Evil Brain: Muslims generally don't deny that other Muslims kill people for leaving their religion since is something that happens so often in.so many countries.


What some people deny is that the Koran actually commands Muslims to kill apostates. The problem is thatch Koran and hadiths contradict themselves on this and many other issues. There are passages that talk about killing captives who refuse to become Muslims, and there is another that says there is no compulsion in Islam.

Muslims tend to solve this problem by accepting the passages they like and ignoring the others. So the more intolerant, fundamentalist types happily shout for blood whenever an apostate is caught. And the more tolerant Muslims get to pretend that their their religion is civilized and that those people killing in the name of Allah aren't "real Muslims".

LagosShia:

Please bring the passage of the Quran that says captives who refuse to become muslim should be killed.

This is for the second time I am reading you putting words into Islamic scripture.



You should bring those passages.and if you don't ,then you'd be called worse than a liar.

MacDaddy01:





Denial is a common thing among many muslim apologetics


"Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray."
Muslims generally interpret "those whom Allah has favored," "those who earn Allah's anger," and "those who go astray" as Muslims, Jews, and Christians, respectively. 1:6-7

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10

Allah has blinded the disbelievers. "Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see, Deaf, dumb and blind." 2:17-18


If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24 <

They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein." 2:39

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

"Allah has cursed them for their unbelief."
Because I disbelieve in his bullshit, Allah has cursed me, along with nearly six billion other non-Muslims. 2:88
The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89

"They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom." 90

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

"For disbelievers is a painful doom." 2:104

Don't question anything Muhammed says or choose disbelief over faith. 2:108

The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109

"But those who keep their duty to Allah will be above them [non-muslims] on the Day of Resurrection." 2:212

Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114

"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

LagosShia:

I wasn't asking for what is the judgement of God.

tbaba1234:

Thanks for the question;

The first thing to say is that in islam, there is no compulsion in religion, The Quran(translated) states:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256)

However in an[i] Islamic state[/i], there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None,

LagosShia: regarding those muslim countries you are talking about,there are laws which must be respected.in those countries,no one would come into your house and ask you how many times you have prayed a day if you dont want to pray 5 daily prayers as muslims do.so really faith is a personal choice in the heart.the problem comes in when the choice of the heart becomes a political tool.the issue about conversions in muslim countries or even the world over isnt about personal freedom.it is about politics and the society.many christians want to proselytize in muslim countries not to "save" people but to politicize the issue and win converts into christianity and then use that to cast doubt in the mind of the people and use that politically.in muslim countries that is not allowed.also,when you have a regime that takes its legitimacy from being an "islamic regime",you cant expect it being undermined or rather conversions being used to create confusion in mind of people to instigate doubt.if people convert for the reason of "saving" themselves,then why do christians politicize it in muslim countries"

in the west for instance,christianity is not what gives the regimes legitimacy to a large extent.so people can afford to not only change faith and believe what they believe in their hearts,but also publicize it.but if in the west or in nigeria or anywhere anyone talk about regime change or threaten to change the regime,that is a treasonable offence.imagine someone in america threatening to install a communist system.as a matter of fact being a communist in america was once a punishable crime.

the below is what i have being saying on the issue of apostacy and Islam:

when talking about punishment for apostacy in islam,the death penalty is not prescribed as punishment in the Quran.there is no killing for apostacy.this issue is controversial even in islamic circles.that is my personal take on the issue.i believe capital punishment for apostacy is a judeo-christian tradition found in the bible where "everyone should be stoned" literally.however,if a law exists somewhere,then it must be respected.we know how you must behave as a roman when in rome.it is part of iranian law that proselythization is a criminal act.then dont go there doing it.that also does not mean that iran does not respect or protect its minorities among them christians who have being there for about 2000 years.

this is the take of the Quran:

Holy Quran 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects Taghut and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

Holy Quran 4:137
"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path."

if (4:137),if a person is to be killed for apostacy,then how can he believe again after he disbelieves?

another point i would like to add is the politicization of converts and conversions.nobody whether in Iran would come to ask if you are muslim or christian.if you believe in christianity then do that for the sake of God if you believe that pleases God.publicizing it is aimed at making political statements and creating unnecessary attention apart from simply being interested in worshipping the god you have at heart.also,i personally believe when you live somewhere you must be law abiding.

