Maximus69:


Your questions please!

And make it brief so that i can grasp what you're trying to sort out, i'm not used to too much reading most especially when you're not given me the impression that you've got something tangible to offer!

So once again go straight to your questions and please make it brief.

Thank you!

LOL

If you want your apologetics to be respected I'd suggest you need to vastly up your game, and possible be more careful when selecting your target audience.

Try a pulpit, in a church, on sunday, my guess is they'll lap all your nonsense up!

I have no need to question unevidenced assertions and fanciful claims. Those are all your questions.

Maximus69 purports to be in a position to lecture me on discourse. Lol! Well, Bleep me running naked through a briar patch during a blizzard while wearing ruby-red spiked heels.

Mythology fanboy hubris at its most rectally self-inserted ...

Maximus69:

If you're here to ask questions, do so by been specific about your questions, use your thought provoking questions to prove the logic wrong.....

Prove your logic wrong? Lol! There is no logic in what you said in your first reply here. No logic at all!

Maximus69, I mean for crying out loud here's you literally kicking yourself in the nuts lol:

You initially said,

Maximus69:

Everything God did goes PERFECTLY with logic

Then,

Maximus69:
So it's not God's fault

??

Is that what you call logic?

And that's just a tip. But lest you merely think I'm whistling in the dark, let's go back to your first response on this thread:

Maximus69:
the only problem here is you've not met his friends whom he sent out to explain what actually happened in order to sanctify his name (purify his personality) amongst those complaining like you!

You mean "make up apologetic shit to hand-wave away valid objections"?

Because that's all that I've ever seen mythology fanboys do here, and I suspect you'll be no different. Even if I assume by way of hypothesis, that the farcical cartoon imaginary magic man presented in your mythology is something other, than the product of the rectal passage of a superstitious pre-scientific goat herder with a dangerous penchant for hallucinogenic fungi, many of the blind assertions within that mythology, purporting to present "facts" about said entity, rapidly dissolve into a collapsed intellectual soufflé of the absurd the moment they're subject to proper critical analysis. I suspect I won't see that precedent broken on this occasion either.

Maximus69:
God didn't create humans with default

Even if I assume once again, by way of hypothesis, that humans were the result of the farcical conjuring trick asserted in the requisite mythology to constitute our origins, as opposed to the result of testable natural processes diligently uncovered by properly educated scientists, there are several problems here. Not the least of which being the turgid little Gorgonzola of plot holes known as the "Fall of Man" myth, which has been covered multiple times.

I also have the little matter of your language failure above. Default what, precisely? Only last time I sat in the requisite classes, the word "default" referred to an option of some sort that was considered to be a natural or appropriate choice, in the absence of any substantive reason to select a different option.

As a corollary of this understanding, your opening phrase above ceases to make sense. But once again, I've learned to observe the deficiencies of mythology fanboys in a number of different spheres of activity, and trace said deficiencies to the entire supernaturalist modus operandi, which at bottom, consists of making shit up, then pretending that said made up shit somehow magically dictates how the universe operates, regardless of how vigorously the universe disagrees with said pretence, and flushes the requisite banal apologetic assertions down the toilet. But I digress.

Let's move on and examine this latest excursion into the world of a posteriori fabrication, shall we? The a posteriori in question almost certainly becoming ex recto upon further examination?

Maximus69:
his purpose is making one pair out of all other creatures on planet earth to be intelligent so that they can take care of all the other creatures.

Apparently you appear to be unaware of some elementary facts here. One being that the other 2.4 million known species (and climbing) don't need our intervention in order to continue producing offspring and leading their lives. As was the case for the millions of species that existed in eras before the existence of humans. I suspect everything from trilobites to Tiktaalik is pointing and laughing at you here. Furthermore I suspect there are a good many species extant today that would, if they could articulate the requisite thought, wish that humans would Bleep off and die and leave said species to their own devices.

Oh, and just in case you're tempted to peddle the usual creationist guff at this point, I'll advise you strongly not to bother, because said guff frequently fails to rise to the level of competence required to be worthy of a point of view by those of us with functioning neurons. We only bother with said guff, from the standpoint of the public duty of subjecting manifest nonsense to the shredding it deserves.

Maximus69:
This [sic] intelligent creatures have the ability to do so many things due to their intelligence, unlike all other creatures living explicitly on instinct.

Apparently you are also unaware that numerous non-human species exhibit quantifiably intelligent behaviours. The scientific literature presents abundant documentation thereof. I suggest you read some of it.

Oh, and as someone familiar with invertebrate zoology, I'm aware of various spiders, bugs, ticks and mites that exhibit behaviours impossible for humans to emulate. I have much fun making the door-knocking variety of mythology fanboy prolapse when I reach for the requisite scientific papers documenting said behaviours.

Maximus69:
God warned the first human pair that since they're going to become many in no time, it will become difficult for them to cohabit with diverse notions and hobbies

Er, citation for this assertion? Even if we ignore all the data from palaeontology and molecular phylogeny, in order to entertain this excursion into nebulous whimsy on your part, I do not recall any admonition of the sort appearing in the various renditions of Genesis I've read, so unless you have something other than fabrication to offer here, I think we can toss this assertion into the bin as well.

Maximus69:
so they'll have to rely on him for guidance (right and wrong) to know how to deal with fellow intelligent creatures like themselves!

In other words, you've just admitted that your brand of mythology fanboyism reduces ethics to "Magic man says so". How predictably lame.

Maximus69:
Another invisible intelligent being convinced them that they can do better than that if they decide now to rebel against God's authority, they will not die has God said, it will be an opportunity to become Gods in the midst of the coming generation, they'll be in the position to make rules on what is right or wrong, they will be able to grasp (SEE) more opportunities than simply relying on God always!

Well, leaving the talking snake aside, which is another example of mythological farce, this narrative is a crock. I'll come to that shortly.

