It surprises me when I see muslims quote the bible; i wonder if they teach biblical studies (or whatever) in mosques or Islamic schools. I've never even touched a Koran though I saw one recently. I dont know of any christian who reads Korans, except for academic (theological) reasons. It's even more surprising that muslims, at least on nairaland, try to show that the Koran and bible are in agreement. Even funnier, is how they love to say they are the true followers of Jesus (as if that's not what the word 'christian' means). I wonder why they wont be called christians if they are the true followers of Christ. Plus, if you agree that this "prophet" never sinned, why do u call Mohammed, who sinned, the greatest prophet?

Nuru,

there is no way anyone can claim to be a christian and not believe the passage you referred to, yes, we believe there is only ONE God. However, this same Jesus we worship said, that God can be approached ONLY through Him. We are to pray IN His name to God. The main difference between Islam and Christianity is the denial of Jesus' divinity by Islam. The divinity of Christ is one of the fundamental beliefs of christianity. Jesus equated Himself with God, didn't regard Himself as a prophet. The fact remains that these two religions are different, since Christianity isn't based only on the fact that there is one God, but that Jesus is the Son of this God, a part of the Trinity, and the ONLY access to this God.

BTW, I can't imagine how muslims can claim to be Jesus' true followers and hate the Jews (His own people). The Jews are not christians, and are known to persecute christians, but it is a common practice in christianity to pray for them and for the peace of Jerusalem. We know they mean a lot to God and play an important role in His plans for the future of this world/eternity. This is probably part of why America is very involved in anything concerning Israel.

nuru:

This is the Truth that God sent Muhammad to come and redirect people of the world towards.

That is why it is not Mohammedanism. It is the religion of Truth.

Jesus warned against any prophet that would come after Him preaching another gospel. He said He is the Truth, He is the Son of God, He came to die to reconcile men with God. Mohammed didn't say this, he actually said the contrary.

nuru:

Have you ever seen a greater gathering of mankind from the greatest number of towns and villages in the same spot at the same time, saying the same thing and doing common things together. Have you ever considered a path that ensures the king and the servant stand shoulder to shoulder several times in a day.

Have you ever consider a path that says you are not a believer until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself and at the same time urge you to stand firm in face of tyranny and confront mischief headlong.

Have you ever wondered on the beautiful way the Quran is recited unadulterated for fourteen centuries. Don't you think you are missing something in your life by not clearly following Jesus and the Prophets. Look beyond you, look at the prophecies in the Quran being fulfilled in your age. Look at the benevolence of Muhammad, the greatest human being to ever walk the surface of the earth. A president, a Prophet, a family man , a businessman. a doctor, in fact every good attribute rolled into one.

Actually, Islamic countries are some of the poorest countries in the world. The rich ones, with oil, have some of the widest gaps between the rich and the poor. It doesn't mean much standing beside a rich man to pray, or even eating from his table at certain times a year, when you can't afford the luxuries he can all year long. (all religions and even sports bring rich and poor together) Plus, Jesus was obviously not concerned with the number of followers, He was more interested in the quality of their followership. That churches now glorify themselves in numbers is an aberration.

The way Islam is being practiced today makes this love you're talking about hard to understand. It seems very conditional. Muslims round the world kill adherents of other religions, and even their own brothers who leave Islam. Iran is currently saying that Israel would be wiped off the map. What happens to all the women and kids there?

Also, just as you guys claim the bible has been adulterated, we can't be sure the Koran hasn't been adulterated too. Not that it really matters to christians though.

nuru:

Have you read the Quran before. Will you take up my challenge and discover for yourself the practical truth of existence and Fountain of Wisdom.

It is shame that in this age of information, some people would remain without approaching the Quran themselves but would rather harp on prejudice to discuss the truth of life.

I admit that I've not read the Koran before. I believe all the inspiration I need is in the bible and that the Koran, or any other religious book, should be read for academic reasons only but I've not had to do any theological studies. Since I've not read the Koran, I can't claim to know anything about Islam, except what I've observed. Thus, rather than "harp on prejudice", I base my discussions/arguments on the "truth of life" on the bible.

GL:


Jesus warned against any prophet that would come after Him preaching another gospel. He said He is the Truth, He is the Son of God, He came to die to reconcile men with God. Muhammad didn't say this, he actually said the contrary.

First Jesus did not say he is the Son of God, neither in the Bible nor in the Quran. If anythinhg, he reffered to himself as Son of Man. The Quran refers to him as Son of Mary.

GL:

Actually, Islamic countries are some of the poorest countries in the world. The rich ones, with oil, have some of the widest gaps between the rich and the poor. It doesn't mean much standing beside a rich man to pray, or even eating from his table at certain times a year, when you can't afford the luxuries he can all year long. (all religions and even sports bring rich and poor together) Plus, Jesus was obviously not concerned with the number of followers, He was more interested in the quality of their followership. That churches now glorify themselves in numbers is an aberration.

The way Islam is being practiced today makes this love you're talking about hard to understand. It seems very conditional. Muslims round the world kill adherents of other religions, and even their own brothers who leave Islam. Iran is currently saying that Israel would be wiped off the map. What happens to all the women and kids there?

There are rich and poor islamic countries in the world today just like many others that are non-islamic.

Muslims do not kill adherents of other religion, rather muslims stand up to the oppressors. The love that Islam preaches can be seen by all except those who blind themselves to it. There is no way everybody can be equal in life but brotherhood must still stand out. That is what Islam instills when God is worshipped in Unison.

As for the issue of Isreal, it is a political thing and this is not the forum for that. But first of all go and read how the state of Isreal as we know it today came into emergence. If Ireal is wiped off today, of course the women and the children would live just like the muslims have always been magmanimous in victory to thier adversaries.

