But wait...wait...wait...wait....I be olodo when it comes to religion, but errr..wasn't Jesus talking about the 10 commandments "Law of GOD" in Matthew 5:17-18? ....the "Law of Moses" was founded on the "Law of GOD" but does that necessarily mean 10 commandments = Law of Moses?
Aminu quoted Deuteronomy , which is written by Moses after remixing the 10 commandments, but was Christ referring to this(Moses Law) or God's laws in Exodus?

Brings me to the next question, one of the 10 commandments is "thou shall not kill" which is contrary to what Moses had written in deuteronomy , ...and if Moses had said to kill isn't that going against God's law? meaning Moses don break law like the original G ....correct me if I'm wrong Christians are not followers of Moses, otherwise they will be known as Mosestians.....and if Christ referred to "THE LAW" I would think he meant the 10 commandments ....no?
I think a lot of text has been misinterpreted from one generation to another or maybe context has been lost through translation...but what do I know ...kontinue...

It's funny that you are this funny...

So science and proven facts have always worked a 100% at all times? oh wow, i wonder why some still die after following science and proven concepts. Damn, one would have thought not a single soul would die from malaria since the discovery of anti-malaria drugs.....
You ask someone to prove something, they say they got healed after praying. Then you come with some scientific hogwash on why they are dimwits... Unlike doctors , they believed they administered prayers and ailment disappeared , bottom line the "AILMENT DISAPPEARED" whether it was as a result of what the doctors administered to the buttocks of our poster up there or that they believed it was as a result of prayers...truth is you both don't have enough evidence to back it up, other that the reference to the medical journal(which is very disputable) and they their reference to faith . Hey, the body could just have corrected itself, but we would never know. Now you can argue from now till the end of life, fact still remains, you or the poster cannot prove that their case was solved by your hypothesis up there and they cannot also prove it was solved by prayers.......but umm never mind.

realmindz:

Pls don't be this funny.

Scientific facts have been proven and tested beyond books and they are open for reviews and updates.

Can you say same of your bible with ancient falacious tales and still arrogantly rejects corrections and modernisation, yet they cant stand scrutiny and tests.

we see science working, we see its works, results and progress in the betterment of human lives. can you say the same of holy books?

Religious Human: is the medical journal to be trusted?
Thinking human: Yes
Religious Human: can you give a logical proof?
Thinking human: ***Quotes from the medical journal*** In the book of bla bla bla, do this and do that and you will achieve healing
Religious Human: ***Facepalm


No other proof for the veracity of the medical journals other than the medical journals

You see the point? Any argument for against is pointless.....

realmindz:


Thinking Human: is the bible to be trusted?
Religious dimwit: Yes
Thinking human: can you give a logical proof?
Religious dimwit: ***Quotes from the bible*** In the book of bla bla bla
Thinking human: ***Facepalm


No other proof for the veracity of the bible other than the bible

akintom:


You're a joker. Your ignorance of the pathophysiology of what happened to you, made you hug the illusion of prayer.

Your abscess got ripened, gradually released the pus and your pain eased. You know why? The pain causing substances in your buttock got driven out with the release of the pus.

Again, Can you come up with something worth evidence, that prayer influenced?

Well, I'm assuming you know the reason, why the heart beats , bundled cells , electric activity causing the heart beat and all the medical jargons, please take that knowledge to the morgue, get a dead body, create all those things that you've learned makes a heart beat, and raise the dead. When God heals, you won't necessarily see him fly down from heaven in a flying range-rover garbed in scrubs and armed with scissors to perform surgery.
Nothing you have said proves that a supreme being could not have set it in motion in order to get ripened and blazay blazay... Even though she cannot prove it to you, you also cannot prove otherwise, other than the textbook theory you just quoted up there, which she has a right not to accept, after all a man or men like you came up with the hypothesis.

Here's my take....
I believe that in addition to us being physical beings, we are also spiritual beings. I believe there's a God and here's why.
God by definition to many is the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. And also a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes. Which means a higher source from which we all came to be.