Please also refer to this post for a good explanation:

MacDaddy01:
1) You have shown that the Quran is contradictory as there is a verse that says unbelievers should be killed and yet it says that there is no compulsion in religion.

2)Apostacy laws and blasphemy are wrong. I have every right to hold atheist conferences (just as christians have christian camps) as long as I am not forcing anyone to go. That is my human right and you are a wicked muslim to try and support such denail of human rights in Iran

3) Laws do not equal morality. Segregation was in the American law before people (Rosa Parks) broke it and protested. Dont be ignorant.

LagosShia:
Please show us the verse.


You're entitle to your opinion.that is the beauty of Islam:"to you your way and to me my own way".

MacDaddy01:


You are asking for the most quoted verse by non-muslims in the Quran? You really want to act like you dont know that the verse is there?

#lying for islam

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Paris Love: Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260

MacDaddy01: ^^^


Do you think I am going to swallow that apologetic nonsense?


Kill them wherever ye find them- doesnt sound like a defensive battle.


Simple debunking of the "muslim self defense" theory

LagosShia:

Those people deified Imam Ali (as) and were thus undermining the very basis of Islam and the state:tawheed. they were changing the religion and the religion doesn't belong to them. that in itself is false testimony inspite of the fact that Imam Ali (as) never claimed to be a "god".that also amount to treason because Imam Ali (as) was the caliph and the head of state and they were not only disobeying him but making and spreading false charges against him while he was yet alive.

Paris Love:

So they were killed for changing religion after Muhammad died. They were killed For apostacy. Apostacy is a treason for you guys ain't it?

LagosShia:

In english there is a difference between 'changing religion' and 'changing the religion'.

I have also earlier explained in this thread about apostacy in Islam and I'm not going to repeat myself.

LagosShia:

In english there is a difference between 'changing religion' and 'changing the religion'.

I have also earlier explained in this thread about apostacy in Islam and I'm not going to repeat myself.

by Paris Love(m): 2:38am

LagosShia:

Those people deified Imam Ali (as) and were thus undermining the very basis of Islam and the state:tawheed. they were changing the religion and the religion doesn't belong to them. that in itself is false testimony inspite of the fact that Imam Ali (as) never claimed to be a "god".that also amount to treason because Imam Ali (as) was the caliph and the head of state and they were not only disobeying him but making and spreading false charges against him while he was yet alive.


So they were killed for changing religion after Muhammad died. They were killed For apostacy. Apostacy is a treason for you guys ain't it?

by nakash: 4:47am
In this case the court determined that he was born to a muslim father and hence he was a muslim , never mind that throughout his life he never practiced islam. Lagosshia in another thread today you said Iran practices Islam correctly. We can now see what you support Death to apostates. believe me you will not convince anyone here about the mercies of Islam.

LagosShia:

In english there is a difference between 'changing religion' and 'changing the religion'.

I have also earlier explained in this thread about apostacy in Islam and I'm not going to repeat myself.

Actually when a child is born the shahada is whispered in his ears and that makes him/her a muslim for life. Try to leave it and you end up dead either lawfully or some fanatic muslim.

by Paris Love(m): 8:47am
Lol, "changing the religion" like how? It's not like shi'as and sunnis are practicing the same thing so it has been changed. And it's still the same thing. If they are "changing the religion" it means they've already left or discarded the one Muhammad practiced so it's still apostacy. That's why they where killed. No wonder the sectarian violence cus each believes the other is wrong. angry
https://www.nairaland.com/961495/timeline-sectarian-terrorism-against-shia

Apostasy that is not violent against Islam does not have violence against it.

Allah gives allowance for people to leave and return to Islam, until the actions are deemed as joking, deceitful. The most liberal and up to date religion is Islam because surah Kafiruun says you have your way and i have mine; agreeing to disagree [live and I live].