GL:


Also, just as you guys claim the bible has been adulterated, we can't be sure the Koran hasn't been adulterated too. Not that it really matters to christians though.

I admit that I've not read the Koran before. I believe all the inspiration I need is in the bible and that the Koran, or any other religious book, should be read for academic reasons only but I've not had to do any theological studies. Since I've not read the Koran, I can't claim to know anything about Islam, except what I've observed. Thus, rather than "harp on prejudice", I base my discussions/arguments on the "truth of life" on the bible.

It matters for the christians to know that the Quran is unadulterated because at least they have through it an opportunity to know Jesus Christ better. As for not reading the Quran, i think it will do a lot of good if you read it even for academic purpose. That will enbale you to know Islam. Why i say this is that somebody who knows islam once told me that he went somewhere and saw muslims but no islam, and went to another place and saw islam but few muslims. There is need for you to know Islam. Whether or not the so called ''muslims'' are actually practising Islam is a different case.

On the qualification you gave our agreement to worship one God, a lot of christians dont know that muslims too always mention the name of Jesus in their petition to God. We do not pray in his name but we ask God to do it for the sake of the love He has for Jesus, for the sake of honour He gave to Muhammed etc. And our prayers are anwered. This is in line with not only the way Muhammad taught us in his hdith to pray but also the principle that Jesus tried to lay when he taught the disciples ''our Father who hath ih Heaven, forgive us our sins as we forgive those who tresspass against us '' Note that he did not say '' forgive us our sins in the name of your son ''

Most muslims are not afraid of reading the Bible because it still contains fragments of Truth that can be distilled from the errors that crpt into the record of the teachings of Jesus by using the Quran as a Guide. In fact Quran was revealed to correct all those errors. You would agree with me the Authentic teachings of Jesus was not called a Bible in his presence and not compiled into a book. We can only appreciate the efforts of the compilers and at the ame time correct their errors. That is what happened at the Council of Nicea, 325 A.D. or so, cant remember the year precisely. The varoius writing by supposed witnesses and story tellers were examined and those that passed the criteria set forth then were compiled into one book to be called the Bible. Have you ever wondered why the Catholics have more books in their own collection. The nearest you can find to the original teachings of Jesus if you dont want to refer to the Quran is to compile the direct statements credited to Jesus from all the books of the Bible. Leave out all the storylines, leave out anything that is said or reported by said by other persons. Straight Jesus talk. You will have something i call the Gospel according to Jesus. Please do the exercise and experience remotely, the Jesus Islam is talking about.

It is erroneos to say muslims muder christians. I grew up under a christian mother and i have not mudered her. The fact is that western media with all the jewish grip always feed the public with distorted and one sided view of issues. Again, this is politics. Another thread will do justice to it.

Just like your experience that some people who treated you unfairly later came to become your friends, same has happened to me. Same can happen to a Jew or Hindu etc. The nature of a well balanced man is to enjoy peace, no wonder God himself named the balanced path Islam, which means Peace.

@ Nuru,

You put everything well. I hope she takes your advice. Sometimes I wonder why the mongoloids, when they read the Quran, suddenly realise their errors, and in a fit of epiphany change to Islam, and become very faithful adherents. I wish our Negroid brothers, and indeed all other races read the Quran, and assess it themselves.

I will also want to say, Muslims are better advised to use their own good deeds to pray to God for things rather than use other people like Jesus (ASW), and Muhammed(SAW). There are obvious reasons for this.

First Jesus did not say he is the Son of God, neither in the Bible nor in the Quran.

John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Matthew 26: 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. 67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Muslims do not kill adherents of other religion, rather muslims stand up to the oppressors.

You make me laugh in 7 different nigerian languages. I am beginning to think your problem goes beyond unbelief and ignorance to blindness. What do we see all over the world, and in Nigeria if we want to be closer to home?

It matters for the christians to know that the Quran is unadulterated because at least they have through it an opportunity to know Jesus Christ better.

In fact Quran was revealed to correct all those errors. You would agree with me the Authentic teachings of Jesus was not called a Bible in his presence and not compiled into a book. We can only appreciate the efforts of the compilers and at the ame time correct their errors.

I don't actually believe the Qu'ran is unadulterated, but if it is, is is actually an unadulterated lie. The Qu'ran wan't even compiled till years after Mohammed died. Yet you guys want us and give us a different impression. According to you guys, Mohammed was not even literate, so how did he proof-read to make sure what he said is what was written down?

The nature of a well balanced man is to enjoy peace, no wonder God himself named the balanced path Islam, which means Peace.

I don't agree that Islam means peace. The world has never known peace since the advent of this religion. besides, if you are talking about peace, Jesus is said in the scriptures to be the Prince of Peace.
You guys are just blabbing without coherent proofs of all you say. I hope the scriptures I quoted above will make you see the fallacy of your statement earlier. If you want more quotes from Jesus, I'll gladly give them to you.

@nuru,

Again, you're making so many blunders and contradicting yourself your last response. Let me share my observations:

nuru:

First Jesus did not say he is the Son of God, neither in the Bible nor in the Quran. If anythinhg, he reffered to himself as Son of Man. The Quran refers to him as Son of Mary.

What Bible have you been reading? In the Bible, Jesus clearly called Himself both the Son of God and the Son of Man, pointing to His deity and humanity. Read John 10:36 - "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (See also Mark 14:61-64 quoted below).

The Father clearly owned that confession from heaven that Jesus was His Son. "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." And again, at the transfiguration: "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." (Matt. 3:17 and 17:5).

At a pivotal discourse in His ministry, He asked a question about who men thought He was. When Peter confessed Him to be the Son of God, Jesus admitted to that confession and did not seek to correct Peter or any of His disciples. "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Matt. 16:16-17).

