where were they when the rest of the world were inventing things?
Even young men that are working hard to get even are not encouraged by most men around them
They will preach to us about tradition and culture;where has that taken us?
Culture of what?see how underdeveloped Nigeria is?
If our forefathers had not allowed themselves to be brainwashed like crazy,what man will sell his kin into slavery?
Mehn!

@Op What are you smoking?

james1: where were they when the rest of the world were inventing things?
Even young men that are working hard to get even are not encouraged by most men around them
They will preach to us about tradition and culture;where has that taken us?
Culture of what?see how underdeveloped Nigeria is?
If our forefathers had not allowed themselves to be brainwashed like crazy,what man will sell his kin into slavery?
Mehn!

I think you got it all wrong. China and Japan keeep and follow their tradition and culture and this is why they are very powerfull nations. China and Japan are not underdeveloped and have a very strong tradition and culture. Nigeria is underdeveloped because of corruption and mismanagement.

Horus,I feel you But don't you think corruption is not the only factor.
Technological know how is our greatest undoing.
If our forefathers had worked without allowing themselves to be used,9ja would have been better.

james1: where were they when the rest of the world were inventing things?
Even young men that are working hard to get even are not encouraged by most men around them
They will preach to us about tradition and culture;where has that taken us?
Culture of what?see how underdeveloped Nigeria is?
If our forefathers had not allowed themselves to be brainwashed like crazy,what man will sell his kin into slavery?
Mehn!

(culled)

Early European visitors never failed to be impressed with Benin City's grandeur and level of organization. Benin as it appears in documents of the seventeenth century was the natural reflection of centralized wealth as was its magnificent capital city Benin. Reports from the anonymous Dutchman D.R. (c. 1600) and David van Nyendael (some fifty years later) described Benin City as an extraordinarily extensive and flourishing city which easily matched the European metropolis of its time (Hodgkin 1960: 119-120; Ben-Amos 1995: 42ff).

The Portuguese compared it with Lisbon, the Dutch with Amsterdam or Antwerp, the Italians with Florence, and the Spaniards with Madrid (Kea 1971: 187). Its size was matched by dense habitation; houses built close to each other along long, straight streets. The royal palace, a city within the city, was also impressive, with countless squares and patios and innumerable doors and passageways, all richly decorated with the art that has made Benin famous. The city was orderly, well laid out, and sparkling clean so that the walls of the houses appeared polished (Dapper 1693: 122). ''The peoples' clothes; some are dressed in white, others in yellow, others in blue or green; and the city captains are regular judges who resolve lawsuits, debates and conflicts.''

Dutch sources have pointed out that the Oba (king) of Benin City could mobilize twenty thousand soldiers in a day, and raise an army of eighty thousand to one-hundred eighty thousand men. ''His authority stretches over many cities, towns, and villages. There is no King thereabouts who is in the possession of so many beautiful cities and towns, or is his equal'' (Dapper 1668).


http://wysinger.homestead.com/beninwarriors.html

According to human race scientists black race got a very low iQ.

Nah,the contrary is the case,dark skin people have very high IQ,higher than that of the aryans.
Something went wrong along the line that twisted the minds of our forefathers.am sure of that.

babsjnr: According to human race scientists black race got a very low iQ.

You mean, according to racist wastrels masquerading as scientists, NOT according to scientists.


Here's what REAL scientists will show you - that black Africans are the world's first and foremost CIVILIZERS.

[flash=980,690]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FciCAXYWx3s&feature=related[/flash]



HOW BLACK AFRICANS CIVILIZED EUROPE 12TH - 17TH CENTURIES



[flash=980,690]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW2zbozrPe4&feature=related[/flash]


[flash=980,690]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8y2HsZh8ZU[/flash]


[flash=980,690]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DKlauq-4TA[/flash]

On point,Rossikk.

Leo Africanus: Description of Timbuktu




''The name of this kingdom is a modern one, after a city which was built by a king named Mansa Suleyman in the year 610 of the hegira [1232 CE] around twelve miles from a branch of the Niger River.
The houses of Timbuktu are huts made of clay-covered wattles with thatched roofs. In the center of the city is a temple built of stone and mortar, built by an architect named Granata, and in addition there is a large palace, constructed by the same architect, where the king lives. The shops of the artisans, the merchants, and especially weavers of cotton cloth are very numerous. Fabrics are also imported from Europe to Timbuktu, borne by Berber merchants.