It is ignorance that will make someone say leaving Islam will be met by death. In the USA, today, I know a family that a daughter now refuses to pray or cover at 19, while her sister who is 20 is opposite. I also know a family in Nigeria where a daughter living with parents has left Islam while her younger siblings are practicing it. Now choose which you are going to use as your excuse it is not a muslim country to support your wrong view of Islam. I am waiting, nakash.

Sweetnecta: What did Yahweh [Jesus still in heaven then, you christians claim] did when they built the golden calf? Yahweh killed them and those who were not killed were wasted in the wllderness within 40 years. 40 years is 2 generations, today. they were released by Yahweh from this deadly grip only when the new crops grew old enough without the evil doers of old.
Imam Ali [ra] was correct to act using the action of Moses, the man Yahweh spoke to "face to Face" according to you, even claiming that he saw Yahweh's back or neck. If Yahweh as Jesus in heaven killed those people through Moses, you willnot expect a believer of the God of Jesus, Ellah/Allah to not kill those who are making him into "golden calf".

Sweetnecta: Shia, Sunni and others read the very same Quran, in addition to having the same Lord God Allah the Almighty, same messengers and prophets from Adam to Muhammad [sa], same salah [subh, dhur, asr, magrib and isha, including witr and tahajjud [after midnight prayer]], fasting and all its principles and rulings, zakat and sadaqah, hajj and umrah, same legal marital process, birth, life and death and burial. What you have different are simple political understanding and interpretation and process. So tell me what is left of what Muhammad [sa] brought and who left it?
Let me ask you, which "christianity" is correct? Which church?

Sweetnecta: @Paris love: What did Yahweh [Jesus still in heaven then, you christians claim] did when they built the golden calf? Yahweh killed them and those who were not killed were wasted in the wllderness within 40 years. 40 years is 2 generations, today. they were released by Yahweh from this deadly grip only when the new crops grew old enough without the evil doers of old.

Imam Ali [ra] was correct to act using the action of Moses, the man Yahweh spoke to "face to Face" according to you, even claiming that he saw Yahweh's back or neck. If Yahweh as Jesus in heaven killed those people through Moses, you will not expect a believer of the God of Jesus, Ellah/Allah to not kill those who are making him into "golden calf".


@Nakash: You could have said not practicing Islam on his own in his adult life, because he must have practiced it as a little baby, a child, still depending on parents. My children used to make ablution and prayers with me as children. Its natural for human to wanna prostrate. Apostasy that is not violent against Islam does not have violence against it. Allah gives allowance for people to leave and return to Islam, until the actions are deemed as joking, deceitful. The most liberal and up to date religion is Islam because surah Kafiruun says you have your way and i have mine; agreeing to disagree [live and i live].



what makes a child a christian for life is the ere birth to the christian family. That is sad and very sad indeed. Muslims are brought into it by initiation of the Ahdan in the right ear and Iqamah in the left. I have not heard of shahadah as you said. You have poor and incorrect knowledge of Islam. If you claim born again or baptism is the entry into Christianity, then you cant fault Islam for Ahdan and Iqamah. More importantly, do you expect parents to leave children alone because even animals guide their young in the things that are instinctive to them.

It is ignorance that will make someone say leaving Islam will be met by death. In the USA, today, I know a family that a daughter now refuses to pray or cover at 19, while her sister who is 20 is opposite. I also know a family in Nigeria where a daughter living with parents has left Islam while her younger siblings are practicing it. Now choose which you are going to use as your excuse it is not a muslim country to support your wrong view of Islam. I am waiting, nakash.



@Paris love: Shia, Sunni and others read the very same Quran, in addition to having the same Lord God Allah the Almighty, same messengers and prophets from Adam to Muhammad [sa], same salah [subh, dhur, asr, magrib and isha, including witr and tahajjud [after midnight prayer]], fasting and all its principles and rulings, zakat and sadaqah, hajj and umrah, same legal marital process, birth, life and death and burial. What you have different are simple political understanding and interpretation and process. So tell me what is left of what Muhammad [sa] brought and who left it?

Let me ask you, which "christianity" is correct? Which church?