In a simplistic view , a being that has been before us. In more relatable sense, take our parents for example, they are the channel by which we all came to be, they were here before us and in the course of being here have learned a lot. In a way a parent is a source. So consider a child running high fever but not showing any physical symptoms, the child may feel the burning inside and make a "request for help" (prayers) to the mother OR the mother may just be observant touch the child, feel they are running temperature, get medicine to help the child. In the reverse, the child may not know to ask for help, the mother may not know to touch the child, the child may get worse and die. In this sense we could say "Prayers" (a request for help) from the child could have saved the child.
I believe same applies for the spirit being, if we are able to tap into that realm we may gain assistance from the higher being. Just like the child, we can ask for help from the spirits that have been and ultimately the being that all spirits come from(God). But does that mean our prayers would get answered all the time?

No, our prayers would not get answered all the time because as long as we are in this body there will be limitations. If you sit in a car as we know it today and pray to God to fly, your prayers will never get answered, but if you transport yourself into a plane, your prayers to fly will be answered. Or if in the future science gets better and flying cars are created in your life time, your request to fly in a car will be answered. Now you can pray(ask) for a sense of direction on how to get to a plane or sit in the car and pray that it should fly with its limitations.
Even in the physical world almost everything has a creator. This website for example when it was built, the creator may never have thought it could have a bug or a loophole for hackers, but it happens, and when it does, the creator goes back to work a fix in order for it to fulfill it’s purpose of being a website many will visit.

That prayers do not work in certain scenarios does not mean that prayers never work. Whether we like it or not , there are rules that govern our stay here on earth, and no one is here forever, nor will we understand every event that happens and why it happened.
Religion in my opinion is a great opium, in that it can help tend to the spirit inside of man that we are not alone and that we can get help. However like so many other things on this earth , it’s not perfect and as in many cases have been a sole interpretation of how a man or many understood life when they were here. Religion is not the answer, don’t ask me what the answer is, because frankly I don’t know, and I’m not sure I want to know, or if I knew I probably won’t be here typing. But in all answers or not, I still believe there’s a GOD, and don’t ask me to prove it because I can’t , just as I can’t prove that you’ve had a thought or 2 in the last hour, but obviously me not believing you had a thought or not , does not mean you never did. Now go and be good.

But how? Ain't that the million dollar question? How come no one has been able to answer this question? How do we go about exporting Agric produce?
There ought to be some type of price regulation, else......

senato123:
@TaEpiphany. Nice write up. But u need to understand dat market evolves. D current plantain market is just approaching a technical stage from d viagrance of price determinant by a somewhat monopolistic arrangement to a contract based. I sometime weep wen I hear u say glut. Glut is impossible in a global market. All plainntains produced in Nigeria today cannot meet local market demand let alone international market. If government fails in his responsibility to open market,let us without delay just as what Kenyan as done for flower.

Jasper my broda,
How we wish, in an ideal world we would all sign contract and everybody will be smiling to the bank. First of all where are these processing companies or iya lojas that would sign contract with you? Please let me know. How many are they? The ones promising market have you tried contacting them to hear the BS dem dey spit? Infact you will laugh at some people's tom foolery. Are the companies willing to come in at a reasonable price or like everyone else they are looking for awoof?
Are they able to take all your produce in at once? Absolutely not, they probably have an order management system and would only order as needed. So if I have to sell 1000 plantain bunches and company requires only 100, who would take in the remaining 900? The problem here once again is the perishability, unlike buyers, farmers are racing against time. Please I understand you can process, but not everyone can go into processing.

Until we have a solid supply chain management system in Nigeria, produce market would somewhat remain a gamble. By SCM I mean, the market will have an inventory control system, all sellers must register with the market and each time they want to bring produce in the market, they have to log how much they are bringing. There has to be a limit to how many tonnes/truck of plantain that can be allowed in the market at a time. They have to determine at what point does the supply of plantain cause the price to drop drastically. Is it after the 4th trailer or maybe 5th? With that they can determine, oh at any given day, given so so amount of buyers the market can only sell 5 trailers of plantain, so if there is already a log that 5 trailers are coming in, you can't bring your produce that day.
You might think that's impossible to do, but check this, the day plantain flooded Mile12, they had to start stopping trailers from offloading. There was market on ground that were not sold yet, so it made no point to offload. We can't just leave it to the elements else we will be making huge profits and losing money at the same time.
Now farmers can't control a lot of things due to the nature of plantain.......at least not yet. Forget all the 'nansense' some are peddling about harvesting all at once because their sucker get juju. If you have 400 plantain trees, you will not harvest all at once. Remember consistent harvest depends on a lot of factors like, specie, water, fertilizer, management, weather, some of which you can't absolutely get right 100% of the time. Maybe in the future with more studies on plantain or getting info from advanced world we will get there....until then.....