Maximus69:
The door is opened for doubts against their life giver, and they chose to rebel against God!

Again, we'll see why this assertion of yours is basically yet more ex recto fabrication in a moment ...

Maximus69:
So it's not God's fault for making intelligent creatures on planet earth

Au contraire!

[1] Certain key principles are understood in every properly constituted jurisdictions. One of these being that those in positions of power and responsibility, do not escape censure even if underlings carry out reprehensible actions on behalf of those in power, and certainly do not escape censure for their own actions.

[2] There's also a basic principle extant in modern jurisdictions, known as ethical competence. Which, in short, means that those lacking the ability to engage in even elementary ethical reasoning, cannot be held responsible for their actions on that basis.

Unfortunately, it just so happens to be one of the central assertions of this mythological narrative, that the requisite stool pigeons were purportedly "created" by your cartoon invisible magic man, precisely bereft of the requisite capabilities. Which means that until they acted in the requisite manner, they did not possess the ability to determine right from wrong. They were, quite simply, ethical nonentities, and asserted by your mythology to be "created" thus by your cartoon invisible magic man. No properly developed jurisdiction would consider them culpable, precisely because they were completely bereft of the capacity for ethical thought. That state of being ethical nonentities, is precisely what your mythology asserts the requisite characters were.

Furthermore, since it is also asserted in your mythology, that your cartoon invisible magic man purportedly possesses "perfect foreknowledge" of the future, apart from the issues arising from this assertion with respect to the existence of genuine free will itself, this assertion, if true, means that your cartoon invisible magic man knew in advance every detail of what would happen, and went ahead anyway launching a prepared trap for the unfortunate stool pigeons.

As a corollary of combining these assertions from your mythology, and their appropriate import, those of us who paid attention in class, are led to regard this entire fable as a sinister piece of toying with helpless puppets on the part of your cartoon invisible magic man. In short, your cartoon invisible magic man is not merely culpable, but revealed in this fable to be a sadistic, manipulative Svengali figure.

Then, of course, we have the absurdity of asserting that a universe fabricated from the outset to contain a built-in self-destruct mechanism, that can be triggered by a woman eating the wrong piece of fruit, constitutes a "perfect creation". A farcical notion that only a deluded mythology fanboy could entertain. Unless of course, the definition of "perfect" being applied here, is some idiosyncratic mythology fanboy fabrication deviating from the regular definition by several light years.

Did making this shit up make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?

Maximus69, if you walked in here, intent on peddling your nonsense of course, and expected your claims not to be heckled by someone with opposing views, I assume you'd be awfully disappointed and/or frustrated.

You want Unsubstantiated Preaching which you will find in room 666 in the basement, down the stairs, second on your left, past the toilets, the black door marked 'Discard Reasoning before entering'.

Thank you.

Maximus69:


The bolded is what i'm here to correct, everything God did goes PERFECTLY with logic, the only problem here is you've not met his friends whom he sent out to explain what actually happened in order to sanctify his name (purify his personality) amongst those complaining like you!

The LOGIC!

God didn't create humans with default, his purpose is making one pair out of all other creatures on planet earth to be intelligent so that they can take care of all the other creatures.
This intelligent creatures have the ability to do so many things due to their intelligence, unlike all other creatures living explicitly on instinct.

God warned the first human pair that since they're going to become many in no time, it will become difficult for them to cohabit with diverse notions and hobbies, so they'll have to rely on him for guidance (right and wrong) to know how to deal with fellow intelligent creatures like themselves!

Another invisible intelligent being convinced them that they can do better than that if they decide now to rebel against God's authority, they will not die has God said, it will be an opportunity to become Gods in the midst of the coming generation, they'll be in the position to make rules on what is right or wrong, they will be able to grasp (SEE) more opportunities than simply relying on God always!

The door is opened for doubts against their life giver, and they chose to rebel against God!

So it's not God's fault for making intelligent creatures on planet earth {Deuteronomy 35:2} many have come and kept their integrity to the end before God, despite all the hardship their first parent's rebellion brought upon them.

IF "Everything God did goes PERFECTLY with logic", then why isn't his creation perfect? How come his 'PERFECT' plan got derailed by a talking snake? He obviously didn't think through things LOGICALLY before putting the talking snake in the garden with Adam & Eve, & not putting some sort of protective fence or moat around the 'tree of knowledge of good & evil'.

What a screw up your PERFECT & LOGICAL god is!

So other then the fact you haven't demonstrated any logic, nor any evidence to support the very foundation of your claim...

Come on even the mysterious fart leaves telltale signs of their existence...

You now also concede that your god is a complete Bleep up?! A god that would create a species that life spans is essentially the length on gnats bollock hair, in comparison to the universe we reside in? Come on... is this all you theists have? This is what you cling to?!

A pan dimensional invisible wizard that is all knowing, all powerful etc.... and will only bestow his knowledge to illiterate, superstitious fuckwits, in the arsehole of nowhere... with absolute no way to prove it. If you truly believe that utter, utter, utter bollocks, then I have some magic beans I wish to sell you.

So, to start , to justify your argument, you must clearly demonstrate the existence of your particular god, the attributes you claim for it and only then move on to evidencing the fanciful claim that it or they created us, as humanity. Otherwise, the precious little spiel you wrote is mendacious, infantile drivel and should be dismissed. Muppet.

Oh, and please, note that evolution is an established well evidenced science as has been demonstrated almost ad nauseum. So, when trying to evidence your obviously mistaken claim that humans are NOT products of evolution, please do go off to Oslo and collect your Nobel prize.

When you are exposing a scam; the nastiest responses you get are not from the people perpetrating the scam. The perpetrators just want you to go away quietly. Ironically, the nastiest responses come from the current victims of the scam.

Unfortunately we are born ignorant with a willingness to believe anything and learn from those who come before us. When those before us believe in magic woo woo, then we grow to believe in the same bullshit.