His admitting to the confession that He was the Son of God in His trial was the basis for His having been condemned to death. "But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mar 14:61-64)

The chief priests, scribes, and elders who watched Him hanging on the Cross knew that He had indeed confessed to being the Son of God at His trial. That's why they said: "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God." (Matt. 27:41-43).

Even demons who were cast out by Him confessed Him as the Son of God. "And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God." (Mark 3:11)

So, nuru, which Bible have you been reading? You didn't see all these verses before taking a typically Islamic posture by ignoring them, or otherwise quoting certain texts out of context to help your agenda? If this is the way you've been trained to reason, then you should note also that Jesus did not say any of those things Mohammed said He did in the Qur'an (Sample the following to help you: Qur'an, Sura 19:30-35).

nuru:

Muslims do not kill adherents of other religion, rather muslims stand up to the oppressors. The love that Islam preaches can be seen by all except those who blind themselves to it. There is no way everybody can be equal in life but brotherhood must still stand out. That is what Islam instills when God is worshipped in Unison.

Are you actually saying this to grown-ups on Nairaland with your eyes closed? Have you been reading another book than the Qur'an where Mohammed purportedly received revelation to kill Christians and Jews and every other person/people who do not follow Islam? Sample these:

Qur'an 3:85 - "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)."

Qur'an 9:5 - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Qur'an 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Qur'an 9:123 - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)."

By the way, tell us nuru: who were oppressing the Muslims in northern Nigeria before they went on rampage killing innocent souls, targeting especially those whom they thought were Christians? In what way were these oppressions demonstrated against the Muslims of the north? Who was oppressing Muslims in Pakistan before they started killing Christians who were fellow Pakistanis? Not to even mention that Muslims who cannot all agree to interpret the Qur'an in a particular way are killing one another in Iraq. Nuru, open your eyes: the worship of God in unison does not translate into Shiites killing Sunnis; and both of the parties forming cliques to kill everybody else who are not Muslims.

More later.

As promised, so here:

nuru:

It matters for the christians to know that the Quran is unadulterated because at least they have through it an opportunity to know Jesus Christ better. As for not reading the Quran, i think it will do a lot of good if you read it even for academic purpose. That will enbale you to know Islam. Why i say this is that somebody who knows islam once told me that he went somewhere and saw muslims but no islam, and went to another place and saw islam but few muslims. There is need for you to know Islam. Whether or not the so called ''muslims'' are actually practising Islam is a different case.

Alright. I have read the Qur'an and have a few questions. If the Qur'an provides a better knowing of Jesus, why have Muslims found it so difficult to acknowldege that He was actually crucified according to the Qur'an itself? Did I shock you? I guess not, come back and ask me how, and I'll give you a no-nonsense look at the verses that say so. Second, how is it that only sketches of vague interpolations about the life and ministry of Jesus are found in the Qur'an when you can easily grasp a better picture in the Bible? How did Jesus live among His disciples? What were His specific miracles and upon whom did He show His mighty acts of mercy and healing? What were His specific prophecies, and what exactly did He teach as the way of salvation? You will not find answers to these questions in the Qur'an other than mere skeletal phrases here and there that lead nowhere. If I'm mistaken, please provide the verses that give the details about these questions in the Qur'an.

nuru:

On the qualification you gave our agreement to worship one God, a lot of christians don't know that muslims too always mention the name of Jesus in their petition to God.

I'm staggered. Since when has that become an Islamic injunction? Even ajia23, after congratulating you on your poor scholarship, disagrees with you for "obvious reasons". Okay, I didn't take my Muslim faith seriously enough before becoming a Christian; but never once did I hear that as muslims, we were to mention the name of Jesus in our petition to God. At least, not in the way that Christians offer their petitions to God through the name of Jesus Christ, for He said: "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son" __and__ "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you." (John 14:13 & 16:23).

nuru:

We do not pray in his name but we ask God to do it for the sake of the love He has for Jesus, for the sake of honour He gave to Muhammed etc. And our prayers are anwered. This is in line with not only the way Muhammad taught us in his hdith to pray but also the principle that Jesus tried to lay when he taught the disciples ''our Father who hath ih Heaven, forgive us our sins as we forgive those who tresspass against us '' Note that he did not say '' forgive us our sins in the name of your son.''

"For the sake of the love He has for Jesus" is the very same thing as asking in Jesus' name. This is why no Old Testament believer ever brought a petition to God in the name of a prophet - from Moses to Malachi. It was only Jesus that taught believers to ask and pray in His name; and if they're asking or praying for the sake of the love of God for His beloveed Son, they're actually asking in His name: "And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." (John 17:26).

Second, where in the hadith did Mohammed teach Muslims to pray in the way you've stated? I'm interested and would appreciate a reference in the hadith. Third, What Mohammed taught Muslims about prayer has no bearing or correlation to what Jesus taught Christians. There's no meeting point at all between them for the one huge fact that Mohammed never recognised Jesus as the Son of God, nor did he accept in anyway that God could be addressed as "Father" by Muslims. Even so, you might want to take a look at Luke 24:47 - "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." That indeed teaches that Jesus instructed the disciples to preach forgiveness of sins in His name.

Yet some more soon.

And here it is, nuru:

nuru:

Most muslims are not afraid of reading the Bible because it still contains fragments of Truth that can be distilled from the errors that crpt into the record of the teachings of Jesus  by using the Quran as a Guide.

The Qur'an will and has continued to mislead those who use it as a guide for reading the Bible. I don't want to go through again with reminding you that there are historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities and grammatical errors in many Qur'anic texts. Take, for instance, Muslims who are quick to accuse Christians of worshipping more than one God, should realise that there are more than one Allah in the Qur'an. The holy book of Islam is undecided as to whether Allah is a singular being or a community of polytheistic deities. I hope that does not merit a fatwa on me, but see for yourself:

Qur'an 21:30 - "We made every living thing of water" and 24:45 - "And Allah has created from water every living creature."

