where did kjv rely on, from the original or mostly from another translation?
I dont know why this point is toooooo hard for you to understand.

JMAN05:


You are still dancing dancing and dancing, beating about the bush. Pls my dear, go straight to the point. Which manuscript was kjv written from? and which manuscript was those manuscript copied from? answer that, stop this dance.
which study did you do for months, did you read the bible manuscripts or what? be specific and stop hanging on the air, let me know what you talking about.
You said I should provide my prove of scholarly concensus, yet you are here indicating that you wont accept it as a proof ("link after link". what do you really want?
How did I arrive at? when you view kjv as God's words for you, do you not know tthat it borrowed from a translation? do you think kjv translated from the original?
Now, do you have the original of what the apostles wrote? From where did kjv translate from?
"In 1611 the 54 scholars who produced the King James Bible drew significantly from Tyndale, as well as from translations that descended from his. One estimate suggests the New Testament in the King James Version is 83% Tyndale's and the Old Testament 76%[/color]"
(Tadmor, Naomi (2010), The Social Universe of the English Bible: Scripture, Society, and Culture in Early Modern England, Cambridge UP, p. 16, ISBN 978-0-521-76971-6, citing Nielson, John; Skousen, Royal (1998), "How Much of the King James Bible is William Tyndale's? An Estimation Based on Sampling", Reformation 3: 49–74)
Where is God's original found, in kjv? Did the apostles write there original in kjv, and where did kjv rely on, from the original or mostly from another translation?
I dont know why this point is toooooo hard for you to understand.

JMAN05:


And how does these affect my point?

dolphinheart:
Ill like to apologise for replying late.
That is an undisputed fact. But that is not what we are discussing.
*the holy spirit is not mentioned here.
First, there is no gospel account of that incident in which it is recorded that jesus said he was God.
Secondly , when jesus was replying them on their accusations in the earlier verses you mentioned ,what did he say? .
Let's look at the scriptures again
John 10: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Is it
not written in your Law, ‘I have
said you are “gods” ’ d ? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and
Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
Do you notice what jesus said he told them? . He repeated what he told them, that he is Gods son not God himself.
They misunderstood his earlier statements just as people who believe in the trinity do today .
Look at jesus words again
John 10: 25-30
Jesus answered, “I did tell
you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.
Jesus is telling us that the father is the one who owns and gave him the sheep. No one can take them away from the father , thus no one can take them away from the one the father gives the sheep. And the sheep will not be taken away from him because jesus and the father are one. One in unity and purpose. These was further explained and emphasized In john chapter 17
Notice that jesus specifically mentioned the father and not just God. This helps you to understand which God jesus is reffering to.
Notice jesus said it was the father that gave them to him and the father is greater than all(not God is greater than all). These is directly related to the statement : "the father is greater than I am".
So does those verses say jesus is God? No
Does it mention the trinity? No
Does it equate jesus with the father? No.
Let us not misunderstand jesus words like those that tried to stone him did, calling jesus a "mere man".
*the holy spirit is not mentioned here.
The issue of worship is a very controversial issue, and its dependent on how you translate the word used for worship. Cus it also can be translated as obesiance.
But notwithstanding, it was the father that directed such reverence to the son not that the son took it up by himself.
Most translations add the exclamation mark after "God". These shows that it was an exclamation made out of surprise. There are some possible reasons why Thomas would have said these, but that jesus is the almighty God is not one of these reasons. why? Because jesus had told them on several occassions his relationship with the father and that what he has done, talked about and performed came about through the fathers command and power.
To further butress these points , jesus told mary, days before Thomas statement, to tell the disciples(Thomas inclusive the following :
John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
So its still a wonder when one claims Thomas(a Jew) exclamation surpports trinity.
That a husband and wife should become one flesh was made by jesus, so the issue of man or Gods standard should not have been mentioned. Is becoming one flesh only talking about only sexual relationship between them.? No. Cus if its true they are only one when they have sex and are not one when they dnt, and that a man can still be one with any woman he has sex with, godly or ungodly.
So what does being one as expressed by jesus mean?
Let us read the verses again
Mark 10:6-9
6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ 7 ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his
wife, 8 and the two shall
become one flesh.’ So they
are no longer two but one
flesh. 9 What therefore God
has joined together, let not
man separate.”
Can you see that jesus is talking about the marriage union between husband and wife and not about sex . It is that union that makes them one and not sex . That union gives them a unity of purpose and responsibility that transcends their physical world, but it does not make them equal in that union.
You did not apply your view to jesus statement that he and the father are one. What do you understand by that statement.?
Are you saying that jesus is equal to the father?
Remember jesus words about his own will.
*note: jesus did not mention he is one with the holy spirit.
I'm also reffering to that spiritual unity. Does that unity between the disciples, jesus and the father make them equal? No. Therefore that scripture does not surpport the trinity view that jesus and the father are equal.!
But the holy spirit was active on earth while jesus was on earth.
I'm confused, is that scripture part of my post or you just want me to tell you my view on it?