You can only guess how much you are able to harvest per week, sometimes you are right on , sometimes na F9. If the harvest is not that much, e no make sense make una hire trailer transport am to market. By the time your harvest is ready, the market could have changed.
Now if before setting up your farm you have solid data on the open market system based on analytics, then you can start doing batch farming.
The open market system can still work but I think the authorities might have to weigh in a little bit, install necessary systems so buyers and sellers are better informed.
Or secure before hand a contract like you said, and if it's a giant company work according to their needs. For example lays potato chips have farmers all over their country, the farmers cater to them only. They are more advanced in Agriculture and they are able to achieve some level of consistency in potato propagation, so frito-lay knows when to expect the harvest and they would have predicted the amount their manufacturing plant can process based on past data. The farmers plant based on this information and they all live happily ever after......

jasper7:

well composed and articulated posts sir, with a good knack for economics. nice one.

Let me just say this. what every farmer prays for is ready made market for his product. if that market comes in form of a supply contact at a reasonable price then that's fantastic.

Because, that will help the farmer know how to plan his production cost and also cut down on wastage.

The truth remains that you can't get contract supply at the peak price, this is because come scarcity or glut your selling price remains the same. the price usually has to fall between the peak price and the least price.

Good-Evening bro,

Mmmmmmmmmhhh.........
We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
The law of supply and demand states that if there is low supply and high demand, the price will be high. In contrast, the greater the supply and the lower the demand, the lower the price will be. Now you say demand exceeds supply, at what price? N30 per Kg? Well if there's massive desire for the product as you claim, trust me farmers will be selling for N300/kg, then you can rightfully say there's more demand than supply. Not because a group of people want supply every week at less than desirable price to the farmer.


The thing with plantain is that you will always sell, but at what price? For example you would like to buy at 30/Kg. A farmer that cannot find an alternative market will sell at that price out of desperation because a) It's perishable b) He can't find a better offer price. It tells me buyers are calling the shots. Now, that wouldn't be the case if demand was higher than supply and plantain was terribly scarce, then I'm sure you would be more than ready to buy at N150/kg, you get my drift?

Same thing happens in Mile12, there are times a dozen is sold at N18000 - N24000, recently same bunch of same quality, was between N1500- N4000.
How do you explain that? Glut, there were trailer loads of plantains without enough buyers at that present time. If demand is truly and steadily always higher than supply then we would have a steady market rate for plantain. A lot of people have gone into plantain farming, I'm sure they heard that plantain was selling for N2000 per bunch, well that's was because it was scarce at that time and people would pay a premium to buy it. Funny thing is no matter how cheaply the plantain is bought it never reflects in prices to direct consumers. If there's a price change it will just be slightly lower. For example, we know that a good packet of plantain chips/boli on the street of Lagos goes for an average of N100, whether the seller bought a bunch of plantain for N150 or N1500.

world1:

Good evening.
I can tell for sure that it true that demand is higher than supply..
Currently we have groups of guys looking for weekly supply of plantain in tonnes.

Mr World1,

Don't take it personal, I don't think he meant that statement to be an attack on you. GGfadar is one of the truth-tellers regarding plantain on this forum. Check a lot of the articles, you are led to believe plantain can be sold between 1000 - 1500 per bunch always. There are talks of demand being higher than supply, and that it's a farmers market.
But here you are professing that if you get 750 per bunch you are lucky. I'm thinking the per kilo will not include the plantain stalk, so the person calculating 750 is generous, it sounds to me more like 400- 600 per bunch depending on the size. Even lower if the plantains are not bulky.
Produce market can be very dicey, there are times in the ever ready Mile12 market that a bunch has been sold for 150 naira per bunch, just like cassava there was glut. Too much produce not enough buyers, I haven't seen any of these internet farmers advice on how prices can crash just like the forex market. No price control, you can sell for 1500 naira today in Mile12 and 150 naira next week. Other markets? Everybody is looking for a deal and an opportunity to rip-off. As a farmer with a perishable item, you receive the short end of the stick.

world1:

You people. Na wao always looking for trouble.