Qur'an 25:54 - "It is He Who has created man from water" and 15:26 - "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape"

Qur'an 19:67 - "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" and 37:11 - "Them have We created out of a sticky clay"

Is Allah One or Many? It won't even help your case to placate your confusion with that old weak tale of "those verses are speaking of the majesty of Allah and not plurality!" We've been through it before, and I've stated it here again for your consideration: Allah in the Qur'an is polytheistic - he/they is/are not one, but many.

nuru:

Just like your experience that some people who treated you unfairly later came to become your friends, same has happened to me. Same can happen to a Jew or Hindu etc. The nature of a well balanced man is to enjoy peace, no wonder God himself named the balanced path Islam, which means Peace.

I doubt that you're disposed to peace, otherwise you'd not have sought to make that bogus analogy to slap someone without a cause or suggested that someone vacates their IQ in order to park their vehicle in the middle of the road. A few strokes of your paint brush have messed the picture of the nature of a well balanced man who truly seeks and enjoys peace; and I guarantee you that only when you know the peace of Jesus Christ in your heart, will you then be able to understand the meaning of what you've poorly represented.

@ Mlks_baby

Please provide your references that the Quran acknowledges that Jesus was indeed crucified. If you can prove this beyong reasonable doubt (even if it were just only subtly pointing to that fact) then I will renounce Islam. I await your response mon amie.

@ajia23,

Tré bon - I'll do so as soon as nuru indicates his shock. Dress warmly. 

@mlks_baby,

You have succintly put the matter in a way only one destined for hell will not see the truth in your statements.

Dear Nuru,

I kept coming across the word "peace" in your many references to the quran. I am bewildered! Are we both living on the same planet? whcih peace are you talking about? The "peace" in Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, somalia, Egypt, Algeria, and all other numerous muslim states?
The "peace" that exists in northern nigeria?
Which peace is yours?

My Father tells me in Phil 4:7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Besides, you are but a "slave" to your so called Allah. I am a friend, son and joint heir with my father who is in heaven!

Thanks mlks_baby for that piece. I was kinda too busy to lay out my rejoinder the way you did, but you essentially expressed my thoughts.
However, I am also waiting to read what you have to say about Jesus crucifixion in the Qu'ran. All I know is that the Qu'ran states that Jesus was substituted on the cross with someone else (sounds like another Davinci code). Nevertheless, this shows how near, yet far away Islam is from the truth. There was substitution on the cross quite alright. Christ was substituted for me. I deserve to hang on that tree for falling short of God's righteousness, but Christ stood in my place.
He paid a debt He did not owe, I owed the debt and I could not pay. I needed someone to take my sins away; now I can sing a brand new song, amazing grace, Lord Jesus paid the debts that I could never pay. Hallelluyah!! Shout Amen somebody! I think I'm gonna have church right here and now.

@ TayoD

What you said defeats logic. Why would a just God sacrifice his son for you? I mean kill someone without sin for a sinless person, doesn't that just give you a sense of nostalgia? I mean in Naija, a poor innocent man is killed for a rich guilty one by the law. Is this what you say God is doing? However the Islamic position that Judas was mistaken for Jesus and crucified instead is more plausible. Aftreall Judas betrayed him according to the Bible, so it was akin to atoning for his sins. Also, historically, nothing was said about where Judas was buried after his 'suicide'in the bible. But I can tell you the disciples were shocked to see Jesus in person after he was taught to be dead- even the bible reports this. If you say Jesus resurrected, did he do so in body or spirit? If it's in body, that is totally impossible, especially as his body will not be suitable for him to use again with all that sin on his back. But if it was in spirit, then I will invite archaelogists to start digging for his remains, may be we can get a DNA test that will finally solve the puzzle.

@TayoD,

I'm glad that a few people are interested in my offer to nuru about what the Qur'an has to say about the possibility of Jesus death/crucifixion. No, it's not the same old tales we've been told for ages about someone being substituted for/in place of Jesus. In anycase, I'll post my findings soon, with verses from the Qur'an as ajia23 requested.

What you said defeats logic. Why would a just God sacrifice his son for you? I mean kill someone without sin for a sinless person, doesn't that just  give you a sense of nostalgia? I mean in Naija, a poor innocent man is killed for a rich guilty one by the law. Is this what you say God is doing?

You will find this answer in Romans 5: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time 6 Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  If you desire to know more the reason why the innocent blood of Jesus had to be shed, please go and read the Book of Hebrews.  time and space will not permit me to explain it in detail to you.  If you are interested, I'll be ready to answer any questions you may have from your study.

However the Islamic position that Judas was mistaken for Jesus and crucified instead is more plausible. Aftreall Judas betrayed him according to the Bible, so it was akin to atoning for his sins. Also, historically, nothing was said about where Judas was buried after his 'suicide'in the bible.

That is exactly my point.  Muhammad only borrowed from the Bible what he liked and made up his own stories to fill in the things that were not intellectually appealing to him.  You have to read the Bible and find out what it says about Judas.  His end and burial place was clearly stated in the Bible.  Matthew 27: 1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. 3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom F52 they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me. Acts 1: 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.So you see how wrong you and the Qu'ran is.  From that nrrative, it is clear that Judas died ahead of Jesus crucifixion.  Also, the place he was buried was a very well known place in Jerusalem and its history was known by all.

I'll continue.

