₦airaland Forum

delete [post #99]

@dexmond,

Thank you so much for those links. I had not seen the one at NOVA, but I think it's a good place where I sometimes hang out when I want to boggle my mind. For instance, I very much enjoyed the various musings of some celebrated scientists on 'Einstein's Big Idea', the 'm=e/c²' (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/). The other link at YouTube, I have to try and watch it again to grasp what exactly the guy was trying to present.

That said, I'm sorry to say that there does not seem to be sufficient grounds for some expressed reactions, especially the idea that dinosaurs lived with man. Maybe, maybe not. The thing is that many people are drawing unnecessary (and perhaps unfounded) conclusions from Dr. Mary Schweitzer's work/findings on the dinosaur's tissues. I don't think that the idea that 'dinosaurs lived with man' is what Dr. Schweitzer's work was about; and there is no reason to tie her research findings to that inference.

The major problem I have is the question that necessarily emerges from that conclusion, which is captured in your poser: "Does this evidence not support the theory of a relatively young earth?" My answer? No. Let me explain:

1. First, what is the "evidence" here? That word "evidence" seems to have been twisted to mean what it does not mean in this context. It was simply a research finding, and does not serve as "evidence" of what we want to argue. This is why I applaud Dr. Schweitzer's statement that "just because something looks familiar doesn't mean that that is what it is." We ought to be careful in what we are trying to argue. When we say "evidence", we must ask: 'what is the question?'

2. Now, if we ask: 'what is the question?', we shall find that Dr. Schweitzer did not set out to prove anything about a "relatively young earth" (RYE). That was not the premise of her work (I stand to be corrected on that). Dinosaurs are interesting creatures to research; but they are not the answers anyone should seek for "evidence" of 'RYE'. There are just too many things to consider for the age of the earth, and indeed for the age of the universe!

3. But as to the idea of dinosaurs serving as "evidence" for RYE, my question is this:

what caused the 'extinction' of dinosaurs that did not affect man?

There are a lot of suggestive answers to that question; but the point in my asking is that it could help the proponents of RYE to rethink their postulations. A 'relatively young earth' would suggest to many people that the earth is no older than about 12, 000 years counting back in time - but then, it is easier to speak about lions and tigers living with man (and that is still evident today) than to argue for "evidence" from a research that does not point in that direction.

All the same, thank you for those links.

^^^ Okay.

delete [post #99]

dexmond:
Yet, evidence shows that dinosaurs lived with man. They are busy keeping the information away from the public.

Hallo dexmond, could you please share more on your inference that dinosaurs lived with man? I don't know much about this, and the few bits of info here and there on the net have not been quite helpful. So could you please point me to a sound research ascertaining that conclusion? Many thanks.

Hi all,

For some mysterious reason, issues like this seem to draw out comments from me, as evidenced by one of my first posts on Nairaland. There's hope, people. .  there's hope. I see something playing out here. Some have called it the 'law of diminishing returns'. . others say it's 'seasonal'. But what am I all about?

Well, it should not surprise us that this situation was inevitable. Even where people talk about ordinary things away from religion, there's a point where boredom creeps in and nothing interesting comes up. I see that as a 'necessary' antecedent to a renaissance. . one that brings new things to the table for discussions (with the old inbetweens as side attractions). The question now is: how many here are willing to betake themselves to thinking deep and drawing out from the riches of their treasures to share with others? Rather than remain on the same page of noting the problem, could I join others in making suggestions that would move us beyond the present pale?

Here are a few I've been thinking about recently:

        * Death is NOT Final!

        * Can Anything Come Out of Nothing?
           Has Science Found Answers Yet?

        * Are We Alone In The Universe?

        * But What About Those Questions That Science Cannot Answer?

        * How Do We Answer To Strange Phenomena?

Good people, my apologies that I have not really had the time to start off these topics. .  they've all been in the pipeline, but just when I was thinking of having myself the fortune of some free time in December and January, something came up that will limit my aperance on Nairaland! (somehow, things often come up, don't they?)

What do you think? Can we revive this board and see some fresh insights? I know we have all noted the problem. . but I'm instigating a move beyond that now. We should not sit back with toothpicks like well-fed party invitees who smile as if there's nothing more to chew on. Oh c'mon. .  the party's only just begun!

God willing, in the next few days, I'll try to make those suggestions above into threads and all are invited to share their perspectives. Even if you're merely an observer, please come in and warm the place (but no verbal infernos, please).

manmustwac:
Abuzola has been banned

It's ironic that I'm beginning to miss him.

