₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight:
Well Viaro, you must really be in a bad mood.

As i recall it -

I pointed out a simple and obvious contradiction -

And you responded describing me as "insane," "dense" and now "daft", "silly", "a slowpoke" and "a hypocrite."

I do wonder since when it became a crime to point out contradictions. What's the purpose of debate then?

You do point out what you believe to be contradictions in my theories. I do not recall responding with insults.

Do have a good day.

What an irony. I remember earlier being the same person (among many) who advised the likes of my Christian brethren like Davidylan to play it less on the insolence when discussing with non-Christians. Today. . ?

But the one thing you often miss out in this sort of exchanges between us, Deep Sight, is not so much about my acrid attitude to your posts. Pointing out contradictions is one thing, but labelling the convictions of Christians as 'HORRID'  and all sorts is quite another matter entirely. Of course, many people continue to flag up so-called 'contradictions' in many things that we as Christians believe - and they do not get me riled up one bit. However, you don't only replay these 'contradictions' but go on and on every time to deride Christians with all sorts of qualifiers as ridiculous and irrational. .  to put it mildly. That not even considering the several times a few posters have drawn your attention to such unhealthy attitudes in discussing with other folks.

You can point out what appears to you as 'contradictions' - and yes, we see many contradictions in your Deism as well. To me, it appears that there would be contradictions in ANY worldview anyone holds . . . whatever worldview, bar NONE. Yet people continue to hold on to whatever they believe. The one thing I find really cr[color=Black]az[/color]y about folks pretending to be "open-minded" while lambasting other people's beliefs is that they don't seem to have the stomach to contain the very same things that they use to write off other people.

There is just no way that Deism can come close to resembling Christianity - they are worlds apart. You can hold on to your deism without trying to hammer your drivel on Christians and write them off as holding 'horrid' or irrational worldviews just because your deism is too narrow to contain Christian doctrines, especially the Deity of Christ. Many 'Christians' have made up their minds to deny His Deity, and that's all okay - their world. Denying the Deity of Christ by emphasizing only His Humanity does not make them any bit more intellectual or educated on the subject.

And one more thing: you can do well trying to not tell us what to believe where in fact you don't even believe what you argue - in which case your recourse to Guru Maharaji and/or Olumba Olumba as firstaid for your arguments is risible. Christians do not preach such people as the central figure of their Christianity; so why often drawing that unnecessary illation? I guess it would be great for me to compare your deism to something quite unfamiliar and unpalatable that you really have not heard of, and then come back pretending that all is well, no?

In all, do play it safe and retire this mendacious st[color=Black]upi[/color]dity to deriding Christians over matters you cannot contain within your Deism. And while you're on it, cheers.

bee444:
@Viaro

I do accept criticism as you and I know I'm imperfect in any way. But so much as to your support of @Mavenb0x, I wasn't criticising him but admonishing him to come plain and give us a definite answer to the topic instead of giving endless quotes from the Bible without actually answering the question. That to me was just religion!

If you read my thread, I indulged everyone to be simple and honest. See this as an essay that you either answer yes or no to and back it up with your reasons.

God Bless!

@bee444,

I'm truly humbled by your gentle response. Thank you, and I take correction on some of the areas I might have overlooked. Some may have many verses in support of whatever views they hold on this subject - I am one of them. But I chose to use only one verse (John 5:23) for the meantime, as I understood you would have appreciated concise replies. Apologies again, and many blessings.

Hey Mavenb0x, I apologise if it seems we've unintentionally highjacked your thread. That would be awesome if it rings true. . but it just seems we could not resist progressing the thread. Please feel free - and be encouraged - to make additions, or further posts on the original point you had in mind in raising this thread.

Well Pastor AIO. Good points, especially the connection between 'truth' and 'faith' - and perhaps by extension akin words like verity, etc.

To be honest with you, viaro does not make any claim to understanding 'ultimate truth' in essence. I clearly do not; and two texts that have always been my guiding principle in this are -

[list]](a) Psalm 139:6 - I cannot attain to the knowledge of things that are too high for my finite mind to grasp;
(b) Deuteronomy 29:29 - there are 'secret things' which belong to God, and we only deal with what is revealed and not what is beyond our grasp.[/list]

Be that as it may, truth has many dimensions - so, IMO, it could not just point to the paragon of faithfulness, or steadiness. There, is in some sense, the idea of absoluteness in things with a temporal span - absolute in themselves for the specific issues they address in both their time and perspectives. Think about it, maybe some examples would begin to light up . . and we could share further.


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* I forgot to say those verses (Psalm 139:6 and Deut. 29:29) were my own paraphrases, not direct quotes as they appear in the Bible. Apologies.

Deep Sight:
I will be back to continue, I had planned to finish the whole write-up before my good friend Viaro in another thread accused me of abandoning this discourse, and so I thought I would just post what I had written thus far, and continue later.

Amico mio, take all the time and develop your concepts logically as best you could. I apologise for the rancour in the other thread - a different matter that should stay there. I should exercise some constraints and patience until you lay out the mat for the picnic. Cheers.

Lady 234:
This will surprise you
http://www.askelm.com/tithing/thi003.htm

If your best shot for this topic is from Ernest Martin of askelm.com, you're terribly mistaken. In another thread where we examined Martin's claims, he was thoroughly shown to be lying through his yellow teeth. Most of his apologetics are dubious, peppered with claims that leave gaping holes and credentials that have long been exposed as frauds.

Jewish scholarship today that have nothing to do with Christianity still recognise their obligation to tithe.

Orthodox Judaism still regards tithe obligations as residing in produce grown in the Land of Israel. Contemporary practice is to set aside terumah, separate ma'aser rishon, separate terumat ma'aser, then redeem ma'aser sheni with a coin (on years that do not coincide with ma'aser ani).