@TayoD, good answers. Let me add this:

@ajia23,

ajia23:

However the Islamic position that Judas was mistaken for Jesus and crucified instead is more plausible. Aftreall Judas betrayed him according to the Bible, so it was akin to atoning for his sins

Slow down: what you have stated also invalidates your own logic. Why would Judas be crucified at all - for who? And if you're supposing that it was in connection to atonement of sin, are you saying that it was more plausible that Judas' crucifixion would atone for your sins?

ajia23:

Also, historically, nothing was said about where Judas was buried after his 'suicide'in the bible.

How does that help your case - by trying to find out where Judas was buried? I guess you'd have to look for the burial places of each one of the disciples of Mohammed as well if that would be helpful to you.

ajia23:

But I can tell you the disciples were shocked to see Jesus in person after he was taught to be dead- even the bible reports this. If you say Jesus resurrected, did he do so in body or spirit? If it's in body, that is totally impossible, especially as his body will not be suitable for him to use again with all that sin on his back. But if it was in spirit, then I will invite archaelogists to start digging for his remains, may be we can get a DNA test that will finally solve the puzzle.

This is one reason why I'm taking my time to answer some of your requests. You don't sound like someone who is genuinely seeking an understanding of the issues you are raising. Jesus was not thought by the disciples to be dead - He had told them often about it before it happened (Matt. 17:22-23), and some of them saw it with their own eyes when it did (John 19:25-26).

Yes, the Bible says He rose in body - a glorified body that had no "sin on his back." (Phil. 3:21 - "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself". It is even clearly stated in His re-assurances after His resurrection in Luke 24:39 - "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The resurrection points to the fact that there was no sin on Him after He bore them away (I Cor. 15:42), otherwise He would not have risen if there was still sin on Him. I suggest this was the reason why Mohammed could not have risen because he had sin, and as long as he rejected the offer of redemption provided in the sacrifice and atonement of Christ, you could imagine his fate.

You didn't need to wait until now to invite archeologists for your DNA hunt - for over 19 centuries since the event occured, Muslims have continued to doubt; and their way of solving the puszzle is to deny the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

But I can tell you the disciples were shocked to see Jesus in person after he was taught to be dead- even the bible reports this. If you say Jesus resurrected, did he do so in body or spirit? If it's in body, that is totally impossible, especially as his body will not be suitable for him to use again with all that sin on his back. But if it was in spirit, then I will invite archaelogists to start digging for his remains, may be we can get a DNA test that will finally solve the puzzle.

You are delving into issues you have absolutely no knowledge about.  The Disciples of course were shocked because they did not understand that Jesus was predestined to die and rise up on the third day.  I am at least glad you acknowledge that they saw him after the crucifixion.  From the Bible, at least 500 people saw Him after He ressurrected.  As to whether He rose up in body or spirit, the answer is very clear from the scriptures: [b]Luke 24:[/b] 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
And if you doubt that it was the Jesus that was crucified, here are some proofs for you: John 20: 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

ajia23:

@ TayoD

What you said defeats logic. Why would a just God sacrifice his son for you? I mean kill someone without sin for a sinless person, doesn't that just give you a sense of nostalgia? I mean in Naija, a poor innocent man is killed for a rich guilty one by the law. Is this what you say God is doing? However the Islamic position that Judas was mistaken for Jesus and crucified instead is more plausible. Aftreall Judas betrayed him according to the Bible, so it was akin to atoning for his sins. Also, historically, nothing was said about where Judas was buried after his 'suicide'in the bible. But I can tell you the disciples were shocked to see Jesus in person after he was taught to be dead- even the bible reports this. If you say Jesus resurrected, did he do so in body or spirit? If it's in body, that is totally impossible, especially as his body will not be suitable for him to use again with all that sin on his back. But if it was in spirit, then I will invite archaelogists to start digging for his remains, may be we can get a DNA test that will finally solve the puzzle.

Excellent! That is the main purpose of God, the bible says; Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Dear Ajia, that is why He alone is God and no one else, His ways defy logic, they can never make sense to a "rational" man. He does not do things that "sound plausible" to man else He'd just be like us too, mere mortals.
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
God chooses to do the irrational so as to confound the so-called wise men of this world like you who can only visualise things in the physical and cannot discern with the spiritual. there are certain things about the God that can only be understood by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You cannot understand God from a physical perspective and that is why it will continue to defy all logic why a man would send His only begotten Son to die for the sins of me and you!

If you say Jesus resurrected, did he do so in body or spirit? If it's in body, that is totally impossible, especially as his body will not be suitable for him to use again with all that sin on his back. But if it was in spirit, then I will invite archaelogists to start digging for his remains, may be we can get a DNA test that will finally solve the puzzle.

Jesus died a and rose again with a glorified body, he rose with a body that could pass through walls with locked doors, a body that could appear and disappear as he did to the disciples on the road to emaus. He ascended into heaven with his new body, the new body we shall all (those who believe) recieve that day when He comes in glory to take us to be with Him in paradise.

I will not argue further for: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them

Talking about the glorified body that we shall have, this differs certainly from the teachings of Islam where those in Allah's heaven are still subject to sexual feelings and will have plenty of harems to satisfy that sexual urge.  By the way, Islam teaches that those who kill converts to christianity from Islam will be rewarded with a BLONDE Harem.  The sexual orgy just continues.
You know what Jesus said about this line of thought?  He calls it Blasphemy.  Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Nuru,

Jesus called Himself the Son of God several times when He called God His father. He didn't refer to God as His father in the same terms as He did when He said to the people, "your Father in heaven". He actually equated Himself to God; He put them on the same level. In John 3:16 however, He stated it quite clearly that He is the "Only begotten Son of God". This was His own confession to Nicodemus. I hear that there is a Koranic passage that says something like God wasn't begotten and begot no one. That's a big contradiction, and clearly someone is lying - either Jesus or Mohammed. We (christians) say Jesus is right, muslims say Mohammed is. Obviously these are two very different religions.