Hanoobaba:
I would like to urge the site administrator, to please create a new child board for Buddhists. Maybe those idiots would hold their peace and get some sense into their thick skulls when they see how we Buddhists are behaving.

Pardon me, but truth hurts - as long as your finger is pointing elsewhere and not to yourself. Your OP is crap talk and very pretentious. When you address others as "those idiots", one already sees how you Buddhists are behaving indeed! There's a saying that most people try to market their product only by defaming and pointing accusing fingers at others - which is how I see your intro to Buddhist behaviour.

Nairaland is a funny place, really. I'm just wondering that the moderator A_K_O plays along with this cosmetic circus. Please allow viaro to talk, and then you can go on the rampage and vex all you want . . afterall, others are addressed as "those idiots"! While I'm with tpia's opinion that the OP should 'ask the moderator to ban or delete any "detractor" who ventures into there', it leaves me wondering whether A_K_O's agreement with "Exactly" is tacitly saying that one is not to present rational and objective criticism on Buddhism where need be. Islam, Christianity, Grail Message, and even ATHEISM have all been debated, questioned, detracted, and left limp. Why is Buddhism going to be given a special barracks from the same exposure?

Guys, I'm not calling for spoilers. But if there's room for balance, I don't see how anyone would want to get away cheaply with an OP that has demonstrated the lunacy of seeing other people's idiocy and yet having the nerve to be self-congratulatory with "when they see how we Buddhists are behaving". No human endeavour (especially world views) are so water-tight that they cannot have any holes to be exploited. If the OP is afraid of the holes in Buddhism, we can well sympathise with that already, nevermind how he addresses others.


In fact, I get a sickening feeling reading this repetitive display of "others" are idiots but "we" are brilliant!

olabowale:
Did your muslim friend knows that you said his Lord said the earth is flat, and all the inuendos you have suggested? I wanna know what he has to say, happy or what?

I don't know, and I have said earlier that he has not yet replied my recent email. I shall ask him your question as well; although I must remind you that he does not believe in a flat earth and has said he is not eager to discuss the issue from the quran.

Please be patient, I shall forward your question to him.

olabowale:
@Viaro: the reality of my engaging your thought, and not you or your personality is because others may have the chance to read my responses against yours. You are calling people to hellfire with the obvious lies, while I will try inshaAllah to try to let people see that you are not a leadership that will benefit them, at the end!

Interesting! There could be only one source that is lying - your Muslim scholars who have argued for a FLAT earth and damned the astronomers. I'm grateful that we (ie., you and I) can engage our thoughts amicably in all this; but I have not claimed any leadership anywhere since entering this thread, sir. If the Muslim sources I posted are lying, the fault is theirs, not mine. So instead of complaining, please simply visit those links and see for yourself that they have real problems - and stay there to deal with them!

And when the Chrsitians cant defend their indefensibles, they resort to what you have done, a wholesome blanket, say carpet (it covers everything) of denial is hulled up against the truth!

The "carpet/rug" thing was not a Christian problem - let everyone who reads this thread see that such an idea came from Muslims from start to finish. You have tried to defend that idea until you ran out of steam. . . now too ashamed of using it as a device, you pretend it is a "Christian" thing.

That's another serious joke! I'm looking for another penny to toss in your cup!

olabowale:
@Viaro: i dont know you mother's tongue. Mine is Yoruba and no one except a yoruba person brought up in Yoruba land and culture can under that language more than me! If a word is said in yoruba language and I have never heard of it before, i will ask it to be used in a sentence. If after that, i will ask it to be used in some other expressions, like story teling or in other forms.

I am not Yoruba, although I respect their culture and language. But hey, how does Yoruba come into a discussion about your Arabian "carpet/rug of the Turks = ostrich eggs", huh? You're telling far too many stories, and I've run out of pennies to toos for your efforts. So, please take a hint and save the rest.

I will ask you to show us the word meaning "FLAT" in arabic and see if it sound like Duhaha. I will ask you to show us the word "Spread" and or the expression "spread out" if it is not Duhaha.

I am not an Arabic speaker; nor are you Arabian-born. Like I said earlier, you cannot gull me or anyone with your tall tales hopping from dahaha/lahaha or whatever to carpets of the Turks and spreading them anywhere from mahogany trees to horse backs to tarpolines. Please er, please. . you're beginning to panic - and that is not a good sign of stability.

The one thing you're missing here is that your worries should be directed to "most of the scholars" in Islam whose works I have quoted without editing anything from them! THEY ARE THE ONES who argued for a FLAT earth on behalf of the quran. . . THEY ARE THE ONES who damned the astronomers. .  THEY ARE THE ONES who gave your Muslim world the Tafsirs. .  THEY ARE THE ONES who are still shaping the thoughts and consciences of Muslims who hop from Turkish carpets to ostrich eggs!