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maaser_Ani

Traditional Jewish law and practice has included various forms of tithing since ancient times. Universally, Orthodox Jews practice ma'aser kesafim (tithing 10% of their income to charity) and take challah. In modern Israel, Jews continue to follow the laws of agricultural tithing, e.g., terumah, ma'aser rishon, terumat ma'aser, and ma'aser sheni.

(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe

These are facts that Ernest Martin dubiously hid from his readers and would not have liked anyone to know before claiming that Jews no longer tithe today (see his chapter 3 in that link you gave). Where did he get his 'facts' from? What are the names of the 3 rabbis that he called in the L.A. area, and what synagogues are they attached to? Anyone can claim anything these days about so-and-so rabbis and get away with their silly lies - trust Ernest Martin to use that same tactic. . . and he bought many gullible Christians on the cheap! Should that surprise anyone?

Edit:

Deep Sight:
I forgot to add that it becomes even more inane and laughable when one considers the fact that he supposedly tried to change the script mid-way in Gethsemane by praying to himself to change the plot - a fact that you Viaro - lied that he did not do, which argument was kicked to dust here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-355093.64.html#msg4989271

Please stop lying. I gave my view as to why your 'contradictions' do not amount to contradictions for me. You cheapen intelligence by making recourse to this attitude of forcing words into people's mouth. This is why you never last in a rational discussion before jumping to conclusion with 'you have just conceded defeat' whenever others are trying to point out certain things.

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Deep Sight:
Yep, Guru Maharaji is God - that definitely transcends logic!

Good - go bow down to Guru and suck his a[color=Black]s[/color]s all you want. . then come back and tell us the same GURU is your 'oneness of infinity' god. You just don't have a good grasp about your own certer of gravity and are just floating withersoever the wind takes you.   I feel very sorry for your Deism.

Deep Sight:
UNSURPRISINGLY, YOU DID EVERYTHING - RAIN INSULTS ON MY OWN CREED, CALL IT SHALLOW, IMPUGN MY INTEGRITY - ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING - EXCEPT ADDRESS THE CONTRADICTION I POINTED OUT. WHY ARE YOU SO EMOTIONALLY DEFENSIVE VIARO?

You're daft. St[color=Black]up[/color]id fool. Does that help?

How long has it been that you've been berating Christians on this issue of the Deity of Christ? Disagreeing is one thing; but being adept at your gross stu[color=Black]pi[/color]dity is another thing entirely! You ask me why I'm so emotional . .  and you have the nerve of a schmuck to type in all CAPITALS? We have done this deal about contradictions before; and I posted you a subscript from the same John 5 that you had quoted (yours being v. 19, mine being verse 23) - so what is this baloney of I absolutely did not address anything in yours?

True, my aim was not to address anything (IF that is what you wanted to read). One thing I wanted to call your attention to was your damn hypocricy that you plaster everytime this subject comes up. You're a DEIST - enjoy your world, ever so evasive as can be; but don't use your own irreconcilable non-starters to write off Christians as engaging in 'HORRID' whatever and pretend you're being nice. That just has to be retired.

That contradiction was simple; she stated that Jesus was following a script written by a script-writer - And yet insists that he himself is the Script Writer. Can you wrap your head around that Viaro? I didn't think so.

Yes I could. Quite a few times when I read mavenbox on the Deity of Christ and the Trinity, she has tried to present her own views - just hers. I deliberately tried to stay out of such threads because I see things differently even though I should make clear that I am a confessed Trinitarian. I believe in the Deity of Christ, that His Deity is not something magically brought about by the NT writers but has long been prophesied in MANY nuances by the OT prophets. Even now, I don't have all the answers, but that does not mean therefore that I should go around trying to damn every Christian who holds a different view. What sense does that make where you just like to do so, Deep Sight?

You don't need to be so defensive simply becasue the fact that you worship a fellow human being as God is exposed/ Tell me how that is better than worshipping Guru Maharaji?

I was not trying to be defensive. Read my post again. I guess it was damn too acrid that you skipped hastily through and did not get the gist! I only posted the John 5:23 verse as a postcript to let you know why in worship Jesus from His very own mouth made clear that EQUAL honour be paid Him as men do to the Father. If Guru Maharaji wants to make the same claim, tough luck for him - I'm not one of his followers and will not be, unless he wants to show precisely a fulfillment of Christ's warning that many shall come as 'Christs' with all sorts of claims to take the place of the Son of God. If you want to worship Guru (any of such 'gurus'), good luck all the same. . . . probably you're still searching for your lost O.O.I. god and can't make sense of what others believe for your own displaced fantacies.

P.S - THE ONENESS OF INFINITY IS NOT A SUBJECT THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED IN THE OFF-HAND MANNER THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO DISCUSS YOUR PAGAN TRINITARIAN MYTH.

You don't need to be defensive or even shout in CAPITALS. The 'oneness of infinity' is daft, evasive and a non-starter that even YOU don't understand or make sense of for your own religion. Just relax. .  the day will come when I will thorough waste that stupid drama of yours and send you back typing in small fonts.

Be that as it may i have written the prose during the week and will post it soon.

I look forward to it, and to whatever Mathematics you have been murdering with cosmetic apologetics.

[quote author=the_seeker link=topic=381774.msg5328282#msg5328282 date=1263649361]The creed of islam is free from ambiguity and is a true testimony of the unity of God.[/quote]I don't think you get it. I was not out looking for any creeds of Islam - I know far too many to even begin to bother, and as many creeds in Islam exist to divide Muslims even over the very nature of the allah of Islam. Perhaps you never carefully thought through your own answer before clicking on the 'reply' botton; and one thing that might help you is to carefully weigh the meaning of the term 'nature' before seeking to use it to query anyone else.

We muslims bother and disagree about a lot of things but not about the nature of God. We unanimously agree that he is one and none is comparable to him in any sense whatsoever. Enemies of islam can call him anything from moon god to stone but we stand true to his real nature with one undissenting voice.