Because religion is anti intellectual, anti science and anti reason, it helps keeps people ignorant , dogmatic, closed minded ,bigoted and hateful. It is no coincidence that religiosity is highest in places with high levels of poverty and ignorance (as in lack of eduction). You don't HAVE to be poor, ignorant and stupid to be a believer, but it's certainly an advantage.

Atheists don't get much sympathy here in Nigeria, I've observed.....except that this is changing, as I believe that the Internet has acted to make places a lot less insular and, perhaps, more open-minded.

There is a sense that Atheists are--somehow--this enemy of religion, and that we have no morality or ethics.

I usually treat religion as a taboo subject at work (as it should be), as there are people who will vandalize your car or treat you like you have bubonic plague.

As an Atheist, I can't be trusted around children, I have a mission in life to turn people away from God, I have an interest in furthering the homosexual agenda, and I don't deserve to call myself a real human being.

Another question occurs to me: How is forcing people into church to fix suicidal tendencies any different than faith healing? Or, for that matter, exorcism?

budaatum:


I never said anything about god or gods existing, Tama, and so far this hasn't been about the existence of gods but about the Bible, that clearly exists, and according to you, kills and instructs you to kill despite numerous people telling you the Bible does not instruct anyone to kill anyone.

Deuteronomy 13:13-17

13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known)
14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you.
15 You must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.
16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt

Exodus 31:12-15

12 And the Lord said to Moses
13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you.
14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.

Isaiah 13:15-18

15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated.
17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes, who do not care for silver and have no delight in gold.
18 Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants, nor will they look with compassion on children.

Do you want more? I have many examples.

budaatum:
Here is a similar ignorant response I have received in another thread about the Christian God as some are giving here about the Muslim God, though this claims God directly killed, as in God is the terrorist boko haram.

Do let me know what you all think.

budaatum:

Currently, religious people make me want to return to atheism, except I'm finding no side has a monopoly on an inability to use the brains inside their heads, as you might have gathered from the ignorant post of an atheist that I've posted here.

Have you not read the Bible? Are you unaware of the Quaran? The quote you cited sounds perfectly accurate to me.

Maybe you should present your side of the argument....something when you made some assertions on another thread you got roundly spanked and refused or could not come back with an answer.

So, do tell us why you think your god or gods exist, and demonstrate your claim with some evidence.

Or of course, just Bleep off.

budaatum:

This, is the sort of ignorance you talk about. Your error however, is in thinking this stupidity is the stupidity of God and every one else who reads the Bible and not that of he individual.

A wiser person might argue that "THEY APPLY IT" is the same as "TEST their FAITH". But like you, why test the brain when you can make up crap in your head and believe it?

True Christians do not TEST their FAITH: THEY APPLY IT. LOL.... and you see the results! They have been applying it for 2000 years and not a fucking thing is going their way! LOLOLOL

budaatum:

Only the brainless unquestioningly follow instructions as you assume they do, despite the fact that you know they don't follow the instruction that clearly states, "don't kill" and "don't lie".

Are you sure your understanding of the sign you see at the door isn't "Check Your Faith Brain At The Front Door"? You have my permission to ignore it!

Your god butchers 25 million innocent men, women and Children in your Holy book of "do not kill." Shut up. Your god threatens eternal death and damnation to all who disbelieve in his bullshit. Shut up. Even the Jesus of the New Testament is exempt from his own teachings as he beats men and women in the market place and overturns their tables. As he displays his bigotry and instructs disciples that non-believers are swine. Only a piece of shit follows a piece of shit god. The Bible is not a book of morality, it is the opposite. From beginning to end it is a book of God's failures, blood sacrifices to right those failures, and an ultimate promise of damnation, even for most who believe.

The sign on the door clearly states, "CHECK YOUR FAITH". You just don't have the ability to see it with your God Goggles on. Take them off for just a moment and you will begin to see the shit you are standing in.

At this juncture, you have stopped putting forward any arguments and are just throwing your toys out of the pram.

Once again, here are the verses. Unless you're dyslexic, you should be able to read and make a good counter-argument:
[b]

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).

[/b]

I can wager I have read more versions of the "bible" including versions labelled "anathema" , "lost" gospels and other ancillary texts than you have decades of life.

All you are displaying here is an appalling ignorance of debate, your own vacuous arrogance and a severe lack of any corroboration for your claims. You have failed to reference any verse that contradicts my position as illustrated by your own bible. You're just another simpleton who has been preached at, cherry picked verses, done apologetics 101, viewed some YouTube vids and is suddenly a professor of biblical meaning. Despite having NO ANSWER for my post, you seem to appear here on a depressingly regular basis to entertain me all with your lively ignorance, mendacity and lack of knowledge on your faith's origins.

When your first claim of your god's lack of omnipotence and irresponsibility regarding evil was proven wrong in so many verses from your Bible, you have resorted to empty insults.

Entertaining as your stupidity and lack of debating skills may be to your peers, it doesn't cut the mustard here. It just makes you appear as a mewling amateur.

So please crawl off, take your hermeneutics elsewhere and shove them where monkeys flavor their bananas.

Muppet.

budaatum:

Yet, hear you making the most noise.

I still have faith in you though. Let me know when you've read the entire book instead of quoting selective verses out of your misunderstood context.

Didn't you see the sign? "Check Your Faith At The Front Door"

Your posts would be a lot less juvenile and your responses much more thought out had you simply followed the directions.

budaatum:

This is the first post of your's where you've sounded somewhat civil. Soon you'd actually work out the difference between a discussion and an argument.

I have faith in you.

And still no answers from you.

You do not have any, empty vessels seem to make the most noise.

Fucking muppet

budaatum:

I really wish people did read some of it like you do because they'd be obeying "don't steal" and "don't murder", which I'm certain you are aware many don't obey.