Christianity is a very exclusive religion; the bible makes claims that do not give room for so many prevailing beliefs, including Islam. This is why christians are sometimes viewed as being narrow-minded. The truth is that there is no intermediate, if you do not believe certain christian truths, you're definitely not a christian. The difference btw Christianity and Islam is shown in 1 John 2:22-23:

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


The name "Christ" signifies the salvation Jesus brought to men. "Christians" are the followers of Jesus. I don't see how you can claim to follow Jesus Christ and say you're not a christian.


It's so funny to see muslims so eager to prove that Islam is similar to Christianity. You can claim to be the true followers of Jesus. However, it is obvious that we are not talking about the same personality, since the Jesus you talk about is not the Christ, and therefore not the same Jesus Christ christians worship

Nuru,

Let's get real here. There's no way anyone can claim muslims don't kill adherents of other religions. we have more than enough examples of such incidents in Nigeria alone, not to talk of in other countries. ppl do such things now and then so it wouldn't have been a muslim issue but for the consistency with which this happens both at home and abroad. also, they kill apostates. The Iranian president, Osama bin Laden etc. are all doing their thing in the name of Islam. I've not yet seen any main Islamic leaders coming to condemn it. See the incidence of the Danish cartoons. The best excuse you can give is that people have carried grievances into their practice of Islam and taken it to another level.

I'm not saying the Islamic countries are the only poor ones, all I'm saying is (with regard to your claim of love, brotherhood and unity) that they have some of the highest levels of oppression. This is evidenced by the fact that even the rich Islamic countries have a very high gap between the rich and the poor. What's the essence of standing beside an emir to pray or eating from his table during feasts when my kids can never afford the luxuries his kids can, and when my kids would also depend on his kids for meals during the feasts. This is not only a monopoly of Islamic countries alone, it is the same in the North of Nigeria, and probably in other Islamic communities. Maybe because submission is a big issue in Islam, there is a lot of oppression by the leaders. they cheat and misinform the ppl, yet keep them loyal to them.

Israel is obviously NOT a political issue, there's some politics involved but at the root of it all it is a religious issue.

I, for one, am not afraid of reading the Koran. I simply don't believe it would be helpful; it denies that Jesus is Christ, and is the Son of God. The bible calls that the anti-Christ. For this reason, i believe Christians should not read the Koran for leisure or inspiration, but solely for academic reasons. That's my opinion. There's no possible way someone on an academic quest can read the Koran to know more about Jesus, as there are several historical books that would be more effective.

As you said, the Koran says the bible acknowledges that the bible is from God, even though there are a lot of differences. The bible however, warns against any prophet (or doctrine) that would claim to be of God but deny Christ. Just as you think the bible has been adulterated, there is no reason for me not to think the Koran hasn't been adulterated. Whether the Koran has been adulterated or not doesn't really make much difference though, because the current content is contradictory to the bible. there is some textual evidence that the bible is still the same. see http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/bible/bible_01.htm

@ mlks_baby

This time around you were throwing cheap punches that do not help the case you are presenting. How can you ask me why Judas died on the cross. U said maybe it was to atone for my sins? The thieves that were purpotedly crucified with Jesus, were they also atoning for your own sins? Judas must have atoned for his sins, if you want me to simplify it for you.

Your second poser is more preposterous. Firstly Muhammed had no disciples. Secondly, knowing where Judas was buried will allow for the excavation of his body so that at least we could have some scientific data available about who he really was, race, ethnicity etc, as this may also answer some questions about Jesus (ASW). Even if Judas was crucified, surely he was buried. So, I don't know why you seem so angry at that question. However, the question was not directed at you, so if you do not want to answer it or any other, please feel free not to.

Please all, when I ask you questions about Jesus (ASW) please could you prove your case without resort to the bible? May be consult some history books? You see, when you ask about Islam, most times I try to explain by logic, and avoid as much as possible quotes from the Quran-since it's authenticity is doubtful to you. So please employ the same tactics as the Bible as it is constituted today is not credible to me.

@GL

I sense a certain sense of mainstream thinking in your last response. You claim the Iranian President is killing in the name of Islam. Could you please give credence to this claim? Is it because the West, especially US has chosen to make him the next bad guy that you say so? Or do you have proofs of instances he killed in the name of ISlam? This is what I said in some of my previous posts. We are afraid to counter mainstream thinking no matter how manipulated it is because of our own social standing, group memberships, career prospects, etc. Pre-Iraqi invasion, America played the tape of WMD in Iraq as a reason to justify it's invasion plans. Years after, no WMDs were found, then the story changed to Saddam's oppression of his people-which was true by the way. But, how many times before this has America invaded a country because the lleader oppressed it's people? Nigeria under Abacha, Libya, Cuba, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and most countries in the middle east are other examples, why did US not invade them to remove their despotic leaders? Hmmmm. You know, before Iraq was invaded G. Bush set the tone for the countries he would uproot after Iraq, Iran and North Korea featured prominently. Instead of calling Bush's campaign evil, we prefer to agree because he is attacking our perceived enemies. Do you realise that there is nothing Iran is doing now that is against International law? It signed a nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and this treaty allows her to pursue peaceful Nuclear programs- http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/WMD/treaty/ . So it is perfectly lawful. To say Iran intends to use it for military purposes is absolutely speculative, and law doesn't work on speculation.  Besides, India, Israel and Pakistan all developed Nuclear Weapons even after the treaty came into force, nobody raised an eyebrow. In fact the US rewarded India by agreeing to cooperate with it for civilian nuclear purposes. So, why is it making all the noise about Iran's nuclear program? And you do not know also that Ayatollah Khameini issued a fatwa against the production of Nuclear Weapons in Iran. If like you all agree that fatwa's are carried out efficiently by the Iranian regime, why would the international community doubt Iran's motives. But like I said before, you cannot judge people by their intentions until an attempt is made in the direction of making nuclear weapons. Already experts have said you would require over a thousand centrifuges to make the most basic Nuclear weapons, while they also acknowledged Iran is still very far from that point, so why all the bruohaha? I am personally against a Nuclear armed Iran, or any other country for that matter, but I will not support a violation of law, or adoption of hard tactics against the Iranian regime when it is illegal to do so.