What is allah's 'real nature'? You are still very, very far from grasping the meaning of 'nature', let alone talk about the 'real nature' of anything. Being 'one' does not tell you anything about allah's nature - you're only arguing a creed, not a nature of anything about allah. There are many things that could be said to be 'one' and yet not much could be said about their real nature. Besides, not all Muslims in every shade of Islam agrees about your resolute idea about the creed of allah (tawhid - it is merely a doctrine, and it does not explain anything about nature).

On the other hand you christians are still confused about the nature of your God. You are not even sure who is God or not.

Thank you. It is only id[color=Black]io[/color]ts who talk the way you do. You have not addressed anything about your nature of allah, and passing off a creed instead of the 'nature' does not do your job for you before you begin to accuse Christians of being confused. Are you that dense? Twerp. Please go back to school and get a real education, not that silly thing they gave you in one madrassa where you don't even know what the meaning of nature actually is.

Afterall a muslim did not start this thread and many of the comments by fellow christians show thay do not accept jesus as God. Why is that?

Of course, Christians disagree on many things - even as you have admitted that Muslims disagree on many things (second quote above) - so why does it surprise you that Christians also disagree? There's hardly ANY worldview where adherents agree on EVERYTHING - you search and you will come back to affirm same. If Christians disagree on the Deity of Christ, why does that constitute grounds for your id[color=Black]io[/color]cy to start deriding them? You just have not been to Muslim forums outside Nairaland where Muslims disgaree to the point of blue murder on the most basic of their own tenets - that is prolly why you sit back like a twerp talking bunk. Besides, when you visit some of those forums, you will be amazed that it is Muslims disagreeing with Muslims about those things, with no contributing fuel from non-Muslims. Just because some Christians are disagreeing on this matter has suddenly become your most happy moment, no?

Did these christians get their concept of the unity of God from the Quran? No! They got this idea from the same bible that you read. The only differnce is that they have clear unquivocal verses to back their point while you and the likes of maven and nuclearboy have to resort to story telling and conjuring baseless analogies to prove a dogma that makes non logical sense.

I don't think you can read. Where did I get John 5:23 from, you consumate daft? I'm not given to story-telling in discussions on the Deity of Christ. What brought me here is this retard attitude from some of you who think that you have the birthright to tell others what to believe about their own faiths when you do not even make any move to subscribing to that same religion. If Christians do not hold Islamic view, they are 'confused' or 'horridly illogical' - that has gone on unchecked on Nairaland for far too long that it beggars intelligence to see how you buffoons just go on and on and yet have not the slightest clue what you want to talk about in your own worldviews. You, for instance, just don't have a clue about the nature of allah in Islam, and you think that plucking off a creed of tawhid would do the job for you? If you chose to address the issue without derisive remarks, you won't read me in this tough stance. Dummkopf.

When all logic has failed, you guys resort to claiming that it takes the holyspirit to understand the mysteries involved. It is just unfortunate that the holy spirit does not post post on NL.

True, and that is not a claim that was derived from thin air. The Bible says clearly that understanding God's counsels comes through the action of the Holy Spirit: "Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you" (Prov. 1:23). So what is the problem in that?

Besides, the Christian faith transcends logic - it is not constrained within the limits of logic. Ironically, many of your types who talk about 'logic' haven't the slightest clue what that word means, or what type of logic you even want to begin to apply in your drivel.

Another thing is that Muslims also make the same claims repeatedly that non-Muslims would never understand anything outside what allah deems fit to convey to anyone. We often have read from your comrades such quotes as allah guides whom he will (Q. 22:16) rather than guide everyone. The whole point in your Islam is that the mullahs believe (on the authority of the authentic hadiths) that even if someone is actually right, they are still wrong - regardless how right they may be! Is that 'logical' to you?

Unfortunately, allah does not post on Nairaland, nor anywhere else. The best places he prolly knows how to post his non-translatable quranic verses are on materials that goats can devour under Aisha's bed. Lunkhead.

muhsin:
I really like this input.

I really know why.

^^The above is beautiful. However, though they were sourced from various places (which I had seen sometime much earlier), there seem to be a few problems with some of them. An example:

(Pistis, fides). In the Old Testament, the Hebrew means essentially steadfastness, cf. Exodus 17:12, where it is used to describe the strengthening of Moses' hands; hence it comes to mean faithfulness, whether of God towards man (Deuteronomy 32:4) or of man towards God (Psalm 118:30).

Indeed. But "pistis" being rather Greek and not Hebrew, you also provided another source to balance out on the Hebrew equivalents: 'ĕmûnâh (אמנה / אמוּנה). In this regard would Exodus 17:12 be understood - '. . . and his hands were steady ('ĕmûnâh) until the going down of the sun'.

However, I think that readers should be aware that the source with reference of Psalm 118:30 is the Catholic Bibles; seeing that our English Bibles have only 29 verses in Psalm 118. Rather, both are reconciled in checking up Psalm 119:30 in our English Bibles and then Psalm 118:30 in Catholic Bibles.

[list]Douay Rheims (Catholic Bible) - Psalm 118:30
³⁰I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments I have not forgotten.

King James Bible (KJV) - Psalm 119:30
³⁰I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.[/list]

'Truth' is those verses is the translated word of the Hebrew 'ĕmûnâh (אמנה / אמוּנה).

[quote author=the_seeker link=topic=381774.msg5327178#msg5327178 date=1263631773]The very core of any religion is the understanding of the nature of God. If we cannot undertand his nature it becomes totally impossible to worship him[/quote]Do you, my dear sir, understand the nature of allah in Islam? And just because you don't, should we then take it that your worship of allah is "totally impossible"? I think you're wetting a softer ground for digging a pit where you might fall into yourself.

Deep Sight:

As John 5:19 clearly states, JESUS WAS FOLLOWING A SCRIPT! The only thing he can do is what the script-writer had determined or allowed him to do.