Here's a man that knows what he is talking about, not those ones that will be making empty promises that they have market and can link you up, only to start yarning dust at the last minute.
Good job for dropping some knowledge.

@Jethro good job as usual.

stagger:
Now if I have plenty of money to start a cassava farm that would serve as my feedstock, I can also get land in those areas which from the gari density heat map, have a very small concentration of gari. Those states almost always get their gari from other states. If you can site your gari factory in those states, acquire or lease land, farm your cassava to serve as your feedstock, and push it into the markets, you will make some good money.

Now a VERY BIG gari export market exists in the form of the Dawanau market in Kano. Almost all the gari sold there is brought in from the southern part of this country and sold to buyers from as far as Burkina Faso. Some of the big time traders here who have warehouses in this market buy from the farmers in the SW at cheap prices, transport the gari to this market and sell at export price premium to the export buyers from Niger, Chad, Cameroun, Sierra Leone, Burkina Faso, etc.

You are right on the money bro. I meant incentive in monetary terms.
At least you got one of them agreeing to your suggestion, now that's progress. I can only hope it doesn't go downhill from here.

Fhemmmy:


There is a huge incentive here, all those people that i called out, to them it is NOT about money but ability to do the right thing and help people . . . That is why i said if they need more hands, on this thread, we could talk about it and find a way to get one . . . I feel you, sir but at the end of the day whatever has to be done to see DJ get better and back of his feet.

Lol..... I knew it. You guys have been too involved to hands off completely.
Please if this is a possibility, let's move forward with it.

OAM4J:


Now this is moving forward.

You have a point oga Femmy.

What we can do (my thinking/not speaking for TeHN now) is not handing the whole money at once but release it in bits and on genuine request.

That way we can provide a bit of control and monitoring and present the state if the account periodically till exhausted.

Mmmmmmmmh........it looks like it all boils down to one thing, we need more hands on deck. With or without TEHN. Morale is low in the group right now, you can hardly function in low spirits, especially when there are no incentives attached. We are not addressing one of the major issues they have brought up - Resources, where do they find more volunteers? ........at this point, it sounds more like a question for Ifa.
And from what I'm reading they don't come across as a group who would hands off completely......they just need to breathe.....sometimes it helps when you take a step back.

Fhemmmy:


I am sure they will have an emergency meeting and look into the eyes of DJ in that picture and dont give up till there is someone that is reliable to look into the case, and i am not sure if the brother will be the best person to do this, cos DJ's brother will be emotional in some cases and once the doctor knows the money is with him, they will see that as open cheque . . . . Although, THeN said many times, they will pay the money to the hospital that will take care of him and only the rest will be given to his family (I am still not sure if that is a good idea as well)

Good point you raised there. But check out this perspective, until we find a verifiable volunteer, who is a good book-keeper or accountant , will the money continue sitting in TEHNS account? If they can actually hold it, that's fine, but it looks they are ready to pass the baton on this......they have repeatedly said they would like to pay for chemo and transfer the rest of the funds to the family. If Tehn disappeared off the surface of the earth are we saying we won't move on?
At the end of the day, I doubt we want the patient to get well more than the family does. His Mum spent money from her business on him before Nl'ers stepped in, I doubt they would use a chunk of it to eat amala.

Fhemmmy:


.I think that would be the biggest mistake and even NOT sure if DJ would agree with this kinda decision . . . . Someone in charge of millions of Naira and they have personal immediate needs, you think they will not touch the money that was meant for the young man's treatment?

Looks to me like exhaustion has set in, so bullying, begging or cajoling TEHNS would likely not yield any good results. The workload seems to be more than the resources available, add to that the barrage of questions and criticsm, any human will crash under that. Please let's respect their decision and move on.

The way forward?
1) The remaining funds should be transferred to the patient's family, unless you want it to be re-routed to the original donors.
2) Leadership is lacking, for example, not familiar with the rules here, but I doubt it takes Dangote's signature to get a thread soliciting for volunteers on the FP. Problem here is who is going to take ownership? Any volunteers? Where are the mods?
3) Before we ask for volunteers, what exactly do we want them to do? It has to be specific, like a job description e.g Mr A and B will be responsible for visitation...D will be responsible for fund disbursement......Etc that way reporting will be easier and we won't put the weight of the world on one persons head. Also we need to know how many volunteers are needed.
4) If we can get volunteers, then fund solicitation can begin, but question is what are we soliciting for chemo/India?