So, if you have any confusion on what they have translated, please contact their publishers. I just happen not to be one of them, sorry.

Finally, does it means everything spread out is flat, or rather noticeably expansive? Can you think of anything that is spread out that is not flat? Yes I can.

Dear sir, are you taking up your grumblings against viaro, or against the Muslim scholars who concluded that the earth is flat? Don't be confused here. .  let me remind you again:

          As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’,

         this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat,

         which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law

         source:
         Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
         © 2008 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan


There, olabowale. . please focus.  It is not "everything spread out" that your Muslim scholars are arguing - they rather categorically asserted that -

           the earth is flat,

. .  that is what is important here. So why all the panic and sweating to divert the gist here?

Abuzola:
Did you read my post on tafsir at all, tafsir means comment so how is that  a big deal

I did. . and answered below:

---

Abuzola:
All this you are doing is rambling, why not show us how basit came into that context,

Abuzola, are you forgetting that "basit" was not my worry? So, why are you asking me to answer roll-call for you, afterall it was you who mentioned "basit" in this thread?

First, you screamed for "ostrcih eggs", now you switch over to "basit". . . is there something seriously missing in your em, . .  socks?

tafsir means comment on,  even you a xtrian can tafsir on the Quran so where da hell  is the fact

Yes, my friend told me so - that is why I am grateful for his help in sending me the links to check out from Tafsir al-Jalalayn. But as a Christian, I cannot "tafsir" anything on the quran - it is not my style to claim a scholarship that I don't have!  I only consult my Muslim friends who have been so friendly and helpful.

To update you, olabowale. .

olabowale:
eggs however are known to almost all cultures, so it is reasonable that egg is the likely  answer, rather than ostrich spreading the earth/soil!

(Abuzola, please mark the above highlighted in red - see that olabowale is categorically refutting your earlier argument for the ostrich theory! )

Anyhow, there is a fundamental question that everyone is asking on this subject, which the quran captures well in chapter 88 verse 20 -

       "And at the Earth, how it is spread out?" [Yusuf Ali translation].

That is a pivotal question that I'd have appreciated Abuzola to answer - how is the earth spread out? Rather than recycling Abuzola's sad remarks of 'ostrich eggs', or olabowale's 'carpets/rugs from the Turks', let's hear it from the mullahs and powers that be in the Muslim world.

---

Source #C - [commentaries on the shape of the earth from various verses]

Quran 88:20 -
'And at the Earth, how it is spread out?'

[list]Tafsir al-Jalalayn[/list]

[list]وَإِلَى ٱلأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَت[/list]

[list]commentary:
"And the earth, how it was laid out flat?, and thus infer from this the power of God, exalted be He, and His Oneness? The commencing with the [mention of] camels is because they are closer in contact with it [the earth] than any other [animal]. As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law."[/list]

[list]source:
Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
© 2008 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=88&tAyahNo=20&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
[/list]
____________________

Quran 91:6 -
"And the earth and Him Who spread it"
[M.M. Pickthall's translation]

[list]Tafsir al-Jalalayn[/list]

[list] وَٱلأَرْضِ وَمَا طَحَاهَا[/list]

[list]commentary:
"and [by] the earth and the One Who spread it, laid out flat"[/list]

[list]source:
Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
© 2008 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=91&tAyahNo=6&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
[/list]


Please olabowale, I could go on and on and on to the same point, but what is the use, reeally? We can see that contrary to your weak excuses, other more respected Muslim sources argue for a FLAT EARTH on behalf of the quran! You can join issues with them; but please don't come back complaining, because I did not edit those commentaries but rather quoted them precisely as they have published those works - that is why I left the links for easy access and confirmation. Among all the commentaries they articulate, we gather that -

    *  Islam has argued for a FLAT earth

    *  that this was "the opinion of most of the scholars"

    *  that it was "not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it"
        [that is, astronomers are dead wrong, but Muhammad's flat earth is correct!]

    *  that also, even there is a contradiction between astronomers and Muhammad,
        then follow Muhammad and damn the bloody, stupid astronomers!

You guys are very, very good at making viaro laugh so very much! I owe you many, many thanks!



Indeed, I've had a very good evening laughing at your jokes. . . I should add another penny for your efforts, olabowale! Islam has argued for a "flat earth"; but because Muslims are too embarrassed today to continue that 'flat-earth-Turkish-carpet' mentality, they have switched over to Abuzola's 'ostrich-eggs' one-finger litters. I've got no issues, dear sirs. .  your real problem is with Tafsir al-Jalalayn and co.