Why do you persist in this UNSPEAKABLY HORRID contradiction? ? ? He is following a script written by A SCRIPT WRITTER AND YET YOU INSIST THAT HE IS GOD? ? ?

IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU ARE JUST DETERMINED TO SWALLOW THIS FOREIGN MYTH AT THE COST OF YOUR OWN LOGICALITY.

Why do you prefer your insanity to the discussions of other people? I am beginning to think you're one gross hypocrite that I regretably wasted my time trying to defend with reason. Deism is NOT Christianity, and you don't have to try to deride what you don't subscribe to in the Christian faith just so you could pamper your very evasive deistic worldview.

I think it's about time you, Deep Sight, retire this attitude of resorting to such insane outbursts whenever the Deity of Jesus Christ is being discussed. For long I'd waited to see what you make of your nameless, fictional 'singularity' (aka 'oneness of infinity') god - but it always comes to a deadend. ALWAYS. It never makes any sense to anyone, and your finest intellect could not even begin to scratch the surface at defining that 'god' for you.

This is why you leave your 'oneness of infinity' god as a perennially unfinished product - a linear tarradiddle you introduced to Nairaland that has grown into an 'apeiron borborygmus' without a cure. YET, I don't remember many people lashing out every single time you make recourse to your spurious nomenclatures of the deistic 'O.O.I' ([b]o[/b]neness [b]o[/b]f [b]i[/b]nfinity) god. You may have tried everything from philosophy to maths (the Mathematics which Deists always murder on this forum), and yet your O.O.I. stands furtively defenseless. All we have left is a benign smile of amazement at how very dense Deists could be even at the elementary maths they use in trying to "prove" their 'oneness of infinity' god.

Deep Sight, even where you may not agree with Christians on the Deity of Christ, please have the decency to retain some sanity and let others be. This attitude of yours where you think others are horridly illogical for not squaring with your mendacious stu[color=Black]pi[/color]dity is best left to the craft of smaller minds. . . unless you would like to confirm that yours is helplessly narrower.

One of these days, viaro would like to examine this shallow deistic religion of yours and thoroughly waste it for all the emptiness it's worth. Cry me a river then, if you may. Gather all your best shots and we may feel very sorry for you after I'm done examining your amazing aboulia.
___________________

And oh, lest I forget, a few verses down the John 5:19 you quoted, viaro believes that Jesus Himself identified on EQUALITY with the Father in worship when He stated this in John 5:23 - "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." He did not ask for a lesser degree of that divine honour - but categorically said that the very same honour that men render to the Father is the same that should be rendered to Him the Son. That, for me, is where all arguments cease and all talk against the Deity of Christ is hopelessly unwarranted - whether or not you are yet horridly biting your nails.

bee444:
@Mavenb0x

Pls this thread is not a one man show! You've started cumbering your posts with on this thread. I indulge you to convince people and not to force your conviction on them.

I'm not standing as a PRO for Mavenbox, but your reactive statement there is quite misplaced and was unnecessary. The OP seems to invite posters to "support your answers not only with Biblical references but also with educational evidence (s)" - and that, right after quipping that "Our age rightly demands open-mindedness and intellectual honesty in any investigation" - and yet you complain after someone was trying to follow that convention? How come you were reacting like you were afraid to be open-minded and intellectually honest enough to see the Biblical references in her persuasion?

Would that you had plainly said you were looking for narrow-minded answers that are quite 'politically correct' and leaning towards what you already had made up your mind to believe.

^^Another beautiful way of looking at it. I was also thinking of the necessity of faith to make choices between tough alternatives - to choose between what is 'easier' (though not sinful) and what is 'weightier' (though far more glorious). Such weightier choices are made at very high costs to the believer, but these have set their eyes at 'the end of their faith' so to speak (Heb. 11:13-16).

I like illustration #5, because it seems that's where the problem starts for many believers. After being saved, they become dramatically aware of the 'flesh' but don't seem to understand its seriousness or how to deal with it in practical terms.

Keep up the good work. . more posts to grow the thread. The subject itself (faith) is an interesting one that believers should benefit from, even as Jude 20 admonishes us to be building up ourselves on our most holy faith.

Are there not numerous threads already asking and adressing that very question? It might be better that you do what your heart tells you rather than seek to further an argument that you may not finish. According to your faith, be it unto you.

@Mavenbox,

A great thread, and kudos. Let me add a few things to help balance your posts.

Mavenb0x:
There is only one definition of faith (since Eph 4:5 and 2 Cor 4:13 affirm there is only one faith).

Perhaps there's not 'only one', but several definitions of faith. While there's only one Faith (ie., 'the Christian faith' as distinct from other worldviews like the Jewish faith, Muslim faith, the Bahai faith, etc), yet there are various definitions and distinctions of the word 'faith' in the Bible.

Ephesians 4:5 makes an objective case that there are no 'two Christianities' but only one Christian faith in the Lord. It is in this sense that Jude 3 speaks of 'the faith' which was once delivered unto the saints, and which we should earnestly contend for. Acts 13:8 says that Elymas the sorcerer was seeking to turn a deputy away from "the Faith", and the sense is the same - the 'Christian Faith'. In this regard, Rom. 1:5 seeks our 'obedience to the faith' among all nations, because it is a set of distinct principles identifying us as Christians rather than as anything else.

In a subjective sense, one could have faith to be healed (Acts 14.9), or to be made whole (Luke 8:48), or yet to do certain extraordinary things (Heb. 11:33-34). This subjective meaning of faith is multifaceted and is used more often in cases where people possess that operative element in them to bring about those results.

In yet a third meaning, it could have reference to a standing with God. Romans 4:5 & 9 tell us that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness . . . 'faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness'. The climax of this is found in verse 18 in a situation where even against hope one can believe in hope. It is not so much a matter of producing certain miraculous results, but rather of identifying with what God has spoken in His dispensation concerning a person or group of people.