Unfortunately , time is luxury in this case. Having a fresh set of eyes on this, might even do this case good.

Oh la la....it's starting to look promising again. Thanks Pavore, where have you been all my life. Next thing I would be worried about is quality. Shei there's a proverb which says the house built on sand na wind go carry am...how does one protect against strong winds and rain during raining season? Abi it's safe to say 9ja winds no dey carry house /roof......
You know this looks to me like tents people be putting up for wedding ceremonies, haba I'm surprised a lot of Nigerians haven't tapped into this. Just put up tent and add fan and sand na...una don build GH be that

What's the size of this one?

Pavore9:
@TAEpiphany, the same greenhouse grows whatever you want, u can easily grow tomatoes, cucumber, capsicum, lettuce & cabbage inside one greenhouse. Once u are grounded in the knowledge, anything is possible, u can even grow strawberry aquaponically.

Attached picture is a N500k greenhouse and the seeds of the tomatoes and capsicum were brought in from lsreal. This greenhouse produce is specifically for the export market.

You have done well. Please get some rest.

jethro2:
I have been reading a lot of interesting contributions. I was hoping, i could attend to most concerns. But alas No. Its been an hectic day on the farm today.To be back soon

Got it.! You are the best. I will get in touch via email.

mchuxx:
Resent. check ur email well, same @tae

Nice info. But another question is, these kits are tailored to grow tomatoes (I stand to be corrected), can you use the same system to grow cucumber?
Another thing, the wider your market is the sometimes better. If you have a too narrow market and you harvest and for whatever reason your customers drop the ball, how do you get rid of your produce before it rots?

It's nice in theory to think contracts can never be broken, or is there a way to have a contract bond to say if customer disappoints they will pay 80% of cost? I doubt it. The supply chain in Nigeria is still very fuzzy, in some cases you need good leg-work apart from your produce being good to be a choice supplier for these supermarkets.

We haven't even considered wastage, chances that the greenhouse might not weather the storm for more than a year etc . The analysis you posted is suggesting about 2.3M for a 2 year period. I like to go by worst case scenario and if we do that, your breaking-even future is very bleak.

choiceman:
. For a greenhouse farming, there are crops you can grow that fetch you big money. If you grow say a beefsteak tomato, you can sell them as high as 400/kg, just like you is sold in shop rite. you can go to construction companies where there are a lot of expatriate and market this specie of tomato. Another thing you can grow in a greenhouse that is very marketable in Nigeria is the English Cucumber one goes for 600 Naira in Nigeria market. Guys threads like this can't lose substance, the is like a brain storming session, i am very sure one amongst us will have a break through soon. Attached is the payback calculation of a 8x24m tunnel or greenhouse. Please don't mind the orientation, i don't have a scanner, used my phone camera

Sorry I gave you the wrong email, there was a typo can you please resend? Thanks

taepiphany@gmail.com

mchuxx:


its been sent. check ur emails. also @bettymygirl and @chuckyjones

On the DIzengoff website they claim their 24x8 will produce 5-7 tonnes within 6-8 months if I’m reading correctly. They also claim that’s the equivalent of what you will get from 1 hectare if you used traditional means. Jethro can you speak to this? I know you mentioned you were told you can get 20tonnes from 1 hectare.
If we place the total price to get the greenhouse running at 1.5 million and you produce at least 5000Kg (5 tonnes), and you sell in worst case scenario at 100/kg, you will be making a measly 500K after first harvest. This means it will take about 4 cycles (about 3 yrs, all things being equal) before you can even make your investment back. And you have to consider, cost of maintenance too. The figures are not looking attractive to me. They sound like a rip-off

Could you please send a cost analysis to me too?It would be great if you can also include the total yield per greenhouse. Thanks.

Email is taepihany@gmail.com

mchuxx:


I don't have existing pictures but I will setup a Greenhouse in Delta starting 3rd Feb. I will post pictures as work progresses on this thread. Its a big Greenhouse with metal poles.