Have you not noticed that many have already pointed out your errors and misunderstanding? Why would I waste my time repeating what you ignore?

You have given no alternative explanation for those verses that clearly claim omnipotence for your god. You seem to be claiming some "deeper understanding" but without one single example to illustrate your assertion..

You then bring in random fragments of commandments, once again with no explanation as to their relevance to the discussion.

Perhaps you could dilute the cordials you are drinking a bit more, at least until you start to be coherent. .

As it is you are making no argument, merely typing at random

budaatum:

What I can't get is why you can't take responsibility for your own misunderstandings.

Your quotes and references do not state that any God is responsible for the evil that you do. If it did, there'd clearly be no point in throwing your evil ass in jail for what God supposedly did!

Perhaps try reading the entire book so you know what you talk about.

Yes, as usual you have shown your inability to read and comprehend. You have given no refutation, merely yet another ignorant assertion. Seemingly based on your unsupported opinion not on the texts.

As you are incapable of a debate I suggest you continue playing with your toys in the sandpit.

budaatum:

Are you some pastor perhaps, who does not appreciate one using the brain inside one's own head? Isn't it ironic that you want to tell me what to think and how to reason and what to believe and what my own position and understanding must be? Despite just about everyone telling you you are responsible for your own evil, you still insist on blaming your stupidity on the Bible, and in a thread entitled, "Do not trust the crap you fill your head with without checking the evidence that is in front of your eyes"!

I'm going to advise you to ditch the faith in what you believe and consider becoming an atheist and check the evidence in front of you. You might need the Jesus stuff to help your eyes work, but the more you practice disbelieving and checking the evidence, the more you'd likely be able to see that you are the one resorting to "straw man arguments, non sequiturs and nonsense, including ad hominems".

That, after all, is what is meant by substituting your position for that of those you discuss with just so you can have something to argue against. Those smarter than you would tell you to enjoy your one hand clap.

Seriously? So if you go and kill someone, "your god is responsible for it"?

Sounds very irresponsible of you to me that you refuse to take responsibility for your evil! I'm just glad the rest of us aren't so stupid or we'd be imprisoning "your god" and not you.

I replied with quotes and reference from the bible that refute your assertion as to the limits of your god's powers.

You then in three replies resort to ad hominem, straw men, mendacious assertions and nothing else.

Either you have not read your bible, do not understand your bible or are just a rather juvenile troll.

The correct and accepted method of discourse is to prove your claim as I have refuted it.

So far you have merely made more unsubstantiated claims. Coupled, as I am now accustomed to, when exposing theists' mendacity, insults, straw men and ad hominems.

And I must admit your insults lack any sort of subtlety and appear to be fired in a haphazard manner, rather like a blind hamster wielding a crossbow.
The straw men are badly constructed, leaking, and seem to be made of greenery rather than robust, yellow gold, dry stalks of substance. The quality of apologists on these forums truly leaves much to be desired.

And the lies are just fucking transparent. On the ennui scale it rates a 9.9.

To make it easy for you, once again, I repeat my refutation below.

[b]“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).[/b]

It's as if you aren't even trying now. Seriously... You're now attempting to go after me with your lame candy-ass weak material?..... Ugh... Look, Jr., allow me to give you a couple of quick pointers. First of all, you totally screwed the pooch by assuming I even have a brain functiong at your astounding capacity. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure most everybody here is in utter awe of your intellectual prowess. (But that's another topic altogether.) Secondly, though, where is that spark of comedic genius I saw from you earlier? It's as though you have just completely given up. So sad...

I am worthy and deserving of a far greater quality and more intellectually calculated levels of insults than those recently directed toward me here. I wonder who's to blame for this travesty. Again, it pains me to no end that I have to suffer such ill-planned and mediocre taunts from an amateur that is clearly hampered by some form of cerebral deficiency. And I regret I did not see the signs of such sooner, so as to have potentially avoided the indignation I now have to endure.

Well, shit. I suppose my expectations for you were just a bit too high... *exasperated sigh*... Of course, I know I have only myself to blame for that. I really should have known better, considering your current condition. You're what... twelve or thirteen, maybe? So, yeah, going through puberty must be very stressful and disorienting for you at the moment. Cheer up, though, buddy, because it does eventually get better. However, just one little piece of advice for you, if I may. When masturbating to all those anime videos, please exercise some common courtesy and clean up your mess. It is totally unfair to make your mommy clean up after you. There's a good lad.

Now fùck off until you finally [A] learn how to taunt or [B] read your poisonous book.

budaatum:

I'm glad my trolling is obvious. It might make you use your brain instead of believing non sequiturs that you create inside your own head and claim is inside the head of others.

Did you not see verses in the Bible that read "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not covet they neighbours goods"? If people take it like you claim they do or should, would they steal or commit murder?

I advise you become an atheist. Evidence might matter to you instead of crap you create inside your head and chose to believe.

So, not having any answers to the verses in your books that clearly and unequivocally state that your supposed god is responsible for everything including all the "evil" in the world you resort to straw man arguments, non sequiturs and nonsense, including the attempted, but failed, ad hominem.

That is symptomatic of a failed intellect.

If you have an answer to the refutation of your claims which I laid out in detail with all those quotes from your book, then please, enlighten us all.

It seems however you don't have any answers. You haven't read, or even understood your bible at all, but instead have made up some saccharin flavored religion of your own without the naughty bits.

budaatum has no pants on.

Muppet.

budaatum:

Lol! You must think not using one's brain when reading the Bible applies to the instructions that you give too. I wonder how better to show you to rely on the evidence in front of you instead of thinking everyone is brain dead like your are.

Well, watch me not obey you. Its called using one's own brain and data.

budaatum:

Do you understand your Bible, and do you reason at all? Or is it your claim that you are not even responsible for your own misunderstanding?