In a fourth sense, faith is defined as one of the charismata of the Spirit - 1 Cor. 12:9. This 'faith' is not what is given to everyone as a gift of the Spirit, just as not everyone is given the gift of healing. This particular 'faith' as a gift or charismata of the Spirit points to ministry in the Body of Christ where the assembly of believers is in view.

Of course, there are several other definitions of 'faith' in the Bible. While Hebrews 11:1 gives only one definition, it should not necessarily be the only one that the Bible speaks about. Ephesians 4:5 says there is one faith; but that is not to say that there is only one definition of that word either. Besides "elpis" (Heb. 10:23 - 'hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering') and "pistis" (Matt. 21:21 - 'If ye have faith, and doubt not') as principal examples, there are other meanings of 'faith' that might be helpful to consider in your treatise.

Just my observations. Blessings.

^^ I should have thought a bit more. . carbonated drinks do wonders to one's brains, you know?

Why are you thanking me, you tool? I simpy said that while you are saying that Islam is idol worshipping, Judaism and their surrogate children who were once idol worshippers even as they had discovered God, you are not even saying that they are idol worshippers, today, though you have abandoned Ark and tabernacle which were signs of God at that time, and golden calf which was sign of idolatry at that time, yet you now worship the cross as a christian, why is it that the Jews and Christians of today not associated with golden calf of yesteryears? you are so naive, viaro to be arguing blindly, darn cross worshipper.

I thank you yet again for that lie, old man. Christians don't worship the Cross - go figure what it means in Christianity. Yes, some within Christendom hold it to the point of almost worshipping it, but you will not find anywhere in the Bible, the Torah or the Quran where we are asked to worship the Cross. So, for you to be trying to force that non-starter is confirming once again that al-taquiyya is at work in your apologetics, sir.

Besides, the vid in the OP was not about all the above, but rather about the "similarity" and claim by that slob that Jewish scholarship recognized a religion categorically called 'Islam' in Jewish SCRIPTURE! Where is that verse and all the terms he called them in the first 2 minutes of that vid? Of course, you won't point them out, but your attempts to obfuscate issues here is quite in keeping with your al-taquiyya.

Muslims did not namke allah, the 360 idols, the 3 daughters, etc. these were the people of makka and arabia before Islam of Muhammad! You are so busted.

'Busted' - was that a word that just came into your vocab? The 3 daughters of allah were not made by me - they flew out of Muhammad's mouth, so what piffle are you arguing here?

Same way God showed His displeasure on the arabs as Islam of Muhammad picked them apart, one after the other!

And that is what he said in that vid? C'mon m-a-n. . are you so desperate?

Surah Kafirin is 109. Todays Judaism is paganic. Same way Christianity is not Judaism, hence double paganic.

That Jew made no difference between 'today's Judaism' and 'Islam' - he did not qualify or distinguish them. You only make these excuses prolly because you hope that no one else would have listened to the vid. He flat out made very naive claims and pointed them to the Jewish Scriptures - that is what I would like for you guys to sort out. It does not seem that you're getting nearer the point, but are just making noise filling pages. This won't work, I'm afraid.

The topic is that the Jewish Rabbi with his long beard says Islam is long time before Judaism and Christianity and you are having a feat! Thats your problem; and I have said the same thing long time before you were born.

Yes, that's the topic, but it is merely a claim that is as good as a na[color=Black]ke[/color]d LIE. That is what I am seriously challenging - naive Muslims who want to back up that slob of a Jew should please show the verses from whatever "Jewish scriptures" you find the word "ISLAM". That man was lying through his yellow teeth, Harun Yahya was bought wholesale, naive Muslims who did not even hear one clear word of what that slob mumbled are reposting that vid here and making salt and pepper claims on it. . and you, dear sir, are at war with yourself posting long excuses and yet not being able to show a dot of what was in that vid. Do I call the meds or the feds for you?


However, you're straying from the topic - and it was expected. Know why? Because that sellout Jew has become so embarrassing to you Muslims that is why you never again want to face up to what he has claimed. Please face what is in that vid and let's see what remains of your al-taquiyaa. Muslims are permitted to lie when faced with simple situations that expose their gullibility - so lie all you want. . in Islam, it's default.

olabowale:
@Viaro: « #34 on: Today at 04:56:23 PM » Viaro; use your arbel man. Am an old man, and if I can hear the man, then a younger man like you should be able to hear him, or was it the Jewish/Yiddish accent that trips you?

This old man, thank you for replying. As usual, the Islamic evasion is blamed on 'old age' and nothing was forthcoming from you. The point is that Muslims are usually naive folks - they don't even know what is said before they begin to applaud it in support of Islam. That was what Harun Yahya wanted. . and that was why that Jew sold him so cheaply.

Alhamdulillah, he didnt think Christianity is a religion worthy of mentioning.

Of course not - he couldn't mention Christianity among his list of lies because he knows that Christian scholars would waste him from all quarters.

The Jewish God declare "I am your God, Alone" The Jews say that they are the people of God, while others are not. You even they Christians say that the Jews are exclusively the people of God, and others are not. You only become people of God based on your Jewish human Jesus god! How would a nigerian man be child of Jewish or Christian God, except under the jewish concept of sonship, a carry over on Jesus!

First, that wild statement there is one of the lies that you have recircled long and far on Nairaland, but the Jews hold on so fastiduously to that claim. Orthodox Jews believe that Gentiles who are not under Judaism would still have a place among God's people by following the seven laws of Noah. Ask any Jew who is well informed and not slobs like in the vid in the OP. The only difference is that non-Jews are not counted among the Jewish covenant for certain reasons - especially having to do with the sacred feasts, criteria for priesthood and prerequisites for kingship. This your retired excuse up there is a bit too old for your age, so please find something else to save face with.