The women of the city maintain the custom of veiling their faces, except for the slaves who sell all the foodstuffs. The inhabitants are very rich, especially the strangers who have settled in the country; so much so that the current king has given two of his daughters in marriage to two brothers, both businessmen, on account of their wealth. There are many wells containing sweet water in Timbuktu; and in addition, when the Niger is in flood canals deliver the water to the city. Grain and animals are abundant, so that the consumption of milk and butter is considerable. But salt is in very short supply because it is carried here from Tegaza, some 500 miles from Timbuktu. I happened to be in this city at a time when a load of salt sold for eighty ducats. The king has a rich treasure of coins and gold ingots. One of these ingots weighs 970 pounds.

The royal court is magnificent and very well organized. When the king goes from one city to another with the people of his court, he rides a camel and the horses are led by hand by servants. If fighting becomes necessary, the servants mount the camels and all the soldiers mount on horseback. When someone wishes to speak to the king, he must kneel before him and bow down; but this is only required of those who have never before spoken to the king, or of ambassadors. The king has about 3,000 horsemen and infinity of foot-soldiers armed with bows made of wild fennel [?] which they use to shoot poisoned arrows. This king makes war only upon neighboring enemies and upon those who do not want to pay him tribute. When he has gained a victory, he has all of them--even the children--sold in the market at Timbuktu.

Only small, poor horses are born in this country. The merchants use them for their voyages and the courtiers to move about the city. But the good horses come from Barbary. They arrive in a caravan and, ten or twelve days later, they are led to the ruler, who takes as many as he likes and pays appropriately for them.

The king is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods. There are in Timbuktu numerous judges, teachers and priests, all properly appointed by the king. He greatly honors learning. Many hand-written books imported from Barbary are also sold. There is more profit made from this commerce than from all other merchandise.

Instead of coined money, pure gold nuggets are used; and for small purchases, cowrie shells which have been carried from Persia, and of which 400 equal a ducat. Six and two-thirds of their ducats equal one Roman gold ounce.

The people of Timbuktu are of a peaceful nature. They have a custom of almost continuously walking about the city in the evening (except for those that sell gold), between 10 PM and 1 AM, playing musical instruments and dancing. The citizens have at their service many slaves, both men and women.

The city is very much endangered by fire. At the time when I was there on my second voyage, half the city burned in the space of five hours. But the wind was violent and the inhabitants of the other half of the city began to move their belongings for fear that the other half would burn.

There are no gardens or orchards in the area surrounding Timbuktu.''


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/leo_afri.asp

Horus:
I think you got it all wrong. China and Japan keeep and follow their tradition and culture and this is why they are very powerfull nations. China and Japan are not underdeveloped and have a very strong tradition and culture. Nigeria is underdeveloped because of corruption and mismanagement.

China is very underdeveloped.

I dunno. To be fair, sub-saharan Africa has been relatively isolated from the center of action until pretty recently (1600 or so)?

But yes, the lack of advancement of our forebears certainly makes things more difficult today.

With that said, I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong/inferior with the black man. Any more than there is with say the indigenous people of America, South America, Australia, etc.

Given the same opportunities and upbringing, black folk can perform as well as anyone else. Or so I believe, anyway.

james1: where were they when the rest of the world were inventing things?
Even young men that are working hard to get even are not encouraged by most men around them
They will preach to us about tradition and culture;where has that taken us?
Culture of what?see how underdeveloped Nigeria is?
If our forefathers had not allowed themselves to be brainwashed like crazy,what man will sell his kin into slavery?
Mehn!

You are so terribly wrong. You apparently have no or little clue about history( African and others) and its Dynamics... I understand your frustrations about African's present state but it is just a phase- others were not always this 'advanced' and Africa was not always this 'underdeveloped'.

Plz try to read a little bit of history; SEARCH as much as possible whenever you have these fundamental questions

ekt_bear: I dunno. To be fair, sub-saharan Africa has been relatively isolated from the center of action until pretty recently (1600 or so)?

But yes, the lack of advancement of our forebears certainly makes things more difficult today.

'Lack of advancement...' HOW? Could you be more specific?