Easy. Done.

olabowale:
@viaro: Carpet is soft, not stiff, just like a soft leather. No? Have you see riding leather spread on the back of a horse, by its rider? Thats an assignment for you! AS to the Mahogany tree, get yourself a carpet and throw it on the tree, and if the tree is strong you will see the shape that the carpet will take. If the tree is weak, when it collapsed, the carpet will take the final shape of the pile of rubbles as it remain spread on it. Alhamdulillah, this is visual, so you will see it!

Now if you see sanitation haulers before, some of the containers are open, so to not let debris fly all over the place when it si being transported from the collection site to the land fill, they use tarpoline to cover the open top, tying it down at interval, and if the container is ful and has a mound on top, the tarpoline takes that shape! tarpoline is similar to carpet. No?


The earth is like an ostrich egg did not therefore translate that the earth is an ostrich egg! The spreading out of the earth is like the spreading out of the carpet! If you ever have a carpet, spread it out, and you will see that it goes/moves forward before your eyes, as it rolls out! Ths is similar to the earth since it continue without end to roll out/spreading out forward in front of your eyes!

Olabowale, please stop all this comedies! You can't kill me with laughter! Your carpet excuse is a fallacy, period! Throw it anywhere you like -

* on an arabian horse

* mahogany trees

* on water

* or, any ostrich eggs

. . dear sir, none of these excuses is going to help you out of the hole you dug for yourself. Please invent a trillion more excuses. . . including the recent "tarpoline" - it won't work! Your quran does not argue that allah spread the earth on a camel, horse, ostrich, goose, duck, mahogany tree, or anything! So, please stop wasting time looking for excuses on behalf of the quran.

Abuzola:
Are u a male or female, why the name abusock, or are u a gay ?

I'm male; and no, I'm not a gay, thank you.

My calling you Abusocks (Abu + socks) is a friendly play on your username/ID, nothing special - just as I didn't take offence when you called me "vanity", remember? Actually, I liked it and laughed out loud!

But if Abu+socks scares you, no worries. .  I won't use that again. (I'll think up something nice soon. . . something more scary than that! )

Olabowale. .  continuing:

olabowale:
Abuzola says he is a specialist in that language, yet you are defending the obvious, when you could have easily research dahaha, an arabic word, for its loose meanings in English and show some matriculation by it. Ostrich as a bird could not be well known to the arabs, since even in west africa, we dont have them. eggs however are known to almost all cultures, so it is reasonable that egg is the likely  answer, rather than ostrich spreading the earth/soil!

I think others who have published works authoritatively on the subject can be more authentic than your posts on Nairaland; so what follows are a few authentic Muslim/islamic sources that comment on that verse (Quran 79:30) as well on what they believed the quran teaches about the shape of the earth.

Please bear in mind that I hinted in post #6 that "some people (surprisingly even some Muslims among them) argue that Islam believed in the notion of a flat earth" - and we shall see some of those sources below:

---

Source #A.

[list]Tafsir al-Jalalayn

وَٱلأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا

[list]"and after that He spread out the earth: He made it flat, for it had been created before the heaven, but without having been spread out;"[/list]

source:
Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
© 2008 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=79&tAyahNo=30&tDisplay=yes&Languageid=2
[/list]

_________________

Source #B.

[list]Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

وَٱلأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا

[list](And after that He spread the earth) even then He spread it on the water; it is also said: 2,000 years after that He spread it on the water,[/list]

source:
Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou
© 2008 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=79&tAyahNo=30&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
[/list]


Is it not clear that more authoritative sources in the Muslim world have asserted a flat earth without ostriches and eggs that you have been trying too hard to interpolate on behalf of the quran? Please don't blame me - blame your misgivings on those Muslim sources I quoted directly! They said it was a FLAT EARTH . . on an earth that was spread on WATER. I don't know if "water" can resemble an "ostrich egg"; but I know that argument of a flat earth is what Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas argues for.


[Hint: I also asked this friend of mine if there's any such word as 'ostrich' in the quran. . . he has not replied as yet, so when he does, I shall let you know.]

Abuzola:
WTF, you liar, all am saying is basit doesn't exist in the context of dahaha,

Who's lying? Did I claim that 'basit' exists in the context of 'dahaha'?

Abusocks, I never claimed any such thing. If I did, please quote me directly and let's see. Otherwise, don't panic or sweat between your arabian fingers!

There, olabowale. . please let me continue. . I don't know why my dear friend Abusocks is knocking fingers like someone shivering in arabian winters!