dolphinheart:

@ SisterSister


And christians should not also also believe that jesus is equal to the father.
* the whole of deut 18 is ommited from my reply.
These verse confirms Gods promise to moses. God did sent to the isrealites a prophet like moses. Moses is a prophet , a messenger and one who serves God. Likewise jesus.
Hope with this, you can now understand the difference between God and jesus.
Jesus is not the almighty God.
You are right
1. What do you understand by the scriptures quoted above, share ur views on each of them.
2 . Can you post the verses I've ignored so that we can examine them?
If you can't see from the numerous verses quoted so far that God is not jesus, father and holy spirit, that the father is the only true God as mentioned by jesus, then there is Little that I can add.
The scriptures never supported the trinity nor even mentioned it. Jesus does not have equality with the father, nor is he the almighty God.

dolphinheart:

They tell us about the relationship between jesus and the father. It was jesus talking there.
Jesus is expressing the unity between him and his father. This does not mean jesus is the same person as the father or that he is equal to the father. Other scripture verses helps us to understand what he meant by "I and my Father are one."
We read jesus words on mark 10:7- 8 :"For this cause shall
a man leave his father and
mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Another version renders it thus: and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Is the husband and wife one person?, do they exist in one physical body? are they given the same role and authority under a family in the scriptures?
If ur answers to the above questions is no, then jesus saying that he and the father are one represents the unity he has with his father. Which is due to his absolute loyalty to the father as expressed in john chapter 17.
Another scripture we can look at is the one mentioned earlier
John 17:21:- That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:[b] that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus wanted two things here.
He first wanted his disciples to be one. Since they are different persons, being one here signifies unity , unity Bourne out of love for one another(john 13:34). Jesus also wanted them to be one with him and the father. These statement annuls the view that jesus is equal to God or is God cus he and the father are one. Cus the disciples being one with them does not make them God or equal to God.
Hope u understand.
Can you also see that the holy spirit is not mentioned here, do you know why?
One fact is that jesus not the father, he is not the same person as the father. So what did jesus mean. The scriptures gives us the answer.
John 5:19-20,30,37,46.
19 Then answered Jesus and
said unto them, Verily, verily, I
say unto you, [b]The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for
whatsoever things he does,
these also does the Son
likewise.
20 For the Father loves the
Son, and [/b]shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.[/b]
30 I can of my own self do
nothing: as I hear, I judge: and
my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me.
37 And the Father himself, who
has sent me, has borne
witness of me. You have
neither heard his voice at any
time, nor seen his form.
46 For had you believed Moses, you would have
believed me: for he wrote of
me."
Here we know that jesus represents the father, he does the fathers instructions, he gives the fathers messages , he learnt from the father perfectly. So jesus did exactly as his father wanted him to do and in that way, if you see jesus, you have seen the father cus jesus is a perfect representation of the father. But jesus is not the father.
Remember what God told moses in deut 18:18
" I will raise them up a Prophet
from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
These view is further supported by the following verses:
John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who
sent me, he gave me a
commandment, what I should
say, and what I should speak.
That is why jesus is the word of God.
Pls dnt get confused by the deliberate removal of Gods name in those verses. They have removed Gods name and replaced it with "Lord ".
So who is the one God.
John 17:1-3
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast
given him power over all flesh,
that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The scriptures has been consistent in telling who God is. It is never in support of trinity, and trinity will have to divide the scriptures for it to be true.

dolphinheart:

Pls can you use scripture to describe this Godhead and the holy spirit being part of it.
There is no verse simply because the holy spirit is not a person.
Look at what ur own king james version says:
1 john 5:8
"And there are three that bear
witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Is the water and blood persons too? Cus here they bear witness. If not, then the spirit bearing withness cannot be used as a basis to call the holy spirit a person.
Yes, the holy spirit as a force can do that.
There is none, the words where constructed by those who want to use it to support their views. The scriptures does not support such view.
The scriptures never said he was still God .
Jesus said he received authority,he said he received power, he said he was given power and authority by someone. How can he now be God almighty!.
If it is imposible for one to assume the role of the other, then they are not equal. The scripture says" he became flesh". And even when he went back to heaven, he was subjected to his God.
God was speaking to jesus, but that same God clarified the position of jesus as not equal to him in the next verse
Heb 1:9
”You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."
So who is jesus' God?
Who are jesus's companions that he was set above.?
Why was jesus anointed?
That jesus gave the disciples power and authority does not mean that the disciples where equal to jesus despite doing the powerful things that jesus did like healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead etc. Likewise that the father gave jesus power and authority does not make jesus equal to the father!
What is the relationship between the power given to the jesus and that of the disciples?
John again helps give the answer.
John 17:2, 6-8,11-13
2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
6 “I have revealed you a to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
(therefore, the power jesus gave to his disciples comes from the father)
8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are
one.
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them."
John 20: 21-22
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace
be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22 And with that he breathed
on them and said, “Receive
the Holy Spirit. [/b]23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Acts 1: 2
2 Until the day in which he was
taken up, [b]after he through the Holy Spirit had given
commandments unto the
apostles whom he had
chosen:
4 And, being assembled together with them,
commanded them that they
should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the
promise of the Father, which, said he, you have heard of me.
8 But you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:22
22 You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of
God among you by miracles
and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you yourselves also know:
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and
having received of the Father
the promise of the Holy Spirit,
he has poured forth this, which
you now see and hear.

So wateva power or authority given by jesus to his disciples, he received it from the father.
Did you check the scriptures quoted? I which you have quoted the scriptures with its accompanied statements.
Where did you get this from? Pls post the source.
And after quoting this, you still feel they are equal?
After we had decided on what auto means, ill tell you more on my own view of the holy spirit, using the scriptures.

JMAN05:


What are you talking about? I asked, how do you determine falsehood from an old manuscript? By what standard do you now weigh it since it is the oldest?
Manuscripts are copied from the autograph. And latter this copied manuscript are further duplicated by copyists. Eg, A is copied from the autograph, and B is copied from A. Now, among A and B, which is the best?
So I dont see the logic in stating if A is false it is false. If A is false, can't we say that B is even more faulty?
If A is false, by which criteria do you arrive at that conclusion?
Make a good point abeg.
General concesus is that those manuscripts are the best.
You can name those scholars that are against those manuscripts as the best, and state there position, let's see them. Also state there preferred manuscripts.
KJV borrowed heavily from another translation, not the original yet that is what God intended for you? So God is no longer interested in what was written by the apostles. He is now is interested in borrowing from a translation? Say something else pls.
God intended a KJV for you, and the translation is constantly being revised. So which revision did God intend for you?
And God is not even interested in the original. Which god do you serve if I may ask?

JMAN05:


What are you talking about? I asked, how do you determine falsehood from an old manuscript? By what standard do you now weigh it since it is the oldest?
Manuscripts are copied from the autograph. And latter this copied manuscript are further duplicated by copyists. Eg, A is copied from the autograph, and B is copied from A. Now, among A and B, which is the best?
So I dont see the logic in stating if A is false it is false. If A is false, can't we say that B is even more faulty?
If A is false, by which criteria do you arrive at that conclusion?
Make a good point abeg.
General concesus is that those manuscripts are the best.
You can name those scholars that are against those manuscripts as the best, and state there position, let's see them. Also state there preferred manuscripts.
KJV borrowed heavily from another translation, not the original yet that is what God intended for you? So God is no longer interested in what was written by the apostles. He is now is interested in borrowing from a translation? Say something else pls.
God intended a KJV for you, and the translation is constantly being revised. So which revision did God intend for you?
And God is not even interested in the original. Which god do you serve if I may ask?