1. Writing
2. Guns and gunpowder
3. Printing press

And all sorts of stuff they had in Europe and Asia even at 1400AD which our ancestors did not have

ekt_bear: 1. Writing
2. Guns and gunpowder
3. Printing press

And all sorts of stuff they had in Europe and Asia even at 1400AD which our ancestors did not have

SO you thought some Africans were not writing? There were a functioning literate class throughout much of Sahel Africa from around the 9th century AD, in Swahili East African coast from around 11th century AD, in Ethiopia and Nubia for more than 2000 years, in parts of the Sahara from the 1st millennium AD etc. Africans had more independently originated writing systems(Ancient Egyptian, Meriotic, Old Nubian, Bamun, Tifinagh, Nsibidi, Vai and other adaptation of other original writing systems) than Europe for instance; as a matter of fact, I am not aware of any writing system that was ever used in Europe that originated in Europe itself.

Guns/gunpowder and printing press were in deed invented in Asia(China and Korea) and got to Europe before it came to Africa , though crucially was put to better use there than in Asia and of course in Africa. However, I know that a few African nations were using guns almost as early(1400AD-1600AD) in Kanem-Borno, some Hausa state and Benin. You are right though with your your assertions on Printing press- I think that the earliest in Africa was from court of the 'genius' King Njoya of Bamun(I am not sure again if it was independently inverted by this remarkable king's court to print books written in a language that he himself invented though the casting of the press was done there) but even that happened in the 20th century.

BS man

Writing, guns and the printing press had absolutely no impact on my ancestors as of say 1500AD.

I don't know why you are bringing up sh1t from Swahili East Africa or whatever..are we talking about the ancestors of Nigerians or even West Africans, or some random obscure group who made no impact somewhere else on the continent?

FWIW, if you are one of those people who believes that our ancestors had all the same things available to him as some white dude's ancestors, then how do you square this belief with the current very bad shape of the black man? Doesn't this suggest gross incompetence on the part of our ancestors? And moreover, does it not suggest a quite dismal future?

I don't know why you guys are obsessed with holding onto this idea, which is not only wrong, but makes us look worse than we actually are.

james1: where were they when the rest of the world were inventing things?
Even young men that are working hard to get even are not encouraged by most men around them
They will preach to us about tradition and culture;where has that taken us?
Culture of what?see how underdeveloped Nigeria is?
If our forefathers had not allowed themselves to be brainwashed like crazy,what man will sell his kin into slavery?
Mehn!

I believe there is an element of truth to what you have there. It is definitely obvious to those who are learned and able to discern the world around them that cultures that have REFUSED to change with the times(and I am not talking of complete abandonment of beliefs and ideals that have served us well) remain underdeveloped and struggling to catch up. I mean we have so many prime examples even outside of Africa to study.

Even if our forefathers fumbled we have done more harm with the values we uphold and cultures we are practising currently. . . It is no secret that we no longer place emphasis on hardwork and getting tasks done again . . . All we want now is certificate, money and produce more of ourselves in a bid to belong . . . There is hardly any reward for getting things done again. Come to think of this, do we really expect our forefathers to re-invent the wheel, civilsation took ages to evolve, so we shouldn't be blaming them.

james1: where were they when the rest of the world were inventing things?
Even young men that are working hard to get even are not encouraged by most men around them
They will preach to us about tradition and culture;where has that taken us?
Culture of what?see how underdeveloped Nigeria is?
If our forefathers had not allowed themselves to be brainwashed like crazy,what man will sell his kin into slavery?
Mehn!

i think u should be focusing on yourself and what you have been able to achieve instead whining about your 'forefathers' because 100 or 200 years from now, ur children are going to be asking the same questions about you. i really don't see u negroes doing anything apart from either whining about the past or living off its glory.

sheyguy: Even if our forefathers fumbled we have done more harm with the values we uphold and cultures we are practising currently. . . It is no secret that we no longer place emphasis on hardwork and getting tasks done again . . . All we want now is certificate, money and produce more of ourselves in a bid to belong . . . There is hardly any reward for getting things done again. Come to think of this, do we really expect our forefathers to re-invent the wheel, civilsation took ages to evolve, so we shouldn't be blaming them.

Do we ever ask ourselves the basic questions which is what values do we really speak of when we claim to uphold values . . . Of what values have these values been to us as a society, as a nation, and an economy? Seriously, have you ever tried listing out those values so you can be sure there are really VALUES to be upheld?

YOur forefathers did not need to re-invent the wheels. No, they simply needed to use the already existing wheels to their advantage, again, something that never did happen.

There is no way they could have easily 're-used' the wheel. The wheel(Civilisation), without substantial amount of formal education, was hard to create unlike our own time where education is virtually a culture and where we have seemless communication with the rest of the world. . . All i am saying is our forefather are more pardonable compared to our generation.