(3) your quote: 'when you could have easily research dahaha, an arabic word . .'

Okay, I could have easily done that; but the reason why I did not bother is because others have done the research and debunked the dubious Islamic claim of making 'dahaha' into 'ostrich egg'. I posted a link for that earlier in post #10; and if you follow my reasoning above for (1), you will understand that I already compared notes and understood that such a claim of 'dahaha = ostrich egg' is patently false! If you care, here's another popular link that educates the public about the arabic word (Moroccan) for ostrich egg -

http://moroccanfood.about.com/od/glossary/g/bayd.htm

Please take some time and visit that link where you will find the arabic word for 'ostrich egg' is transliterated as 'bayd dyal na'ama'. Not only the term for ostrich egg, but others are given as well -

* bayd dyal hamaam - pigeon eggs

* bayd dyal na'ama - ostrich eggs

* bayd dyal bat - duck eggs

* bayd dyal samaan - quail eggs


Be that as it may, it is not 'ostrich eggs' or any other types of eggs that is more important in this enquiry.

Rather, I'm more interested in the collective Islamic thinking about the shape of the earth itself in accordance with how Muslim scholars have interpreted allah's quran. For this, my apologies that I would have to prefer the more authoritative Muslim voices who are widely respected within the Muslim world, than to listen to your insignificant assertions here that nobody pays any attention to. Don't go ballistic - it happens. . and it makes more sense.

Abuzola:
Stop disgracing urself, basit means spreading of a thing e.g carpet so stop blampheming in arabic

Why are you panicking? I thought you were hooting for an ostrich egg before? Why suddenly switching over to a carpet? I asked you much earlier to show me the resemblance between a "carpet" and an "ostrich egg", you came back with the expected one-finger grumblings that said zilch!

So, please sit back and let me laugh at you both!

Now, this one is quite interesting:

olabowale:
But then, if you are not a speaker of a language how would you know the root word and meaning of an idiomatic expression, of that language when it is spoken? Abuzola says he is a specialist in that language, yet you are defending the obvious, when you could have easily research dahaha, an arabic word, for its loose meanings in English and show some matriculation by it. Ostrich as a bird could not be well known to the arabs, since even in west africa, we dont have them. eggs however are known to almost all cultures, so it is reasonable that egg is the likely  answer, rather than ostrich spreading the earth/soil!

Are you seriously joking or seriously trying too hard to complain, sir? Either ways, let me try and help you here:

(1)  your quote: 'if you are not a speaker of a language how would you know the root word and meaning of an idiomatic expression . . ' blah, blah! True, I am not a speaker of the Arabic language; and I do not know the root word and meaning of many idiomatic expressions in that language. But at the very least, I could do several things:

         *  I could contact or consult those who know how to speak the language;

         *  I could consult scholarly resources on any particular arabic word

         *  I could compare the linguistic arguments of arabic scholars on that word

         *  I could also compare and contrast between various usages of the word

         *  then I could draw a good conclusion as to know who's lying somewhere

So, dear sir, even though I do not speak the Arabic language, I do not expect to be led on gullibly by pretenders of that language who are in the habit of making dubious excuses (such as your example of Turkish carpet/rug for covering the body in winter!). More importantly, you do not expect to gull any non-Arabic speaker with the ridiculous conclusions you make on aoth with 'by allah'!


(2)  your quote: 'Abuzola says he is a specialist in that language, . .'
No sir, Abuzola is NOT a specialist in that language nor did he claim to be one! I do not expect you to make such silly claims on his behalf - unless he is quite at home to enjoy your lying on his behalf. He only claimed in post #7 to be a 'graduate' in arabic studies, quite a different thing from being a specialist in that language.

Dear olabowale, please forgive any typos in my replies. . I'm laughing too hard at your comments!

olabowale:
The Kurks have a rug/carpet made of silk, and by Allah you can almost want to wear in or at least as a quilt or cover yourself with it in bed, especially in winter. So to assume that carpet is spread out means flat without considering that it is flat only upon the shape of what it covers as it is spread out on it, is silly and deceitful if the proponent knows the truth, but insists in telling this fabble, easily detected!

Okay, by 'Kurks' I reckon you might've meant 'Turks'. No worries at all - we all have typos.

However, your story-telling has served me one useful purpose, which is to disturb my muslim friend for answers concerning the sort of remarks coming from you guys here. That is why I'm so glad that, although he's not so inclined to entertain the embarrassing statements you make, yet he educated me a bit about Turkish cultures, artifacts and paraphernalia. In that way, I learnt about one of those carpets/rugs of the Turks: it is called 'kilim' (or 'kelim', 'gelim' or 'gilim'). They are the most recognized group of flat-woven rugs made in Turkey, Kurdistan, Iran and western Turkestan.