Please explain how I get thrown into hell (according to the Bible), for "murders, rapes, abusers" if "according to (your understanding of) the bible your god does know everything and thus is responsible for all murders, rapes, abusers etc"?

So now your trolling is obvious. I gave you clear and cogent quotes from your bible that refute your assertions.

You didn't answer.

I never mentioned hell. I do not believe in a religious hell . the rest of your 'answer' is a non sequitur.

You should answer each verse.

budaatum:

Seriously? So if you go and kill someone, "your god is responsible for it"?

Sounds very irresponsible of you to me that you refuse to take responsibility for your evil! I'm just glad the rest of us aren't so stupid or we'd be imprisoning "your god" and not you.

Isaiah 45:7 KJV I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So you don't read your bible either?

And yes, according to the bible your god does know everything and thus is responsible for all murders, rapes, abusers etc: viz:

[b]“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).[/b]

I wouldn't resort to ad hominem attacks like stupid if I were you, especially if you lack the intelligence to understand that culpability for an act need not be limited solely to the person committing that act. Even fallible human law recognises the act of aiding and abetting a crime, so how stupid would someone have to be to claim a perfectly benevolent being with limitless power and knowledge exists, but is not in any way culpable for doing nothing to prevent ubiquitous suffering? Worse still is the claim this being designed and created a planet where continuous ubiquitous suffering was an inevitable consequence, and long before the first humans evolved for this asinine idea that such a deity could shift the blame onto one species of evolved primate.

Yes indeed, you'd be wise to avoid throwing words like stupid around, if such a simple concept is beyond your rationale. Or the simple concept that claiming that same deity regularly intervenes through miracles, but cherry picks the result in the most arbitrary and callous fashion, and yet is not culpable for suffering it could therefore according to your religion's own rationale, have easily prevented.

Next time some rich televangelist is thanking your deity for his wealth or someone is gushing praise on that deity for the miracle of saving their life in a catastrophe that killed thousands, including children and babies, you may want to ponder what manner of cruel sadistic amoral being would wield such power in such a callous and indifferent way. Then thank your lucky stars there isn't a shred of objective evidence that it is real.

I know I do, every day....

So please now, fùck off until you have actually read your poisonous book.

CaveAdullam:
Thanks for trying to school me Tama, lol. Once again you are guilty of faith.

How come you quickly reached a conclusion that a god is responsible for evil when you don't believe in the existence of that god? You even want me to "understand"............lol

Anyways you are right but unfortunately for you that "god" is also your "god."

Now you can know the difference between "god" and "God."

Thank you.

I will repeat what I told you before, that I am arguing from a position of theism to uncover the fallacies, evil, and inconsistencies in religion. If I steadily maintained my position as an atheist, my response for almost every question would be "I do not believe in a god, please demonstrate such". I do not want to slam the door shut on conversation, so I maintain the argument AS IF there was a god and your religious dogma was valid.

In your feeble attempt to snatch an "ah hah, gotcha" moment, you are blatantly ignoring the position I have accepted in order to further a conversation. And since I did previously describe this manner of conversation (to you) by accepting the theist dogma for the sake of debate, you have displayed dishonesty by grasping at an imaginary gotcha moment..

Based on the theist theology, this god is responsible for everything, nothing happens that this god is not aware of, and capable of predicting and changing. And just for the record, if there was a god, free will would not exist. But that is a can of worms that would require a separate thread.

Based on my personal position as an atheist, murder is one of the most heinous of despicable acts, something I would be incredibly loath to do.

I do not capitalize the noun "god" because I do not accept it as being proven to exist, and it if did exist, it definitely is not worthy of any respect or owning a capitalized name.

I do not call a worm "Worm", and I do not call this unproven hypothetical god "God".

If you desire for me to change the capitalization you must [1] prove a god exists and [2] that this god is worthy of respect.

Daejoyoung:
Well, from my understanding of the bible and from what l have observed, this world is not what God wants it to be yet. lt is a fallen world where God does not reign supreme and his will is not done on earth as it is in heaven.
Apart from the bible, my observation alone tells me that this world is the work of a programmer( not necessarily a magical creator). This programmer also probably operates by faith and calls things that are not as though they were.
There are bad designs in this program, but the programmer doesn't want to be involved in this world( his program) to directly fix it. The bad designs are inevitable and come as a result of the good, for instance earthquakes in a way are necessary for our balance and survival on earth, but they can also cause destruction and death.
So evil is inevitable in this world by design, if there is to be good in the first place.
So it seems the programmer doesn't want to necessarily remove evil, rather he has given his robots power to overcome all evil and to be completely in charge, but they have to discover this power and it takes a long time, so he grudgingly intervenes once in a while perhaps until the son of man becomes a true ruler of the worlds, having power over death, sicknesses and diseases, then that would be the kingdom of God on earth ruled by man.

....And now you descend into pulling the most piss poor theist argument out of your rear end. The Programmer Analogy? Really?

For starters, your argument is dead before it even takes off because programmers can only do what the language allows them to do. They cannot do anything that the computer cannot perform. They only know as much about the language and the capacity of the computer as they do. They are neither all-powerful nor all-knowing.

That's not the characteristics that theists have assigned to their Gods.

[1] You said, "this world is not what God wants it to be yet."
Another unevidenced assertion, this long seemingly endless list of unevidenced assertions is very tedious. However the claim doesn't help, as it directly contradicts the claim that the christian deity has limitless power. This is precisely what I mean when I stated that many religious claims are directly at odds with the objective evidence. Epicurus summed up the contradiction nicely, and did it millennia before humans created tour religion and deity.

[2] You said, "Apart from the bible, my observation alone tells me that this world is the work of a programmer"
I have now run out of patience with your bare assertions, and all such assertions will be dismissed in the same manner they are asserted. quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur is the original Latin of the newly popularised epistemooogical razor now renamed after the late author and polemecist, Christopher Hitchens.