Black Africa was cut off from other cultures and climes. While Wester Europe and Asia interacted,exchanged and advanced in technology and science,black Africa was not involved. Our ancestors should not be blamed for missing out. Until Europeans made crude ships that could sail the oceans their lives were not that different from ours.

sheyguy: There is no way they could have easily 're-used' the wheel. The wheel(Civilisation), without substantial amount of formal education, was hard to create unlike our own time where education is virtually a culture and where we have seemless communication with the rest of the world. . . All i am saying is our forefather are more pardonable compared to our generation.

So, you are saying that in, 1600AD, there was no way for our forefathers to have, maybe copied some of the almost 2000 year old greek/roman ideas? I mean the Romans had basic systems like water supply, underground drainage, Road construction etc figured out in about 200 BC. And you are saying that even after more than 1000 years, there was absolutely no way the forefathers in Africa could have learned of this and maybe implemented some of these solutions right in Nigeria?
I am just trying to get an idea of where you are coming from with this.

bokohalal: Black Africa was cut off from other cultures and climes. While Wester Europe and Asia interacted,exchanged and advanced in technology and science,black Africa was not involved. Our ancestors should not be blamed for missing out. Until Europeans made crude ships that could sail the oceans their lives were not that different from ours.

How was black Africa "cut off" from other cultures and climes? Please explain to us how.

Trade and exchange of ideas was basically between Western Europe and Asia. Vasco da Gama's effort was basically to find a sea route to Asia because of Arabs in the middle who were disrupting trade to that part of the world.
It was not until the 18th century that Europeans started coming into Africa.

bokohalal: Trade and exchange of ideas was basically between Western Europe and Asia. Vasco da Gama's effort was basically to find a sea route to Asia because of Arabs in the middle who were disrupting trade to that part of the world.
It was not until the 18th century that Europeans started coming into Africa.

Let's pretend you are right. So since the 18th century, all of Africa remains unable to adopt these "wheels"?

My ancestors in Ijebu land achieved a lot - and I'm sure people from the Benin Empire, Oyo Empire, Songhay Empire, and Mali Empire will disagree with your assertion... Songhay built a University in Timbuktu, when Europeans were experiencing the dark ages, and they had pen, paper, and text books... The same Timbuktu Europeans are so fascinated by!

We might look alike but we're different, my ancestors achieved a lot, if yours never achieved any - and I'm proud of my ancestors... And just like every empire, they crumbled, and others took over from where they left off...

But what have you achieved? - I bet you still go around bowing down to white gods, yet blaming your ancestors for non-achievements, no? How ironic!!!

Kobojunkie:

Let's pretend you are right. So since the 18th century, all of Africa remains unable to adopt these "wheels"?

I think we have. Life is certainly better now. And many people of African heritage are helping in improving society everyday in science and technology and ideas. If only the 'meeting'of cultures was earlier.

Kobojunkie:

So, you are saying that in, 1600AD, there was no way for our forefathers to have, maybe copied some of the almost 2000 year old greek/roman ideas?

It would've been utterly impossible for any Nigerian group to have knowledge of Roman and Greek technology in the 17th century. In fact, in this time period, the Europeans themselves were re-discovering these long-lost ideas.

Kobojunkie:
I mean the Romans had basic systems like water supply, underground drainage, Road construction etc figured out in about 200 BC. And you are saying that even after more than 1000 years, there was absolutely no way the forefathers in Africa could have learned of this and maybe implemented some of these solutions right in Nigeria?
I am just trying to get an idea of where you are coming from with this.

When analayzing these things, you must consider the situations in which these individual civilizations developed and formed. The factors that drove the Romans to conquer the Mediterranean basin were not the same that drove the Asanti to unite. When talking about things like this, you need to consider geography, history, climate, and etc.

Just to let you know, Africans had irrigation and roads prior to the advent of Westerners.

Kobojunkie:

How was black Africa "cut off" from other cultures and climes? Please explain to us how.

The Sahara made it very difficult (and nearly impossible) to travel northward. The last great pre-European flow of ideas into sub-Saharan Africa was brought about by the Arabs who brought Islam (and some of the technological advances of the Islamic world) into the Saharan region. Other than that, sub-Sharan Africa has been relatively isolated from the rest of the world for thousands of years.

Only East and North Africa had any real contact with the outside world.