I'd like us to talk about The Law Of Karma. It says you'll reap what you sow.
I believe in it. I believe you'll definitely reap what you sow. _{Whether you like it or not.} 

Does this apply to those who are born again? For instance, you did so many wrong things before you got to know Jesus. Would the mistakes you made in the past still haunt you?

The Bible says "if any man be in Christ, he's a new creation, old things are passed away, behold all things are become new." It therefore means the law of Karma doesn't hold water anymore concerning those who are born again, yet people still argue and say what you've sowed you must reap whether you're born again or not.

What do you have to say?                         

I don't. I believe in the laws of work and luck.

The law of works and luck?

The law of work states that you'll reap what you work hard for.

The law of luck states that sometimes you'll reap what you didn't plant!

I see.

well i diffinately believe in Karma.
But wud up wit the law of work and watever.

I know

Karma is real

So , do unto others what you want them to do unto you

Always tried to do the right thing

Here's what I think as a Christian:

There are several definitions of Karma:

In Hinduism and Bhuddism, it is the idea that an individual's actions determine his fate in each successive existence (re-incarnation). As this Gnosis weblink article says: "Everything good or bad that we have done in any of our lives will bring good or bad consequences for this or coming existences."

Further examples in clicking this link.

I don't think the Law of Karma applies in Christianity, even though certain elements seem to be juxtaposed. Karma in philosophical thought and other religions is rigid and no one escapes it - you cannot break the circle of re-incarnation, whereby one has to come back to earth in any number of things to make up for previous losses. Whereas in Christ, forgiveness is a very powerful resource for the believer which changes the destiny and life of those who repent and come to Jesus by faith.

This does not mean that our lives are not affected by our choices when we become Christians. Gal. 6:7 clearly says that people will reap whatever they sow, because God cannot be mocked. When a person abuses the grace of Christ, he/she mocks God.

The Law of Karma presupposes many existences before someone can attain to perfection through re-incarnation. On the other hand, Christianity is based on only one existence in this life and the fact that God sees every Christian as accepted and perfected through Christ's own perfection (Heb. 10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

We all shall be held accountable for our choices and what we do in this life (Christianity); not by the events of a previous life/existence (karma and re-incarnation). Bad choices people made before becoming Christians will affect their lives to the degree of the damage involved. An accident, obesity by bad eating habits, looting and stealing (corrected by restitution), injuries to others, are some realities that people face up with even after having become Christians; and bad debts don't simply go away by faith if people made reckless financial choices. However, none of these things will deny anyone the joy of heaven if they came in true repentance; for in God's presence there is perfect restoration.

The law of Karma is intricately tied to re-incarnation, and this is quite a different thing taught in the Bible. There is only one existence, no previous one, and our choices today affect our eternal destinies when Christ returns at a one time event.

This does not mean that our lives are not affected by our choices when we become Christians. Gal. 6:7 clearly says that people will reap whatever they sow, because God cannot be mocked. When a person abuses the grace of Christ, he/she mocks God.

So what happens when the grace of christ or/and God is mocked or taken for granted?The law of Karma kicks in,or the culprit gets forgiven all over again if he/she pleads(again) repentance?

However, none of these things will deny anyone the joy of heaven if they came in true repentance; for in God's presence there is perfect restoration.

How does "multiple repentance" affect the grace,by the way?A lot of christians do it.They see the 'grace' as the perfect immunity against 'karma',and various churches seem to encourage this grace flounting with their doctrines.
So,what gives?Will multiple repentance guarantee the joy of heaven?Sin during the day,repent before going to bed,7 days a week,the whole month?

i dont

jagunlabi:

So what happens when the grace of christ or/and God is mocked or taken for granted?The law of Karma kicks in,or the culprit gets forgiven all over again if he/she pleads(again) repentance?

The Law of Karma does not kick in, because it does not operate in the Christian faith in the first place. Karma is tied to re-incarnation, and I've discussed what this means in another thread, showing there the reasons why the Bible cannot be used to justify belief in re-incarnation.