If the slob is purchased by Harun Yahya, then what happened to the Jews who lambast Islam in the front of Wealthy american christian right crowd?

Please go ahead and tell me. It is good you noted that Jews also lambast Islam - in front of wealthy Christians is not relevant. I have often asked that the slob up there in the OP's vid should be found sitting before a small panel of JEWISH scholars, not wealthy American Christians. . and the result may just surprise you! Of course, you will not find such slobs even attempt that, but they can sell Harun Yahya for cheap - and he was bought wholesale and resold!

You are so naive. Am sure somebody may call your father, dad. does that mean he is the father of the child he does not sire; the same condition with your adamancy of saying Allah has a child! You think he is yahweh with jesus as son? LOL!

What has my father or dad got to do with this thread? Why resort to that evasive tactic, old man? I could careless how many sons you have sired (after the example of Muhammad with 30 or so wives - besides the "bo[color=Black]ot[/color]ies" he was flogging left right and center). . . but please sray focused on the OP!

For sure you cant call them christians or Jews. I can call them Muslims, because Muslims are also called Hanifan, Muminu, Salihin, Muflihuun, Mutafiqat, Subirin, and many other names.

Sorry, old man, the slob of a Jew in that vid did not mention ANY of those excuses you posted there as names. Please listen to the vid carefully and stop trying to lie on top of everything - such duplicity does not add anything to your grey hair. Please post me a summary transcript and let's help you and those naive Muslims in that vid.

You already substiyute that with the golden cross on the neck, etc!

Oh c'mon - even Muhammad did not make such substitutes. Only desperate and daft Muslims make such connections and end up lying to make Islam look better (permissible - afterall, al-taquiyya rules in Islam).

no one bows to tone in Makka, or the whole of Ka'aba. Its Allah and regardless of how much you right it as "allah" the truth is not chnaging! Like the yoruba song goes; Ao de bi ti a maa de, o baa taa kiti ko fori Konle, a o de bi ti a maa de

I could excuse your embarrassment here, sir. But still, it does not change the facts. Not only do you bow down to the black stone, from Muhammad's example, Muslims also have kissed that stone. Lie about that one again. Just go over this link (http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Black_Stone) and see for yourself.

Before the tabernacle of the lord and or the ark of covenant, there was the true religion of Adam. There was the true religion of Enoch. There was the true religion of Noah. There was the true religion of Abraham. There was the true religion of Isaac, of Jacob, of Joseph, etc etc long before that of Moses and the ark, unless you wanna say that these people before the ark were disbelievers?!

And what similarities does Islam have with the Ark or Jewish covenants? See why I noted that the Jew in that vid was lying through his yellow teeth? And all you folks were buying into it so gullibly it makes me reel in laughter! If you had any clue of what he said in the first 2 minutes of that vid, your old age would receive wisdom to not argue vacantly on what you have no clues about.

The same Moses time people worshipped golden calf which all the later generations of the Children of israel, now jews and even their fake people the christians came out of . Are these people golden calf worshippers, you darn cross worshipper? Answer me, man and stop waffling!

I already answered you - Christians are not to be confused for the golden CALF; not even Muhammad made that confusion, and if that is not an answer, please show me where Muhammad was yapping that the golden calf = the Cross, you son of a black-stone, East-facing, moon-god, arabic-kabba religious apologist! This is why that slob will sell you cheap and still have change for lollipops!

Dude, your enquiry seems funny. At masters level, it shouldn't be difficult to figure out, would it? Here's my take:

Programming language is not all that defines either of MIS (Management Information System) or Information System Engineering. Perhaps the emphasis of each one (as well their career potentials and prospects) would help you decide for yourself.

olabowale:
@jcross22: « #5 on: January 12, 2010, 03:33 PM » listen to the video, again; they are all in there.

If you don't mind, please post the scriptures yourself - just do it and stop being evasive. Thank you in advance.

Paganism, is different from Islam. Just like Christianity, the new modern paganism is different from semi Paganism of Judaism, all different from true belief;

Hehehe. . this is what cheats often do! They never stick to a topic of a thread but seek deviations that serve no purpose! Did the sellout Jew in that vid in the OP ever mention any thing about Christianity? What was his purpose - to talk about Christianity? Have you run out of erudition that the only way out of this quagmire for you is to deliberately deviate this thread by turning it to a discussion of Christianity? Please stop being such a cheat - it does not help; and we shall not forget the main topic of this thread arising from the OP. Deviations serve no purpose here, sorry.

Islam! No where in the Quran or Hadith Allah the Almighty is mentioned as a tribal or paganic or moon (God!)

Does not say that either for the God of the Jews - and the sellout Jew in that vid does not make such a conjecture either.

and or Islam takes any daughter, or son, or child/children, male or female for Allah the Sole Indipendent Complete Lord!

We know the history behind allah's three daughters. Please don't make us laugh. . or we shall have to remind you that NONE of the Biblical prophets ever claimed to have spoken by Satan, unlike Muhammad who was flirting with Satan from start to finish. You're a desperate man, I can understand that; but your desperation cannot be alleviated by poking your fingers at others when you should be worried about your Islam and the lying slob of that sellout Jew who bought Harun Yahya so cheaply. Any Jew with half a brain who watched that vid would be literally rolling on the floor with laughter!

The Children of Israel, by all accounts did not have a specific religion, or a mode of worship except that they were under slavery bondage and not a group of disbelievers and tyrannicals like the Egyptians.

Guess what? The children of Noah did not have a specific religion either - so where did that lying slob get his facts from?

Now after sometime, crossing safely the sea, they took up "paganism" by worshipping golden calf. The same people, having the same determination, etc later became the flagbearer of One God belief, under Moses, and many many prophets (AS); David, Solomon, and even Jesus the last of them in that lineage! Shall we take it, still that the Children of Israel, as in Judaism and their offsprings; Christianity are both Pagans, still of the golden calf, since we dont see them worshipping it any more.