Whatever you may argue for the carpets/rugs of the Turks, a few facts which cannot be controverted are these:

* #1 - they are not spread on ostrich eggs;

* #2 - nor are they produced to be spread on any type of eggs;

* #3 - nor are they made for any other purposes than to be spread
on flat surfaces or plains;

* #4 - carpets/rugs are not made to be worn on the bodies or used
as quilts to cover someone in bed in winter or any season!

In fact, point #4 above is remarkably ridiculous! How can you suggest that anyone could almost "want to wear" a carepet/rug, or at least use as a "quilt or cover yourself with it in bed" - then swear upon such a ridiculous statement 'by allah'? I respect whatever cultures anyone holds; but please don't insult the Turks by lying in such a manner on their behalf! Makers of Turkish carpet/rug know the purposes of the products they make - and I don't know how many Turks would be counted for using rugs to cover themselves in bed in winter! Imagine the sight! Indeed, I agree that it is both "silly and deceitful" to make the sort of twisted suggestions you offer to excuse the flat earth quranic belief for a Turkish carpet! M-e-n. .you are pricelessly hilarious indeed.

Now, as to your other excuses, it is needless to go through them bit by bit - because you're recycling the same tales over and over again and getting nowhere. A penny for your hardwork. I'll just rather outline your passionate counter-arguments neatly, so we don't lose the kernel of the discussions here:

olabowale:
and as to Viaro's assertion to mean that carpet has to be flat like a floor in your living room when its spread out, is completely off the mark! Proof: Carpet takes the shape of what you spread it upon. if on a mound or mole, it takes that very shape because it is a form of host shape taking thing, similar to clothing on this matter.

So, dear sir, the best "proof" for your Quran 79:30 on the issue of 'carpet-and-egg-shape' is that 'the carpet takes the shape of what you spread it upon', huh? That's the best you can do, yes? Lol, that is quite funny, sir. Go and spread your carpet on a mahogany tree and let's see how true your excuses are! You are one serious comedian! So, tell me, olabowale. . did allah spread the earth on an ostrich egg or what? You guys are too funny to even think through what you argue. I just regret having not noticed how funny you can be when I first said you should never engage me in discussions.

Besides, no one would think of spreading a carpet on any thing or place other than on a flat plain. Proof? Simple: because carpets are not made to be spread on ostrich eggs! Nada. . zilch. The only people who want to spread carpets on ostrich eggs are those who reason like you! But I shall come back to this point soon enough. . . hahaha!!

Hallo olabowale,

I actually should not waste any time on your weak excuses to cover up for the blunder of 'a carpet' turning into an 'egg shape'. You're trying too hard to save face, and your excuses are far too embarrassing and hilarious to imagine how you could even go the length of pandering such silly suggestions for your 'carpet-duhaha-becomes-ostrich-egg'. But my friendly attempt to reply your misgivings is just to humour people who would stop at nothing to further their disingenuous enterprise as you're doing for your friend Abuzola.

First, let me deal with your previous bit in post #22, which is either an obvious oversight or a queer pretence not to have seen it answered already:

olabowale:
How can the Christians ignore the 4 corners of the earth, yet have the audacity to say spreading means or almost indicating the same 4 corners, or something like that?

How can you complain in that manner after my having discussed the meaning of that phrase in posts #1, #2, and #3?? No, Christians did not ignore the meaning of that phrase, and I also went so far as to show that other people outside the Bible have used the exact same phrase without meaning it to be in reference to a flat earth! What do you understand by this example taken The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer -

      'Athletes came from the four corners of the earth to compete in the Olympics.'

Now, does that example mean that "athletes came from a flat earth to compete in the Olympics?"  C'mon you muslims, you surely can do better than pretending you cannot understand what everyone else understands - unless your comments were a deliberately miscalculated attempt to be humourous on your part. Even from such a respectable source as The American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, nobody confuses the phrase as meaning a flat earth! . . so why is it that only muslims with arabic verbose are confusing what everyone clearly understands?

Abuzola:
@vanity or is it viaro- in arabic spread means 'Basit' so how come your duhaha an ostrich egg turns to spread ? Huh

Hehe, Abusocks. .
I didn't know about that; although I could consult some of my muslim friends again - no harm in that, no? However, the one thing I know for a fact is that olabowale's transformation of a carpet into an ostrich egg is most hilarious. I've been laughing my sides since I saw it; but I'd wanted to close from work in my late shift before playing around to humour you guys. Sit tight and enjoy.