When a believer sins, God gives warnings aimed at bringing such a person back to His love - either through exhortations (Heb. 3:13) or through  chastisement (Heb. 12:5). The result is forgiveness, cleaning, and restoration to fellowship with Him where such a person repents (I John 1:7 & 9).

If, however, such a person is decidedly mocking God, the Bible is firm on this: "How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:29).

jagunlabi:

How does "multiple repentance" affect the grace,by the way?A lot of christians do it.They see the 'grace' as the perfect immunity against 'karma',and various churches seem to encourage this grace flounting with their doctrines.
So,what gives?Will multiple repentance guarantee the joy of heaven?Sin during the day,repent before going to bed,7 days a week,the whole month?

I understand your concerns. However, what you decry is actually not taught in the Bible; so you have a point - there is no "multiple repentance" in the Christian faith. Rather, people come to Jesus by a one time act of repentance and faith. This is underscored by the following verses:

"For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death." (2 Cor. 7:10)  "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Rom 6:1-2).

However, Christians also can sin if they are not careful in their living nor depending on the power of the Holy Spirit. There is a sin leading to death (that which is committed in abject disregard to God's authority and power) as well as a sin not leading to death (see I John 5:16-17 - "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death".

A true Christian is marked by a hunger to live godly and righteously. One who loves to sin even with a claim to being Christian is doubtfully one. Like I said earlier, a believer has Jesus as his/her propitiation; but the Christian life is not about sinning and repenting 7 days a week the whole month.

But the bible says whatever you sow, you'll reap.

Yes, indeed. But that is not the same thing as the Law of Karma. The latter is unchangeable - whatever anyone sows, they will reap by way of being re-incarnated as many times as is necessary to correct their mishap; whether they come in their next life as a tree, a bird, a worm, or a lizard. There's just no way out of karma: it is rigid and does not abate until one has gone through the full circle.

However, Gal. 6:7 ties in with a warning at those who mock God. It does not say that a sinner who has sown so much evil before he/she accepted Christ cannot be forgiven and given a new life. But if one claims to belong to God and then lives carelessly to mock God's grace, such a person will reap God's judgement. There's no need to reap judgement when grace is available and plentiful in Christ.

law of karma is simple and effective. what goes around comes around. has a matter of fact that's nature.

Appreciated.

karma is a bitch

I believe in Karma. I also believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I don't think that Karma is at odds w/ Christian beliefs.

God is full of Grace. For this reason, all people are not "punished" (to the Nth degree) for their actions. But any person who acts b/c they do not believe that "you reap what you sow" or that "Karma is real" is tempting GOD.
Isn't that a mockery?

Karma karma ! whether we like it or not ! whether you are a muslim or not ! whether you are a pagan or atheist, WHATEVER you sow will you reap !
David in the bible seek forgiveness, he actually repented. he was forgiven yet, he got punished ! Samson seek the face of God at the point of death. God listened to him yet, he paid for his sins.
whatever you sow, you shall reap which brings us very close to the KARMA.

If you work hard, you are going to get the fruits of your work ! if you are otherwise, you are going to reap it ! you dont just get lucky, being lucky is as a result of what you have done initially.

whether you like it or not, the law of karma holds lot of water cos what you sow shall you reap !

cheers

I appreciate everyone's responses - we all have a right to our differing views. However, sometimes we believe something so strongly because we probably haven't taken the time to chek out what it really means. Gal. 6:7-9 does not teach karma, because 'karma' is not 'karma' once you divorce it from re-incarnation, and that's clearly at odds with Christian beliefs. If God's grace does not punish people to the Nth degree, that's no longer karma. 'Grace' and 'karma' are not relatives or cousins. When someone mocks God, (s)he will reap for their mockery. But if we're talking about karma, what about godly people who suffer - what are they reaping? Did karma apply in the case of the man in John 9 that was born blind?

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him,
saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered,
Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest
in him. - [John 9:1-3].