[3] You also said, "the programmer doesn't want to be involved in this world( his program) to directly fix it."
Aaaaaand another unevidenced assertion, and again one that is directly contradicted by the core teachings of christianity in the claim for miracles, AS I ALREADY POINTED OUT, do you even read my responses?

[4] You then said, "The bad designs are inevitable "
Not from an omniscient omnipotent deity, that's an asinine assertion, and again unevidenced, and again already been refuted. This is starting to sound a lot like I'm being preached at, and I don't care for that than you.

[5] Your next statement was so ridiculous, if I didn't know better, I'd have called troll by now: "he grudgingly intervenes once in a while"
Another contradiction, and this designer is starting to sound like an incompetent bungling halfway, like the one Heller describes in Catch 22, lol. Do you know what omniscient and omnipotent even mean?

[6] You continued, "Religion and science are not opposed to one another. "
Of course they are, don't be absurd. However the statement is entirely moot, as science validates its assertion with objective evidence, and religion and theists can't demonstrate any for their claims. Nor is science the pursuit of happiness, again this is absurd rhetoric, science is a method, a tool box to help us understand how the physical world and universe works. How we use that knowledge is entirely subjective.

[7] Shamelessly, you went on saying, "we know that God doesn't want us to waste our talents"
Lol. Looooool. You can keep claiming this arrant nonsense, but knowledge requires objective evidence, and you can demonstrate none.

The nonsense at the end about the origins of science is as laughable as it is irrelevant. Science is a method, that gathers and tests data and models of the physical world and universe to expand our knowledge of them. Religion is not supported by any objective evidence, neither is the existence of any deity.

To claim science is a religion is imbecillic, a cursory Google of the definitions of both words destroys that forcible piece of rhetoric. So I'm at a loss as to what you hope to achieve by peddling such a dishonest claim?

Science may well have its origins in philosophy, so what. Modern hydraulic suspension and pneumatic tyres originated from solid wooden wheels on wooden axles, its beyond stupid to claim that means they're the same, again I'm baffled as to what you hope to gain from such obviously dishonest rhetoric.

WHAT OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE FOR ANY DEITY?

If the answer is none, then comparing theism to science is farcical.

CaveAdullam:
My God is not responsible for the spaghetti I ate this afternoon but He is responsible enough to give me mouth with a nice sets of healthy teeth and tongue so that I can eat anything that pleases me.

Shikena!

Your dishonesty leaves a stench that makes vomit appear pleasant.

According to christian dogma, your god created the entire universe, is incredibly powerful and all-knowing. According to christian dogma there is no higher power than your god.

Understand this, if there is "evil" in this world, your god is responsible for it.

Daejoyoung:

If God is responsible for the evil in the world, then how come he wants to redeem the world? and why do we pray for the kingdom of God to come and his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven? Come on now, if God actually controlled this world, then everything would be different, but God is not really in charge of this world and there is a better world to come where there would be no more death and sorrow, and this l speak by faith. This faith shall save me if l continue therein, not by works of the law but only faith working through love.

Do you believe your deity has no choice but to allow evil and suffering? Why do people pray for it to intervene then? What are we to make of claims for miraculous interventions. The claim that a deity can intervene, and does so to create miracles, is directly contradicted by the fact it allows continuous and ubiquitous suffering. Not just allows it either, but designed and created such a world, with ubiquitous suffering in the form of disease and predation, and this existed for millions of years before humans evolved, thus exists independently of any human actions.

The insentient and therefore indifferent process of evolution, by comparison explains the existence of suffering thoroughly,a and it fits all the objective evidence. Faith is pretty meaningless next to this weight of evidence. Especially when that faith is directly at odds with many of the facts.

CaveAdullam:
god huh!

You are not ready for an answer.

But I was prepared for the answer. I am wearing protection. I have a helmet just in case my head explodes, a breastplate in case a priest comes out of the fiery depths of hell and grabs at my family jewels, and even applied some hemorrhoid cream just in case ......

Additional protection was provided when I stuffed some broken glass into my juicy frontal dome and my rectum. If god or some priest gets me, at least they wind up circumcised.

CaveAdullam:
god huh!

You are not ready for an answer.

Based on your faith, is your god responsible for everything? Yes or no.

CaveAdullam:
You do not believe God exists and at the same time you are asking me to prove His duty over the lives of innocent children.

Me I don't understand you o.

You are guilty of the crime called "Faith."

Faith is first believe then work is deployed, this is no blind faith my brother.

Have you proven the existence of your mind like other parts of your body?

The false equivalences are getting tiresome, mister. Based on your faith, is your god responsible for everything? Yes or no.

Daejoyoung:
Again tamaratonye1, this is not the definition of faith. l don't know why you are insisting on this definition. l told you before:
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
You practice faith every time you call things that are not as though they were. When you say l will be successful in life, even when the conditions and factors around shows otherwise, then you are exercising faith. All you have to do then, is to add works to your faith so as to become successful.
So faith is not blind acceptance of anything. You have simply learnt about faith wrongly, sorry to say.

I know what faith is. I don't need your help there.

Faith is not a reliable indicator of truth. Your infantile attempt to redefine the word to suit your purposes shows how flawed and childishly simplistic your argument has appeared, as well as your shortcomings in both reasoning and apparent experience.

Daejoyoung, for what it's worth, I strongly suggest you go back to whatever school you've been attending and get a refund. Your instructors have done you ZERO favors by filling your brain with the laughable nonsense currently spewing from it. Granted, it is mildly amusing and entertaining for me here. I somehow doubt, however, you spent all that money for the purpose of playing "Tickle Me Elmo" with a bunch of strangers on a chat site. Although, on a positive note, you at least have some fairly decent material to start a career as a stand-up comedian. Of course, you would have to polish it up a bit and work on you timing and delivery, but that just comes with practice. Hey, just trying to look out for your best interest.