I was just wondering. . what was all the performance about - just for offering what?

When would some people learn to put aside their show-off in worship? I could bet that there were others who gave more in humility than the 'acrobatics performer and invisible tree climber' in that vid.

Hahahahaha! You've got to be the number 1 joker of the year!

uplawal:
even when i was a xtian i was not illmannered like FOCUS123,talk more of now that ISLAM has given me a complete way of life,

So, right after you are supposed to get a "complete way of life" in 'islam', you then became even more ill-mannered, as evidenced by the second line -

BIG SHAME TO YOU FOCUS123,YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO XTIANDOM,ORAISA BOY

The evidence of your complete life is before all - before becoming a muslim, you curbed your ill-manners; but after you became a muslim, you turn round to use ill-mannered language on others as 'proof' of 'Islam' . . evidence in all capital letters! Very convincing and a good laugh! Have a complete Sunday!

cleartruth:
If you'll reason with me, just as the "HOLY BIBLE" advised us all, I want to tell you dat God's major reason 4 creating us on earth is to worship and him alone is worthy of worship, not dat we should direct all his praises to his messengers and prophets;

If your quran supposes that only allah alone is to be worshipped, why then did the same allah command angels from the beginning to bow down to Adam? We know that Adam is not allah; so why was allah asking angels to do the very thing that Islam forbids?

[list]Quran 2:34
And when we said to the angels, "Bow down and worship Adam," then worshipped they all, save Eblis. He refused and swelled with pride, and became one of the unbelievers.[/list]

Abuzola:
Quran 17

110 Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Invoke Allah or invoke the Most Beneficent (Allah), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.

Did I just read "by whatever name"? Are you serious? So if someone uses a derogatory name, it is still the same as "whatever name"? When people begin to do so, how can you complain afterwards that they should not use "whatever name" for allah?

Just so that you don't run off to the arabian dessert again, please answer this question I asked you earlier in post #6 -

---

Abuzola, what is a rational observer to think of this statement -

          *  how does 'the earth like a carpet spread out' resemble en egg-shape?

That is the simple question to answer without your usual one-finger sentences of verbal attacks!   Since you are very scientific and mathematical, . .

please show us the correlation between an egg-shape and a flat carpet.

That would be a trance in the 25th dimension! Happily waiting.

Abuzola:
Thank God you didn't deny the corner of the earth, you even emphasize it by stressing the four ends of the earth. I guess you didn't read your copy - paste properly, cheers

There was nothing to deny, only to show you your misunderstanding of the meaning of the phrase. As you can see, none of the sources I quoted used that phrase to mean a flat earth, and only liars who are uneducated have continued to make that mistake.

Abuzola:
An invisible friend indeed, when will you christian desist from lying.

He is not an 'invisible' friend. If I knew, I would not have asked him - and the verses posted are not a lie, are they? If they are, the quran is a damn lying book, no? Or, the muslim friend must have been lying as well, no?

The word in that verse says 'Dahaha' meaning an ostrich egg

This lie has been soundly rebutted - not by me or any invisible friend, but by careful readers who can search out your pranks and expose you to the dessert sand!   Let me give you one such place you will find the rebuttal -  http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090310052115AAEdWm9.  In that Yahoo link, someone (obviously another muslim simpleton) had recopied and posted the same dross of 'dahaha' for ostrich egg.  Scroll down on that page to the user name 'sani', and you will find this excellent rebuttal (which has been posted on many sites already) -

[list]
Quran 79:30: And after that He spread the earth,
Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha
وَالأرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِك دَحَاا هَا
دَحَا = daha= spread out , level off , level. The last ha = هَا in dahaha means this.


Heading off apologetics 101:
=====================

Lisan Al Arab - Duhiya:

الأُدْحِيُّ و الإدْحِيُّ و الأُدْحِيَّة و الإدْحِيَّة و الأُدْحُوّة مَبِيض النعام في الرمل , وزنه أُفْعُول من ذلك , لأَن النعامة تَدْحُوه برِجْلها ثم تَبِيض فيه وليس للنعام عُشٌّ . و مَدْحَى النعام : موضع بيضها , و أُدْحِيُّها موضعها الذي تُفَرِّخ فيه .ِ

Translation: "Al-udhy, Al-idhy, Al-udhiyya, Al-idhiyya, Al-udhuwwa:

The place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg. That's because the ostrich spreads out the earth with its feet then lays its eggs there, an ostrich doesn't have a nest."