Where is the law of karma there?

@mickplus,
Please could you be specific with your examples? If God listened to Samson and still allowed him to pay for his sins, what kind of 'God' is that? Read the text well and see what transpired. If I'm not getting you, perhaps you need to be specific. Those who mock God will reap whatever they sow - that's used for those mocking God. Does that say that believers will still have to pay for their past sins that they have sown? Karma will take you way back to what you have forgotten, and there's nothing like "old things are passed away, all things have become new" in karma.

If we know what karma really is, we would understand that it is not the same thing as what the Bible teaches. But there again, we are all free to be persuaded by our convictions.

'David in the bible seek forgiveness, he actually repented. he was forgiven yet, he got punished ! Samson seek the face of God at the point of death. God listened to him yet, he paid for his sins"


will like to chip in sumtin here. David and Samson were nt born again and dt was d old dispensation. it was later Jesus Christ came to die for our sins and anybody who believes in him and accepts him will be forgiven of his sins by God. cos jesus knew no sin yet he became sin for our sakes hence we shld sin no longer cos he has paid d price.
but anybody who mocks God will be purnished. d christian nature doesnt tend towards sin but towards righteosness. hence if anyman be in christ old tins av passed away,behold all tins are new. and he is a new creation,
theres nothin like karma in christianity. we have a God dt judges our actions

chinani:

I believe in Karma. I also believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I don't think that Karma is at odds w/ Christian beliefs.

God is full of Grace. For this reason, all people are not "punished" (to the Nth degree) for their actions. But any person who acts b/c they do not believe that "you reap what you sow" or that "Karma is real" is tempting GOD.
Isn't that a mockery?

it seems you're not getting it. or probably this is your own view on it. The term and definition 'Karma' comes from a seperate religion (Buddhaism and Hinduism) and is applicable ONLY in that religion. Christianity on the other hand is a seperate religion and shouldn't be merged with another. true, other religions hold certain views that are similar to the one in Christianity, but then it is not applicable in Christianity. Karma talks about multiple after-lifes where consequences for every action done in the previous life are acted out in the after.there's a continous cycle of being 'reborn' till one passes into a state of perfectness called 'nirvana'. not so with Christianity. you live this life and your actions whether in Christ or not determines where you'll be in the great beyond.

i'll send in more info concerning the matter

gbade. x:

Karma talks about multiple after-lifes where consequences for every action done in the previous life are acted out in the after. there's a continous cycle of being 'reborn' till one passes into a state of perfectness called 'nirvana'. not so with Christianity. you live this life and your actions whether in Christ or not determines where you'll be in the great beyond.

@gbade. x, thank you so very much for straightening things out for me. That's just the point I was missing out and trying to explain in my replies.

pls y'all see this link for more clarification on what karma is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

I am a christian and I believe in the natural Law of Karma which otherwise is also known as the Law of sowing and reaping or the Law of reciprocal action. I also believe in re-incarnation as a fact of life. In saying this therefore, I must state that this is as a result of my own personal conviction and experiencing.

syrup:

, whether they come in their next life as a tree, a bird, a worm, or a lizard. There's just no way out of karma: it is rigid and does not abate until one has gone through the full circle.

The above is a wrong understanding of re-incarnation. A human spirit cannot be re-incarnated as anything else but a human spirit. Any opinion contrary to this is wrong.

The Law of Karma says that whatsoever a man sows that shall he reap. The statment in Gal 6:7 did not say "may" or "might". It says "shall". which means it must come to pass. However, there is forgiveness in the Law of Karma and this lies in the state of the individual when its time for him to harvest that(good or bad) which he has sown. Let me paint a little picture b4 us. If for instance, a man got himself drunk and got into his car and drove off carelessly onto the road and few minutes later got involved in a ghastly road accident that claimed the life of "innocent" people as a result of his drunkenness and careless driving. If when the time for this man to reap this evil act is ripe and this man is no longer a drunk and his attitude has changed completely not merely in the outward or physical sense but also in the spiritual sense, depending on his state, the returning karma can have a different effect in many varied forms of say escaping unhurt in a ghastly motor accident or being around at such a scene to help save the life of those who are involved in an accident or instead of losing his life in such an accident, he loses maybe a limb or an arm. This is called symbolic redemption. I cannot describe everything here but I believe I have given the general idea.