Israel may be a mixture of religious and political issues, but I must ask you. If it were christians that populated the middle east at the time of Israel's creation, would you advice  that they simply scurried away tail in between their legs as they were being forcefully ejected from the place they had known to be home for so long? Are you saying it would have been different if it were in an european country that the kind of injustice meted out to those palestinians was carried out. Are you saying that if Yorubas (christians) were resettled in Igbo land(Christians) forcefully, the Igbos should just keep quiet and allow it happen? Please respond to these questions.


More later

Hello ajia23,

Let me respond quickly to your last response while you're waiting to bring more.

ajia23:

This time around you were throwing cheap punches that do not help the case you are presenting. How can you ask me why Judas died on the cross. U said maybe it was to atone for my sins? The thieves that were purpotedly crucified with Jesus, were they also atoning for your own sins? Judas must have atoned for his sins, if you want me to simplify it for you

The cheap punches were yours - not mine. For you to have touted the Judas case as you did earlier leaves one no alternative than to accentuate your lack of sagacity in that respect. Neither the Bible nor the Qur'an supposes that Judas was atoning for his own sins as you alleged.

ajia23:

Your second poser is more preposterous. Firstly Muhammed had no disciples.

Since he had no disciples, that explains why he was a failure and sought to spread Islam by the sword. It's understandable if you take the Shiite view of the Prophet's followers, as only the Sunnis recognise the Caliphs as among his disciples. Muhammad's earliest disciples were his cousin, Ali; the slave and adopted son, Zaid; then Abu Bakr (a rich and popular merchant of Mecca); Zobayr and Othman. Most Muslim authorities recognise his wife Khadija as his first disciple. If those were not disciples, what were they?

ajia23:

Secondly, knowing where Judas was buried will allow for the excavation of his body so that at least we could have some scientific data available about who he really was, race, ethnicity etc, as this may also answer some questions about Jesus (ASW).

Since you guys are in the habit of praising the Qur'an as the best revelation from God, why has this question eluded Muslims for so long? Let me help you: quoting nuru: "It matters for the christians to know that the Quran is unadulterated because at least they have through it an opportunity to know Jesus Christ better." So, are you now conceding to the fact that the Qur'an has failed to answer the questions you have about Jesus, and that's why you're looking for some scientific data of Judas?

ajia23:

Even if Judas was crucified, surely he was buried. So, I don't know why you seem so angry at that question. However, the question was not directed at you, so if you do not want to answer it or any other, please feel free not to.

I wasn't angry at all - you supposed I was. Whether or not the question was directed at me, if it was relevant enough to invite my response, I followed through with rejoinders. I was free to do so, yes?

ajia23:

Please all, when I ask you questions about Jesus (ASW) please could you prove your case without resort to the bible? May be consult some history books? You see, when you ask about Islam, most times I try to explain by logic, and avoid as much as possible quotes from the Quran-since it's authenticity is doubtful to you. So please employ the same tactics as the Bible as it is constituted today is not credible to me.

You could as well ask us Christians to consult the Da Vinci Code, afterall Dan Brown touted it as a historically accurate document. Titters. Mon Ami, don't you realise how convoluted your suggestion about this is? Nuru has been so upbeat about trying to prove from the Bible that Christians are not following the teachings of Jesus, and you didn't apply this rule to him when you congratulated his poor scholarship. I don't see why you'd have to legislate against the Bible if by quoting it (or even the Qur'an for that matter as I've severally done) it further sheds light on a subject. It may not be credible to you, only if you apply the same rule to the incredulous assertions of the Qur'an.

And FYI, all this hoo-ha about using logic to answer questions addressed to Muslims is not paying you guys any good. Whoever told you that logic is the best way to explain the Islamic religion/faith has seriously sown the weakest tool of rationality in the Muslim mind. If you want to use logic one and all, get ready to bear the inconsistencies that would be logically accentuated in Islam thereby.

Warmly and without anger.

@ mlks_ baby

While the bible or the Quran does not say Judas died for his own sins, if we are to go by one very popular quote from the bible-the wages of sin is death, then it will be safe to conclude that if it were true that Judas was crucified, then it can only be to atone for his sins of betraying Jesus. There was no better way of putting it since it's the Muslim belief. So thinking I was throwing cheap punches was wrong.

Your assumption that I am Shiite is incorrect. And the sunni do not believe the caliphs were disciples, they are companions and not disciples like those associated with Jesus. So everybody that lived in the time of the prophet (SAW) was his companion. That he was a failure is only a matter of your own conjuring. Even TIme Magazine voted him as the most influetial and successful man of all time-ahead of Jesus. If he spread Islam by sword, how did he convert Medina with only two other companions? Using the machine Gun I suppose? And if he was a failure, Islam will not be as large as it is today when viewed against the backdrop that it came 600 years after christianity. In fact, the Quran tells us more about Jrsus than you would admit. we believe Jesus (ASW) did not die. He ascended to God in human form, so excavating his "body" will only help us scientifically verify that our postulations on Judas are correct. We think logically, don't u agree?

Well it was you who said

This is one reason why I'm taking my time to answer some of your requests.