Nope, you don't find Christians making a golden calf to bow down to it as did the Israelites in the wilderness. I don't know, but what is the origin of the black stone that Muslims bow down to in the religion? Why do you guys bow down to a stone where some muslims claim that Islam enjoins Muslims to bow down to nothing except allah?

Or do to we see them sticking with the Original Tabernacle of God, and there is no carrying of the ark of the covenant; are they still in the religion of Moses? Absolutely not.

That's another concrete point for the sellout Jew and Harun Yahya - there was no Muslim EVER who was associated with the Tabernacle or Jewish Covenant or the Ark of the covenant! NONE!! So, from where did that slob get his desperate pantomimes to claim "similarities" between Judaism and Islam? Ah, I see. . you're unwittingly divulging the facts that shame that sellout Jew even before I ask. Thank you.

You see, if we cant say that the jews and the Christians are worshippers of the golden calf, we cant say that the Muslims are worshippers of what the preislamic pagans of Makka worshipped.

Nope. Again, Christians are not the ones who made a golden calf; and God showed His displeasure on such when they engaged in that act. And this is one more confirmation that the Jew in that vid was LYING to muslims, especially that toothpick (Harun Yahya). There was no "connection" between Judaism and Islam - and the Quran makes that so clear in Sura 109!

We see that Muslims stick with what Muhammad (AS) brought, while neither the Jews nor the Christians stick from Moses, or even jesus for Christians who took paul instead!

Thank you again for confirming that Islam is not an ancient religion but was actually what Muhammad brought. This should wrap it up for naive Muslims like javalove and Harun Yahya.

Then it is safe to say that all Jews and Christians can be referred back to the god their earlier people; the exodus generation worshipped; the golden calf, before they have a full directive under Moses to worship the One God! As I read the Bible, I remember that the people wanted a diety to worship, just like the people of Egypt; so they asked that a god is made for them! Please tell me now that you do not worship golden calf, but golden cross that you worship, can i say that you are devoted to golden calf, but turn it to golden cross, instead?

Are you so dumb? Did Muhammad ever anywhere make a connection between the calf and the Cross? If Muhammad was not that naive, what piffle are you sweating to make out here? Look, please just stop being so desperate. . unless the best thing out of your religion is the same al-taquiyya lying!

But islam does not allow even association with Allah/God/Chineke/Alaaye! God in Islam does not have a beginning, an end, no parents, no children, no partners and completely surfficient, Alone.

Allah had three daughters - Muslim revisionists changed the story later in Islamic history when they realised the implication for their religion. Many variations of this have been told; but the most tantalising is that Muhammad tried to wave it all off as if he had spoken by satan operating his tongue! When will you muslims stop making all these excuses and stay focused?



Now, shall we wait much longer for you to come back to the topic of this thread? Be our guest.

[quote author=the_seeker link=topic=373466.msg5313501#msg5313501 date=1263468079]German scholars did extensive study of quranic manuscripts and have found no discrepancies. This is a very simple issue, the end justifies the means.[/quote](1) Please could you be so kind to tell us who the German scholars were?
(2) Also, what quranic manuscripts of 'extensive study' were you referring to?
(3) Are you sure that all scholars of repute are unanimous that 'no discrepancies' are found?

Just those 3 questions for now - a 'very simple issue', as you say.

ancel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Thank you, ancel. Short, direct, and packed.

---

nuclearboy:
@Viaro:

A few corrections:

Commander nuclearboy, see why I trust your erudition? I often have this trepidation that when you peruse my posts or ripostes, there's bound to be some corrections here and there! Bro, you made me laugh so hard. . . yet, so true. Cheers.

Hallo olabowale,

olabowale:
@viaro: « #4 on: January 12, 2010, 01:24 PM » did the video just happened up on youtube today, not enough time for a "learned Jew" to rebut him? Of course not. Like everything else, some people will deny the obvious. So even though they agree with the reality, like the Jewish scholar you are criticising, they will not change from what they believe in, to what they confirm to be superior, the new confirmation from their lips (islam; these types of Jewish Scholars are hypocrites, knowing the truth, but refused to follow.

Actually, the vid did not just happen on Youtube recently; and apart from the one here in this thread, I have watched several of the same thing with longer play minutes. It is not a matter of 'reality', and there's nothing worth wasting time upon in that vid.

I am waiting for Jewish scholars to disproof the Jewish man with proven evidence(s) from Torah, etc while the same portions of the books will not disproof Christianity!

First off, he was not in that vid to argue Christianity - please get that into your thick recesses. He was sitting face to face with that toothpick (Harun Yahya) who was very happy to be bought cheaply.

Second, that Jew claimed to be a 'historian', and I asked javalove for credentials of his 'Rav'. You know why? Because, Jewish titles of scholarship are not bantered just anyhow - and the moment any Jew is laying claim to any serious point like this, you will definitely get responses from Jewish scholars who will examine his credentials and retire him from his post/title before he goes ahead misleading orthodox Jews on his misplaced arguments. That was why I asked javalove for credentials - and up until now none of you have even dared to point anything out in that direction.

Third, did you even take time to check on what he said in the first 2 minutes of that vid? Can you even spell out the names of what he said about the ancient religions? I know what I'm talking about - so if you want a no-nonsense rebuttal to that slob in that vid, try me. . . you don't need any Jewish scholar to "disprove" anything. The point is that when other sellout Jews are busy lying to naive Muslims, authentic Jewish scholars do not bother themselves with such misdemeanours.

Please give me just the first spelling of the name that the sellout Jew there gave, and then viaro will post something up for you to yap about. Until then, please don't make noise and waste more pages in this thread.