Coming to re-incarnation, the teaching itself was expunged from the scriptures in 553AD in the second council of constatinople. The first sentence from the council's reolution reads, "If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema." The Anathemas not only suppressed the early Christian teachings within the Church, but also any teaching supportive of views on the pre-existence of the soul. Anyone publicly espousing such beliefs could be reprimanded, and, if he persisted, excommunicated from the Church.

Reincarnation was suppressed by the church (or the emperor Justinian) in order to increase the power and influence of the church. The texts that offered the greatest acceptance of Roman Pagan doctrine were made part of biblical canon; those that tended to reduce the influence of the church and were offensive to Roman Pagans were declared as heresy. After Constantine's Edict of Milan in AD 313, which made Christianity a tolerated religion, Christianity became tainted with elements of Roman Paganism. Reincarnation was offensive to Roman Pagans, as were other early Christian concepts. The Roman church began to select acceptable doctrines based in part on what would cause the church (and its leaders) to have the greatest influence in society. If someone believed that they had multiple lifetimes to gain favor with God, they might not be as inclined to obey the church teachings, or to serve the church leaders. On the other hand, if people could be convinced that they had but one lifetime to "get it right", and that eternal punishment in hell awaited those who failed to heed the teachings of the church, they would be more inclined to do whatever the church leaders expected of them, including supporting the church financially. It therefore would not come as any surprise that a church that had strayed from the original teachings of Jesus would emphasize doctrines that increased the amount of control that the church had over its members.

But the early church did not succeed completely as there are still accounts in the Bible that suggests the existence of reincarnation. In John 9:1-3, the disciples observe a man who was born blind, and inquire of Jesus whether the man himself or his parents sinned, that he was born blind.  Jesus replies that in this case neither the man nor his parents sinned, but he does not rebuke the disciples in any way for their belief that it would have been possible for the man to sin prior to birth. Upon the Mount of Transfiguration, Christ said, "Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed… Then the disciples understood that He spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:12,13). Note that the understanding of the disciples may be wrong and also in that passage in the Bible, the statement was put in parenthesis to show that that part is the opinion of the disciples, But the idea is that for such a dialogue to even take place between Jesus and the Disciples suggests the existence of re-incarnation. I believe the Lord Christ would have rebuked the disciples immediately if their belief, as contained in the questions and answers, was wrong. Even Christ himself asked the disciples. "who do people say that Iam?". We know the responses. If it is not possible for souls to re-inarnate, Christ would have used any of these opportunities to say so.

The verse most commonly used to refute reincarnation is Hebrews 9:27, which states that it is appointed to man to die once, and after that face judgment. This verse, considering the debate over the writer of the book of Hebrews is only a problem when one believes that no errors exist in the Bible. It is possible  that the writer of Hebrews was expressing a personal belief, much as a pastor over a group of churches might today write personal beliefs to the congregation in his church. The author of Hebrews, whoever it may have been, may never have intended for his thoughts to be preached as ultimate truth for centuries to come. Hebrews is different from most other New Testament books (in part because it was directed towards Jewish Christians throughout the Roman Empire rather than those living in Palestine).

But let us leave the Bible alone and ponder on our own. If we believe in the perfection and unbending Justice of the Almighty and we were told we were all created equal. How come some are born in pleasant circumstances or as we saywith "silver spoon in thier mouth" while other people are born in ghettos to suffer? Why should someone be born blind from birth if we are all created equal? And so many other forms of "injustices" that we suffer today. Does that suggest that the almighty is unjust? ofcourse No. The answer lies in Re-incarnation of which I cannot exhaust everything in this forum. I only urge each and everyone to make his own personal effort to weigh and examine the issues objectively himself and take whatever conclusion he/she arrives at(for or against).
The above represents my own personal opinion and conviction on the topic.

and your point is?

from wiseguy:

I am a christian and I believe in the natural Law of Karma which otherwise is also known as the Law of sowing and reaping or the Law of reciprocal action. I also believe in re-incarnation as a fact of life. In saying this therefore, I must state that this is as a result of my own personal conviction and experiencing.