CaveAdullam:

Now you are saying God is responsible for all the children on earth. In another words you are indirectly proving He exists.

Your statement is built on a dishonest interpretation. I stated ...

"Based on your beliefs, your god is responsible for everything"

I debate my position as if it was based on your religion.

Ask a Muslim, ask a Roman Catholic, ask a protestant, ask anyone of any religion, they all state that their beliefs are based on faith. So many different positions, all defended by faith. Which is the right one? They can't all be correct. That is because their "faith" is not backed up by evidence or anything tangible, just an acceptance anyone can accept.

You can believe anything based on "faith", it is not the pathway to the truth.

Oh, and earlier you said,

CaveAdullam:
On the other side, how can we verify that 1+1=2?

Oh my, what a toughy!

Uh, you might want to take notes... Oh, and CaveAdullam, please feel free to correct any mistakes I may make...

So, we start with the theoretical concept of zero and imagine a singular item within it making that arbitrary nothing into a something because it cannot be nothing if something is in it. (Oh, as a quick side note, try not to get zero confused with infinity.) Anyway, with a singular something somewhat firmly established at this point, we are now able to use the Pythagorean Theorem to determine the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle with two sides that equal the length of that singular something. Then, upon calculating the length of the hypotenuse, we would need to plug that value into the equation for gravitational acceleration as the distance of the fall so we can determine the speed at impact. Now, here's the tricky part. (By the way, if you need me to slow down so you can catch up, just let me know.) Okay, now we have the speed at time of impact. With that speed, we can easily determine how long it would take to pull a head out of an ass, depending on the length of the head in question. Once the head is removed from the ass and all the fecal matter is sufficiently wiped away from the eyes, hold one finger in front of the eyes. Then, after a brief pause, hold another finger next to the first finger in front of the eyes. Then ask the owner of the head to count the number of fingers he sees. If all other calculations were correct, the answer should be, "Two." I'm afraid I can't explain it more simply than that. Fret not, though, because others here are far better at mathematics than I am. No doubt they could make it easier to understand.

Anyways, as I was saying, can you please man up, take ownership of your faith in your god who gives innocent children cancer. Is your god responsible for everything? Yes or no.

Oh Bleep-a-doodle-do... *face palm*... *groan*... Here we go again. The ol' Evolution Denial routine... *heavy sigh*...

More to the point, though, it is not even remotely necessary for me to be highly knowledgeable in that area, because my being an atheist is remarkably independent of anything having to do with evolution or Abiogenisis. I am now an atheist strictly because of what is in the bible and how I was raised in a religious home/community. All the current findings in the realm of evolution, Abiogenisis, bible development, and astrophysics serve only to reinforce my position. However, even if you were somehow able to completely debunk evolution with your very next post, I would STILL BE an atheist. Because your proving evolution to be wrong DOES NOT prove, or even indicate, the existence of your god.

So, what else you got, Sparky?

Abdulgaffar22:
If an event operate by obeying a work of natural laws, then such an event can only happen in one way.

That is the most ridiculous statement I've read this week; but hey it's only Tuesday.

Abdulgaffar22:
Of course, some people may want to argue: if the theory of evolution is not true and we are truly created by someone intelligent, then why do we "sometimes" observe some birth defects and congenital anomalies in the newborn babies ?

Well one can argue, what is the better model.. a bayesian probability approach to evolutionary theory, in which we know 99% and that's currently good enough (but continue to search) or a god of the gaps argument which requires the suspension of all known laws I.e. physics.

Lets say you overturn all of what is known of evolutionary biology, and prove evolution wrong. That does not get you one step closer to demonstrating a god exists. You do understand that atheism existed long before Darwin came up with his theory, right?

Your 'god did it' hypothesis has to be supported with demonstrable, repeatable and falsifiable evidence (and valid and sound logic), on its own merits, whether evolution is correct of not.

So, your entire opening posts are pretty much non-sequiturs.

You arent condeming evolutionary theory because you think its wrong. You exhibit too little understanding of research of recent decades to propose any meaningful critiques. You are simply and ineffectively defending your unverifiable belief in creation mythology.

What viable objective evidence do you have for a supernatural deity? If you believe creation is true, please provide empirical evidence to support your assertion.

Abdulgaffar22:
But if you're not satisfy with this answer and you still insist that evolution is true and creation is false, then invite any evolutionary scientists to answer all the questions cited above (especially question 10 and 11).

NO! Do it yourself!



E/ Kinda looks like a giant copy and paste OP. Or maybe that's just me, but it sure sounds extremely familiar...

Daejoyoung:
But the wright brothers already believed their work could result in something that can fly, and then they took action. What the wright brothers did is what Hebrews 11 as a whole described, it gives you examples of heroes of faith, who believed something and took bold actions that were life changing because they looked forward to and had faith in the coming of a better kingdom or what we can call a new society.
l don't believe you are against faith in itself, tamaratonye1, rather l think you are against religious faith in particular. But religious faith is not all terrible, rather such a faith must also be tested by its fruits.

For man to fly, it was not faith but a desire to fly, like the birds. This desire goes back thousands of years, as recalled by the famous tale of Icarus. But the Wright brothers did not have faith, their efforts was a continuation of the works of others. They did not invent the internal combustion engine, they just took this and modified it for aviation use. They were aware of the works of Otto Lilienthal, who flew crude gliders. But from Lilienthal they learned the lessons of controllability since Lilienthal lost control, stalled, and fell to the earth to die.

Their work was not "faith" but an understanding that all the pieces were there, they systematically tackled each problem solved them, and flew.

"Faith" is just blind acceptance of anything. Am I against "religious faith"? Yes, because it has zero foundation, just blind acceptance that can lead people to do stupid or bad things. Unfortunately, almost all religious faith is tested by doing something so stupid you die. There are people who killed others via suicide bombs or flew aircraft into building because of their faith.