JMAN05:


What are you talking about? I asked, how do you determine falsehood from an old manuscript? By what standard do you now weigh it since it is the oldest?
Manuscripts are copied from the autograph. And latter this copied manuscript are further duplicated by copyists. Eg, A is copied from the autograph, and B is copied from A. Now, among A and B, which is the best?
So I dont see the logic in stating if A is false it is false. If A is false, can't we say that B is even more faulty?
If A is false, by which criteria do you arrive at that conclusion?
Make a good point abeg.
General concesus is that those manuscripts are the best.
You can name those scholars that are against those manuscripts as the best, and state there position, let's see them. Also state there preferred manuscripts.
KJV borrowed heavily from another translation, not the original yet that is what God intended for you? So God is no longer interested in what was written by the apostles. He is now is interested in borrowing from a translation? Say something else pls.
God intended a KJV for you, and the translation is constantly being revised. So which revision did God intend for you?
And God is not even interested in the original. Which god do you serve if I may ask?

Pr0ton:


It's okay if you choose to believe absurdity because there are more who do, so that your absurdity don't become apparent.

But just know you believe in absurdity, to those who can prove you do. Live a fulfilled life anyway!

BETATRON:
I know what christians believe in.my question is their justification for believing in what they believe in...wisdom demands that you have a reason for what ever you believe in
Christ said in the holy bible " greater is he that sent me!!" What do you understand from this statement
And two have studied the history of the bible if you haven't please do..you will find there-in that the concept of trinity and the divinity of christ was actually brought centuries after christ "325AD" by emperor constantine the great who was a sun worshipper through out is life

dolphinheart:
@ sistersister

I'll be breaking my reply into different posts so that it wunt be too lenghty .

Yes man has it, like man also has conscience, feelings and water, that man has the three you mentioned does not mean that is what they are made of.
In the book of genesis we were told how man came to exist and how he became to be a living being(soul). Two things where mentioned there, not three.
The mind you made mention of is a function of the body, mostly the brain part of it. It is true to say that apart from an external supernatural force ( e.g the holy spirit, demons and angels) affecting ur body, the functions of your mind are directly affected and determined by what the body is able to physically assimilate to the brain through the senses of smell, sight, touch, taste, and hear. No thought of urs has come to play outside these body functions.
To go further, when these body receives these information from the physical world, it also determines the minds response through the release of complex chemicals and enzymes in the body, which determine or aid our feelings and how we respond.
Another example is when we examine a mad man. A mad man's mind can be corrected by physical drugs and the external control of information coming to the body in a controlled environment. Likewise a sane mind can be made insane the same way, to show you that our physical body is our mind, the body is being made active, animated by the spirit/breathe of life/force as the scriptures tells us, and when such force is no longer operational in the body, it will not be able to have the function of the mind.
The scriptures never taught us about such trinity of man.
We will look at what the website says as see if it is right or wrong.

The quote of john 1:1 you posted is a translation of the Greek words in the manuscripts into English, pls can you find out why some Translators and scholars prefer to use "a God" " a divine being" in that verse.?

This is a webpage you can start from.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1

Pls Take note of the advise you mentioned on taking verses, we will use such advise in this discussion.
My next post will be on the website you posted

dolphinheart:
@ sistersister


This is false , as jesus never said "he was God", talkless of ”God almighty”. The site started on a false note.


another false note, he made the kingdom of God the focal point of his teachings. He told some of those he healed that they should tell, so that he can go about his preaching and teaching work in peace.



Mark 8:29-30
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Peter answered, “You are
the Messiah.”
Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

Jesus was not shocked cus peter answered correctly, therefore he could not have rebuked peter.
jesus is the messiah and not God almighty . He was sent by God. But the Jews had wrong hope for the messiah so revealing such info to the public at that time would not good.


Jesus even said God is our father, that the father is our God. Therefore if we take the statement made by jesus to mean jesus is God like the Jews wrongly understood. Then humans too are God, cus jesus and peter said that the father is our god and we can be his children and jesus brothers.
1 cor 8: 6
John 20:17
Heb 2:10-18

we that have more knowledge about jesus than those Jews showed know they had a wrong understanding of what jesus is saying. It is wrong for us to use their wrong understanding to describe what jesus is saying, jesus said he is the "son of God ", he did not say "he is God "


If you read the verses verry well, you will see that jesus showed them that he has the authority and power to forgive sins and heal the sick . He showed them that they where wrong in their views . Jesus told us in the scriptures that this authority was giving to him, he received it from the father to show you that at a time he never had such authority and thus he is not God.
If we are to take jesus as God cus he can forgive sins, then we have to take the disciples as God cus they had the authority to forgive sins and the power to heal, even raise the dead.
Can you see that the attempts so far by website to say jesus is God is so far false and full of holes?


Can you see again that jesus did not say he is God? He acknowledged that he is the son of God. And when he goes to heaven , he will be at the right hand of God .