Jethro, you are beginning to annoy me now oo.....which kain torture be this....you know we are thirsty you will pop in drop info...dissapear....una wan make we die of thirst? ......kilodeeeee.... please I love your narratives, I can't wait to hear what happened with the woman that said she can buy trailer load....let me guess, when you took tomatoes there, she start calling stupid price ba?.....biko let us know wharrapun na.....

@Abariwiseman please can you give me an idea of the cost of building a storage faciltity at least 5000sqm which I believe is also the same as an acre (correct me if I'm wrong) and also do I have to use block, is steel a viable and less expensive option?

@Klassicomega have you dealt with building a storage facility before?

Hello,

Does anyone have an idea on how much it will cost to build storage facility for non-perishable goods on 1 acre of land in Lagos or Ibadan?

Oh no, I don't have that problem. I just wanted to be clear on what the maturity period should be. Some say 9mons, some say 13. And also what to expect when harvest comes because most articles make it seem you harvest all at once . And I also wanted check if all the planted suckers will make it or fruit. Thanks.

world1:

Sorry for replying late been busy with our WABI project.
The mature in batches
I don't know why a 13 months plantain will not fruit.
where is the source of your suckers?
Is it well taking care of, I mean did you feed the plantain well?
Is this problem affecting all your olantaing or few?

Lol@lose acre of land...I feel you. Thanks for the info.

aguiyi1:


the sizes will be different and that is what will prompt you to harvest some and leave the others to mature more.

use goggle to get as much information as you want on plantain plantation(we are begining to derail this thread and i dont know how the owner will react to it, i dont want to lose my 1 acre of land )

Thanks for this. It's good to know, so you don't have lofty expectations, imagine waiting for 9months and 14months later no fruit, na begin to cry be that.....after the 15months would majority have matured? say you had 1000, should you be expecting half of it after 15months or majority?

aguiyi1:


my dear leave most of those e-farmers we have on nairaland, majority of them do not own a cutlass let alone a farm land.

before i ventured into farming, i spoke with mr. murphy of IITA ibadan. i was to buy suckers from him but friends discouraged me due to distance of transporting them to Nkanu, in Enugu state. i finally got suckers in Ph from a friend of my dad who sold to me at very cheap price .

plantain gets very matured for harvest from 15months with some even reaching 18months. if you dont weed the grass on your farm, that will affect the yield .

it all stated from a thread like this by lesupnigeria. i read the thread repeatedly until something in me got fired up .then i went online to do my own research and thats it

Thanks Op, you will see my farm pixs by February God willing, i already got a free 1 acre of land from world1. God bless you both and Dyt who opened that thread

That's the question I had as well. Some claim you can harvest in 9-10months, this is usually the time the flower/fingers are beginning to develop. Even if you have mature ones it will be in the minority. Most farmers will tell you 13months, but it could also be due to variety. Also from what I'm gathering, plantain mature in batches your 1 acre will hardly mature all at once. I wish someone can clarify on this and also if there's anything you can do to make them fruit, if they don't after 13months.

100Cents:


Plaintain is a spreading crop.

So if you give me land to farm plaintain for one year, I cannot agree with you because the first purchased suckers is what I will harvest in 12 months and the profit starts coming in from the 2nd and 3rd years when news suckers (2-5) per previous suckers have shooted out.

As plantain and banana are, they are the only crops I believe can pay for land that you purchased at high price for farming but this cannot be true in the first year..

World1....I have seen posts on this forum claiming plantain is ready for harvest at 9-10months , some say over a year, which is it exactly?
How do plantains typically mature? do they mature in batches or all at once?
If the plantain trees are over 13 months with no fruits, what are the things one can do to speed up the fruiting, or does that mean such tree will never fruit?

Good to know that. Please i would also love to see the fruits of this plantain specie. And if at all possible the fruits side by side with the normal breeds. That way we can decide what specie to go for. Let me watch in silent mode for now, I do not want to disturb your educative thread...good job.

world1:

Farm management comes after you might have successful set up your planting farm. Moreover we are trying to use this thread as a medium to teach everyone all they will need to know about plantain farm setup and how to do it themselves

Nice to hear....how about management fees if you are managing the farm? I would love to see that included.....

world1:

Fortunately we don't charge a dime for consultation if we are setting up for you. We are trying to propagate our lovely suckers so we can buy back suckers from our networks of farm as the demand for this type of suckers is getting higher everyday.