I do not practice "faith". I look both ways before I cross the street, I check my bank balance to make sure all the numbers are correct, and I will never buy anything from a stranger just because they say "have faith".

Tamaratonye1:

You seem to know a lot about the qualities of your god. I have a question, why do some innocent children suffer horribly and die from cancer?

CaveAdullam:

1. Poverty.

2. Insufficient health care facilities.

3. Low number of health care personnel.

4. Low number of trained health personnel.

5. Low health care budget.

6. Accessibility to health care facilities.

7. Illiteracy on the side of the parents.

8. Poor follow up by health personnels especially for out patients.

Wow, you do not know anything about cancer. You could be from the richest family on this planet, with the best health care, yet be struck down by cancer.

Based on your beliefs, your god is responsible for everything, including the conditions the children were born into.. Why is your god so cruel as to make innocent children suffer?

Daejoyoung:

We hold this truth to be self evident, that all humans are created equal

This is quoted by many liberals today. But tell me what data did they rely on to come to this conclusion?

Daejoyoung, with that darling little overtly naive spiel you just submitted, I have faith you will soon be having your own ass neatly filleted, seasoned, packaged, and handed back to you in very short order.

You took that statement from the US Declaration of Independence, which is "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." This has nothing to do with "belief", because it's a statement of intent. Namely, the intent to treat humans alike under the law, regardless of their circumstances. That you failed to understand this elementary concept speaks volumes.

In the 1600's Oliver Cromwell took control of Britain, and waged a ruthless war on the Catholics. Included in this war were many horrors including mass murders of the Irish. That was never forgotten by the Irish (they still fight over Roman Catholic/Protestant issues). The early Irish immigrants to the US carried this history, one where non-protestants were not given full rights as humans.

The framers of the Constitution were very aware of the horrors inflicted by Cromwell (and the many failings of the British ruling system), and that clause was to make sure that no one was treated less than others just because of their religion.

from Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell#Irish_campaign:_1649%E2%80...

Cromwell's hostility to the Irish was religious as well as political. He was passionately opposed to the Catholic Church, which he saw as denying the primacy of the Bible in favour of papal and clerical authority, and which he blamed for suspected tyranny and persecution of Protestants in continental Europe.

Do you know anything.... anything at all... about American history?

Where do you find the largest community of Irish in the US? Boston. Where did the US Revolution begin? Boston, with the Boston Tea Party.

Daejoyoung:
Have you taken a DNA test to prove that your father is actually your father? lf you do not look so much like him for example, then why do you believe he is your father? lt is because you also operate by faith.
Without faith, so many things would be impossible even science.

And another mythology fanboy fails to understand the distinction between faith, which is nothing more than uncritical acceptance of unsupported assertions, and inference from insufficient data. The latter involves reliance upon data, even if the data is incomplete, and therefore has NO relation to "faith".

Oh, and by the way, those of us who had a proper science education, conducted experiments to verify that the postulates we were being taught were something other than the product of someone's rectal passage.

CaveAdullam:
Faith is believing in the truth until the truth reveals itself.

Faith is me traveling with peace airline without first testing the accuracy of the pilot and the engine because I know they have always delivered and customer service is satisfactory.

Faith is me eating my mother's meal after receiving serious scolding from her without any any fear of food poisoning.

Faith is me believing all the stories of cyanophyta, algae, thallophyta, bryophtha taught by Prof. Bacteriologist without first carrying out my own laboratory experiment to prove if he is right or wrong.

Faith is me believing that Williams Shakespeare wrote Macbeth, Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet without actually witnessing it.

REMEMBER FAITH IS BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH UNTIL THE TRUTH REVEALS ITSELF. IF IT DOESN'T THEN IT IS NOT THE TRUTH OR IT IS NOT FAITH.

Faith is what you use when you have no evidence to back your claims.

The fallacy you are using is called, an EQUIVOCATION FALLACY.

Equivocation happens when a word, phrase, or sentence is used deliberately to confuse, deceive, or mislead by sounding like it’s saying one thing but actually saying something else.

Your faith is nothing like the trust we have, based on experience and data.

More bullshit from a theist.

CaveAdullam:
Orville and Wilbur Wright believe their own special metal can fly even when it seems impossible for metals to fly. But When all necessary skills and tools were put into work their metal actually flew.

So you see faith is believing in the qualities of that metal until the metal prove itself.

Oh my, you just stepped into my wheelhouse. The Wright brothers did not use any faith, in fact, they studied their predecessors, they rigorously tested everything about flight before attempting to do so. They built and tested their own engine. The built a wind tunnel to verify the aerodynamics, they built and flew kites, and the entire process was one of checking and verifying everything before moving onto the next step.

CaveAdullam:
That's why God has not sealed our brains and freewill because He wants us to investigate Him not only by faith but also by Logic. And up till now God is correct and with the way things are He will not be found guilty of all His claims and actions.

You seem to know a lot about the qualities of your god. I have a question, why do some innocent children suffer horribly and die from cancer?



E/ FYI, Shakespeare was actually an Italian immigrant called Crollalanza. Shakespeare is just the English translation of that name. Why do you think so many of his plays are set in Italy?

But your example is silly in any case. It's like the tired old canard trotted out by creationists to "prove" that evolution never happened because nobody was there to see it. We can know about the past without faith simply by studying and interpreting the evidence.

Faith is earned. We gain faith in people when they keep their promises, help us in times of need, and never betray our trust. By that criterion, your imaginary friend is completely unworthy of faith. Every prayer has gone unanswered. Good people and innocent children have been abandoned to die of disease and disasters. All the money donated to god's churches goes straight into the pockets of priests and preachers.

Zhirinovsky:
....It doesn't change the fact homosexuality is purely demonic....

It's funny how homophobics like you are quick to throw stones at gays and whatnot, when the Bible you claim to get your morality from is (probably one of) the most immoral books ever written. Then again, I guess we may have to define morality.