Why is all these possible between these two persons, it is possible cus jesus said " I do nothing of my own will , but what I see the father doing is what I do " . All jesus knows , he learnt it from the father.
so far , you have not answered the question on if jesus is a person . Cus you said God is not a person.

To be continued .......

JMAN05:


ok, how do you determine whether an older manuscript is false?

2. Sinaiticus and Vatican 1209 are identified by scholars as among the best manuscripts. Are you aware of this?

Are u also aware that the first KJV is not what you have now, and that KJV was not the first translation. And in fact that KJV copied heavily from another translation, and that it was not just a rendering from the original?

Could that be what God meant for us? Are you also aware that majority of those against the 1john 5:7 rendering are trinitarians?

dolphinheart:

@ sistersister

The holy spirit is not s person.
Jesus said he will ask the father for the holy spirit shows you that there is no equality between the jesus, the father and holy spirit.
Have you ever wandered why no one has ever had a discussion with the holy spirit .?

No scriptural proof to support the above. Moreover, the word "God the son' does not exist in the scriptures.

Can you see the bold, jesus categorically says that he had been giving authority! These helps is to understand two things
1. The was a time in which jesus did not have the authority he now has cus he was given these authority, these implies that jesus that at a time jesus was not God almighty . Jesus cannot later now be God almighty cus God almighty has always been God almighty with supreme authority.
2. That he was giving authority shows that their is someone superior to him who has giving him such authority.

These statement is false.
Secondly, can all the attributes of the holy spirit be ascribed to the father? If not, then they are not equal.

As you can see, all the above does not put the holy spirit and the father as equals .

For example, let's look at this scripture
Acts 2: 32,33
"God has raised this
Jesus to life, and we are all
witnesses of it. 33 ( jesus is)Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear."

You can see from the above who gave jesus the holy spirit to pour down on his disciples.
If the holy spirit had been a person, equality is far from each of them . Even David during his trying times begged the father, jehovah not to take the holy spirit away from him. This shows you that the father is the almighty God, the only true God as jesus specifically told us .

There are others reasons that can be stated to show you that the holy spirit is not a person, but ill first like you to study on the Greek word "auto" as used in john 14:17

The Holy Spirit is a person and part of the Godhead but when person is used, not a person like you and I. Maybe the word personage might assist instead?

There is no verse that I'm aware of where someone is having a conversation with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a witness. And, what do witnesses do? They tell what they know in truth. The Holy Spirit, He speaks to the hearts of those that can hear God, through the life given in Jesus Christ.

I'm not aware of verses that give exact wording of "God the Son" by there are numbers that say, "Son of God".

To your answer #1, Jesus took on humanity, became flesh but He was still God.
#2, There is so much more to this but position/relationship is involved. During Jesus' ministry on earth, again he took on flesh.

Hebrews 1:8 (KJV) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Who is God speaking of in this verse?

Jesus also gave authority/power:

Luke 10:19 (CJB) Remember, I have given you authority; so you can trample down snakes and scorpions, indeed, all the Enemy’s forces; and you will remain completely unharmed.

Luke 10:19 (KJV) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

It is a very true statement supported by scriptures.
The attributes of God the Father and God the Son, also applies to the Holy Spirit.
"He has insight (1 Corinthians 2:10-11). He knows things, which requires an intellect (Romans 8:27). He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11). He convicts of sin (John 16:. He performs miracles (Acts 8:39). He guides (John 16:13). He intercedes between persons (Romans 8:26). He is to be obeyed (Acts 10:19-20). He can be lied to (Acts 5:3), resisted (Acts 7:51), grieved (Ephesians 4:30), blasphemed (Matthew 12:31), even insulted (Hebrews 10:29). He relates to the apostles (Acts 15:28) and to each member of the Trinity (John 16:14; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). The personhood of the Holy Spirit is presented without question in the Bible". (Quote source: http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-gender.html)

The word auto in greek means...self, one's own

John 14:25-27 (KJV) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

plappville:


Jesus did not said in any verse that. I Jesus, "i am God/Yahweh " or do you have such verse in the bible? Am ready to learn please provide it thanks.

dolphinheart:

@ sistersister



It is not only difficult to comprehend, but there are so many versions that one does not even know which one is the true version any longer.
The only true God is the father, these jesus acknowleged in john chapter 17

I'm going to quote most parts of the chapter and show you(in brackets) how the father, son and holy spirit and not the only true God and how the son is not equal to the father.

john chapter 17
1 After Jesus said this, he
looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has
come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

(jesus is Gods son, and not God the son)

2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

(can you see that the authority that jesus had, to forgive sins, to heal, even to grant evalasting life was giving to him? He did not have it before, so he is not God almighty or equal to the father who gave him such authority and power and approval)

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus
Christ, whom you have
sent.