The Law of Karma is UnChristian as it does not apply to a Christian, just like i stated earlier. please take care to read my posts and holla back. re-incarnation cannot be a fact of life because we die and face Judgement Day. se finni.


Once again, see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

And please will you people stop posting manuscripts !!!! it really gets on my nerves. we can all summarise our replies.

@gbade.X

I do not intend to enter into any form of argument on this. What I posted was my personal opinion and I explicitly stated it. I do not mandate you like the "PDP" to support or believe it. Whether you believe in re-incarnation or not is not my cup of tea . I do not care. And that you do not believe it does not make it untrue. Someone was once killed because he said the earth is round contrary to the belief held then only to be discovered after his death that he was right.

gbade. x:

And please will you people stop posting manuscripts !!!! it really gets on my nerves. we can all summarise our replies.

I am very sure I did not send my "manuscript" to your inbox. I sent it to nairaland and you have the liberty to read, glance over or ignore it. Good a thing, we have an admin in the forum who can decide to remove any improper post if he so chose.

hey,hey don't get all mad. i was just trying to clear up some stuff concerning Karma. you know, let you see the FACT about Karma and not an opinion. neither did i want to get arguementative. once again, see the link provided. apart from this, the definition of Karma it self is not an opinion. that's why i provided the link. gives more insight.

wiseguy:

@gbade.X

. Someone was once killed because he said the earth is round contrary to the belief held then only to be discovered after his death that he was right.

and what do you mean by this? . . .i thought you said your views on Karma was an opinion. what is stated above was a fact

I'm not mad at all. Truly I'm not. You know I am the kind of person that takes a personal objective view of issues rathr than believe something because Mr. X says it is so and that is why I have emphasised that what I posted was my opinion in order to dissuade any reader into just swallowing it without making the effort to arrive at a personal conclusion about the issue.

gbade. x:

i thought you said your views on Karma was an opinion. what is stated above was a fact

It was not an opinion but my opinion which I consider a FACT but in upholding that I do not wish to force my recognition down the throat of anyone but would want each individual to come to his or her own acceptable recognition not because I said so but because he/she has taken a further step to seek for the truth and has come to an acceptable conclusion. Whether it is in accord with my own conviction is not important. What is important is that this individual has exercised his free will and is thus responsible for it.

wiseguy:

syrup link=topic=11781.msg344520#msg344520 date=1147113403:

whether they come in their next life as a tree, a bird, a worm, or a lizard. There's just no way out of karma: it is rigid and does not abate until one has gone through the full circle.

The above is a wrong understanding of re-incarnation. A human spirit cannot be re-incarnated as anything else but a human spirit. Any opinion contrary to this is wrong.

That may well be. You may like to check this weblink about people who claim to have animal memories of past life. Since the Law of karma does not affect the Christian life, the article you posted are assumptions based on the writer's views and not what the Bible teaches. You may wish to see the Biblical texts the author of your article quoted for yourself - there you'll realise that he's trying to force interpretations that have no bearing on the whole tenor of Scripture. I've tried to point this out in another thread which you can access here.

wiseguy:

I believe the Lord Christ would have rebuked the disciples immediately if their belief, as contained in the questions and answers, was wrong. Even Christ himself asked the disciples. "who do people say that Iam?". We know the responses. If it is not possible for souls to re-inarnate, Christ would have used any of these opportunities to say so.

Important questions to address:

# If Jesus was referring to or endorsing the concept of re-incarnation in the answers His disciples
gave to His questions in Matt. 16:13-16, which one of the prophets was He a re-incarnation of
as suggested in the opinions of the crowd?