Al Qamoos Al Muheet - daha:
(دَحَا): الله الأرضَ
(يَدْحُوهَا وَيَدْحَاهَا دَحْواً) بَسَطَها

Translation: "Allah daha the Earth: He spread it out."

Al Waseet - daha:
دَحَا الشيءَ: بسطه ووسعه. يقال: دحا اللهُ الأَر

Translation: "To daha something: means to spread it out. For example: Allah daha the Earth."


Lisan Al Arab daha:
الدَّحْوُ البَسْطُ . دَحَا الأَرضَ يَدْحُوها دَحْواً بَسَطَها . وقال الفراء في قوله والأَرض بعد ذلك دَحاها قال : بَسَطَها ; قال شمر : وأَنشدتني أَعرابية : الحمدُ لله الذي أَطاقَا

بَنَى السماءَ فَوْقَنا طِباقَا

ثم دَحا الأَرضَ فما أَضاقا

قال شمر : وفسرته فقالت دَحَا الأَرضَ أَوْسَعَها ; وأَنشد ابن بري لزيد بن عمرو بن نُفَيْل : دَحَاها , فلما رآها اسْتَوَتْ

على الماء , أَرْسَى عليها الجِبالا

و دَحَيْتُ الشيءَ أَدْحاهُ دَحْياً بَسَطْته , لغة في دَحَوْتُه ; حكاها اللحياني . وفي حديث عليّ وصلاتهِ , اللهم دَاحِيَ المَدْحُوَّاتِ يعني باسِطَ الأَرَضِينَ ومُوَسِّعَها , ويروى ; دَاحِيَ المَدْحِيَّاتِ . و الدَّحْوُ البَسْطُ . يقال : دَحَا يَدْحُو و يَدْحَى أَي بَسَطَ ووسع

Translation: "To daha the earth: means to spread it out." (followed by some poetry to give definitive proof as to the meaning of dahaha)[/list]

You can do some other searches and find where the lie of dahaha = egg-shape has been rebutted!   You never read, never understand, never seek to be educated. . only copy and paste hilarious one-sided lying muslim arguments.

so where did you get your absurd translation or rather another replacement,

I can't laugh enough! Please stop ducking your head in sand and pretending you did not see the translations after each quote. The translations are all known as works of Muslim translators - and I posted them there after each quote:

            Saheeh International English Translation

            A. M. Daryabadi translation

            M. Asad's translation

            A. Bewley's translation

            M.T. Hilali/M.M. Khan translation

            Al-Muntakhab's translation

            M.M. Pickthall's translation

            Qaribullah/Darwish translation

            M. Sarwar's translation

            Shakir's translation

            Sher Ali's translation

            Yusuf Ali's translation

These translators (I am informed) are respected Muslim scholars - so why did they not use the dubious mistranslation of "egg shape" in that same verse? None of them in their scholarship translated it as "egg shape"; and in fact, Yusuf Ali's translation categorically says the earth was spread our like a carpet. Tell us, how does a carpet resemble egg shape? Huh?

I am a graduate in arabic studies so i know better than you, stop yielding to the lies you copy on the net

When will you muslims be ashamed of your lies? You're only a graduate of plagiarism - copying dubious arguments from other people's ignorant websites. And the people you copied from are graduates of confusion for themselves.

At any rate, though. . . some people (surprisingly even some Muslims among them) argue that Islam believed in the notion of a flat earth. Although my friend that gave me the list earlier does not believe in a flat earth, he has not shown me any verse that teaches a spherical earth from the quran. I shall not press him too far or too hard; and although he is not eager to discuss further on that subject, it may seem a good concluding note to post a few which he left me without comments (other than the epitaph that 'the reader should draw his own conclusions from them'). .

So, here are a few of those verses he left me in the second, separate list:

*  "And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet);
     set thereon mountains firm and immovable;
     and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance."
~~ Yusuf Ali's translation, Quran 15:19

*  "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out;
    has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels);
    and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced
    diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others."
~~ Yusuf Ali's translation, Quran 20:53

*  'And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),'
~~ Yusuf Ali's translation, Quran 71:19


My comments and observations (not my muslim friend's comments) are that Yusuf Ali's translation is very well respected in the Muslim world; and thereupon, in at least three verses in the quran he translates them in the prevailing islamic notion of a flat earth. Otherwise, Abuzola, what is a rational observer to think of this statement -

          *  how does 'the earth like a carpet spread out' resemble en egg-shape?

That is the simple question to answer without your usual one-finger sentences of verbal attacks!   Since you are very scientific and mathematical, please show us the correlation between an egg-shape and a flat carpet. That would be a trance in the 25th dimension! Happily waiting.