(jesus makes it known to us that the father, whose name is jehovah is the only true God, not jesus, holy spirit and father )

4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the
world began.

(and when jesus was glorified in his fathers presence, he was not made God almighty, he was told sit at the right hand of God almighty.)

6 “I have revealed you a to those whom you gave me out of the world.
They were yours; you
gave them to me and they
have obeyed your word.
(jesus repeatedly letting us know who we belong to and who we should worship. He is also showing us how much loyalty he has for his God, the father)

7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is
yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

(by virtue of inheritance)

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.
Holy Father, protect them
by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
(can you see that jesus being one with the father does not mean that jesus and the father are same or that they have same authority? Cus such analogy Cannot be applied here)

12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be
fulfilled..........

18[b] As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.[/b]

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their
message,
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the
world may believe that you have sent me.
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that
they may be [/b]one as we are one[/b]
23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved
them even as you have
loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me
before the creation of the
world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have
made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

To be continued.......

plappville:


Thank you very much. You made good points. Same reason Christians rejected Mohammad (SBUH) . The bible gave many reasons why Muhammad should be rejected. the last thin a Christian will do is embrace the lies in the Koran. We are in same shoes as the Jews. They hold on to the promises of God through prophets like Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah et . The Messiah will be a Man. A Jew. Not God himself. The comforter is the holy spirit Not a person (Muhammad). Christians should start thinking...and stop this God in three person dogma. It's indeed damaging just like you stated up there.

JMAN05:


My response is with regards to 1john 5:7. The translation you quoted in that regard is still one - KJV.

sistersister, I want to ask you; an older manuscript of the bible and a younger manuscript, which one do you think should be the more trusted?

BETATRON:
maybe you don't understand my question
I didn't say jesus rejected the gentiles...my question is why did He use the Word SENT if he is indeed god,who sent him?
You've actually answered the question "AS A FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY" are you consciously of unconsciously calling christ a Prophet?

dolphinheart:

@ sistersister

I did ask you to provide proof of ur view that man is made up of the body, spirit and mind.

You said god is not a person
And I asked: Is Jesus a person or not? The site you provided does not answer that question.
The site also failed woefully in explaining why jesus is god.
If you feel I'm wrong, you can post the site here.

Even though I have a contrary view to some of the things said in that site, ill hold on for now. For now, below is what I take out of that site as I believe it is response to the question: is the holy spirit a person or not ?
: "The Holy Spirit is a real
person who came to reside
within Jesus Christ's true
followers after Jesus rose from
the dead and ascended to
heaven."

Now if you say the holy spirit is a real person, what about jesus and the father.?

The site cannot be displayed on my phone, maybe you can you post the content here.

According to a scholar: there are times when people adore their theology more than the God-breathed original, and they fight for the man-made
addition as if it were the original words of God. This has been the case with 1 John 5:7 and 8, and we applaud the honesty of the translators of modern versions who have left it out of their translations.

For a better understanding of what I'm trying to tell you, pls read what in on these sites.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-john-5-7-8


http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/12/why-is-1-john-57-8-found-in-the-kjv-kept-in-the-nkjv-when-it-is-believed-to-b

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/texts/1john5-7.html

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/1Jn5_7.html

Even the NKJV reads in its footnote : U-Text and M-Text
omit the words from in heaven
(verse 7) through on earth (verse . Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+5&version=NKJV

Hope you understand what jesus told mary, he told her that he has a god, that that god is also mary's god. That their god(both jesus and mary ) is the father! .

JMAN05:
SisterSister



Did you not notice a difference between the last two translations and the KJV above?

Read verse 7 of both translations carefully

BETATRON:
same sister it doesn't fit yes correct water can exist in three states but not at the same time...do you know that this concept of trinity was actually introduced into the bible centuries after christ?
Don't mean to disobey christ,I have full respect for him..anyways here is my question "if christ was equal to God the father how come he said "I was not sent but to the lost ship of the house of isreal" how is it logical for a God to send a God?