, and so I was surprised when you said you could respond as you pleased, I didn't even suggest you shouldn't. Hmm. Seems to me like a one-man riot squad who on a discriminate shooting spree, shot himself afterall.

I see your point about Nuru, and I admit you are right. Ok, may be re-writing the rules, would help. A muslim should not use the Quran to try prove his case since christians do not believe in it. Instead, he should resort to scientific evidence that is fact accross board. Ditto for vice versa. However, opposing camps can quote from the book of the opposing religion. I hope this is clear enoug, and you accept it. That way, we will be able to point out all the faults as we see them in the other person's book, and will enable us save typing many characters to prove our case from our books even though we know people would not believe it.

Your last staement is probably your own opinion. I expect that in due course, you will see how wrong you are. Islam and logic are in perfect harmony.

A muslim should not use the Quran to try prove his case since christians do not believe in it. Instead, he should resort to scientific evidence that is fact accross board. Ditto for vice versa. However, opposing camps can quote from the book of the opposing religion. I hope this is clear enoug, and you accept it. That way, we will be able to point out all the faults as we see them in the other person's book, and will enable us save typing many characters to prove our case from our books even though we know people would not believe it.

If you require "scientific evidence" to prove the existence and reality of your God then what makes him a God?
And why should i NOT QUOTE from the bible to prove my point? Your so called scientists also regard the bible as the best selling book of all time! The bible is regarded as the unadulterated word of God, the sword of the spirit, we cannot defend ourselves, we cannot prove His existence by science because God transcends science. Can a creation prove the existence of his creator?
The bible says, by searching we cannot find God, i am not willing to try.

Islam and logic are in perfect harmony.

Logic and the bible are on opposite sides of the pole! Try as you may. When Christ spake in parables to the crowd he said: i speak in parables that hearing they might hear and not understand, seeing they might see and not percieve. The things of God are only visualized by the Holy Spirit that is shed abroad in the hearts to those who believe. For to those who believe, to them He gave POWER to become the sons of God. that is beyond logic and human comprehension and that is what makes me fear and reference Him. If God can be proved by logic then it makes Him no different than just a great religious thinker!

Both have Abraham as their father
Both go on pilgrimage mecca and Jerusalem.
Both believe in one God
Both have gone on crusades jihad.

mamaput:

Both have Abraham as their father
Both go on pilgrimage mecca and Jerusalem.
Both believe in one God
Both have gone on crusades jihad.

And? Conclusion? Christians do nt go on pilgrimage to jerusalem: Unlike islam, it is not a mandatory service to God. Pls read your bibles before making frivolous comments you know nothing about,

Jn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Do not forget there are also the laws of the church.
Were is it written that the only true book is the bible.
The bible was written by men.
Do you know that the 12 apostles were illiterates, They no go school.
That means someone wrote for them ,they went to writers.
The bible is edited . I do not want to know how many books are still hidden from us.
Life is more than only a bible.

Just what if at the end of a long Day, the bible is the biggest lie ever sold to us.?
Christians go to Jerusalem ,
by the way its not mandatory for muslims too but anyone that can afford it schold try to go.

and for a bible reader you are very rude your bible reading has brought you nothing.

Most people only know how to quote. Quoting is good ask me 5 min later what i said . i will not know.

and for a bible reader you are very rude your bible reading has brought you nothing.

Most people only know how to quote. Quoting is good ask me 5 min later what i said . i will not know.

Sorry that came across as rude.

However your earlier post had n backing, it was simply made up of the same one line arguments we've heard since we were 5 yrs old! Nothing new, we serve the same God, we all come from Abraham bla bla bla.
Just another reason why those who don't believe don' t want to believe and would never believe. Yes i quote not because i am stupid but because i let God's word do the talkin because on the last day that is what will matter and not how logically we have been able to dissect a book written by "illiterates". I don't remember the quran being written by "learned" men either.
I quote because the bible has written about such comments that the likes of you will make 2000 yrs down the line:

Jn 4:40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mamput,

Thanks for the points you made, but indeed you made some of them in ignorance (this is not being rude.)  I'll tackle them one at a time

Both have Abraham as their father

This is quite true to the extent that Abraham is the father of the Jews, that means Jesus (in His humanity) included; and also Mohammed being an Arab who descends from Ishameal whom the Bible declares will be a violent man as said in Genesis 16:10-14
10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count." 11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: "You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. 12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." 13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.[/color][color=#990000][color=#990000][/color]

Both go on pilgrimage mecca and Jerusalem.

This is not entirely true in the case of the christian as stated earlier by davidylan.  Christians are not required to visit Jerusalem, but are rather told to pray for it.  For Islam however, visiting mecca is one of the five pillars of their faith.  Every Moslem strives to fulfil these five requirements and visiting mecca is no exception.  The Christians only tenet is faith in the salvation work of Our Lord jesus Christ.

Both believe in one God

this is absolutely true, but we still need to point out that the one God we believe in are two different Beings.  Jehovah is not the same God as Allah.  Their personalities and statements over the years as written down in the Bible and Qu'ran proves without a doubt that they can never be the same Being.

Both have gone on crusades jihad.

This also is quite true within the context of history and our present everyday life.  However, you need to understand that while Jesus and His Apostles denounced every form of violence and all but John the Beloved died in the hands of men contrary to them, Islam on the other hand glorifies and encourages Jihad with reward in the after life for those who are killed during the Jihad.  Mohammed led by example in this regards also.

I too do not want to sound rude but i am roman K .
go to your local airportand find out how many Roman Catholic go to Jerusalem and Bethlehem. and now lets ague if catholics are Christians or not.
Even if they most not go they go.
my heart is not hardened i believe in god but i do not think i must use the bible to back up my believe.
They go they go you can see them go