# If Christ endorsed re-incarnation, why then did He not speak of people being re-born so many times
to correct their mishaps and attain to nirvana, rather than a one time judgement without a second
afterlife of correcting past mistakes? See Luke 13:1-5.

# So, was Christ or any of the disciples re-incarnated beings?

You may see the Law of karma and re-incarnation in the Bible, and you're free to read them so. At the end of the day, you'll find that God's grace in Christ doesn't mix with karma and re-incarnation.

I say no to Karma and Christianity. Jesus Christ and Buddha will not sit at the same table.

Yes man is born in sin. One might live a life of sin and disobedience against God, but at the time of repentance, God cleanses his past and gives him a new start in life. Old things are passed away and all things are become new. God forgives sin, forgives the past and one is made free from the guilt of past sin and its consequences.

@wiseguy

In John 9:1-3, the disciples observe a man who was born blind, and inquire of Jesus whether the man himself or his parents sinned, that he was born blind.  Jesus replies that in this case neither the man nor his parents sinned, but he does not rebuke the disciples in any way for their belief that it would have been possible for the man to sin prior to birth.

Note also that Christ did not sanction "such a belief", if really you would like to conclude that the disciples were supposing re-incarnation from their own question.

Upon the Mount of Transfiguration, Christ said, "Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed… Then the disciples understood that He spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:12,13). Note that the understanding of the disciples may be wrong and also in that passage in the Bible, the statement was put in parenthesis to show that that part is the opinion of the disciples,  But the idea is that for such a dialogue to even take place between Jesus and the Disciples suggests the existence of re-incarnation. I believe the Lord Christ would have rebuked the disciples immediately if their belief, as contained in the questions and answers, was wrong. Even Christ himself asked the disciples. "who do people say that Iam?". We know the responses. If it is not possible for souls to re-inarnate, Christ would have used any of these opportunities to say so.

Take a look at Luke chapter 1, where the birth of John the Baptist is announced to his father.

Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Lu 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Lu 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

In simple terms, John the Baptist was to have the same passions, zeal for the things of God, similar ministry,, that John would be used of God mightily just like Elijah was used in his time,did and does, not meaning that John the Baptist was to be an Elijah re-incarnate. Even in our world today, you might find some people who have a lot of similarities(events in their lives) with other people before/after them, that doesnt mean that one is a re-incarnate of the other. Apart from those verses from which you forcefully draw out the re-incarnation subject, Christ never taught about it, He didnt endorse it, neither was it an issue even in the time of the disciples.

Lu 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.a

and here too,

Even Christ himself asked the disciples. "who do people say that Iam?"

Christ is in no way suggesting the possibility of re-incarnation. If He was suggesting it, then we could say he was the re-incarnate of somebody else, therefore, there is no Christ, which is totally wrong. He was more of asking his disciples of the perception of people about Him(Jesus). A whole lot of prophets have come and gone before Jesus came around, and twas the tendency to associate a new prophet with an old one/one of the old ones, and as a result totally miss out on the message the new prophet brings, as well as muddle up what the old one said. (Note, my classification of some as old/new prophets is mainly becoz many lived at different times). Also note what happened in Acts 5, where the Saduccees had to meet together to discuss on the signs and wonders the apostles performed. Read v34-37, where the had to recount different people that performed miracles, etc What I'm saying is that there was the tendency in the people to associate Jesus with someone in the past, and that was what Jesus wanted to know from his disciples, and such a tendency is normal since we are humans.
ex: in the next 100years, if there were to be another computer wizzard, he/she would be associated with Bill Gates, isnt it.

syrup said it right

God's grace in Christ doesn't mix with karma and re-incarnation.

You dont have to believe in law of Karma before it comes to you. It is so real, so natural and so Nemetic. You cant just help it, what you give is what you get (GiGo) and what goes around comes around. its automated and once again its nobody's doing but natures.