Paris Love:
Lol, "changing the religion" like how? It's not like shi'as and sunnis are practicing the same thing so it has been changed. And it's still the same thing. If they are "changing the religion" it means they've already left or discarded the one Muhammad practiced so it's still apostacy. That's why they where killed. No wonder the sectarian violence cus each believes the other is wrong.
https://www.nairaland.com/961495/timeline-sectarian-terrorism-against-shia

LagosShia:

The foundation of Islam all muslims adhere to is tawheed.

The fundamentals of religion known as Usoolud-din of the Sunnis are the same ones the Shia subscribe to.

The disagreement is largely built on the furoo-ud-din (branches of religion) which is largely built on interpretation.

It is only in christianity you find hardly two sects or denomination sharing the same fundamentals if there is any.and each sect/denomination is so distinct it can be classified a religion on its own.take for instance catholics and jehovah's witnesses.very big differences.even on the only fundamental belief in christianity shared presently by almost all christians-which is the doctrine of crucifiction-christians still differ therein.was he crucificted on a cross or a stalk? E.t.c.

The hadith of 73 sects and only one being the saved one is not agreed upon as authentic.there are many factors God will judge man on.it is difficult to say God would simply send people to hell fire based on what they believed even though Islam is the chosen path of God Almighty.therefore we muslims do not sentence people to hell as christians and bible thumpers do threatening anyone who doesn't "accept" Jesus (as) as his "lord and saviour" with hell.so even if one be a criminal once you believe you're "saved"!and no matter how good you're once you disbelieve christians would play God and send you to hell fire.Islam is not like that because God is the Master of the Day of Judgement-"maliki yawmiddin"!

LagosShia: The foundation of Islam all muslims adhere to is tawheed.
The fundamentals of religion known as Usoolud-din of the Sunnis are the same ones the Shia subscribe to.
The disagreement is largely built on the furoo-ud-din (branches of religion) which is largely built on interpretation.

LagosShia: It is only in christianity you find hardly two sects or denomination sharing the same fundamentals if there is any.and each sect/denomination is so distinct it can be classified a religion on its own.take for instance catholics and jehovah's witnesses.very big differences.

LagosShia: The hadith of 73 sects and only one being the saved one is not agreed upon as authentic.there are many factors God will judge man on.

LagosShia: it is difficult to say God would simply send people to hell fire based on what they believed even though Islam is the chosenpath of God Almighty.therefore we muslims do not sentence people to hell as christians and bible thumpers do threatening anyone who doesn't"accept" Jesus (as) as his "lord and saviour" with hell.

LagosShia: so even if one be a criminal once you believe you're "saved"!and no matter how good you're once you disbelieve christians would play God and send you to hell fire.Islam is not like that because God is the Master of the Day of Judgement-"maliki yawmiddin"!

Paris Love: OK
Yes there maybe be some differences. But they don't go blowing each other up for those differences. [/b]https://www.nairaland.com/961495/timeline-sectarian-terrorism-against-shia
[b] Just like you differ in who's the right successor of Muhammad. Really cross or stalk? Didn't know that was a subject for debate
that's your own cup of tea. Just hope you're on the right sect. Else y'all will be herded to hell with the kafirs
Lol, where you on something when you typed that?

Surah5:80 Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will
abide in hell.

Surah 3:10 Those who do not believe in
Muhammad are but fuel for the fire of Hell
(also 66:6, 2:24. 21:98).

Your prophet calls the Christians “ gone astray” and invokes on them the wrath of God (Q. 1:7) Muslims recite this verse every day as their prayer.

Muhammad said, may Allah destroy the Christians for calling Jesus son of God. (Q.9:30)

Jesus made it clear that those
Who will inherit the Kingdom of God are those whose who do the will of God. So believing in him isn't just enough. You also have to obey his commandments of which being a criminal is not among. But contrast that to your prophet who promised Paradise to the Ummah, even if they had committed adultery, thievery, and drank wine.
I heard Abu Dharr narrating it from the Apostle (may peace be upon him) that he observed: Gabriel came to me and gave me the tidings: Verily he who died amongst your Ummah without associating anything with Allah would enter Paradise. I (the narrator) said: Even if he committed adultery and theft. He (the HolyProphet) said: (Yes), even if he committed adultery and theft. Sahih muslim Book 1, Number 171