Remember the Jews did not recognise the Messiahship of Jesus. They dont even consider him as a prophet, and it was his mere saying that am connected to God, the same way Moses had been connected that landed him in hot soup of "false death!" dont forget that all the children of israel believed that they were God's Children, or even gods themselves, since the phrase "arent you gods?" proofs it to be a common understanding of that position.

There are numerous Jews today who believe in the Messiahship of Jesus. Muslims who make the sort of excuse you make do not even know what the term MESSIAH actually means, so please stop making noise about what you have no clues on. Your best shot here is to turn the point in all this to an argument between Islam and Christianity and end up deviating the thread - another confirmed tactics of the al-taquiyya of Muslims. Stay focused - that Jew in that vid was lying through his yellow teeth, and Harun Yahya was bought and sold and resold cheaply in front of the rolling cameras.

I hope that you will not get carried away that your mere statement of challenge to the Rabbi, who has not turned to Islam, is an indictment on him, the Israeli Jews have not said anything against him! We will be waiting for their proofs against Islam, according to the proofs for Islam by the Jewish Scholar.

I'm not carried away - and that's why I stand up to plainly state he was a sellout Jew. End of story. Muslims who cackle over that Jew's claims are bought and sold cheaply - and if you want to defend that particular Jew, please provide me some credentials and let's deal with his statements in the first 2 minutes. I am asking you to provide me a summary transcript if you dare! Where you fail to do so, you will be no better than mr java with a ridiculous cackle. Dare viaro. . .you just might surprise yourself sir.

Abu Zola:
@jcross, anything outside Quran and hadith is a fraud, tell that shiite professor to give a referrence to Quran or hadith, if he can't let him go to hell

I will try and remember that. There is plenty in the hadith that Muslims may not be willing to take as genuine, though.

Just wanted to say Happy New Year, davidylan.

You are still sounding like the very amusing piece of java you are, indeed!

javalove:
LMAO!!! I cudnt stop laffing after i read your post. So you think a muslim will disrespect his beards and pose as a jew ?

Did I say so? Or, are you so desperate you are misreading someone else's post and mistaking it for what you did not see in mine?

But now that you say so, I would like to remind you that indeed Muslims have posed as Jews for more sinister plots than this misfooted adventure you're posting here. One example with two sources of this sinister drama by Muslims posing as Jews:
(a) the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) operatives - (muslim terrorism)
(b) Posing Jewish, US Muslim Helped Set Up the Mumbai Muslim Attacks
So, what piffle are you desperate to display here, mr java?

Who does he want to decieve. . .?

He was out to deceive simpletons like you - afterall, you were the very same "java" who posted that vid here in this thread and was all aglow to cackle like it was the best thing since your Islamic sliced bread. Moreso, he was a sellout for fellows like Harun Yahya - and the latter was bought and sold. . penny's worth!

When we muslims know that its not what we preach that turns people to islam but Allah?

Aye. . we know that it's not what you preach that turns people to Islam. . we know that already. Rather, it is the sellouts that you post that do that job for thee!

See, we muslims dont go out of or ways to bring people to islam. we dont lie, we dont decieve, we dont make fake online videos like xtians do.

Oh c'mon. . are you kidding me? Look, I'm not a muslim, never was - but I have this muslim friend of mine who gives me the load. From him I veritably learnt that Muslims LIE, CHEAT, DECEIVE, and do anything FAKE to gain a face. He was not ashamed of the fact - and asked me to check up the concept of Al taqiyya’. Boy, was I blown away!

So yes, you do all of those things - and trying to hide the fact is one more confirmation that you are well-known for that same deception. If you didn't know, that would be one more LIE - so stop it before you ruin your Islamic CV.

That guy is a JEW!!!! He is a Rabbi!!!

Excuse me? I did not argue that he was not a Jew. Rather, I made plain that he was the sort of Jew who is a sellout (see post #20).

But if you want to scream yet again, please tell me what or whose 'Rav' he is - I would very much like credentials. If you cannot provide any, I very well would take you for the amusing piece of java that you are! When you can provide authentication of his 'Rav' credentials, then viaro will show you the sort of slob 'historian' that piece of a sellout was!

Jews know the truth. . .but only a few of them will say it.

Yes, that's why the vid posted by OLAADEGBU is one such Jew who is bold to be politically INcorrect to say the truth plain and plain about the Islam you don't know.

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) said in a hadith that IF TEN JEWISH RABBIS ACCEPT ISLAM, THE REMAINING WILL FOLLOW SUIT. . .The truth is glaring to them. . .they know Islam is the truth but pride and envy will not allow them to accept it.

You and I know that Muhammad could not be trusted. Was he not the same one who said that the 'last hour' will not come until Muslims kill all Jews? Man, stop talking from both sides of your java lips, ok?

Besides, I'll let you in on this: if you want to really know what that sellout Jew was sitting and claiming in front of Harun Yahya, take the time to check out what he was saying - provide yourself with a transcript of the first 2 minutes. . . you never know: you may surprise yourself and wish this thread disappeared. Until then, viaro would be waiting to waste your piffle.

Mavenb0x:
@viaro: You have little idea how much respect I have for you! At the risk of overflogging the issue, let me say
1. The allegory of partaking in the mind &getting death, may I remind u of Christ's temptation? The devil quoted accurate scripture with a distorted spiritual meaning. So when he said it will make them like God he spoke the TRUTH. Partaking should NOT cause death, but it did BECAUSE that was the punishment for disobedience, and that was God's test of their faith &trust in Him.
2. The two trees. Again u say I directly refer to Jesus and the Holy Spirit but I will further liken it to this: God was in a pillar of fire that led the Israelites out of Egypt but the fire wasnt God. C.f. The burning bush where God appeared to Moses IN the bush. I guess the imbuement (lol) is of that wise. Thanks 4 always!

Mavenb0x:
@viaro: I hope my last post made sense. I just read it again and it seemed I was equivocating. Peace be unto you, brother.

No worries, I understand where you're coming from. La pace sia con te.